Hoyer trade rumor
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No problem bud. Shitcan them all.
But...
giving up half your pics and you're only quality quarterbacks for Johnny football means that you will not have Seattle's defense and that's a fact.
See that was kind of the key having the best defense in the league. The defense that can shut down Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, not the defense that makes Kirk Cousins look like a young Joe Namath.
I think if you take blue chip players with your high pics and roll the dice on a quarterback in two or three he will be fine.
I picked the name Brandon Weeden for my Super Bowl trip scenario because most of you guys hate him. I figure Brian Hoyer or Jason Campbell would have worked a lot better with a great defense. Maybe not even looked much better but remember how many games we lost in the second half because the defense fell on her ass?
WSS
Why wouldn't we have Seattle's defense? Because we're not drafting them high enough?
We have a higher ADP of our defensive players than they do. Our players were drafted higher than theirs.
Pete Carroll is a better defensive mind than Ray Horton. Ray Horton is not a good defensive coordinator, as I've been saying for a while. The proof is in the pudding. He had a more talented team than Seattle, based on average draft position, but didn't know how to use them.
Either that or Seattle's scouting department is just ridiculously better than 31 other teams. Either way, taking a quarterback at #4 doesn't change either of those facts.
Why wouldn't we have Seattle's defense? Because we're not drafting them high enough?
No, because we draft like shit, Maiava anyone?
We have a higher ADP of our defensive players than they do. Our players were drafted higher than theirs.
See above.
Pete Carroll is a better defensive mind than Ray Horton. Ray Horton is not a good defensive coordinator, as I've been saying for a while. The proof is in the pudding. He had a more talented team than Seattle, based on average draft position, but didn't know how to use them.
Granted Horton was overrated. But If he had a more talented team, go tell me how many Browns start on Seattle's defense Haden is the #2 corner- don't tell me he's better than Sherman. Maybe Ward. Give me the other 9 Browns defensive players the Seahawks would trade for straight up. Position by position.
Either that or Seattle's scouting department is just ridiculously better than 31 other teams. Either way, taking a quarterback at #4 doesn't change either of those facts.
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Why wouldn't we have Seattle's defense? Because we're not drafting them high enough?
No, because we draft like shit, Maiava anyone?
We have a higher ADP of our defensive players than they do. Our players were drafted higher than theirs.
See above.
Pete Carroll is a better defensive mind than Ray Horton. Ray Horton is not a good defensive coordinator, as I've been saying for a while. The proof is in the pudding. He had a more talented team than Seattle, based on average draft position, but didn't know how to use them.
Granted Horton was overrated. But If he had a more talented team, go tell me how many Browns start on Seattle's defense Haden is the #2 corner- don't tell me he's better than Sherman. Maybe Ward. Give me the other 9 Browns defensive players the Seahawks would trade for straight up. Position by position.
Either that or Seattle's scouting department is just ridiculously better than 31 other teams. Either way, taking a quarterback at #4 doesn't change either of those facts.
Why wouldn't we have Seattle's defense? Because we're not drafting them high enough?
No, because we draft like shit, Maiava anyone?
We have a higher ADP of our defensive players than they do. Our players were drafted higher than theirs.
See above.
Pete Carroll is a better defensive mind than Ray Horton. Ray Horton is not a good defensive coordinator, as I've been saying for a while. The proof is in the pudding. He had a more talented team than Seattle, based on average draft position, but didn't know how to use them.
Granted Horton was overrated. But If he had a more talented team, go tell me how many Browns start on Seattle's defense Haden is the #2 corner- don't tell me he's better than Sherman. Maybe Ward. Give me the other 9 Browns defensive players the Seahawks would trade for straight up. Position by position.
Either that or Seattle's scouting department is just ridiculously better than 31 other teams. Either way, taking a quarterback at #4 doesn't change either of those facts.
So your argument is that we are shitty drafters, and the solution is that we should just waste our higher draft picks on players that won't turn out anyway.
Got it.
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Why wouldn't we have Seattle's defense? Because we're not drafting them high enough?
No, because we draft like shit, Maiava anyone?
We have a higher ADP of our defensive players than they do. Our players were drafted higher than theirs.
See above.
Pete Carroll is a better defensive mind than Ray Horton. Ray Horton is not a good defensive coordinator, as I've been saying for a while. The proof is in the pudding. He had a more talented team than Seattle, based on average draft position, but didn't know how to use them.
Granted Horton was overrated. But If he had a more talented team, go tell me how many Browns start on Seattle's defense Haden is the #2 corner- don't tell me he's better than Sherman. Maybe Ward. Give me the other 9 Browns defensive players the Seahawks would trade for straight up. Position by position.
Either that or Seattle's scouting department is just ridiculously better than 31 other teams. Either way, taking a quarterback at #4 doesn't change either of those facts.
So your argument is that we are shitty drafters, and the solution is that we should just waste our higher draft picks on players that won't turn out anyway.
Got it.
So your argument is that we are shitty drafters, and the solution is that we should just waste our higher draft picks on players that won't turn out anyway.
Got it.
Proven fact that a huge part of the Browns problems since 1999 have been atrocious draft day decisions, I won't reiterate them, but I'll be happy to point out the future Hall of Famers and multiple Pro Bowl selections that were still within easy reach when we drafted if you'd like. .
The rest of your statement is a non-sequitur. However, Lombardi (Mr Shit track record drafter) may continue the trend.
Now kindly kindly answer how many of the Browns defense would have a shot at starting on Seattle's. I say damn few.
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I can't see the Texans doing anything like that. I could see them picking Manziel with that 1st pick.
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So your argument is that we are shitty drafters, and the solution is that we should just waste our higher draft picks on players that won't turn out anyway.
Got it.
Proven fact that a huge part of the Browns problems since 1999 have been atrocious draft day decisions, I won't reiterate them, but I'll be happy to point out the future Hall of Famers and multiple Pro Bowl selections that were still within easy reach when we drafted if you'd like. .
The rest of your statement is a non-sequitur. However, Lombardi (Mr Shit track record drafter) may continue the trend.
Now kindly kindly answer how many of the Browns defense would have a shot at starting on Seattle's. I say damn few.
Proven fact that a huge part of the Browns problems since 1999 have been atrocious draft day decisions, I won't reiterate them, but I'll be happy to point out the future Hall of Famers and multiple Pro Bowl selections that were still within easy reach when we drafted if you'd like. .
The rest of your statement is a non-sequitur. However, Lombardi (Mr Shit track record drafter) may continue the trend.
Now kindly kindly answer how many of the Browns defense would have a shot at starting on Seattle's. I say damn few.
The schemes are different, but here goes:
Mingo, Sheard and Kruger could all start over at weak side linebacker over Malcolm Smith. All had similar stat lines and played nearly the same amount.
Ward would start over Chancellor. Better stats, similar playing time.
Haden would start at #2, based on stats. But, because of the scheme they run, he wouldn't be considered in a trade. He's simply too small.
Rubin would start on the interior over either Mebane or McDonald. Better stat line.
Desmond Bryant would also get some playing time on the interior.
Those Pro Bowlers and Hall of Famers were available for many other teams as well. As a matter of fact, essentially every Pro Bowler and Hall of Famer not taken in the first round was passed over by every team at least once. So, by that reasoning, every team's scouting department sucks.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Proven fact that a huge part of the Browns problems since 1999 have been atrocious draft day decisions, I won't reiterate them, but I'll be happy to point out the future Hall of Famers and multiple Pro Bowl selections that were still within easy reach when we drafted if you'd like. .
The rest of your statement is a non-sequitur. However, Lombardi (Mr Shit track record drafter) may continue the trend.
Now kindly kindly answer how many of the Browns defense would have a shot at starting on Seattle's. I say damn few.
The schemes are different, but here goes:
Mingo, Sheard and Kruger could all start over at weak side linebacker over Malcolm Smith. All had similar stat lines and played nearly the same amount.
Ward would start over Chancellor. Better stats, similar playing time.
Haden would start at #2, based on stats. But, because of the scheme they run, he wouldn't be considered in a trade. He's simply too small.
Rubin would start on the interior over either Mebane or McDonald. Better stat line.
Desmond Bryant would also get some playing time on the interior.
Those Pro Bowlers and Hall of Famers were available for many other teams as well. As a matter of fact, essentially every Pro Bowler and Hall of Famer not taken in the first round was passed over by every team at least once. So, by that reasoning, every team's scouting department sucks.
Those Pro Bowlers and Hall of Famers were available for many other teams as well. As a matter of fact, essentially every Pro Bowler and Hall of Famer not taken in the first round was passed over by every team at least once. So, by that reasoning, every team's scouting department sucks.
Many other teams? BS Not exactly- I have a better memory of Front office flops than you do- the worst passing on LaDanian Tomlinson, who went 2 slots below Gerrad Warren, or Richard Seymour that went three? How about Ed Reed who went 9 slots below Willie Green? Cameron Wimbley or Haloti Ngata- rough decision there. Taking (Known) Butterfingers Braylon when we needed a qb and Aaron fucking Rodgers was there for the taking. Freaking Brady Quinn potentially cost us Percy Harvin and Chris Johnson. I could go on- but you'd probably accuse me of 20\20 hindsight. That's just first round, and one second. You want to talk lower rounds- it's comical. Wazzits his name that landed in jail before he could even suit up. Yeah- we had a shot at Tom Brady, but decided to take Spurgon Wynn a couple of picks ahead. I call that shit drafting.
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We had a shot at Tom Brady. Yes since he went in the what sixth round that means that he was passed on nearly 200 times. So there are 32 or so front offices who are made up of fucking idiots. So what?
WSS
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Actually, Hoorta is exactly right. The Browns, for whatever stupid reasons, have made stupid ass
draft decisions over the years.
I blame it on the front offices, and the likes of guys like Savage and Scumbardi, and the rest,
who draft based on statistics, and maybe a little video.
Then the guys they drafted get to the NFL, like Robieski, and wimp out. Prima donnas like Braylon
and Winslow never "get it" team wise, and for years they kept ignoring the offensive line, and as much
as I don't want to ruin my breakfast, they drafted Junkin, the "mad dog in a meat market" whatever,
and that 4th round pick linebacker that Hoorta referred to, who never even got to the
Browns because of legal trouble.
That's where the Browns were for years - stupid ass talent choices that didn't pan out, again and again and again.
The Browns finally have a nice core of starting talent, and they still keep firing head coaches despite
not having quite enough talent to win with injuries to Hoyer, Lewis and whoever it it has been.
Teams that draft the college players who are smart, tough, love the game and are great additions
to the locker room with solid work eithic, do well. Teams like the Browns, keep drafting worse than
half the guys on this board could have done.
Drafting based on media hype, stats and all just ignores what is critical - drafting players who
are hungry, and have enough character to work hard, play hard, and be great additions to
the team on and off the field. One of the Seahawks even said it in an interview - the Seahawks
draft the same kind of guys to make a team.
Mistakes are made, sure. But the Browns have upgraded their talent appraisal more intelligently.
More needs to be done.
You draft a player, you need to look at the heart and mind of the player - because those things
drive everything else. If the Browns had done that, they would have picked Reed over Green.
They would have picked Tomlinson over Warren. If a player doesn't have the heart for the game,
pretty much says that they won't really take that next step up to the NFL. Just like freakin Robieski,
and so many others.
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[quote name="Tim Couch Pulls Out" post="384128" timestamp="
He was a career backup who flamed out in Arizona, then put together two decent games here against two defenses starting backup and nickel cornerbacks. Let's not proclaim him to be anything else.
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I would. And I would take Bortles. And then Davante Adams. And then Louchiez Purifoy in the second. And Andre Williams in the third. And then I would take Boyd in the fourth.
Well you were making sense and then you said you would trade make that trade to move up to 1 to get Bortles.
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Who believes the Texans will go quarterback with the number one pick?
Let's say we believe them and they are focused on Johnny Manziel. Okay.
We give up two first-round picks and our best hope at a successful quarterback.
Of course some may hope that last season was a flash in the pan and Brian Hoyer sucks.
Or you may roll the dice that Brandon Weeden and Jason Campbell are actually bonafide starters.
Or you might risk starting Johnny football on day one. He will be playing with the same team that Weeden and Campbell had to work with last year.
Now take note of the fact that our defense lost us many games last year. I forget the exact number but I think it's 8, that we were either tied or ahead and lost.
The cardiac arrest kids.
Unless there is a miracle on the defensive side of the ball you must then assume that Johnny football will put up enough numbers as a rookie to compensate for that.
WSS
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Yeah...good idea. Trade the only qb that the team responded to since 1999, along with our other draft picks to pick a Colt McCoy clone first overall. Yep...that will insure that we'll get the first pick in 2015, too. That way we can screw all these #1 draft picks up, and continue with our tradition. IDIOTS!!
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@mike-h said:
Bold text negates your entire argument about waiting to draft a QB. It works both ways, and the majority of the time, it's better to choose a QB early, rather than wait and rely on guys like Frye and McCoy.
Common sense is hard to drive through to an old and stubborn man like yourself. Even when you're wrong, you'd never admit it because you can keep typing the same thing 100 different ways until you convince yourself you're still right.
For the record, I like Blake Bortles and Teddy B, not Manziel, you stupid motherfucker
As Cal said, you're missing my main point. Not where you draft,it's HOW you draft. He did jog my memory on how badly the Browns have missed- not only in the first round, but in the second and third. Those are the "premium picks" and the Browns have generally drafted turds there of late.
The Aaron Rodgers thing was a fluke, Tom Brady was a fluke, Richard Sherman was a fluke. The Browns had an end of the road Trent Dilfer at qb, nice time to start thinking about the future, no?
Oh, and incidentally the year before (though some here don't like his off-field antics) I was screaming for the Browns to take Ben Rothlisberger instead of Kellen Winslow. Butch Davis couldn't draft enough guys from Miami, most of which turned out to be major busts.
Missed out on two stud qbs, a HOF RB & safety - shit drafting my friend- you want to refute that?
Bortles & Brigewater I can live with MIke- and I'm actually slightly warming to Manziel- just no dumb ass trade up- one of the three is certain to be there, though I have doubts about all of them.
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I wonder how many teams that draft in the top 10 just about every year have gone since 1999 without drafting a top 10 quarterback? That's like 15 drafts ago.
Generally when you suck, it means you don't have a quarterback. And you should draft the best one you can because without a great one, nothing else much matters.
THAT'S the Browns biggest problem. They've had corners and centers and RBs and WRs and pass rushers and just about everything else... but never a great QB.
Also wonder if we're last in Passer Rating over that time. We have to be in the bottom few.
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So which one is a great quarterback? I say draft him!
WSS
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Yeah...good idea. Trade the only qb that the team responded to since 1999, along with our other draft picks to pick a Colt McCoy clone first overall. Yep...that will insure that we'll get the first pick in 2015, too. That way we can screw all these #1 draft picks up, and continue with our tradition. IDIOTS!!
Yeah...good idea. Trade the only qb that the team responded to since 1999, along with our other draft picks to pick a Colt McCoy clone first overall. Yep...that will insure that we'll get the first pick in 2015, too. That way we can screw all these #1 draft picks up, and continue with our tradition. IDIOTS!!
how is Manziel a McCoy clone? Manziel has a much better arm and better mobility. While I agree that trading up to land him would be questionable at best, if this FO believes they have to trade up to land 'their guy', regardless of who it may be, then they have to make the trade.
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I wonder how many teams that draft in the top 10 just about every year have gone since 1999 without drafting a top 10 quarterback? That's like 15 drafts ago.
Generally when you suck, it means you don't have a quarterback. And you should draft the best one you can because without a great one, nothing else much matters.
THAT'S the Browns biggest problem. They've had corners and centers and RBs and WRs and pass rushers and just about everything else... but never a great QB.
Also wonder if we're last in Passer Rating over that time. We have to be in the bottom few.
They've had corners and centers and RBs and WRs and pass rushers and just about everything else... but never a great QB.
since '99 how many corners and RBs and WRs and pass rushers have worked out?
i could name all on one hand and 2 or 3 are on this team now. so it's not just QB.
terrible scouting and drafting since 1999.
sounds like a bad beer slogan.
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The truth is this organization has been a shit tornado since 99 so you really can't go back and claim we should have drafted so and so. Chances are if we'd had taken Roethlisberger and Pittsburgh taken Winslow then Roelisberger would probably be an unemployed never was and Winslow might be considered one of the greats.
It varies by position but most of the time it takes an exceptional player to transcend a failing organizations limitations.
It's a team game, not the NBA, most successful draft picks are put into the right scenario the right system with a strong supporting cast to supplement their talents.
Our high selections have been at a disadvantage off the bat since 99 because this organization is a shit storm, they could be golden but sooner or later they'll be swallowed up in this storm and covered in shit.
"All Truth Passes Through Three stages. First, It Is Ridiculed, Second It Is Violently Opposed, And Third, It Is Accepted As Self-Evident" ~Arthur Schopenhauer -
They wouldn't be moving the #1 for him, they would be moving the #1 for him plus.
The Trade Value chart says that the #1 overall pick is worth 3000 pts.
#4 overall is worth 1800.
So, we trade #4.....that is 1800. The DATs would want another 1200 in value. What value does Hoyer bring to chop from that 1200 pt. deficit? Even the #26 pick only chops 700.
Hell, they would probably want Hoyer, #4, #26 and then some.
I wouldn't do it.....but I don't trust Lombardi not to be so stupid.
He was talking about picking #1 AND #4 though, giving them #26 and whatever other picks.
@mike-h said:
I like Hoyer, but I would love it just to hear the crying.
So your Masters is in Sadomasochism?
He was talking about picking #1 AND #4 though, giving them #26 and whatever other picks.
Be still my heart...
I know some of you think that there are no franchise qbs in this class, but if Bridgewater/ Bortles don't prove the skeptics wrong I'll eat a clump of my own hair.
Pubic?
Foles because people mistook his 40 time for a lack of mobility... and he's actually plenty mobile and athletic.
Welcome back, stranger...
I thought the knock on Foles was a "party-boy/ work-ethic" thing.
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I wonder how many teams that draft in the top 10 just about every year have gone since 1999 without drafting a top 10 quarterback? That's like 15 drafts ago.
Generally when you suck, it means you don't have a quarterback. And you should draft the best one you can because without a great one, nothing else much matters.
THAT'S the Browns biggest problem. They've had corners and centers and RBs and WRs and pass rushers and just about everything else... but never a great QB.
Also wonder if we're last in Passer Rating over that time. We have to be in the bottom few.
I wonder how many teams that draft in the top 10 just about every year have gone since 1999 without drafting a top 10 quarterback? That's like 15 drafts ago.
Generally when you suck, it means you don't have a quarterback. And you should draft the best one you can because without a great one, nothing else much matters.
THAT'S the Browns biggest problem. They've had corners and centers and RBs and WRs and pass rushers and just about everything else... but never a great QB.
Also wonder if we're last in Passer Rating over that time. We have to be in the bottom few.
They've had exactly one pro bowl corner- Haden, one of the few good picks they've made. The RBs were FAs or trades. Willie Green ring a bell? How about Travis Prentice? Got a good year or two out of Butterfingers Brayon and Knieviel Winslow- that doesn't make up for Mohammed Massive Drop, or Slowbiski. The Browns have made exactly one other solid pick at draft position- Joe Thomas, and one "steal" Josh Gordon. I expect better. No qb? Because Butchie had a serious hardon for Knieviel, when he should have taken Ben? Or we take Butterfingers instead of Rodgers? Sorry, we've had multiple opportunities- and not just in the first round to rectify the qb situation.
The truth is this organization has been a shit tornado since 99 so you really can't go back and claim we should have drafted so and so. Chances are if we'd had taken Roethlisberger and Pittsburgh taken Winslow then Roelisberger would probably be an unemployed never was and Winslow might be considered one of the greats. It varies by position but most of the time it takes an exceptional player to transcend a failing organizations limitations. It's a team game, not the NBA, most successful draft picks are put into the right scenario the right system with a strong supporting cast to supplement their talents. Our high selections have been at a disadvantage off the bat since 99 because this organization is a shit storm, they could be golden but sooner or later they'll be swallowed up in this storm and covered in shit.
To a point- Joe Thomas has made the Pro Bowl every year he's been in the league- though really he didn't deserve it this year. Haden and Gordon made it out of the muck this year too, and deservedly so.
But it's the same reason Jack Ham is in the HOF and Clay Matthews isn't. Switch teams and Clay is in long ago, and Ham isn't.
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Yeah...good idea. Trade the only qb that the team responded to since 1999, along with our other draft picks to pick a Colt McCoy clone first overall. Yep...that will insure that we'll get the first pick in 2015, too. That way we can screw all these #1 draft picks up, and continue with our tradition. IDIOTS!!
how is Manziel a McCoy clone? Manziel has a much better arm and better mobility. While I agree that trading up to land him would be questionable at best, if this FO believes they have to trade up to land 'their guy', regardless of who it may be, then they have to make the trade.
Okay...I really don't know how good Manziel will be, but the point is...nobody does. Hoyer is unproven, also, for the most part, but he has won 2 games in the NFL. My approach would be to stay at #4, and see who is available. I wouldn't even draft a qb at #4...I would wait until the second round. or later. Every year there is someone who comes up big in the later rounds. If Lomardi is such a genius, let him figure out who that is. I can't believe, that if you do the research you can't have a good draft. The problem here is that nobody does the actual work it takes to find the guy. They just go through the motions....they're not going to be held accountable anyway. If we trade Hoyer, then here we are...again...Weeden, Campbell, a rookie or maybe Kirk Cousins instead of Campbell. I can't really get too excited about that.how is Manziel a McCoy clone? Manziel has a much better arm and better mobility. While I agree that trading up to land him would be questionable at best, if this FO believes they have to trade up to land 'their guy', regardless of who it may be, then they have to make the trade.
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