Official Browns QB Prospect Discussion!
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Well sure, Shep, I understand what you're saying. And yes that makes sense only, and let me repeat only, if Mariota is that guy.. If we are looking at Andrew Luck or John Elway or even the accident prone RG 3. Unfortunately nobody is saying that, not the coaching staff not the prognosticators not the scouts. This guy is seen as a pretty darn good prospect, but not great. Another variable your scenario hinges on is these free agents with such a lot of gas and great attitude in their tanks that would jump ship to come to Cleveland for an above average salary. Yep we could probably get some if we pay twice what their worth. They don't have the long term upside that a rookie has and put un warranted strain on the salary cap.. Oftentimes I see free agents coming in to get paid for the years they think they've been cheated out of. A lot of times these guys don't show the fire and ability that got them to that point. They call that the Peter Principle. Kind of. I would rather build a team strong enough to win a Superbowl with Hoyer or Campbell or even McCarran at the helm. I think that makes you a better team and it gives you a better chance to win for a longer time especially in this league where quarterbacks are expected to spend at least a part of every season in the hospital.
WSS
I would rather build a team strong enough to win a Superbowl with Hoyer or Campbell
There's a problem with the whole "let's roll with Hoyer or Campbell" argument... We've heard it before. Remember rolling with Holcolm, Frye, Anderson, Quinn, McCoy, Weeden... because they showed some promise...
We haven't drafted a QB in the top 16 picks since '99 when we took Couch. QB play has been the reason we have or haven't been a competitive team. It's simple, we MUST do whatever it takes to get a franchise guy. I don't care who it is... we need a great one...
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http://touch.orlandosentinel.com/#story/os-top-10-qbs-2014-nfl-draft-20131022/
I don't know if anybody has posted this or not but as to your comment new 23 sure, I remember all those guys and plenty more. I don't think those guys had nearly as much to do with the teams never ending failure as the constant changing of the guard. How many coaches how many offensive schemes how many coordinators and how long does anyone have to get any kind of traction here on Eries shining shores?
Because the fans have tunnel vision there is a tendency to think the team has been losing for well over a decade because of the quarterback.
Trent Filter led his team to a Superbowl win. Is dad because he's a perfect physical specimen or an outstanding college prospect or a superhuman athlete? Probably not. Most likely the Ravens were good enough to win with an average quarterback.
There really aren't too many game changing quarterbacks anywhere. This is not the end be a work one player makes a huge difference. I think if Ben Roethlisberger had gone to a team in disarray he'd have had no more success than Brady Quinn. (or any other quarterback you want to name you never seemed to reach his full potential.)
WSS
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I think it is going to be very expensive to move up.
First, we had a team drop 3 1st rounders to move up for a QB last year. Like it or not, that might be a new benchmark.
Second, with the new rookie cap in place, I don't think the old draft value chart is accurate any longer. The money being paid to top picks had to factor in to how much a team would pay to move up.
Third, there is going to be significant interest in moving up for Clowney, which even though he is a different player is going to put added stress on the price paid to move up. The more teams you have seeking a better draft slot, the more expensive it becomes.
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Some good points, but...
1. Trent Dilfer was literally 14 years ago. We're in leap time and it's a different era. Since then, the Super Bowl has been about Brady, Manning, Manning, Favre, Warner, Roethlisberger, Brees, and Rodgers... a lot of future HOFers. And we went five years where the 10 teams had an average rank of 23rd in rushing, including 3 ranked dead LAST.
2. There is not a Super Bowl team with Jason Campbell at QB. Or Ryan Fitzpatrick. Brian Hoyer? We may never know if he could be some hybrid of Brees and Brady because he turns 29 next year coming off major knee surgery. If he'd started for us at 25 and shown those three good games, I'd feel differently.
The best teams have the best quarterbacks. If not all season (those are usually the 12 in the playoffs) then at least uber hot in the playoffs, like Flacco or Eli. Been that way for a very long time now.
3. I really believe you're behind the curve on Mariota. Matt Miller (NFLN and BR) says Bridgewater is his 2nd rated QB of the past five years and Mariota is 3rd (both behind only Luck). And if either has a bullet, it's Mariota. He's a freak athlete but becoming a truly elite passer. As someone on the national level said, you can get blown away by the measurables (legit 4.4, faster than RG3, as fast as Vick ever was), or the stats (500 yards rushing, 65% completion, sick 20/0 ratio)... but more than anything, just watch him play. He has elite arm talent and accuracy. He's smart. He makes great decisions.
Have we seen a guy that tall, that fast/quick, with that much arm talent come into the league lately? No. Which is why he's giving a legit #1 overall like Bridgewater (and he's damn near perfect) such a run. Those two would be in the running for #1 overall in just about any draft of the past decade.
4. Having a franchise quarterback is the keys to the kingdom. Without one, you can do a lot of other things right (like have the best back and best pass rusher, like the Vikings, or 6 Pro Bowlers like the Chiefs) but it doesn't really matter very much. The best teams have the best quarterbacks. The top of the Passer Ratings and the playoff lineup are roughly the same with an outlier here and there. This administration gets it: The Browns need an elite QB, one that wins game for them. Not one that just avoids stepping on his own cock.
By the way, Alex Smith is going to have to play better or the Chiefs will lose to better teams than Cleveland... and Cleveland could've won that game. Bess catches the punt on the run, the Browns tie it with 3:30 left and have a very good chance of winning it in overtime. Smith isn't even playing like Smith, one of the most accurate game managers in football the past two years.
5. The Browns have a lot of talent. The line has played great whenever Weeden's out and we still get Pinkston back. Gordon's amazing and so is Cameron. I like Obie and I loved Dion in the preseason so we just need another back for that rotation. Mingo, Sheard, Kruger, DQJ, Robertson, Skrine, Haden, Ward, Gipson... that's a damn good defense. Add a corner with size and we're set there.
Receiver? I'd like a high end one, preferably in free agency, but he'll be a second to Gordon so don't get carried away. And neither Little nor Bess are going anywhere. Love another TE to run 12 formations with Cameron.
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Does anybody think the Browns would be a better football team with Akili Smith at the helm?
The Saints do pretty well, Brees isn't a Petyon Manning.
All the Browns really need, is a Brian Sipe or a Kosar. Bill Nelson.
But, if Mariotta fell to them, yeah, that would be great.
The Browns still need to draft with those two first rounders, to be a better team.
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Shep a winning team makes a franchise quarterback. Had Tim Couch been drafted by the Steelers I believe hed be considered a hell of a quarterback.
I think if we'd taken big gay Ben then he be on the turd pile today.
A successful team especially a Superbowl team makes every player seem special.
Every coach too. Just by association.
WSS
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Shep a winning team makes a franchise quarterback. Had Tim Couch been drafted by the Steelers I believe hed be considered a hell of a quarterback.
I think if we'd taken big gay Ben then he be on the turd pile today.
A successful team especially a Superbowl team makes every player seem special.
Every coach too. Just by association.
WSS
Shep a winning team makes a franchise quarterback. Had Tim Couch been drafted by the Steelers I believe hed be considered a hell of a quarterback.
I think if we'd taken big gay Ben then he be on the turd pile today.
A successful team especially a Superbowl team makes every player seem special.
Every coach too. Just by association.
WSS
On the other hand, an elite franchise QB can make the team better than it is. For example, if both teams had Aaron Rodgers or Brandon Weeden, we would have beaten GB quite handily I think. As it is, Rodgers made his receivers look amazing, and weeden made ours look awful. See also, Tom Brady with Kenbrell tompkins - you think that guy would even make it on the browns roster? And yet he has 4 TDs on the year.
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Does anybody think the Browns would be a better football team with Akili Smith at the helm?
The Saints do pretty well, Brees isn't a Petyon Manning.
All the Browns really need, is a Brian Sipe or a Kosar. Bill Nelson.
But, if Mariotta fell to them, yeah, that would be great.
The Browns still need to draft with those two first rounders, to be a better team.
Brees is the closest equal you'll find to Peyton.Does anybody think the Browns would be a better football team with Akili Smith at the helm?
The Saints do pretty well, Brees isn't a Petyon Manning.
All the Browns really need, is a Brian Sipe or a Kosar. Bill Nelson.
But, if Mariotta fell to them, yeah, that would be great.
The Browns still need to draft with those two first rounders, to be a better team.
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Of course I'm not talking about an incompetent quarterback I'm talking about a decent quarterback.
I'm disappointed did Brandon Weeden never panned out.
I never like to see someone with promise hit the skids but I admit that he apparently didn't have what it takes to be even average at the position. Jason Campbell and Brian Hoyer both seem to have the ability to be at least somewhat above average in the right situation.
E
I think to counter your position do you think that Ben Roethlisberger would take the Jaguars to the Superbowl this year?
Or maybe I should have said someone we don't all hate how about Andrew Luck?
WSS
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Of course I'm not talking about an incompetent quarterback I'm talking about a decent quarterback.
I'm disappointed did Brandon Weeden never panned out.
I never like to see someone with promise hit the skids but I admit that he apparently didn't have what it takes to be even average at the position. Jason Campbell and Brian Hoyer both seem to have the ability to be at least somewhat above average in the right situation.
E
I think to counter your position do you think that Ben Roethlisberger would take the Jaguars to the Superbowl this year?
Or maybe I should have said someone we don't all hate how about Andrew Luck?
WSS
Of course I'm not talking about an incompetent quarterback I'm talking about a decent quarterback.
I'm disappointed did Brandon Weeden never panned out.
I never like to see someone with promise hit the skids but I admit that he apparently didn't have what it takes to be even average at the position. Jason Campbell and Brian Hoyer both seem to have the ability to be at least somewhat above average in the right situation.
E
I think to counter your position do you think that Ben Roethlisberger would take the Jaguars to the Superbowl this year?
Or maybe I should have said someone we don't all hate how about Andrew Luck?
WSS
Problem there Steve is you put a decent qb behind a terrible offensive line- you get Tim Couch- David Carr syndrome. They get pulverized.
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Brees is the closest equal you'll find to Peyton. DaBuckeye
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That helps me make my point. Shep is talking about paying a price
to move up into the first round to get the qb.
I mentioned Drew Brees, who was drafted 32nd....in the SECOND ROUND.
Therefore, if you find your guy, you could just let him come to you. If you
"have" to have one guy that is going to go in the picks before you, yeah...
but sometimes, you can get your guy a little later. I really like Murray in the second round.
That's given that you drafted a couple of stars in the first round. More likely, the Browns
will pick their guy, and if they don't have any other choice, they will pay a couple of picks to
move up.
But you have to "know" that you are drafting a legit future pro ball qb. We'll just see.
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Yeah, like I said before and if you look at the history of the NFL, you are MUCH more likely to find a franchise QB in the first 10 picks. There are definitely exceptions but if you look at the percentages top 10 work out more often. You could use every 2-7th round pick from now till the end of time and still never find a Brees or Brady. The first thing we should do is take all the hand measurements and wonderlic scores and draft the guy with the best combination of those two things alone.
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Of course I'm not talking about an incompetent quarterback I'm talking about a decent quarterback.
I'm disappointed did Brandon Weeden never panned out.
I never like to see someone with promise hit the skids but I admit that he apparently didn't have what it takes to be even average at the position. Jason Campbell and Brian Hoyer both seem to have the ability to be at least somewhat above average in the right situation.
E
I think to counter your position do you think that Ben Roethlisberger would take the Jaguars to the Superbowl this year?
Or maybe I should have said someone we don't all hate how about Andrew Luck?
WSS
Problem there Steve is you put a decent qb behind a terrible offensive line- you get Tim Couch- David Carr syndrome. They get pulverized.
Problem there Steve is you put a decent qb behind a terrible offensive line- you get Tim Couch- David Carr syndrome. They get pulverized.
Yeah, that's my point exactly. Tim Couch gets drafted by a great team he's still playing and probably has a few Pro Bowls to his credit.
WSS
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Yeah, like I said before and if you look at the history of the NFL, you are MUCH more likely to find a franchise QB in the first 10 picks. There are definitely exceptions but if you look at the percentages top 10 work out more often. You could use every 2-7th round pick from now till the end of time and still never find a Brees or Brady. The first thing we should do is take all the hand measurements and wonderlic scores and draft the guy with the best combination of those two things alone.
XxDaBuckeyexX said:
Yeah, like I said before and if you look at the history of the NFL, you are MUCH more likely to find a franchise QB in the first 10 picks. There are definitely exceptions but if you look at the percentages top 10 work out more often. You could use every 2-7th round pick from now till the end of time and still never find a Brees or Brady. The first thing we should do is take all the hand measurements and wonderlic scores and draft the guy with the best combination of those two things alone.
I wonder how much of that is people thinking they have to draft a QB in the top 10. Maybe none, maybe a little.
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If they don't someone else will, and while its the games most important position, its also the biggest lottery ticket. Nobody can predict if a quarterback will have "it" and be successful. All they can do is record the measurables, watch some film and take their best guess.
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No on Bridgewater.
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well as long as we don't have holmgren picking our QB then i'll give this FO achance.
2 years down the line the guy doesn't pan out, then they are gone as well.
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anymore I really don't want to hear about a qb's physical gifts like speed or arm strength or can he hit someone's butthole from 20 yds out. We've been regaled with all these combine stats for years from these fantasy league playing dooshbags. What I want to know, and don't know about any of those qb's coming out next year....is can they read defense's? Can they figure out what's coming pre snap and make the adjustment? Luck has it. Does RG even have it? Or did he make it look like he did cause he can buy himself time with his wheels? We all know now that qb's that rely solely on their wheels have a limited run in the NFL. Luck is going to be around as long as Manning. RG may not be in the league in 3 years. It sucks but it is what it is. Vick was the exception to that rule but that's only because I think he did nothing but study defense in prison. But yeah he's hurt again too.
anymore I really don't want to hear about a qb's physical gifts like speed or arm strength or can he hit someone's butthole from 20 yds out. We've been regaled with all these combine stats for years from these fantasy league playing dooshbags. What I want to know, and don't know about any of those qb's coming out next year....is can they read defense's? Can they figure out what's coming pre snap and make the adjustment? Luck has it. Does RG even have it? Or did he make it look like he did cause he can buy himself time with his wheels? We all know now that qb's that rely solely on their wheels have a limited run in the NFL. Luck is going to be around as long as Manning. RG may not be in the league in 3 years. It sucks but it is what it is. Vick was the exception to that rule but that's only because I think he did nothing but study defense in prison. But yeah he's hurt again too.
BINGO! All those "measurables" are worthless if not backed up with intelligence & knowledge of the total game. I have maintained for years that a 4.6 smart player will play faster & more productively than a 4.3 stupid player. A player who understands the game will see, adjust, & react MUCH faster than a player who doesn't.
Mike
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it's heart, the desire to win and most important of all is the smarts.
some people come with it naturally. johnny manziel is a perfect example of this. he plays like the college game is slower than he is and does things naturally that others could only hope to do. mariota sorta in that same category but is bigger.
do i think either could make it in the NFL? i think mariota would have a better shot only because of his size.
has everyone seen the pounding RG3 is taking this year? seriously he got slammer jammered last week and you know it's taking a toll not only on his body but in his confidence to do what he could do in college.
i'm all for the 'wait and see' about hoyer. is he going to be 100% will he be affected mentally from his injury and not be the same guy?
i'd love to see hoyer be healthy with all the confidence in the world (and have taken a 'sliding' class or 3) come back and make it hard for the FO to go all-in on someone that is unproven at this level. sure he's only played a few games but at least he played a few games. weeden in the big 12 or whatever ok.st. conf is in was probably the best because they played nobody and he was ahead of the game at that point.
coming into the big leagues is a whole other game charlie!
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Some good points, but...
1. Trent Dilfer was literally 14 years ago. We're in leap time and it's a different era. Since then, the Super Bowl has been about Brady, Manning, Manning, Favre, Warner, Roethlisberger, Brees, and Rodgers... a lot of future HOFers. And we went five years where the 10 teams had an average rank of 23rd in rushing, including 3 ranked dead LAST.
2. There is not a Super Bowl team with Jason Campbell at QB. Or Ryan Fitzpatrick. Brian Hoyer? We may never know if he could be some hybrid of Brees and Brady because he turns 29 next year coming off major knee surgery. If he'd started for us at 25 and shown those three good games, I'd feel differently.
The best teams have the best quarterbacks. If not all season (those are usually the 12 in the playoffs) then at least uber hot in the playoffs, like Flacco or Eli. Been that way for a very long time now.
3. I really believe you're behind the curve on Mariota. Matt Miller (NFLN and BR) says Bridgewater is his 2nd rated QB of the past five years and Mariota is 3rd (both behind only Luck). And if either has a bullet, it's Mariota. He's a freak athlete but becoming a truly elite passer. As someone on the national level said, you can get blown away by the measurables (legit 4.4, faster than RG3, as fast as Vick ever was), or the stats (500 yards rushing, 65% completion, sick 20/0 ratio)... but more than anything, just watch him play. He has elite arm talent and accuracy. He's smart. He makes great decisions.
Have we seen a guy that tall, that fast/quick, with that much arm talent come into the league lately? No. Which is why he's giving a legit #1 overall like Bridgewater (and he's damn near perfect) such a run. Those two would be in the running for #1 overall in just about any draft of the past decade.
4. Having a franchise quarterback is the keys to the kingdom. Without one, you can do a lot of other things right (like have the best back and best pass rusher, like the Vikings, or 6 Pro Bowlers like the Chiefs) but it doesn't really matter very much. The best teams have the best quarterbacks. The top of the Passer Ratings and the playoff lineup are roughly the same with an outlier here and there. This administration gets it: The Browns need an elite QB, one that wins game for them. Not one that just avoids stepping on his own cock.
By the way, Alex Smith is going to have to play better or the Chiefs will lose to better teams than Cleveland... and Cleveland could've won that game. Bess catches the punt on the run, the Browns tie it with 3:30 left and have a very good chance of winning it in overtime. Smith isn't even playing like Smith, one of the most accurate game managers in football the past two years.
5. The Browns have a lot of talent. The line has played great whenever Weeden's out and we still get Pinkston back. Gordon's amazing and so is Cameron. I like Obie and I loved Dion in the preseason so we just need another back for that rotation. Mingo, Sheard, Kruger, DQJ, Robertson, Skrine, Haden, Ward, Gipson... that's a damn good defense. Add a corner with size and we're set there.
Receiver? I'd like a high end one, preferably in free agency, but he'll be a second to Gordon so don't get carried away. And neither Little nor Bess are going anywhere. Love another TE to run 12 formations with Cameron.
1. Trent Dilfer was literally 14 years ago. We're in leap time and it's a different era. Since then, the Super Bowl has been about Brady, Manning, Manning, Favre, Warner, Roethlisberger, Brees, and Rodgers... a lot of future HOFers. And we went five years where the 10 teams had an average rank of 23rd in rushing, including 3 ranked dead LAST.
3. Matt Miller (NFLN and BR) says Bridgewater is his 2nd rated QB of the past five years and Mariota is 3rd (both behind only Luck). And if either has a bullet, it's Mariota. He's a freak athlete but becoming a truly elite passer. As someone on the national level said, you can get blown away by the measurables (legit 4.4, faster than RG3, as fast as Vick ever was), or the stats (500 yards rushing, 65% completion, sick 20/0 ratio)... but more than anything, just watch him play. He has elite arm talent and accuracy. He's smart. He makes great decisions.
Have we seen a guy that tall, that fast/quick, with that much arm talent come into the league lately? No. Which is why he's giving a legit #1 overall like Bridgewater (and he's damn near perfect) such a run. Those two would be in the running for #1 overall in just about any draft of the past decade.
Any draft in the last decade? Really?
First, Shep, I'm hard pressed to think of a single member here that agrees with you on Bridgewater. I don't...
Second, I can only think of a couple that like Mariotta. I'm not sold after my first viewing, but I am still looking...
Third... wasn't Boyd "your guy" just a couple weeks ago? You haven't mentioned him lately.
While we all agree you need a QB to win in this league, we simply do not agree that there is anyone in this draft worth giving away the store. And your latest HOF QB list does not help you make your case. Unless I'm mistaken only the Manning brothers were high 1st rounders. I know I'm right that Warner was a UFA...
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