Why the running game still matters
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I still think if you have a downhill running game that hurts, avg's 3 yds a carry....you get to 3rd manageable. Then guys like Cameron really shine, and if they swallow him up you have your 3rd down back in there to dump off to and he's only got to get 3 to 4 yds for the 1st. That's how you win. Teams bring people up then you have a qb/wr combo that can try for the homerun.
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All those stats tell us is that there is a correlation between winning and running, not the causality. Fortunately, though, Mr Horton has explained that for us - if you're running the ball 20 times it's because you want to take time off the clock when you're winning a game. So I'd counter that winning causes running, not the other way around.
All those stats tell us is that there is a correlation between winning and running, not the causality. Fortunately, though, Mr Horton has explained that for us - if you're running the ball 20 times it's because you want to take time off the clock when you're winning a game. So I'd counter that winning causes running, not the other way around.
Yup... same convo we had here a couple weeks ago. Had Ray chose to use "leading" rather than "winning", then there would be no discussion.
Still waiting to see percentages while the lead is being established.
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Good points both ways.
One way I look at it is a Rushing attack is more punishing (physically) than a Passing attack.
Your OL should be moving the DL out of the way, and your RB is bruising up the LB's & Secondary and wearing them down.
This is one of the big factors an effective running game gives you, it helps tire out the opponents Defense.
Yes, getting into manageable down and distance, Clock management, setting up other plays, and keeping the opponents Defense honest are all factors and good points as well.
While Rushing doesn't generally stack up the yards like Passing, the League average among Teams is still 40%-50% of plays being run plays - that's a huge chunk.
For example, in 2011 Teams averaged about 61 offensives plays a game ====> 27 Rush & 34 Pass
Think about that for a bit, an average of 34 Pass Att per game per Team for the entire Season.
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I know we had this conversation recently... and the winningest teams tend to pass between 60 and 70% of the time. First half stats were the focus of whatever the article was, and it was supportive of Lombardi's statements about "how teams win today."
There are obviously some outliers who are pulling it off. Seattle, KC, and SF come to mind. We'll have to see how that plays out. I find all three interesting, partially because all of their QBs can play, too. All three are very mobile, too.
But running to win is getting pretty tough because you play too many games against teams that can hang 40 on even really good defenses. You can't run your way out of a 14-0 deficit. Part of the problem is the longer the drive, the greater the peril, as Aikman (obviously one of my faves) put it. The more plays, the more chances for holding calls or false starts that put you behind the chains... and that means you have to have a quarterback who can get you out of 3rd and 13 a couple times on that drive.
Again, none of those three teams has a bad quarterback. In fact, Wilson and Kaep can be great ones. But we really haven't seen a run-based team with a game manager QB win a Super Bowl in quite some time. It's been owned by Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, and so on.
If you wanna talk about an interesting trend, it's teams struggling when they lack a midrange game. Losing Boldin and Pitta (the latter to injury) has really crippled the Ravens. It takes time to go deep and they haven't been able to protect Flacco (hence the Monroe trade). That's made Rice look really bad.
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I know we had this conversation recently... and the winningest teams tend to pass between 60 and 70% of the time. First half stats were the focus of whatever the article was, and it was supportive of Lombardi's statements about "how teams win today."
There are obviously some outliers who are pulling it off. Seattle, KC, and SF come to mind. We'll have to see how that plays out. I find all three interesting, partially because all of their QBs can play, too. All three are very mobile, too.
But running to win is getting pretty tough because you play too many games against teams that can hang 40 on even really good defenses. You can't run your way out of a 14-0 deficit. Part of the problem is the longer the drive, the greater the peril, as Aikman (obviously one of my faves) put it. The more plays, the more chances for holding calls or false starts that put you behind the chains... and that means you have to have a quarterback who can get you out of 3rd and 13 a couple times on that drive.
Again, none of those three teams has a bad quarterback. In fact, Wilson and Kaep can be great ones. But we really haven't seen a run-based team with a game manager QB win a Super Bowl in quite some time. It's been owned by Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, and so on.
If you wanna talk about an interesting trend, it's teams struggling when they lack a midrange game. Losing Boldin and Pitta (the latter to injury) has really crippled the Ravens. It takes time to go deep and they haven't been able to protect Flacco (hence the Monroe trade). That's made Rice look really bad.
If you wanna talk about an interesting trend, it's teams struggling when they lack a midrange game. Losing Boldin and Pitta (the latter to injury) has really crippled the Ravens. It takes time to go deep and they haven't been able to protect Flacco (hence the Monroe trade). That's made Rice look really bad.
exactly. If our edges can't get home on Sunday two things are going to happen. A) the browns are going to lose cause Flacco will torch them and
I will be here on monday and I will rant like a bastard on Kruger. Why Kruger? Cause his pass rushing has sucked this year. Last time they played the Ravens he was able to bullrush Oher back in Flacco's lap the whole game which means he's one of the best bullrushers in the game. For him not to be able to capitalize on that ability with even a moderately skilled outside/inside technique is infuriating. When he goes outside he's completely upright, doesn't dig in at all. The tackle can basically take a quick nap on him and push him out wide. I've been seeing this the whole season and it's been driving me crazy. We paid the guy 8m to "get home". Mingo and Sheard haven't been doing a whole heck of alot better either but Mingo's a noob and Sheard has been hurt. We need Groves this weekend to step up and be the guy that can sub in and there's no relent on the pressure. -
Kruger's been a bit disappointing, agreed. Good thing Mingo has NOT disappointed!
Mingo hasn't exactly disappointed, certainly not in the pass rush, but his run defense obviously needs work. But that was a known quantity. It was cringy to watch him get sealed inside by a TE's where a huge run broke against us. If the secondary is coming up to fill the middle the edges simply cannot allow themselves to get pinched, all the long runs this season of 10 yds or more I beleive have broken to his side when he was on the field. Almost 100% sure about that. I know for a fact that the couple runs we've lost this year that broke over 30 were all on him.
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I know we had this conversation recently... and the winningest teams tend to pass between 60 and 70% of the time. First half stats were the focus of whatever the article was, and it was supportive of Lombardi's statements about "how teams win today."
There are obviously some outliers who are pulling it off. Seattle, KC, and SF come to mind. We'll have to see how that plays out. I find all three interesting, partially because all of their QBs can play, too. All three are very mobile, too.
But running to win is getting pretty tough because you play too many games against teams that can hang 40 on even really good defenses. You can't run your way out of a 14-0 deficit. Part of the problem is the longer the drive, the greater the peril, as Aikman (obviously one of my faves) put it. The more plays, the more chances for holding calls or false starts that put you behind the chains... and that means you have to have a quarterback who can get you out of 3rd and 13 a couple times on that drive.
Again, none of those three teams has a bad quarterback. In fact, Wilson and Kaep can be great ones. But we really haven't seen a run-based team with a game manager QB win a Super Bowl in quite some time. It's been owned by Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, and so on.
If you wanna talk about an interesting trend, it's teams struggling when they lack a midrange game. Losing Boldin and Pitta (the latter to injury) has really crippled the Ravens. It takes time to go deep and they haven't been able to protect Flacco (hence the Monroe trade). That's made Rice look really bad.
There are obviously some outliers who are pulling it off. Seattle, KC, and SF come to mind. We'll have to see how that plays out. I find all three interesting, partially because all of their QBs can play, too. All three are very mobile, too.
Does raise another factoid we have not addressed...
More than merely mobile... in Wilson, Smith and Kaepernick you have three of the best running QB's in the league. They contribute to their teams run stats through designed runs and run options... and those contributions are fairly included as runs. However, they also pad their teams' running stats through their scrambles for positive yards when passes were called and these go down as runs.
Kruger's been a bit disappointing, agreed. Good thing Mingo has NOT disappointed!
Mingo hasn't exactly disappointed, certainly not in the pass rush, but his run defense obviously needs work.
Player Tot Solo Assist Sck TFL F Int PD
Barkevious Mingo 20 15 5 4.0 1 0 0 1
Paul Kruger 21 10 11 2.5 3 0 0 2
Not a great deal of difference there for one guy dissappointing and another delighting... just saying...
Could not find individual stats for QB Hurries and Knockdowns, but believe Kruger is out performing there as well.
(Did you know we are 2nd in the league in QB Hits?)
Half a season and 4 sacks is not exactly a world class debut. Bark needs time and 20-30 pounds.
Kruger is being paid as much for veteran leadership as he is on-field production.
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There are obviously some outliers who are pulling it off. Seattle, KC, and SF come to mind. We'll have to see how that plays out. I find all three interesting, partially because all of their QBs can play, too. All three are very mobile, too.
Does raise another factoid we have not addressed...
More than merely mobile... in Wilson, Smith and Kaepernick you have three of the best running QB's in the league. They contribute to their teams run stats through designed runs and run options... and those contributions are fairly included as runs. However, they also pad their teams' running stats through their scrambles for positive yards when passes were called and these go down as runs.
Kruger's been a bit disappointing, agreed. Good thing Mingo has NOT disappointed!
Mingo hasn't exactly disappointed, certainly not in the pass rush, but his run defense obviously needs work.
Player Tot Solo Assist Sck TFL F Int PD
Barkevious Mingo 20 15 5 4.0 1 0 0 1
Paul Kruger 21 10 11 2.5 3 0 0 2
Not a great deal of difference there for one guy dissappointing and another delighting... just saying...
Could not find individual stats for QB Hurries and Knockdowns, but believe Kruger is out performing there as well.
(Did you know we are 2nd in the league in QB Hits?)
Half a season and 4 sacks is not exactly a world class debut. Bark needs time and 20-30 pounds.
Kruger is being paid as much for veteran leadership as he is on-field production.
Does raise another factoid we have not addressed...
More than merely mobile... in Wilson, Smith and Kaepernick you have three of the best running QB's in the league. They contribute to their teams run stats through designed runs and run options... and those contributions are fairly included as runs. However, they also pad their teams' running stats through their scrambles for positive yards when passes were called and these go down as runs.
Player Tot Solo Assist Sck TFL F Int PD
Barkevious Mingo 20 15 5 4.0 1 0 0 1
Paul Kruger 21 10 11 2.5 3 0 0 2
Not a great deal of difference there for one guy dissappointing and another delighting... just saying...
Could not find individual stats for QB Hurries and Knockdowns, but believe Kruger is out performing there as well.
(Did you know we are 2nd in the league in QB Hits?)
Half a season and 4 sacks is not exactly a world class debut. Bark needs time and 20-30 pounds.
Kruger is being paid as much for veteran leadership as he is on-field production.
Kruger has been coming on in recent weeks.He will blow up his old team today,
Zombo
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i think a solid running game is very important. doesn't meant you need a big name guy, a first, second or even third round guy. someone who gets you 3+ yds per carry, but more importantly can break away for runs for 40-50 yards for a score. it also brings up the defense which lends to a more productive passing game.
the REAL most undeniable way to win in the NFL is to dominate the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. bottom line.
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There are obviously some outliers who are pulling it off. Seattle, KC, and SF come to mind. We'll have to see how that plays out. I find all three interesting, partially because all of their QBs can play, too. All three are very mobile, too.
Does raise another factoid we have not addressed...
More than merely mobile... in Wilson, Smith and Kaepernick you have three of the best running QB's in the league. They contribute to their teams run stats through designed runs and run options... and those contributions are fairly included as runs. However, they also pad their teams' running stats through their scrambles for positive yards when passes were called and these go down as runs.
Kruger's been a bit disappointing, agreed. Good thing Mingo has NOT disappointed!
Mingo hasn't exactly disappointed, certainly not in the pass rush, but his run defense obviously needs work.
Player Tot Solo Assist Sck TFL F Int PD
Barkevious Mingo 20 15 5 4.0 1 0 0 1
Paul Kruger 21 10 11 2.5 3 0 0 2
Not a great deal of difference there for one guy dissappointing and another delighting... just saying...
Could not find individual stats for QB Hurries and Knockdowns, but believe Kruger is out performing there as well.
(Did you know we are 2nd in the league in QB Hits?)
Half a season and 4 sacks is not exactly a world class debut. Bark needs time and 20-30 pounds.
Kruger is being paid as much for veteran leadership as he is on-field production.
Dude, just wanna say... you're good.
Does raise another factoid we have not addressed...
More than merely mobile... in Wilson, Smith and Kaepernick you have three of the best running QB's in the league. They contribute to their teams run stats through designed runs and run options... and those contributions are fairly included as runs. However, they also pad their teams' running stats through their scrambles for positive yards when passes were called and these go down as runs.
Player Tot Solo Assist Sck TFL F Int PD
Barkevious Mingo 20 15 5 4.0 1 0 0 1
Paul Kruger 21 10 11 2.5 3 0 0 2
Not a great deal of difference there for one guy dissappointing and another delighting... just saying...
Could not find individual stats for QB Hurries and Knockdowns, but believe Kruger is out performing there as well.
(Did you know we are 2nd in the league in QB Hits?)
Half a season and 4 sacks is not exactly a world class debut. Bark needs time and 20-30 pounds.
Kruger is being paid as much for veteran leadership as he is on-field production.
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i think a solid running game is very important. doesn't meant you need a big name guy, a first, second or even third round guy. someone who gets you 3+ yds per carry, but more importantly can break away for runs for 40-50 yards for a score. it also brings up the defense which lends to a more productive passing game.
the REAL most undeniable way to win in the NFL is to dominate the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. bottom line.
Except that UDFAs look good in front of Manning or Rodgers. And the Browns "horrible" line for Frye became awesome for DA. Same for this line in front of anybody who isn't Weeden. Had their best day (by PFF) of the year last week.
QB affects line more than the other way around. My mother plays left tackle for the Packers now.
i think a solid running game is very important. doesn't meant you need a big name guy, a first, second or even third round guy. someone who gets you 3+ yds per carry, but more importantly can break away for runs for 40-50 yards for a score. it also brings up the defense which lends to a more productive passing game.
the REAL most undeniable way to win in the NFL is to dominate the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. bottom line.
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yes you need a good QB. but without the line dominating the defensive pass rush and giving him some time to throw the ball or the line opening up holes for a running back, you ain't going to score which means you ain't going to win.
and if your defense just lets RBs walk through the first tier of defense which will bring up more defenders to try and prevent that which leave their bigger taller faster WRs to burn you for big plays you ain't going to win either.
thank you for agreeing with me.
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yes you need a good QB. but without the line dominating the defensive pass rush and giving him some time to throw the ball or the line opening up holes for a running back, you ain't going to score which means you ain't going to win.
and if your defense just lets RBs walk through the first tier of defense which will bring up more defenders to try and prevent that which leave their bigger taller faster WRs to burn you for big plays you ain't going to win either.
thank you for agreeing with me.
yes you need a good QB. but without the line dominating the defensive pass rush and giving him some time to throw the ball or the line opening up holes for a running back, you ain't going to score which means you ain't going to win.
and if your defense just lets RBs walk through the first tier of defense which will bring up more defenders to try and prevent that which leave their bigger taller faster WRs to burn you for big plays you ain't going to win either.
thank you for agreeing with me.
Your welcome
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Oh, and Z... EVERYBODY knows it's a quarterback/passing league? Did you see this thread?
We just need a baseline of understanding of the league from which to launch conversations.
Oh, and Z... EVERYBODY knows it's a quarterback/passing league? Did you see this thread?
We just need a baseline of understanding of the league from which to launch conversations.
It's a quarterback league first and foremost.
Running game still matters. A lot.
WHO to get at QB and HOW to get them is the debatable part. Everyone knows we need a franchise QB. My 84 year old mother knows that. I think my dog suspects as well.
Zombo
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