Isn't ISLAM such a peaceful and tolerant religion?
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It brings in flocks of the poverty stricken and brain washes them in their religious schools. The well to do of course stay isolated from them.
"You planning on having a long relationship with that glass or are you going to drink it? Drink up, man. Maybe we can get another.” - Janis Joplin, 1970. -
It brings in flocks of the poverty stricken and brain washes them in their religious schools. The well to do of course stay isolated from them.
It brings in flocks of the poverty stricken and brain washes them in their religious schools. The well to do of course stay isolated from them.
sounds like religions in general
"And they don't really know even what they're talkin' about And I can't imagine what empty heads can achieve." -
It brings in flocks of the poverty stricken and brain washes them in their religious schools. The well to do of course stay isolated from them.
sounds like religions in general
sounds like religions in general
You are a dumb fucker. So, you're comparing Catholic to Muslim scum? Stupid fucking jerk.
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It brings in flocks of the poverty stricken and brain washes them in their religious schools. The well to do of course stay isolated from them.
sounds like religions in general
I wouldn't go as far as diehard but no, it doesn't. Sure in history there has been bad behavior associated with various religions but in recent history the bulk the barbarism is among Muslims (not all Muslims but Muslims in barbaric Godforsaken shit holes around the world like the Sudan and many others.)sounds like religions in general
I blame it more on those aforementioned Godforsaken shit holes than I do on Islam.
Those "people" are feral.
WSS
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During Thursday's sentencing hearing, a sheikh told the court "how dangerous a crime like this is to Islam and the Islamic community," said attorney Mohamed Jar Elnabi, who's representing Ibrahim.
"I am a Christian," Ibrahim fired back, "and I will remain a Christian."
Jesus suffered a false trial too...
I'd say Ibrahim is in very good company, but thats the hallmark of a true believer - and will bear the persecution
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It brings in flocks of the poverty stricken and brain washes them in their religious schools. The well to do of course stay isolated from them.
sounds like religions in general
sounds like religions in general
Pretty much. It is just a way to control the masses.
Take a step back and look at any religion and it is ridiculous.
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Nobody's trying to defend these actions, clearly they're wrong. But we've been over this before - this isn't what Islam is about, this is what the extremists that are in charge of Sudan are about. No more than it's what Christianity was about when people were being executed for heresy a few hundred years ago.
So:
-We have these extreme acts of violence in the name of Islam and occasionally Christianity, coming primarily from third world 'uncivilised' countries - no offence, Osiris - in Africa and the middle east, where Islam is the main religion.
-We have more tolerance from developed countries, where Christianity is the main religion.
To what degree is there a causal link between the main religion of an area and the level of extremist views? Or is there another factor at work, potentially the exploitation of uneducated people by using religion as a tool to invoke the mass hysteria needed to be ok with these kinds of education in the population at large. Such a power vacuum as exists in highly unregulated states such as these inevitably attract 'bad' people.
Whether Islam is worse than other religions in this way, for attracting 'bad' people is certainly a valid question. For example, it's a lot easier to oppress 50% of the populous right off the bat with Islam, forcing women to stay in doors, removing their right to education etc - although I haven't actually read the Quran (yet, going to get around to it someday, I suspect) so I don't know for certain what it says in this regard.
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And just having a quick look online at the one of the first results for translations in to english, you get:
7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians). - http://www.noblequran.com/translation/
As opposed to the next one, which just says:
The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray. - http://quran.com/1
Which is right? Clearly, if you go with the first one, you can use it to engender a feeling of superiority over the specified religions. "Jews have angered Allah, they must be punished!" Osiris, not sure your arabic level, perhaps you can help us out here?
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Just study your Quran GFT. Perhaps you need a few years in Pakistan.
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Oh come now Chris. It's little stupid comparing something that happened hundreds of years ago to today. If that's the case I guess England sucks because they were conquered by Italy.
And America sucks because the people lived mud huts and skin tents and eat each other. We talking about modern day Islam.
(Albeit in less than civilized parts of the world.)
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Oh come now Chris. It's little stupid comparing something that happened hundreds of years ago to today. If that's the case I guess England sucks because they were conquered by Italy.
And America sucks because the people lived mud huts and skin tents and eat each other. We talking about modern day Islam.
(Albeit in less than civilized parts of the world.)
WSS
Oh come now Chris. It's little stupid comparing something that happened hundreds of years ago to today. If that's the case I guess England sucks because they were conquered by Italy.
And America sucks because the people lived mud huts and skin tents and eat each other. We talking about modern day Islam.
(Albeit in less than civilized parts of the world.)
WSS
I'm not saying 'we did it hundreds of years ago so it's fine for them to do it today' - I'm saying that throughout history people have abused religion for their own ends and this is another example of it.
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Nobody's trying to defend these actions, clearly they're wrong. But we've been over this before - this isn't what Islam is about, this is what the extremists that are in charge of Sudan are about. No more than it's what Christianity was about when people were being executed for heresy a few hundred years ago.
So:
-We have these extreme acts of violence in the name of Islam and occasionally Christianity, coming primarily from third world 'uncivilised' countries - no offence, Osiris - in Africa and the middle east, where Islam is the main religion.
-We have more tolerance from developed countries, where Christianity is the main religion.
To what degree is there a causal link between the main religion of an area and the level of extremist views? Or is there another factor at work, potentially the exploitation of uneducated people by using religion as a tool to invoke the mass hysteria needed to be ok with these kinds of education in the population at large. Such a power vacuum as exists in highly unregulated states such as these inevitably attract 'bad' people.
Whether Islam is worse than other religions in this way, for attracting 'bad' people is certainly a valid question. For example, it's a lot easier to oppress 50% of the populous right off the bat with Islam, forcing women to stay in doors, removing their right to education etc - although I haven't actually read the Quran (yet, going to get around to it someday, I suspect) so I don't know for certain what it says in this regard.
Nobody's trying to defend these actions, clearly they're wrong. But we've been over this before - this isn't what Islam is about, this is what the extremists that are in charge of Sudan are about. No more than it's what Christianity was about when people were being executed for heresy a few hundred years ago.
So:
-We have these extreme acts of violence in the name of Islam and occasionally Christianity, coming primarily from third world 'uncivilised' countries - no offence, Osiris - in Africa and the middle east, where Islam is the main religion.
-We have more tolerance from developed countries, where Christianity is the main religion.
To what degree is there a causal link between the main religion of an area and the level of extremist views? Or is there another factor at work, potentially the exploitation of uneducated people by using religion as a tool to invoke the mass hysteria needed to be ok with these kinds of education in the population at large. Such a power vacuum as exists in highly unregulated states such as these inevitably attract 'bad' people.
Whether Islam is worse than other religions in this way, for attracting 'bad' people is certainly a valid question. For example, it's a lot easier to oppress 50% of the populous right off the bat with Islam, forcing women to stay in doors, removing their right to education etc - although I haven't actually read the Quran (yet, going to get around to it someday, I suspect) so I don't know for certain what it says in this regard.
Not offended at all Chris. Lack of civilization (which results from a prolonged period in which their is a lack of resources) is exactly the problem. Around the 1950s in Cairo, when Egypt actually loaned other countries money and the population hadn't yet completely outstripped resources, women walked around in miniskirts and could wear bikinis at the beach. Nowadays you'd only see that with tourists. Since I've had the opportunity to visit over two dozen times over the past three decades, I can attest to the rise of conservatism as resources have become increasingly more scarce.
As for the Quran and what it says about women, this is a good primer, I think it might surprise you: http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=886.0
The million-dollar question is "why is there such a disconnect between text and behavior amongst the some in the Muslim population?" The extent of lack of resources certainly plays a large factor, maybe even the main factor. Lack of resources is everything: no food, no literacy (that is key if you can't read you have to depend on what others tell you the Quran says and not what it actually says).
Ask where in the Muslim world we see the most violence and terrorism? Do you see it more in Pakistan? Do you see much from Morocco? The democracies of Indonesia, Bangladesh, and Turkey? Doesn't it seem that countries with more recent and stronger tribal traditions tend to produce most of the stories like the OP posted?
Regarding translations, the first thing to remember is Arabic is not an easy language to translate. There are many words that don't have a matching word in English and many variations of words each with a slightly different meaning. This opens the door to the translator editorializing, which is exactly what is happening with the verses you posted.
The verse you posted is part of the daily prayers Muslims make and I promise you that it does not say Jews or Christians in Arabic. Now imagine that somewhere in Pakistan a religious "leader" whose cousin was killed in a drone attack uses an Urdu translation with the same editorializing and teaches that version to his villagers, most of whom are illiterate. You can now see how a person can use an editorialized version of the religious text to get "revenge" on the "infidels" who killed his cousin. Since no one in his village can read Arabic, no one can challenge what he is teaching. Now reproduce this in every poor village in the Muslim world.
No resources -> no education -> no literacy -> no comprehension.
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Oh come now Chris. It's little stupid comparing something that happened hundreds of years ago to today. If that's the case I guess England sucks because they were conquered by Italy.
And America sucks because the people lived mud huts and skin tents and eat each other. We talking about modern day Islam.
(Albeit in less than civilized parts of the world.)
WSS
Oh come now Chris. It's little stupid comparing something that happened hundreds of years ago to today. If that's the case I guess England sucks because they were conquered by Italy.
And America sucks because the people lived mud huts and skin tents and eat each other. We talking about modern day Islam.
(Albeit in less than civilized parts of the world.)
WSS
It's not stupid when the point is being made that any religious text can be abused to try to incite or justify violence. The texts themselves haven't changed much in the past centuries. If this were a scientific experiment, we would see that since we have seen violence incited and justified from many religions, and therefore conclude that the root cause is not any specific religious text, but rather other variables.
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Osiris - I think we agree that lack of education is a big driver in a lot of what's going on here. Ignorance as they say leads to fear, and we all know fear leads to the dark side.
So thought experiment - if the demographics of the religions were reversed, would we see a similar amount of religious/terrorist attacks with the protagonist religions reversed? Number two, since developed countries are coming to the point where they have exhausted their natural resource over the next century - we're getting there pretty shortly with fossil fuels, tin, iron and the rest here - will we see more moral/religious conservatism in those countries, or have we reached a tipping point where we're not going to be 'brainwashed' by religious leaders that are twisting religion to their own ends any more?
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Moderate Muslims in the US Condemn Boko Haram
Posted by Michael Becker on May 15, 2014 in Culture, Email
Actually, no they don’t.
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Which brings us to the issue of whether there are any “moderate Muslims.”
U.S. Islamic leaders won’t try to formally excommunicate the Islamist Boko Haram group unless they can meet with its leadership to debate the religious legitimacy of its actions, a spokesman for a leading mosque told.“There is a great reluctance to excommunicate someone by extension. … It would be like convicting someone in absentia, said Imam Johari Abdul-Malik…”We certainly wouldn’t want to convict someone in absentia, they should have the opportunity to defend themselves, right? Well, you be the judge. Here’s what Boko Haram’s leader recently had to say.
“There is a market for selling humans,” said Boko Haram’s leader, Abubakar Shekau. “Allah says I should sell. He commands me to sell. I will sell women. I sell women,” Shekau said in a video. Shekau also said pre-teen girls could be forcibly married.“We would marry them out at the age of nine,” he said, echoingMuhammed, who claimed multiple wives, including a nine-year-old girl named Aisha.[…]In a, Shekau justified his murder of Christians by quoting the Quran.Can you imagine the outcry in the major media if a so-called Christian justified his murder of, say, an abortion doctor with a Bible verse and a major Christian denomination refused to condemn him and his actions in absentia? It would be above the fold, page one of every major newspaper in the country, and it would lead TV news every night until the denomination backed down AND replaced their insensitive leadership.
Just so you know what Muslim leaders in the US think about Boko Haram,
“Islam is not the problem,” said Ahmed Bedier, a Florida-based Islamic advocate. “We’re tired of people coming on television and asking where does this ideology come from,” Bedier said. “Well, this ideology comes from nowhere,”.That would be hogwash Ahmed. Boko Haram’s actions come from 13 centuries of Islam. They’re a mirror of Islamic history. Muslims have been butchering and enslaving everyone they can for their entire history. Today is no different.
The problem, gentle readers, IS Islam. Unfortunately, we doubt we’re likely to face up to that reality any time soon.
Related articlesRead more at http://joeforamerica.com/2014/05/moderate-muslims-us-condemn-boko-haram/#3o2mKqThzeGpLUoP.99
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If you disagree with me you are a racist. Btw, I am WHITE.
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Osiris - I think we agree that lack of education is a big driver in a lot of what's going on here. Ignorance as they say leads to fear, and we all know fear leads to the dark side.
So thought experiment - if the demographics of the religions were reversed, would we see a similar amount of religious/terrorist attacks with the protagonist religions reversed? Number two, since developed countries are coming to the point where they have exhausted their natural resource over the next century - we're getting there pretty shortly with fossil fuels, tin, iron and the rest here - will we see more moral/religious conservatism in those countries, or have we reached a tipping point where we're not going to be 'brainwashed' by religious leaders that are twisting religion to their own ends any more?
Osiris - I think we agree that lack of education is a big driver in a lot of what's going on here. Ignorance as they say leads to fear, and we all know fear leads to the dark side.
So thought experiment - if the demographics of the religions were reversed, would we see a similar amount of religious/terrorist attacks with the protagonist religions reversed? Number two, since developed countries are coming to the point where they have exhausted their natural resource over the next century - we're getting there pretty shortly with fossil fuels, tin, iron and the rest here - will we see more moral/religious conservatism in those countries, or have we reached a tipping point where we're not going to be 'brainwashed' by religious leaders that are twisting religion to their own ends any more?
Chris, I've always argued that it would be in general. This is humanity and humans generally behave the same way in the same circumstances. To the second question, I think we will see that unless we change the resources we depend on. I think it's natural for people to retreat into religious conservatism in times of stress, so the key would be avoiding that stress. I personally feel the past decade is the toughest time in America that I've experienced and there seems to be a concurrent rise in conservatism in America, but that's just my own anecdotal observation.
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The Sudan would still be a backwards shit hole even if they had no state religion.
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