My Take on the Browns 2009 Draft
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@shepwrite said:
I like Curry, but only inside... and it feels a bit like a safe pick. I just can't seem to get super fired up about it, probably because SILB isn't much of a glamor position. I really thought we'd filled it with Beau Bell, a thick tough guy who would do that dirty work to free up Jackson to pad his tackle total even more. And remember, DQJ led the NFL in tackles AND had 3 picks. He's good.Whenever I read about Rey being a thug against the run, a guy who loves to blow up blockers, I think: That's the guy. But certainly not at 5... more like 15 if he's still there.
I like the way you think on the Brinkley pick in round 3, which makes more sense in a Steeler-ey kind of way. JJ, what separates Brinkley from Bell? Just Bell's knee and diminished quicks? Or is Brinkley better? If so, I like it, especially with an Everette Brown pick that moves Wimbley to the strong side... and a tailback in round 2.
All of this demands that we address offense (center and WR) in free agency. And probably again in round 4. Oh, and it demands that a pick comes in the door for Anderson.
Great stuff, JJ. Unlike my certifiable friend Heck, you didn't even mention Raji. Which is just lunacy with Rogers and Rubin.
The thing is, if you believe that the SILB position is the key position of need, again there are better candidates than Curry. And I believe it is one of the key positions the Browns need to upgrade in '09. The argument can be made that WILB is also a position of need... But, right now, Jackson's the best of the bunch, and you probably want to address other areas before you worry about replacing the second best player on your defense, even if he's not an ideal fit.
To your point, Maualuga is much better option for the Browns today.. The upside with Rey is you could slot him in at the strong with the knowledge that he may eventually unseat Jackson at the Mike. Let him bang around a couple of seasons, turn him loose when Jackson leaves via free agency, then re-slot the strong side backer position. It's a workable plan. And precisely what Mangini did with David Harris last season. Harris will be the starting WILB in '09, but he paid his dues in '08.
I'm not sure I could find fault with the Browns jockeying to get Maualuga.
And on Raji... no, no, no. Being the best pure NT in the draft does not make you a #1 pick. He's too short, too round, and plays with poor leverage too often. He's Babatunde Oshinowo minus 30 IQ points. Pass!
As far as Bell v. Brinkley... there isn't a lot to go on. Bell couldn't get himself on the field with the Browns in '08. And there's precious little tape from UNLV to go on. But, he has two things working against him:
1.) The knee: At his position you worry less about his mobility and more about his faith in the joint. It's a leverage thing. At the strong side backer he has to be able to face up a blocker, get his shins parallel with his forearms and explode into a guard or fullback. If he's got any misgivings about the solvency of that knee, he's going to rotate his trunk to protect it. When he does that he gives up his leverage position and is reduced to guessing which side to pivot to.
2.) Well... rumor has it that Beau isn't exactly a quick study. He's a thinker rather than a doer, and... well... his thinker isn't exactly the highest function organ in his body.
Brinkley, on the other hand, is a bit bigger guy. He's just built on a larger frame. It's subtle, but you have to look at the way Brinkley uses his extension to create separation at the point of attack. He's not a sideline to sideline defender, but is as strong LB as there is in the draft when it comes to mixing it up in the pit.
He's also shown a willingness to play his role inside the defensive scheme. He's a team guy that players and coaches love. He may not be the most athletically gifted, but he's not a liability if you confine his role. He'll likely be on the sideline on 3rd down. But he could be an asset in turning a lot of first-and-tens into second and nines.
-jj
And on Raji... no, no, no. Being the best pure NT in the draft does not make you a #1 pick. He's too short, too round, and plays with poor leverage too often. He's Babatunde Oshinowo minus 30 IQ points. Pass!
Completely disagree with this. I think he's more Vince Wilfork than Baba Oshinowo. Not really interested in him at 5, but I think someone's going to end up with a solid NT.
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And on Raji... no, no, no. Being the best pure NT in the draft does not make you a #1 pick. He's too short, too round, and plays with poor leverage too often. He's Babatunde Oshinowo minus 30 IQ points. Pass!
Completely disagree with this. I think he's more Vince Wilfork than Baba Oshinowo. Not really interested in him at 5, but I think someone's going to end up with a solid NT.
Aloysius said:
Completely disagree with this. I think he's more Vince Wilfork than Baba Oshinowo. Not really interested in him at 5, but I think someone's going to end up with a solid NT.Yes, although I'm impressed with this new addition to Draftnikville, that comparison is pretty shoddy. Baba never dominated the Senior Bowl. Baba wasn't even asked to come to the Senior Bowl. I'm not even sure he was asked to come to the Shrine Game. Baba has never played a meaningful down of NFL football, has been waived by three teams, and is sitting on the Eagles practice squad.
Meanwhile, Raji is projected to be picked ahead of where Hampton (#19) and Wilfork (#21) were.
Which is why I'd compare him to Casey Hampton or Vince Wilfork.
PS - I don't mind riding this Raji train solo. More room for my harem.
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Aloysius said:
Completely disagree with this. I think he's more Vince Wilfork than Baba Oshinowo. Not really interested in him at 5, but I think someone's going to end up with a solid NT.Yes, although I'm impressed with this new addition to Draftnikville, that comparison is pretty shoddy. Baba never dominated the Senior Bowl. Baba wasn't even asked to come to the Senior Bowl. I'm not even sure he was asked to come to the Shrine Game. Baba has never played a meaningful down of NFL football, has been waived by three teams, and is sitting on the Eagles practice squad.
Meanwhile, Raji is projected to be picked ahead of where Hampton (#19) and Wilfork (#21) were.
Which is why I'd compare him to Casey Hampton or Vince Wilfork.
PS - I don't mind riding this Raji train solo. More room for my harem.
Baba wasn't even asked to come to the Senior Bowl.
Huh? He was an invite to the 2006 senior bowl and played in it. He was viewed as the 4th best DT there. Scouting report from there was: Noted for being strong at the point of attack, he can hold up against double-teams. Looked good at Senior Bowl; plays with discipline and a desire to succeed. Career totals include 130 tackles, 30 tackles for loss, and 15 sacks. Most of his success, however, came against weaker opponents.
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Baba struggled in one on one drills at the Senior Bowl.
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Good discussion.
I agree a trade down would be the ideal. This draft isn't all that top heavy but offers much depth through maybe the early 3rd round. The players maybe worth the 5th pick seem to be players we won't take. Crabtree is one mentioned...I also think a few of the O-linemen would be worth the pick but I get hammered when I mention that around here...so I won't...or I just do that?
Every draft seems to produce a slot somewhere in the top 6-7 picks that seems to be the key spot where teams looking to move up feel like they need to go....and this year 5 looks like it has the chance to be that spot.
OTs usually generate a lot of interest come draft day....and this is a OT draft for the ages.
There seems to be 2-3 teams directly behind us who may be looking for line help...anybody behind them who wants one of those big OTs is going to have to move in front of them...lets hope that is where we come in!!
Good discussion.
I agree a trade down would be the ideal. This draft isn't all that top heavy but offers much depth through maybe the early 3rd round. The players maybe worth the 5th pick seem to be players we won't take. Crabtree is one mentioned...I also think a few of the O-linemen would be worth the pick but I get hammered when I mention that around here...so I won't...or I just do that?
Every draft seems to produce a slot somewhere in the top 6-7 picks that seems to be the key spot where teams looking to move up feel like they need to go....and this year 5 looks like it has the chance to be that spot.
OTs usually generate a lot of interest come draft day....and this is a OT draft for the ages.
There seems to be 2-3 teams directly behind us who may be looking for line help...anybody behind them who wants one of those big OTs is going to have to move in front of them...lets hope that is where we come in!!
Peen ...last year was the OT draft of the ages....same with Running back....Jj no answer, come on
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And on Raji... no, no, no. Being the best pure NT in the draft does not make you a #1 pick. He's too short, too round, and plays with poor leverage too often. He's Babatunde Oshinowo minus 30 IQ points. Pass!
Completely disagree with this. I think he's more Vince Wilfork than Baba Oshinowo. Not really interested in him at 5, but I think someone's going to end up with a solid NT.
Aloysius said:
Completely disagree with this. I think he's more Vince Wilfork than Baba Oshinowo. Not really interested in him at 5, but I think someone's going to end up with a solid NT.Even if I'm dead wrong on Raji (which is distinctly possible)... why would you burn a #1 pick on a back up for the best player on your defense? QB is really the only position in the NFL that you can afford to draft a 1 or 2 year backup near the top of the draft.
The Browns right now have Rubin under contract and a decent chance of retaining Louis Leonard, who's shown some upside as well. It's arguably the deepest most talented position on the defense.
I just don't see it addressing it in the first round
-jj
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I can't say last years draft was one for the ages at RB. 3 rookie RB ended up in the top 10 for yards (Slaton, Forte, and Johnson). But that isn't the first time it has ever happened. Time will shake out how great the RB class really was.
Masters said:
I can't say last years draft was one for the ages at RB. 3 rookie RB ended up in the top 10 for yards (Slaton, Forte, and Johnson). But that isn't the first time it has ever happened. Time will shake out how great the RB class really was.I am really interested and kindof scared to see Mendenhall two times a year, Ray rice is a damn good Back, Jonathan Stewart is an animal, Kevin Smith came on strong in the end for Detroit but to no fanfair, Seven running backs with significant PT, save Mendenhall... Oh yeah and the guy I wanted in the fourth Tashard Choice had 100 yards in his only start....against Pittsburgh! For the ages.....oh and forgot about Mcfadden and Felix Jones......
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Oh, I stand corrected. I went looking for him at the Shrine game and didn't find him and assumed he wasn't at the Senior Bowl at all. My bad.
Still don't like the comparison.
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I love the topic and opinions and agree that there is only one guy worthy of a #5 pick and that is Crabtree and maybe the OL Moore. One of the reasons I posted the topic of best available vs drafting for need.
Crabtree being available may be an option to trade down and I also think that one of the QBs being available may also be an option. Regardless of what SF is saying, they want a franchise QB. I believe if Sanchez slides to #5 they would be very interested because they wouldn't want TB or Minn to make a trade to jump ahead of them.
There is a long way to go until draft day. There is the combine and also pro days and especially FA. Our draft may well be dictated by what we do or don't do in FA.
I stated yesterday that I believe that Everette Brown is the biggest impact 3-4 front 7 player in the draft. After the combine and his pro day, he may very well draw even with Curry as the best defensive player available to us. I personally wouldn't take Curry unless I was sure that he could play the SILB position. Everette Brown or Maybin are much better choices for a pass rushing OLB in this draft.
Balt is about the same as us as far as cap space and I believe it is impossible for them to sign their Center, Safety and all 3 LBs. So, I think a Bart Scott may be one of the odd men out. I'd take him and move to acquire some more draft choices and be very happy. (Well throw in a safety also and I'd be very, very happy).
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Masters said:
I can't say last years draft was one for the ages at RB. 3 rookie RB ended up in the top 10 for yards (Slaton, Forte, and Johnson). But that isn't the first time it has ever happened. Time will shake out how great the RB class really was.I am really interested and kindof scared to see Mendenhall two times a year, Ray rice is a damn good Back, Jonathan Stewart is an animal, Kevin Smith came on strong in the end for Detroit but to no fanfair, Seven running backs with significant PT, save Mendenhall... Oh yeah and the guy I wanted in the fourth Tashard Choice had 100 yards in his only start....against Pittsburgh! For the ages.....oh and forgot about Mcfadden and Felix Jones......
I am really interested and kindof scared to see Mendenhall two times a year, Ray rice is a damn good Back, Jonathan Stewart is an animal, Kevin Johnson came on strong in the end for Detroit but to no fanfair, Seven running backs with significant PT, save Mendenhall... Oh yeah and the guy I wanted in the fourth Tashard Choice had 100 yards in his only start....against Pittsburgh! For the ages.....oh and forgot about Mcfadden and Felix Jones......
It may end up that way, but it's just too early to tell imo.
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Heading into the spring of 2009, it seems Cleveland fans are once again becoming dazzled with with the riches another NFL Draft promises. Frankly, what else do we have to do with our January's around here? My fear (perhaps that's too strong a word) is that the pending college cattle auction will leave said fans in a state of numbing malaise. I caution you... fear not. The more uneventful the 2009 Draft appears for the Browns on Draft Day, the better off they'll likely be.
Trading out of the top of the draft never thrills the fans, but the Browns need to run screaming from the #5 pick they find themselves with. Outside of Michael Crabtree, there isn't a top 5 pick in this litter. Period. Based on sheer talent, they could probably start this draft at number 11 or 12. But I digress (frequently).
If George Kokinis is worth his salt, he'll spend the better part of the next 2 months calling all 27 teams picking behind him (and maybe the other 4 as well... 'cause moving to the top of round 2 isn't out of the question), and trying to unload that number 5 pick. If Michael Crabtree falls to 5? Well... then... raise the price and call 'em again.
Admittedly, I'd be tempted to take Crabtree if he's there. But, you must weigh the fact that his mere presence more than doubles the value of that pick. And the players the Browns "need" (there's that ugly word), are scattered throughout the draft board. You have to remember, in this day and age, it's often more important to get "your" guy, instead of getting "the" guy.
Nobody asked me, but I would advise the Browns to steer well clear of Aaron Curry. Curry is a fine player. But he's not enough of anything to fill the Browns need for edge personnel in the 3-4. He's not dynamic enough to be a significant upgrade over Wimbley, and doesn't show the strength and leverage to play his opposite. He's a talent to be sure, but pass.
Even if the governing opinion is that Kam Wimbley can elevate his play to be a dangerous pass rusher, Curry is not your answer. The Browns need to start their search for a strong sider with Brian Cushing... but don't stop there. Cushing's a bit better playing off the line. But he is a lunch-pale type. Cushing's performance and pedigree could have him going mid-first round. The problem here, is that the Browns have little hope of mining 1st round value out of Cushing given the fact that he's a bit of a mismatch for the position he'll be asked to play. If he wows 'em at the workouts and in the interview room, maybe you take a good hard look at Cushing. But, I'm afraid the Cleveland brass is going to have to dig deeper if they're going to find a legitimate strong side backer in this draft.
Now that being said, if the Browns can wiggle their way back toward the middle of the 1st round, there may be a better solution. Florida State's Everette Brown could offer the Browns the opportunity to move Wimbley to the strong side, where his strength and leverage could be put to better use (if not to cover up for a lack of pass rushing ingenuity). Brown is a pass rusher plain and simple. He is arguably the best pure pass rusher in the draft -- Great quicks, and a spin move that would make Karl Wallenda dizzy. The presence of Brown on the roster makes the Browns better... and first round pick better.
The only other prospect the Browns should consider should they draft in the teens is LSU DE Tyson Jackson. And that's going to be highly dependent on what they find out in the interviews. 3-4 DE is not a glamour job, and Jackson has been known to be a bit of a glamour player. So, he may disqualify himself. But he is an interesting prospect. Is he the next Richard Seymour? I'm going to go ahead and doubt it. But, even a poor-man's Richard Seymour is worth a look in the middle of Round 1.
Now, if the Browns work all the way back into the 20's, Brown and Jackson will be long gone. The boys in brown will then have to turn their attention to the other side of the ball. Early estimates show the bottom of the first round will likely have available two or three impact rookies on offense that fit need areas for the Browns. RB Chris Wells, and WR Hakeem Nicks at the skill positions and C Alex Mack, and T Michael Oher up front.
Wells' durability concerns have hurt his draft status, but has the body and talent to be a dominant cold-weather back when healthy. Nicks is meaty receiver who plays physically and catches the ball with his hands. He hasn't shown great speed on film, but gets good separation, and rarely drops a ball he should catch. He's a bit of a gamble in round 1, and you probably don't consider him if Wells is still on the board. But he's a player to pay attention to particularly if his combine numbers (he projects upper 4.5 ish) start him falling toward Round 2.
Michael Oher is an enigma... the subject of an fantastic novel by Michael Lewis (the author of Moneyball), Oher was, uh, let's just say, not under review for a Rhodes scholarship. However, he has all the physical tools of a dominant left tackle in the NFL. He may be better suited to RT in the NFL where he can spend more time run blocking, and benefit from the extra personnel when picking up some of the more exotic blitz schemes common in the League.
Mack may be the safest pick of the group. He's strong, tough, smart, and the best pure center in the draft since Mangold, and some say better. It just ain't glamorous to pick a center with your #1... which may make it just the right one... see what I mean about boring?
As you move into Round 2 and beyond, you have to understand that at this point in the winter, the guys projected from the top of Round 2 to the bottom of Round 4 will shuffle around like a deck of cards. So I'll leave you with a couple of names to watch for. Guys whose play has shown them to be "Mangini" guys.
SILB Jasper Brinkley - South Carolina: A custom built Sam with a strong frame and good skills. He's got the tenacity and humility to play the position the way it's drawn up and could be a steal in Round 3-4.
SOLB Michael Johnson - Georgia Tech: A nasty cuss of a hybrid DE/OLB. He's got all kinds of flashes, but lacks consistency. The structure of the 3-4 may accentuate his skills, if it doesn't frustrate him in its limitations.
S William Moore - Missouri: A bit of a vanilla safety. Studious and sound. He's what I call a stealth tackler. Where some guys like to blow up running backs exiting the line, William has a tendency to drop them to the grass without making any noise. This is not the kind of guy who strikes fear in the hearts of wideouts. But he always seems to be where the ball is. Do you see this "boring" thing happening here...
WR Ramses Barden - Cal Poly: Uhhh... big, really big. Runs well, catches the ball. And he's big. Did I say that?
Anyway... just some food for thought I hope. I purposely avoided the running backs who will have to separate themselves with the stopwatch in the coming months. But there are some guys out there that already bear noting. Ooh, one obscure one to keep an eye on LB Aaron Clark from Virginia. May miss the draft workouts with the injury that ended his senior season. He'll be looking to catch on with a 3-4 team as an OLB. Just a note.
-jj
SOLB Michael Johnson - Georgia Tech: A nasty cuss of a hybrid DE/OLB. He's got all kinds of flashes, but lacks consistency. The structure of the 3-4 may accentuate his skills, if it doesn't frustrate him in its limitations.
No doubt this guy has immense potential, but I don't think I'll ever get past seeing him get absolutely mauled by a a freshman 280 pound FSU offensive tackle.
At this point, he's definitely not not strong enough to play 4-3 DE...and may be too weak to be an effective 3-4 OLB.
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what separates Brinkley from Bell?
Not to sound like a ass......the SEC??
Good in the SEC is a little different than good in the mountain west or whatever conference Nevada is in.
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I see that Scouts, Inc. has moved him up to the #3 overall prospect, so I'm not the only one who's feeling the Raji love. You couldn't separate the two of us with a crowbar, Shep. I'd give B.J. a B.J. - that's how in the tank I am.
I'm drafting Curry if he's there, but I'm convinced he's not going to be.
And I'll add my two cents to the Everette Browns talk: when it's all said and done I don't think he's going to be viewed as a 3-4 OLB, but a 4-3 end for teams like Indy and Philly. Just my feeling from watching him.
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I agree about Brown being better suited for Tampa 2 DE/Jim Johnson rush end. The coaches at FSU would even sometimes slide him in to DT on passing downs, allowing him to use his quicks to get around interior linemen.
That said, I'm starting to think that some team will be convinced that he's a perfect fit for 3-4 OLB. I think he's a better version of Gaines Adams, but his workout numbers will have some thinking DeMarcus Ware.
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I am really interested and kindof scared to see Mendenhall two times a year, Ray rice is a damn good Back, Jonathan Stewart is an animal, Kevin Johnson came on strong in the end for Detroit but to no fanfair, Seven running backs with significant PT, save Mendenhall... Oh yeah and the guy I wanted in the fourth Tashard Choice had 100 yards in his only start....against Pittsburgh! For the ages.....oh and forgot about Mcfadden and Felix Jones......
It may end up that way, but it's just too early to tell imo.
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I agree about Brown being better suited for Tampa 2 DE/Jim Johnson rush end. The coaches at FSU would even sometimes slide him in to DT on passing downs, allowing him to use his quicks to get around interior linemen.
That said, I'm starting to think that some team will be convinced that he's a perfect fit for 3-4 OLB. I think he's a better version of Gaines Adams, but his workout numbers will have some thinking DeMarcus Ware.
Aloysius said:
I agree about Brown being better suited for Tampa 2 DE/Jim Johnson rush end. The coaches at FSU would even sometimes slide him in to DT on passing downs, allowing him to use his quicks to get around interior linemen.That said, I'm starting to think that some team will be convinced that he's a perfect fit for 3-4 OLB. I think he's a better version of Gaines Adams, but his workout numbers will have some thinking DeMarcus Ware.
Brown is 6' 4" and 250 lbs. Just about the same size as Cushing, Maybin, Orakpo and Sintim. All are within an inch and 5 lbs of each other. Why would you think he is better suited for a 4-3 DE. Many list him as the best pass rusher in the draft and project him as a Suggs type of pass rusher. I think he is more like Suggs then Gaines Adams.
He will eat the combine up and have 3-4 teams slobbering all over themselves. I think he just may jump right up there with Curry as the best defensive player in the draft.
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Masters said:
It may end up that way, but it's just too early to tell imo.I forgot to mention Tim Hightower.....and Peyton Hillis, Jamaal Charles and Mike Hart....Charles will be someone to watch come next year and Hart is solid bak-up
I forgot to mention Tim Hightower.....and Peyton Hillis, Jamaal Charles and Mike Hart....Charles will be someone to watch come next year and Hart is solid bak-up
To me, mentioning Hightower is like mentioning McClain. They are great at short yardage or ponding it into the endzone from 3 yards out. But after that, they didn't do squat and I don't think they ever will.
Hillis looked pretty good for a bit. Then again, it's DEN. We'll see how he does with a new O, which probably no longer feature the zone blocking scheme Shanahan used for so many years.
The other guys, well I'll have to see what they do when they see real playing time and not just a carry or two.
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I forgot to mention Tim Hightower.....and Peyton Hillis, Jamaal Charles and Mike Hart....Charles will be someone to watch come next year and Hart is solid bak-up
To me, mentioning Hightower is like mentioning McClain. They are great at short yardage or ponding it into the endzone from 3 yards out. But after that, they didn't do squat and I don't think they ever will.
Hillis looked pretty good for a bit. Then again, it's DEN. We'll see how he does with a new O, which probably no longer feature the zone blocking scheme Shanahan used for so many years.
The other guys, well I'll have to see what they do when they see real playing time and not just a carry or two.
Masters said:
To me, mentioning Hightower is like mentioning McClain. They are great at short yardage or ponding it into the endzone from 3 yards out. But after that, they didn't do squat and I don't think they ever will.Hillis looked pretty good for a bit. Then again, it's DEN. We'll see how he does with a new O, which probably no longer feature the zone blocking scheme Shanahan used for so many years.
The other guys, well I'll have to see what they do when they see real playing time and not just a carry or two.
well...together with the others....makes up one hell of a RB draft class in 08'
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