Jonathan Paul Manziel
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An example of Manziel getting pressured and having to play in bad weather (Cleveland has that in spades).
Yep he got pressured quite a bit, alot of missed assignments from the o-line.
Weather didn't look to bad, might of been a little cold.
what was your critique of Manziel
Yep he got pressured quite a bit, alot of missed assignments from the o-line.
Weather didn't look to bad, might of been a little cold.
what was your critique of Manziel
The announcers regularly said through the game that the QBs were having issues in that weather. Two SEC QBs having issues due to what looked like just some rain. How will he hack it in Cleveland in weather much worse than that?
Secondly, did he see how often he took off and lobbed passes up for grabs to Evans? SEC defenses had a down year and LSU made Manziel just look like a pretty pedestrian QB.
I will say again, that he very well could end up being a pretty good NFL QB. I just don't get the love heaped on the guy. He has the highest potential for boom or bust amongst the group of QBs.
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@walterwhite said:
After the combine, private work outs, and pro day, Manziel will go 1st overall to The Texans.
They are openly driving the bus, and were all in the back.
Bill O'Brien is not likely going to take a QB like Manziel. But he will certainly let all the other teams who want Manziel to believe that. Hoping someone bites and sends picks their way.
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Maybe the truth is somewhere between that and the other scouting report bashing him as a third round developmental prospect. I'm sure you realize a bunch of respected scouts think he also has a tremendous downside. And really TC, skipping the attitude and just looking at the on field stuff, I can't see this guy as a top 5, much less #1 overall as Kiper has him. We're all entitled to our opinion(s).I feel a lot more confident with Farmer calling the shots than Lombardi. Have this gut feeling the odds of us drafting Johnny Football dropped considerably. I won't burn my season tickets if we do draft him, just cross my fingers and hope for the best.
The problem with the scouting report I just posted...
It was Ben Roethlisberger's from 2004.
I agree, he has downside. Then again, so does everyone. Literally anyone and everyone can bust. But you miss 100% of the shots you never take.
His floor is just as low as Bortles' or Bridgewater's or any other prospect, but I believe his ceiling to be the the highest.
The problem with the scouting report I just posted...
It was Ben Roethlisberger's from 2004.
I agree, he has downside. Then again, so does everyone. Literally anyone and everyone can bust. But you miss 100% of the shots you never take.
His floor is just as low as Bortles' or Bridgewater's or any other prospect, but I believe his ceiling to be the the highest.
Tricky, but HUGE difference- pun intended- is Ben makes Football look like a pipsqueak. Also I was all-in on Rothlisberger- he has a much stronger arm than Manziel. Seeing him complete an insane % of passes when he was at Miami Ohio playing in a damn near hurricane told me all I needed to know about his arm strength.
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The problem with the scouting report I just posted...
It was Ben Roethlisberger's from 2004.
I agree, he has downside. Then again, so does everyone. Literally anyone and everyone can bust. But you miss 100% of the shots you never take.
His floor is just as low as Bortles' or Bridgewater's or any other prospect, but I believe his ceiling to be the the highest.
Tricky, but HUGE difference- pun intended- is Ben makes Football look like a pipsqueak. Also I was all-in on Rothlisberger- he has a much stronger arm than Manziel. Seeing him complete an insane % of passes when he was at Miami Ohio playing in a damn near hurricane told me all I needed to know about his arm strength.
Tricky, but HUGE difference- pun intended- is Ben makes Football look like a pipsqueak. Also I was all-in on Rothlisberger- he has a much stronger arm than Manziel. Seeing him complete an insane % of passes when he was at Miami Ohio playing in a damn near hurricane told me all I needed to know about his arm strength.
Tricky, but HUGE difference- pun intended- is Ben makes Football look like a pipsqueak. Also I was all-in on Rothlisberger- he has a much stronger arm than Manziel. Seeing him complete an insane % of passes when he was at Miami Ohio playing in a damn near hurricane told me all I needed to know about his arm strength.
You're buying into the common misconception that, because Manziel isn't 6'5, he has less-than-average arm strength, which is untrue.
Once again, you're basing your comparison purely based off of size alone. He's not as big as Ben, therefore he's not as good. That is the problem I have.
Pros- His arm strength is above average (contrary to your belief), his mobility is above average, he makes ridiculous plays, he's proven to be an on-field leader, and he played in a big-time conference against big-time defenses and posted great numbers against said defenses.
Cons- He's smaller than ideal, he's proven to be immature off the field, he can make questionable decisions, his footwork can be improved, and he was bailed out by Evans on more than one occasion.
From a scouting standpoint, that's what needs to be considered. That's it.
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Tricky, but HUGE difference- pun intended- is Ben makes Football look like a pipsqueak. Also I was all-in on Rothlisberger- he has a much stronger arm than Manziel. Seeing him complete an insane % of passes when he was at Miami Ohio playing in a damn near hurricane told me all I needed to know about his arm strength.
Tricky, but HUGE difference- pun intended- is Ben makes Football look like a pipsqueak. Also I was all-in on Rothlisberger- he has a much stronger arm than Manziel. Seeing him complete an insane % of passes when he was at Miami Ohio playing in a damn near hurricane told me all I needed to know about his arm strength.
You're buying into the common misconception that, because Manziel isn't 6'5, he has less-than-average arm strength, which is untrue.
Once again, you're basing your comparison purely based off of size alone. He's not as big as Ben, therefore he's not as good. That is the problem I have.
Pros- His arm strength is above average (contrary to your belief), his mobility is above average, he makes ridiculous plays, he's proven to be an on-field leader, and he played in a big-time conference against big-time defenses and posted great numbers against said defenses.
Cons- He's smaller than ideal, he's proven to be immature off the field, he can make questionable decisions, his footwork can be improved, and he was bailed out by Evans on more than one occasion.
From a scouting standpoint, that's what needs to be considered. That's it.
You're buying into the common misconception that, because Manziel isn't 6'5, he has less-than-average arm strength, which is untrue.
Once again, you're basing your comparison purely based off of size alone. He's not as big as Ben, therefore he's not as good. That is the problem I have.
Pros- His arm strength is above average (contrary to your belief), his mobility is above average, he makes ridiculous plays, he's proven to be an on-field leader, and he played in a big-time conference against big-time defenses and posted great numbers against said defenses.
Cons- He's smaller than ideal, he's proven to be immature off the field, he can make questionable decisions, his footwork can be improved, and he was bailed out by Evans on more than one occasion.
From a scouting standpoint, that's what needs to be considered. That's it.
Not being a Manziel fan I still have to say thats right on the money. He actually had more passes over 20 yds and greater accuracy than Bridgewater , Bortles and Carr I believe. The data was posted on Rotoworld.
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Mike @ DBN wrote up a great scouting report on Johnny Football. http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2014/2/17/5416174/browns-potential-draft-pick-profile-johnny-manziel
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Nice write up even if I dont agree with the final grade lol. I believe I am going to write my congressmen and request a bill that strikes the term "Johhny Football" from the English language. I have to think at this point even if you love the guy you are tired of hearing it.
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The rest of the article makes it sound like he'd really like to play in Texas
The rest of the article makes it sound like he'd really like to play in Texas
He is from Texas. I would say that would be pretty normal for most players, wanting to play in their home state.
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Nice write up even if I dont agree with the final grade lol. I believe I am going to write my congressmen and request a bill that strikes the term "Johhny Football" from the English language. I have to think at this point even if you love the guy you are tired of hearing it.
I think he should legally change his name to it hahaha.Nice write up even if I dont agree with the final grade lol. I believe I am going to write my congressmen and request a bill that strikes the term "Johhny Football" from the English language. I have to think at this point even if you love the guy you are tired of hearing it.
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Maybe people are tired of hearing the nickname, jcam, but (and you may not be old enough to remember this) they called Don Mattingly "Donnie Baseball" for a long, long time. So, I wouldn't look forward to it ending anytime soon.
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oh it will end alright. when the guy can't walk anymore, then they'll call him johnny shit in a bag.
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Todays game is all about the mobile, make plays with your feet QB. JM is the next QB up that fits that bill. So run with it if he's there. Move up to get him if we have to. It really only cost us our 4th pick and 26 which was a windfall pick anyway.
Todays game is all about the mobile, make plays with your feet QB. JM is the next QB up that fits that bill. So run with it if he's there. Move up to get him if we have to. It really only cost us our 4th pick and 26 which was a windfall pick anyway.
Really? Take a look at the superbowl QB over the past 10 years.
How many yards did Russell run for in the playoffs? +/- 50 yards. Take a guess.
And oh yes. He didn't win the superbowl MVP. That's rare for the winning team.
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Todays game is all about the mobile, make plays with your feet QB. JM is the next QB up that fits that bill. So run with it if he's there. Move up to get him if we have to. It really only cost us our 4th pick and 26 which was a windfall pick anyway.
Really? Take a look at the superbowl QB over the past 10 years.
How many yards did Russell run for in the playoffs? +/- 50 yards. Take a guess.
And oh yes. He didn't win the superbowl MVP. That's rare for the winning team.
The traditional pocket passers are getting harder and harder to find, well at least the ones who are accurate and smart enough to be successful. With more college teams switching to these spread, read option offenses, more QBs coming out of college are mobile guys. Times are a changin boys. These mobile guys find a little more success early on in their careers because of the threat of running opens things up a little for em. One of these days a guy is gonna figure it out. Hes gonna be Brees throwing the ball, and be mobile, and whoever he plays for will be unstoppable.Really? Take a look at the superbowl QB over the past 10 years.
How many yards did Russell run for in the playoffs? +/- 50 yards. Take a guess.
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Todays game is all about the mobile, make plays with your feet QB. JM is the next QB up that fits that bill. So run with it if he's there. Move up to get him if we have to. It really only cost us our 4th pick and 26 which was a windfall pick anyway.
Really? Take a look at the superbowl QB over the past 10 years.
How many yards did Russell run for in the playoffs? +/- 50 yards. Take a guess.
And oh yes. He didn't win the superbowl MVP. That's rare for the winning team.
Really? Take a look at the superbowl QB over the past 10 years.
How many yards did Russell run for in the playoffs? +/- 50 yards. Take a guess.
And oh yes. He didn't win the superbowl MVP. That's rare for the winning team.
Making plays with your feet isn't the same as running the ball.
If you can honestly sit there and say that Wilson, Roethlisberger and Rodgers don't make plays with their feet, then you're crazy, delusional, or blind.
I think there's a lot of miscommunication on this board. "Mobile" doesn't mean "runner". It means mobile. Personally, I want a quarterback who can extend plays with his feet. That doesn't mean run down field, that means play backyard football like Wilson, Rodgers and Roethlisberger do. That means give your receivers time to get open even when under duress.
I'm tired of seeing our QB get sacked if the blocking isn't absolutely perfect.
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Meh, I don't know. I'm okay with a non-mobile QB pocket passer if he is good enough. Peyton Manning isn't mobile, and I heard somewhere that he's not bad. For those of you who might be tempted and silly enough to say that Wilson beat Manning in the Superbowl, be honest with yourselves now, Russell Wilson being a better QB than Peyton Manning is not how the Seahawks won the Superbowl. If you don't agree that Manning is a better QB than Wilson, then we can't talk anymore.
The logical arguers (TCPO, prolly, for instance) will argue that mobile QBs who can play are a lot more plentiful than the universe's Peyton Mannings. And I completely agree. I'm just saying that I wouldn't turn my nose up at a really great pocket passer just because he's not mobile.
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Meh, I don't know. I'm okay with a non-mobile QB pocket passer if he is good enough. Peyton Manning isn't mobile, and I heard somewhere that he's not bad. For those of you who might be tempted and silly enough to say that Wilson beat Manning in the Superbowl, be honest with yourselves now, Russell Wilson being a better QB than Peyton Manning is not how the Seahawks won the Superbowl. If you don't agree that Manning is a better QB than Wilson, then we can't talk anymore.
The logical arguers (TCPO, prolly, for instance) will argue that mobile QBs who can play are a lot more plentiful than the universe's Peyton Mannings. And I completely agree. I'm just saying that I wouldn't turn my nose up at a really great pocket passer just because he's not mobile.
Meh, I don't know. I'm okay with a non-mobile QB pocket passer if he is good enough. Peyton Manning isn't mobile, and I heard somewhere that he's not bad. For those of you who might be tempted and silly enough to say that Wilson beat Manning in the Superbowl, be honest with yourselves now, Russell Wilson being a better QB than Peyton Manning is not how the Seahawks won the Superbowl. If you don't agree that Manning is a better QB than Wilson, then we can't talk anymore.
The logical arguers (TCPO, prolly, for instance) will argue that mobile QBs who can play are a lot more plentiful than the universe's Peyton Mannings. And I completely agree. I'm just saying that I wouldn't turn my nose up at a really great pocket passer just because he's not mobile.
I wouldn't, either. Problem is, they are few and far between. Honestly, of all the greatest "pocket passers" to play the game throughout history, I think Manning is the only one who could not only survive, but thrive, in today's NFL.
They say "if you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough". Well, in this case, I think "if you're gonna be immobile, you gotta be smart". Manning has survived for as long and played as well as he has because he thoroughly understands his opponent. He doesn't need to rely on his mobility to wait for plays to break down, because he's winning 75% of plays by design through audibles, blocking shifts and formation tweaks.
Personally, I don't see a quarterback in this draft with half of the football acumen as Manning. I haven't seen one in the last 10 drafts, to be honest.
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I agree, and it might be partially because the system (from grade school up?) isn't cultivating that sort of QB anymore. A vicious circle has begun. Pocket passers have fallen out of favor. As such, the best throwers aren't being taught to be pocket passers, and kids who aren't terribly mobile aren't being developed as rigorously as the kids who are. As such, pocket passers in general are not as good. And, since they are not as good, they continue to not be favored.
That's not to say that there are a lot of potential Peyton Mannings out there who aren't getting opportunities or being developed because they aren't mobile. There aren't. Peyton is special. But, it might explain why were not seeing as many pocket passers as we used to or why when we do see them, they don't seem as competitive as they used to.
I don't think that TCPO is probably guilty of this, but I think in general we need to be wary of being so enamored with mobility that we allow it to devalue throwing ability too much. Tebow, Vince Young, etc. were examples of this. When they entered the league, people said, "Okay, so they don't throw that well, but we can work that out with some training. Look how mobile they are, though." Ideally, of course, you'd like a QB who is mobile but who is also a really great passer.
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I agree, and it might be partially because the system (from grade school up?) isn't cultivating that sort of QB anymore. A vicious circle has begun. Pocket passers have fallen out of favor. As such, the best throwers aren't being taught to be pocket passers, and kids who aren't terribly mobile aren't being developed as rigorously as the kids who are. As such, pocket passers in general are not as good. And, since they are not as good, they continue to not be favored.
That's not to say that there are a lot of potential Peyton Mannings out there who aren't getting opportunities or being developed because they aren't mobile. There aren't. Peyton is special. But, it might explain why were not seeing as many pocket passers as we used to or why when we do see them, they don't seem as competitive as they used to.
I don't think that TCPO is probably guilty of this, but I think in general we need to be wary of being so enamored with mobility that we allow it to devalue throwing ability too much. Tebow, Vince Young, etc. were examples of this. When they entered the league, people said, "Okay, so they don't throw that well, but we can work that out with some training. Look how mobile they are, though." Ideally, of course, you'd like a QB who is mobile but who is also a really great passer.
I agree, and it might be partially because the system (from grade school up?) isn't cultivating that sort of QB anymore. A vicious circle has begun. Pocket passers have fallen out of favor. As such, the best throwers aren't being taught to be pocket passers, and kids who aren't terribly mobile aren't being developed as rigorously as the kids who are. As such, pocket passers in general are not as good. And, since they are not as good, they continue to not be favored.
That's not to say that there are a lot of potential Peyton Mannings out there who aren't getting opportunities or being developed because they aren't mobile. There aren't. Peyton is special. But, it might explain why were not seeing as many pocket passers as we used to or why when we do see them, they don't seem as competitive as they used to.
That's my feeling as well.
I think a lot has to do with the fact that a dual threat QB is just that, a dual threat. It's one more thing the defense has to gameplan for, so that more practice time spent on containing the QB and less time spent on perfecting other nuances of the defense.
The smartest QB in the world can't beat a perfect defensive play. He can't think the ball to his receiver's hands if he's perfectly covered. So, even though Peyton is one of the greatest to play the game, there is a ceiling on his smarts.
In high school, better talent almost always wins. In college, better talent normally wins.
In the pros, it's all about game planning.
That's why high school coaches err toward developing those dual threat guys instead of the pocket passers.
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Yeah, if you can get a real dual-threat guy (who is good at both), that's optimal. I'd put my preference list like this:
1. Guy who can do both.
2. Guy who can pass but can't run.
3. Guy who can run but can't pass.
For this reason, if I'm shooting for #1 (or if a real #1 isn't available), I'm more comfortable erring on the side of #2 than #3.
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