Has Paul Kruger been a disappointment?
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we have a pass rushing problem overall. Both Kruger and Sheard were getting there if Cutler held the ball too long so they're not completely garbage. They just can't get close in real time.
so where does the problem lie? bad blitz packages by the DC? overall talent by the LBs? i mean last year in the 4-3 sheard was getting to the QBs a lot more than he is now.
man i hate bringing in new regimes with new systems after the players have played in a certain one since they became a member of the team.
can't you go with the 3-4 but based upon your players make adjustments to 'your' scheme to better suit the talent?
so where does the problem lie? bad blitz packages by the DC? overall talent by the LBs? i mean last year in the 4-3 sheard was getting to the QBs a lot more than he is now.
man i hate bringing in new regimes with new systems after the players have played in a certain one since they became a member of the team.
can't you go with the 3-4 but based upon your players make adjustments to 'your' scheme to better suit the talent?
That's what successful NFL coaches do, so of course we can't. You have a general overall philosophy and adapt to the talents of your squad.
People place too much emphasis on the scheme switch itself when they shouldn't. The system is learned by now. The X's and O's are taught. The fact that we switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4 isn't important.
The problem is more the spatial recognition of players. Sheard knows where he has to be, he knows his read, he just isn't fully comfortable being in space. He doesn't know that it's only three steps to the line, 1.75 seconds until contact, etc., etc. because those figures are different than when he was on the line. Those feelings are different. He can't subconsciously feel the guard washing down or the back releasing etc. because it's still new to him, stuff like that will come with time.
That's where we seem to be lacking. All of our OLB's are adjusting to new scenarios. Horton lives and dies by the production of his OLB's. He puts his corners on islands assuming the rush will get there. If the OLB's struggle, the defense struggles. If were a half second late getting to the QB, he gets the ball off. That half second is enough for the WR to get a step on the DB or the RB to release on a block and get in space.
It's beautiful, really, the inter connectedness of each individual thing.
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Yes .. he has been a fucking disappointment . Everyone not named "Gordon", "Cameron", "Taylor", "Ward" or "Haden" is a fucking disappointment.
And Billy Winn.
Except the winningest QB in CB History , Brian Hoyer.
I'm sure he will blow by week three next year in Holcombesque fashion.
Zombo
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Yes .. he has been a fucking disappointment . Everyone not named "Gordon", "Cameron", "Taylor", "Ward" or "Haden" is a fucking disappointment.
And Billy Winn.
Except the winningest QB in CB History , Brian Hoyer.
I'm sure he will blow by week three next year in Holcombesque fashion.
Zombo
Zombo said:
Yes .. he has been a fucking disappointment . Everyone not named "Gordon", "Cameron", "Taylor", "Ward" or "Haden" is a fucking disappointment.
And Billy Winn.
Except the winningest QB in CB History , Brian Hoyer.
I'm sure he will blow by week three next year in Holcombesque fashion.
Zombo
Haden has also been a disappointment. (Although not to me).I never thought he was an elite cb to begin with.
People on here believe he's an elite cb. He is not. He's better then anyone we have, but that ain't saying much. He would be a very good #2 cb, on a good defense, but for anyone to think he's some All-Pro shutdown guy, he is not that.
"And they don't really know even what they're talkin' about And I can't imagine what empty heads can achieve." -
Zombo said:
Yes .. he has been a fucking disappointment . Everyone not named "Gordon", "Cameron", "Taylor", "Ward" or "Haden" is a fucking disappointment.
And Billy Winn.
Except the winningest QB in CB History , Brian Hoyer.
I'm sure he will blow by week three next year in Holcombesque fashion.
Zombo
Haden has also been a disappointment. (Although not to me).I never thought he was an elite cb to begin with.
People on here believe he's an elite cb. He is not. He's better then anyone we have, but that ain't saying much. He would be a very good #2 cb, on a good defense, but for anyone to think he's some All-Pro shutdown guy, he is not that.
Haden has also been a disappointment. (Although not to me).I never thought he was an elite cb to begin with.
People on here believe he's an elite cb. He is not. He's better then anyone we have, but that ain't saying much. He would be a very good #2 cb, on a good defense, but for anyone to think he's some All-Pro shutdown guy, he is not that.
Disagree. He is one of the Top corners in the NFL.
Corners get beat all the time, Browns fans expect two Deion Sanders for some reason.
Zombo
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Zombo said:
Yes .. he has been a fucking disappointment . Everyone not named "Gordon", "Cameron", "Taylor", "Ward" or "Haden" is a fucking disappointment.
And Billy Winn.
Except the winningest QB in CB History , Brian Hoyer.
I'm sure he will blow by week three next year in Holcombesque fashion.
Zombo
Haden has also been a disappointment. (Although not to me).I never thought he was an elite cb to begin with.
People on here believe he's an elite cb. He is not. He's better then anyone we have, but that ain't saying much. He would be a very good #2 cb, on a good defense, but for anyone to think he's some All-Pro shutdown guy, he is not that.
Haden has also been a disappointment. (Although not to me).I never thought he was an elite cb to begin with.
People on here believe he's an elite cb. He is not. He's better then anyone we have, but that ain't saying much. He would be a very good #2 cb, on a good defense, but for anyone to think he's some All-Pro shutdown guy, he is not that.
I mean, you can ask Mike Wallace, AJ Green, Megatron, and Torrey Smith how much of a shutdown receiver he is...
He's one of the best in the AFC. He's top ten in passes defended in the AFC this year, and he's having a down year. He's a solid #1 and you're crazy to think otherwise. He's not the end all be all best CB in the league, but he's a player you don't get rid of, much less disparage by moving him to #2.
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Buster skrine has the same amount of passes defended, does that make him as good as Haden?
That stat just proves that teams like throwing the ball at Joe Haden. Just like they like throwing it at Skrine
"And they don't really know even what they're talkin' about And I can't imagine what empty heads can achieve." -
I think your observation on Horton/ Kruger supports my point. Every D has (or should have) a coach on the field. Seems like Kruger is Horton's.
First off isn't Horton is the coaches box? So how in the hell would you know if hes talking to Kruger?
Second Kruger is about as much of a coach on the field for the defense as Weeden is for the offense. "The coach" on defense is Jackson and you and every Browns fan knows that.
Don't you think Ward and his agent are thinking to themselves wow they are paying this guy $40 million over 5 years for this production we about to get really paid.
Someone said that Kruger is close to making plays....you know why hes close because hes to damn slow to make them. The guy is 385th in the league in tackles 385th!!! there are only 32 teams in the NFL. That means on average there are 11 guys per team making more tackles than him and Kruger played every game.
First off isn't Horton is the coaches box? So how in the hell would you know if hes talking to Kruger?
Second Kruger is about as much of a coach on the field for the defense as Weeden is for the offense. "The coach" on defense is Jackson and you and every Browns fan knows that.
Don't you think Ward and his agent are thinking to themselves wow they are paying this guy $40 million over 5 years for this production we about to get really paid.
First: Did not say Kruger was talking to Horton... took that on faith from another poster.
Second: I don't know that DQ is the Coach on the field. I know he is the purported emotional leader of the D. I assume he is calls the adjustements because that is normally the job of an ILB. But I also know that DQ was not the "coach on the field" in our last 3-4, that was Fujita.
I assume Ward is focussing on football and his agent is focussed on what the top SS's in the league are making.
That's what successful NFL coaches do, so of course we can't. You have a general overall philosophy and adapt to the talents of your squad.
People place too much emphasis on the scheme switch itself when they shouldn't. The system is learned by now. The X's and O's are taught. The fact that we switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4 isn't important.
The problem is more the spatial recognition of players. Sheard knows where he has to be, he knows his read, he just isn't fully comfortable being in space. He doesn't know that it's only three steps to the line, 1.75 seconds until contact, etc., etc. because those figures are different than when he was on the line. Those feelings are different. He can't subconsciously feel the guard washing down or the back releasing etc. because it's still new to him, stuff like that will come with time.
That's where we seem to be lacking. All of our OLB's are adjusting to new scenarios. Horton lives and dies by the production of his OLB's. He puts his corners on islands assuming the rush will get there. If the OLB's struggle, the defense struggles. If were a half second late getting to the QB, he gets the ball off. That half second is enough for the WR to get a step on the DB or the RB to release on a block and get in space.
It's beautiful, really, the inter connectedness of each individual thing.
Respectfully disagree... possibly because you are now confusing me...
You say the swap from the 4-3 to the 3-4 is a non-factor because the 3-4 has been taught.
Then you essentially say it still feels unnatural to Sheard and all our OLB's are adjusting.
Then wax on about interconnectivity. Wax on Wax off?
What I know is:
Knowing is much different from reacting.
And reacting differently than the player to either side of you diminishes the D's performance.
What am I missing?
Buster skrine has the same amount of passes defended, does that make him as good as Haden?
That stat just proves that teams like throwing the ball at Joe Haden. Just like they like throwing it at Skrine
I'd guess Haden's percentage defended is a good bit higher than Buster's.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Buster skrine has the same amount of passes defended, does that make him as good as Haden?
That stat just proves that teams like throwing the ball at Joe Haden. Just like they like throwing it at Skrine
Buster skrine has the same amount of passes defended, does that make him as good as Haden?
That stat just proves that teams like throwing the ball at Joe Haden. Just like they like throwing it at Skrine
Buster Skrine is also covering team's #2 receivers.
The fact that we've rarely been gouged by a #1 receiver should be the proof in the pudding. Or we could just go back to the time when we had no corners, if you liked that era so much.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
First off isn't Horton is the coaches box? So how in the hell would you know if hes talking to Kruger?
Second Kruger is about as much of a coach on the field for the defense as Weeden is for the offense. "The coach" on defense is Jackson and you and every Browns fan knows that.
Don't you think Ward and his agent are thinking to themselves wow they are paying this guy $40 million over 5 years for this production we about to get really paid.
First: Did not say Kruger was talking to Horton... took that on faith from another poster.
Second: I don't know that DQ is the Coach on the field. I know he is the purported emotional leader of the D. I assume he is calls the adjustements because that is normally the job of an ILB. But I also know that DQ was not the "coach on the field" in our last 3-4, that was Fujita.
I assume Ward is focussing on football and his agent is focussed on what the top SS's in the league are making.
That's what successful NFL coaches do, so of course we can't. You have a general overall philosophy and adapt to the talents of your squad.
People place too much emphasis on the scheme switch itself when they shouldn't. The system is learned by now. The X's and O's are taught. The fact that we switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4 isn't important.
The problem is more the spatial recognition of players. Sheard knows where he has to be, he knows his read, he just isn't fully comfortable being in space. He doesn't know that it's only three steps to the line, 1.75 seconds until contact, etc., etc. because those figures are different than when he was on the line. Those feelings are different. He can't subconsciously feel the guard washing down or the back releasing etc. because it's still new to him, stuff like that will come with time.
That's where we seem to be lacking. All of our OLB's are adjusting to new scenarios. Horton lives and dies by the production of his OLB's. He puts his corners on islands assuming the rush will get there. If the OLB's struggle, the defense struggles. If were a half second late getting to the QB, he gets the ball off. That half second is enough for the WR to get a step on the DB or the RB to release on a block and get in space.
It's beautiful, really, the inter connectedness of each individual thing.
Respectfully disagree... possibly because you are now confusing me...
You say the swap from the 4-3 to the 3-4 is a non-factor because the 3-4 has been taught.
Then you essentially say it still feels unnatural to Sheard and all our OLB's are adjusting.
Then wax on about interconnectivity. Wax on Wax off?
What I know is:
Knowing is much different from reacting.
And reacting differently than the player to either side of you diminishes the D's performance.
What am I missing?
Buster skrine has the same amount of passes defended, does that make him as good as Haden?
That stat just proves that teams like throwing the ball at Joe Haden. Just like they like throwing it at Skrine
I'd guess Haden's percentage defended is a good bit higher than Buster's.
First: Did not say Kruger was talking to Horton... took that on faith from another poster.
Second: I don't know that DQ is the Coach on the field. I know he is the purported emotional leader of the D. I assume he is calls the adjustements because that is normally the job of an ILB. But I also know that DQ was not the "coach on the field" in our last 3-4, that was Fujita.
I assume Ward is focussing on football and his agent is focussed on what the top SS's in the league are making.
Respectfully disagree... possibly because you are now confusing me...
You say the swap from the 4-3 to the 3-4 is a non-factor because the 3-4 has been taught.
Then you essentially say it still feels unnatural to Sheard and all our OLB's are adjusting.
Then wax on about interconnectivity. Wax on Wax off?
What I know is:
Knowing is much different from reacting.
And reacting differently than the player to either side of you diminishes the D's performance.
What am I missing?
I'd guess Haden's percentage defended is a good bit higher than Buster's.
I was saying that people put too much emphasis on the X's and O's of the scheme switch, when it's not really that important. We could have switched from a 3-4 to a 4-3, kept Sheard on the line and picked up an experienced 3-4 OLB and our defense would have probably been much better (Groves was playing solidly before his injury, he was outperforming Kruger)
The reason everything is failing is because of the OLB's. It's because Sheard, Kruger and Mingo are a half second late. It's because they're getting used to the new position.
The switching of the scheme doesn't really affect our DL, or DB, or S because they're playing in those positions regardless of the scheme, they just have to learn a few small wrinkles.
But because our OLB's are struggling, the defense struggles, because that's how Horton's system is.
What you said at the end is what I was referring to. The OLB's know their assignments, they're just not reacting as they should. If they could get to the QB a half second faster, the defense looks much better.
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we have a pass rushing problem overall. Both Kruger and Sheard were getting there if Cutler held the ball too long so they're not completely garbage. They just can't get close in real time.
so where does the problem lie? bad blitz packages by the DC? overall talent by the LBs? i mean last year in the 4-3 sheard was getting to the QBs a lot more than he is now.
man i hate bringing in new regimes with new systems after the players have played in a certain one since they became a member of the team.
can't you go with the 3-4 but based upon your players make adjustments to 'your' scheme to better suit the talent?
so where does the problem lie? bad blitz packages by the DC? overall talent by the LBs? i mean last year in the 4-3 sheard was getting to the QBs a lot more than he is now.
man i hate bringing in new regimes with new systems after the players have played in a certain one since they became a member of the team.
can't you go with the 3-4 but based upon your players make adjustments to 'your' scheme to better suit the talent?
Sheard obviously is better with his hand in the ground. Yet it's always Kruger that puts em down on passing downs. I think Sheard only gets to put his hand down when he's playing with Mingo. I dunno...I"m starting to not like our system.
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Buster skrine has the same amount of passes defended, does that make him as good as Haden?
That stat just proves that teams like throwing the ball at Joe Haden. Just like they like throwing it at Skrine
Buster Skrine is also covering team's #2 receivers.
The fact that we've rarely been gouged by a #1 receiver should be the proof in the pudding. Or we could just go back to the time when we had no corners, if you liked that era so much.
Buster Skrine is also covering team's #2 receivers.
The fact that we've rarely been gouged by a #1 receiver should be the proof in the pudding. Or we could just go back to the time when we had no corners, if you liked that era so much.
No I don't want to go back to the era, but I do want a better #1 cb then Haden
"And they don't really know even what they're talkin' about And I can't imagine what empty heads can achieve." -
Buster Skrine is also covering team's #2 receivers.
The fact that we've rarely been gouged by a #1 receiver should be the proof in the pudding. Or we could just go back to the time when we had no corners, if you liked that era so much.
No I don't want to go back to the era, but I do want a better #1 cb then Haden
No I don't want to go back to the era, but I do want a better #1 cb then Haden
Whats your deal with Haden? Did he bang your girlfriend or something? Of all of the problems we have on the defensive side of the ball, Haden is the least of them. I know 31 other teams that would take him in a heartbeat.
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Buster Skrine is also covering team's #2 receivers.
The fact that we've rarely been gouged by a #1 receiver should be the proof in the pudding. Or we could just go back to the time when we had no corners, if you liked that era so much.
No I don't want to go back to the era, but I do want a better #1 cb then Haden
No I don't want to go back to the era, but I do want a better #1 cb then Haden
And... how many of those exist?... in the world?...
We could create one, like when you're playing Madden, right?? Make him all 99s...
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No I don't want to go back to the era, but I do want a better #1 cb then Haden
And... how many of those exist?... in the world?...
We could create one, like when you're playing Madden, right?? Make him all 99s...
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Buster Skrine is also covering team's #2 receivers.
The fact that we've rarely been gouged by a #1 receiver should be the proof in the pudding. Or we could just go back to the time when we had no corners, if you liked that era so much.
No I don't want to go back to the era, but I do want a better #1 cb then Haden
No I don't want to go back to the era, but I do want a better #1 cb then Haden
It's good to want better, but you also have to balance that with the more pressing overall needs.
Upgrading from a solid #1 to an elite #1 would be more expensive and yield nearly the same results as just upgrading from a garbage #2 to a good #2.
Good corners demand some of the highest contracts in the league.
Having 25% of our cap space eaten up at two positions would be detrimental toward building a perennial championship caliber team.
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No I don't want to go back to the era, but I do want a better #1 cb then Haden
It's good to want better, but you also have to balance that with the more pressing overall needs.
Upgrading from a solid #1 to an elite #1 would be more expensive and yield nearly the same results as just upgrading from a garbage #2 to a good #2.
Good corners demand some of the highest contracts in the league.
Having 25% of our cap space eaten up at two positions would be detrimental toward building a perennial championship caliber team.
It's good to want better, but you also have to balance that with the more pressing overall needs.
Upgrading from a solid #1 to an elite #1 would be more expensive and yield nearly the same results as just upgrading from a garbage #2 to a good #2.
Good corners demand some of the highest contracts in the league.
Having 25% of our cap space eaten up at two positions would be detrimental toward building a perennial championship caliber team.
They have pressing needs for sure, but corner should be one of them. And it should be about 3rd on the list, behind QB and ILB. Everyone on the planet knows the Browns need a QB and the Lb's have been exposed all year for lack of speed and ability to cover ANYONE. And now everyone knows that our cb's are not as good as was thought.
"And they don't really know even what they're talkin' about And I can't imagine what empty heads can achieve." -
here's my point about CBs in the league of today. if this is a passing league and you are facing teams with physical 6'5" WRs wouldn't it make sense to draft tall physical corners?
i love haden to death but watching a replay of him try to 'climb a ladder' to get to the ball that was intentionally thrown high to marshall yesterday made me cringe. overall the dbs and s played pretty fucking well (except for the worse play of the game on that basic hail mary where posey jumped 2 seconds early and the ball landed in the WRs in the endzone) and almost put up as many point as the offense..
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It's good to want better, but you also have to balance that with the more pressing overall needs.
Upgrading from a solid #1 to an elite #1 would be more expensive and yield nearly the same results as just upgrading from a garbage #2 to a good #2.
Good corners demand some of the highest contracts in the league.
Having 25% of our cap space eaten up at two positions would be detrimental toward building a perennial championship caliber team.
They have pressing needs for sure, but corner should be one of them. And it should be about 3rd on the list, behind QB and ILB. Everyone on the planet knows the Browns need a QB and the Lb's have been exposed all year for lack of speed and ability to cover ANYONE. And now everyone knows that our cb's are not as good as was thought.
They have pressing needs for sure, but corner should be one of them. And it should be about 3rd on the list, behind QB and ILB. Everyone on the planet knows the Browns need a QB and the Lb's have been exposed all year for lack of speed and ability to cover ANYONE. And now everyone knows that our cb's are not as good as was thought.
you are preaching to the choir brother. been screaming that for four years now.
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here's my point about CBs in the league of today. if this is a passing league and you are facing teams with physical 6'5" WRs wouldn't it make sense to draft tall physical corners?
i love haden to death but watching a replay of him try to 'climb a ladder' to get to the ball that was intentionally thrown high to marshall yesterday made me cringe. overall the dbs and s played pretty fucking well (except for the worse play of the game on that basic hail mary where posey jumped 2 seconds early and the ball landed in the WRs in the endzone) and almost put up as many point as the offense..
here's my point about CBs in the league of today. if this is a passing league and you are facing teams with physical 6'5" WRs wouldn't it make sense to draft tall physical corners?
i love haden to death but watching a replay of him try to 'climb a ladder' to get to the ball that was intentionally thrown high to marshall yesterday made me cringe. overall the dbs and s played pretty fucking well (except for the worse play of the game on that basic hail mary where posey jumped 2 seconds early and the ball landed in the WRs in the endzone) and almost put up as many point as the offense..
I'm not saying Haden is awful and I want him gone, I have never said that, All I'm saying is there needs to be a better option, someone bigger, stronger and taller. A CB that can jam wr's and re-route them. Disrupt the timing of plays, He does not do that.
"And they don't really know even what they're talkin' about And I can't imagine what empty heads can achieve." -
here's my point about CBs in the league of today. if this is a passing league and you are facing teams with physical 6'5" WRs wouldn't it make sense to draft tall physical corners?
i love haden to death but watching a replay of him try to 'climb a ladder' to get to the ball that was intentionally thrown high to marshall yesterday made me cringe. overall the dbs and s played pretty fucking well (except for the worse play of the game on that basic hail mary where posey jumped 2 seconds early and the ball landed in the WRs in the endzone) and almost put up as many point as the offense..
I'm not saying Haden is awful and I want him gone, I have never said that, All I'm saying is there needs to be a better option, someone bigger, stronger and taller. A CB that can jam wr's and re-route them. Disrupt the timing of plays, He does not do that.
I'm not saying Haden is awful and I want him gone, I have never said that, All I'm saying is there needs to be a better option, someone bigger, stronger and taller. A CB that can jam wr's and re-route them. Disrupt the timing of plays, He does not do that.
I've been very high on the "tall, physical corners" as of late. It makes sense, as receivers are getting taller by the day.
If we could take a tall, physical, pressing corner with solid speed in rounds 2-3, say Louchiez Purifoy, I'd be all for slowly phasing Haden out of #1 and into a #2 role. But Haden has played very well in his career at #1. He rarely gives up a big game. His size and speed is an issue on paper, but he normally makes the play.
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