Pluto Article on QB
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It's a sobering stat that the guys winning SB's are often late round picks but land on teams with a solid foundation on both sides of the ball. I don't want a qb with that 1st pick....not when we can't protect him for dick. Not when we can't put a "halfway' respectable running game behind him. Putting a kid out there on day one and basically saying the offense is all on you as his pocket predictably collapses in less than 2.5 seconds on almost every down....disaster.
It's a sobering stat that the guys winning SB's are often late round picks but land on teams with a solid foundation on both sides of the ball. I don't want a qb with that 1st pick....not when we can't protect him for dick. Not when we can't put a "halfway' respectable running game behind him. Putting a kid out there on day one and basically saying the offense is all on you as his pocket predictably collapses in less than 2.5 seconds on almost every down....disaster.
agree 1000%.
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Can I get a fuckin' aye?
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Kinda like Tim Couch
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I like Pluto but that was a hack job. A lot of cherry picking going on.
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I don't know, I think that hoyer proved that a qood QB made the whole Offense look better. And we are 1000 percent better then when Couch was playing.
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I like Pluto but that was a hack job. A lot of cherry picking going on.
I don't think it was a hack job. It was pure fact.
Though, I will say this: I would like to go back a little further to analyze the situation. Lets go back and see who has gone to the SB in a longer period.
In fact, here it is. These are the ONLY QBs taken in the First round of the draft since 1999 to take their team to a Super Bowl, win or lose:
1999 #2 Donovan McNabb
2003 #22 Rex Grossman
2004 #1 Eli Manning
2004 #11 Ben Roethlisberger
2005 #24 Aaron Rodgers
2008 #18 Joe Flacco
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OK, here are the Super Matchups of QBs in terms of where they were taken in the draft:
2013 Russell/ 3rd round vs. Peyton Manning/1st round
2012 Flacco/1st round vs. Kaepernick/2d round
2011 Eli Manning/1st round vs. Brady/6th round
2010 Rodgers/1st round vs. Roethlisberger/1st round
2009 Brees/2d round vs. Peyton Manning/1st round
2008 Roethlisberger/1st round vs. Warner UFA
2007 Eli Manning/1st round vs. Brady/6th round
2006 Peyton Manning/1st round vs. Grossman/1st round
2005 Roethlisbeger/1st round vs. Hasselbeck/6th round
2004 Brady/6th round vs. McNabb/1st round
2003 Brady/6th round vs. Delhomme UFA
2002 Brad Johnson/9th round vs. Gannon/4th round
2001 Brady/6th round vs. Warner UFA
2000 Dilfer/1st round vs. Collins/1st round
Note: those in bold are QBs who were taken in the Top Ten picks of the draft
Of the 28 starting SB QBs, 14, or exactly one-half have been 1st round picks. Of course, that means one-half have not been first round picks. Three were UFAs(counting Warner twice, Delhomme once) One was a 9th rounder....and they don't have 9 rounds any more.
Six were 6th rounders (Brady 5 times, Hasselback once). One third rounder...Russell. Two second rounders....Brees/Kaepernick.
Flacco at the 18th pick, Rodgers at the 24th, and Ben R. (3 times) at #11 are the only 1st round picks taken below #10 overall.
One fourth rounder....Gannon.
The games in italics are the only ones that match a 1st rounder vs. another first rounder.
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Of course he uses facts. I did not argue otherwise. I said he was cherry picking. Do you understand what that means?
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If you went back in time you probably wouldn't take Collins/Dilfer/McNabb in the top 10 either.
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If you went back in time you probably wouldn't take Collins/Dilfer/McNabb in the top 10 either.
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Of course he uses facts. I did not argue otherwise. I said he was cherry picking. Do you understand what that means?
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If you went back in time you probably wouldn't take Collins/Dilfer/McNabb in the top 10 either.
If you went back in time you probably wouldn't take Collins/Dilfer/McNabb in the top 10 either.
Given what was otherwise available in the years they came out I would likely disagree. At least about McNabb and Collins.
McNabb had a near HOF career. And Collins had a very long and productive career and won a ton of games.
Even Dilfer got a Super Bowl win.
If you would guarantee me that the QB we take in the top ten of this next draft would get this team a Super Bowl win, I would take that.
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Okay this is kind of off topic but he was a former #1 pick. I was reading Evan Silva's (Rotoworld) tweets about Sam Bradford and the Browns. He was asking for Browns fan input on whether or not as a fan you would be happy if Cleveland traded a 3rd round pick for Sam Bradford and his $14.15mil contract. If you were to pick a QB in the draft with your #4 pick you could get (Carr or Manziel or Bortles or Bridgewater) + $7mil in future cap space (compared to Bradfords salary). What do you do? I just want to get some input from everyone
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Okay this is kind of off topic but he was a former #1 pick. I was reading Evan Silva's (Rotoworld) tweets about Sam Bradford and the Browns. He was asking for Browns fan input on whether or not as a fan you would be happy if Cleveland traded a 3rd round pick for Sam Bradford and his $14.15mil contract. If you were to pick a QB in the draft with your #4 pick you could get (Carr or Manziel or Bortles or Bridgewater) + $7mil in future cap space (compared to Bradfords salary). What do you do? I just want to get some input from everyone
Okay this is kind of off topic but he was a former #1 pick. I was reading Evan Silva's (Rotoworld) tweets about Sam Bradford and the Browns. He was asking for Browns fan input on whether or not as a fan you would be happy if Cleveland traded a 3rd round pick for Sam Bradford and his $14.15mil contract. If you were to pick a QB in the draft with your #4 pick you could get (Carr or Manziel or Bortles or Bridgewater) + $7mil in future cap space (compared to Bradfords salary). What do you do? I just want to get some input from everyone
I would rather take my chances with fresh blood than to go with Bradford.
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Fair point, Grossi.
What he's forgetting to mention is the fact that the Seahawks, Ravens and 49ers built top defenses all the while having capable QB's handling the reigns in the meantime.
The 49ers had 1st overall pick Alex Smith, who hasn't finished the season with a rating lower than 81 since 2007. They took Kaep as a project QB, tailored the offense to him and eased him in. He wasn't thrown to the wolves immediately.
The Ravens had 3rd overall pick Steve McNair for two years, who's worst season rating of 73.9 is better than any rating Weeden has ever had.
The Seahawks had a decently solid, established veteran in Hasselbeck when Carroll took over. Carroll then tried the Tarvaris Jackson experiment for a season, which yielded better results than anything the Browns have tried in the past 5 years. Then they shelled out big bucks for Flynn before striking gold on Wilson. It's not as if they just sat on their hands and waited for Wilson. The plan was for Flynn all along, Wilson was just a good value pick.
What I'm trying to say is that the Seahawks and 49ers were able to field serviceable talent while building a solid team, and then either got lucky or eased in their QB's.
The Ravens are the only applicable team in this situation, as Flacco was picked to be their guy from the get-go and was handed the reigns immediately. And he was still a mid-1st round pick.
The Browns aren't and haven't been in that position. We've had garbage quarterbacking for the past decade. Our situation isn't like theirs.
There's correlation, I guess. But no causation. Poor reporting, Grossi.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
The bottom line is taking a QB in any draft position you plan to start is a risky proposition. If said QB fails it sets a franchise back 2-3 years if not more depending on the situation.
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Fair point, Grossi.
What he's forgetting to mention is the fact that the Seahawks, Ravens and 49ers built top defenses all the while having capable QB's handling the reigns in the meantime.
The 49ers had 1st overall pick Alex Smith, who hasn't finished the season with a rating lower than 81 since 2007. They took Kaep as a project QB, tailored the offense to him and eased him in. He wasn't thrown to the wolves immediately.
The Ravens had 3rd overall pick Steve McNair for two years, who's worst season rating of 73.9 is better than any rating Weeden has ever had.
The Seahawks had a decently solid, established veteran in Hasselbeck when Carroll took over. Carroll then tried the Tarvaris Jackson experiment for a season, which yielded better results than anything the Browns have tried in the past 5 years. Then they shelled out big bucks for Flynn before striking gold on Wilson. It's not as if they just sat on their hands and waited for Wilson. The plan was for Flynn all along, Wilson was just a good value pick.
What I'm trying to say is that the Seahawks and 49ers were able to field serviceable talent while building a solid team, and then either got lucky or eased in their QB's.
The Ravens are the only applicable team in this situation, as Flacco was picked to be their guy from the get-go and was handed the reigns immediately. And he was still a mid-1st round pick.
The Browns aren't and haven't been in that position. We've had garbage quarterbacking for the past decade. Our situation isn't like theirs.
There's correlation, I guess. But no causation. Poor reporting, Grossi.
Fair point, Grossi.
What he's forgetting to mention is the fact that the Seahawks, Ravens and 49ers built top defenses all the while having capable QB's handling the reigns in the meantime.
The 49ers had 1st overall pick Alex Smith, who hasn't finished the season with a rating lower than 81 since 2007. They took Kaep as a project QB, tailored the offense to him and eased him in. He wasn't thrown to the wolves immediately.
The Ravens had 3rd overall pick Steve McNair for two years, who's worst season rating of 73.9 is better than any rating Weeden has ever had.
The Seahawks had a decently solid, established veteran in Hasselbeck when Carroll took over. Carroll then tried the Tarvaris Jackson experiment for a season, which yielded better results than anything the Browns have tried in the past 5 years. Then they shelled out big bucks for Flynn before striking gold on Wilson. It's not as if they just sat on their hands and waited for Wilson. The plan was for Flynn all along, Wilson was just a good value pick.
What I'm trying to say is that the Seahawks and 49ers were able to field serviceable talent while building a solid team, and then either got lucky or eased in their QB's.
The Ravens are the only applicable team in this situation, as Flacco was picked to be their guy from the get-go and was handed the reigns immediately. And he was still a mid-1st round pick.
The Browns aren't and haven't been in that position. We've had garbage quarterbacking for the past decade. Our situation isn't like theirs.
There's correlation, I guess. But no causation. Poor reporting, Grossi.
Absolutely. I have often said that we should build a very, very solid defense, offensive line/wr/rb set.....then have the QB be the cherry on top to complete the entire team.
The prime example of this was the Steelers of the mid 2000s. They had their defense, offensive line and running game in prime condition when they took BR as their QB......who, though he really was NOT that good of a QB those first 2 years, was still capable enough not to lose games for them....and they went to finish 15-1 his rookie season and won the SB his 2d season.
I mean, this team tried the opposite with Tim Couch......got the cherry, but then the sundae bowl was just filled with mud and gravel underneath. So what good was a cherry.
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Yes. It means you are wrong.
This looks like a textbook example of cherry picking.
Consider this list of names:
• Andrew Luck (#1, 2012, Indianapolis).
• Robert Griffin III (# 2, 2012, Washington).
• Ryan Tannehill (# 8, 2012, Miami).
• Cam Newton (#1, 2011, Carolina).
• Jake Locker (#8, 2011, Tennessee).
• Blaine Gabbert (#10, 2011, Jacksonville).
• Sam Bradford (#1, 2010, St. Louis).
• Matt Stafford (#1, 2009, Detroit).
• Mark Sanchez (#5, 2009, Jets).
• Matt Ryan (#3, 2008, Atlanta).
This is a list of the the quarterbacks among the top 10 picks in the last six drafts.
I made the list covering six years, because no quarterback was in the top 10 in 2013.
What's the point?
OK, answer this question: How many of those quarterbacks have played in a Super Bowl?
That's right -- None.
Here are 10 quarterbacks -- all top 10 draft picks since 2008 -- and not one has reached a Super Bowl. Granted, some have just entered the league in the last few years. But it's still revealing that none instantly turned around a franchise.
He is pointing to a specific stat - 0 SB appearances from top 10 picks in the last six drafts. Then comes to that idiotic conclusion in the bold.
Per wiki - I helped by adding the stuff in () and italics.
Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data (SB appearances) that seem to confirm a particular position (watch out taking those risky top 10 QBs!!!), while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data (like other measures to indicate the franchise instantly turned around, e.i. wins, playoff appearances etc) that may contradict that position. It is a kind of fallacy of selective attention, the most common example of which is the confirmation bias. [1] Cherry picking may be committed intentionally or unintentionally.
If you still think I am wrong, its cool. Figured I owed an explanation after those short posts. You are getting the last word if you want. I wont reply again.
Peace
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Fair point, Grossi.
What he's forgetting to mention is the fact that the Seahawks, Ravens and 49ers built top defenses all the while having capable QB's handling the reigns in the meantime.
The 49ers had 1st overall pick Alex Smith, who hasn't finished the season with a rating lower than 81 since 2007. They took Kaep as a project QB, tailored the offense to him and eased him in. He wasn't thrown to the wolves immediately.
The Ravens had 3rd overall pick Steve McNair for two years, who's worst season rating of 73.9 is better than any rating Weeden has ever had.
The Seahawks had a decently solid, established veteran in Hasselbeck when Carroll took over. Carroll then tried the Tarvaris Jackson experiment for a season, which yielded better results than anything the Browns have tried in the past 5 years. Then they shelled out big bucks for Flynn before striking gold on Wilson. It's not as if they just sat on their hands and waited for Wilson. The plan was for Flynn all along, Wilson was just a good value pick.
What I'm trying to say is that the Seahawks and 49ers were able to field serviceable talent while building a solid team, and then either got lucky or eased in their QB's.
The Ravens are the only applicable team in this situation, as Flacco was picked to be their guy from the get-go and was handed the reigns immediately. And he was still a mid-1st round pick.
The Browns aren't and haven't been in that position. We've had garbage quarterbacking for the past decade. Our situation isn't like theirs.
There's correlation, I guess. But no causation. Poor reporting, Grossi.
Absolutely. I have often said that we should build a very, very solid defense, offensive line/wr/rb set.....then have the QB be the cherry on top to complete the entire team.
The prime example of this was the Steelers of the mid 2000s. They had their defense, offensive line and running game in prime condition when they took BR as their QB......who, though he really was NOT that good of a QB those first 2 years, was still capable enough not to lose games for them....and they went to finish 15-1 his rookie season and won the SB his 2d season.
I mean, this team tried the opposite with Tim Couch......got the cherry, but then the sundae bowl was just filled with mud and gravel underneath. So what good was a cherry.
I mean, this team tried the opposite with Tim Couch......got the cherry, but then the sundae bowl was just filled with mud and gravel underneath. So what good was a cherry.
I hear ya there. Like the one stinking year I DIDNT want the Browns to take a QB top 10 is the year they did!
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