Isn't ISLAM such a peaceful and tolerant religion?
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It's pretty rare I agree with Bunker but this is actually one of those oddities.
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Nobody's trying to defend these actions, clearly they're wrong. But we've been over this before - this isn't what Islam is about, this is what the extremists that are in charge of Sudan are about. No more than it's what Christianity was about when people were being executed for heresy a few hundred years ago.
So:
-We have these extreme acts of violence in the name of Islam and occasionally Christianity, coming primarily from third world 'uncivilised' countries - no offence, Osiris - in Africa and the middle east, where Islam is the main religion.
-We have more tolerance from developed countries, where Christianity is the main religion.
To what degree is there a causal link between the main religion of an area and the level of extremist views? Or is there another factor at work, potentially the exploitation of uneducated people by using religion as a tool to invoke the mass hysteria needed to be ok with these kinds of education in the population at large. Such a power vacuum as exists in highly unregulated states such as these inevitably attract 'bad' people.
Whether Islam is worse than other religions in this way, for attracting 'bad' people is certainly a valid question. For example, it's a lot easier to oppress 50% of the populous right off the bat with Islam, forcing women to stay in doors, removing their right to education etc - although I haven't actually read the Quran (yet, going to get around to it someday, I suspect) so I don't know for certain what it says in this regard.
No more than it's what Christianity AND ISLAM was about when people were being executed for heresy a few hundred years ago.
You get the point and are missing it at the same time.
The point is is that Christianty has evolved from the dark ages, Islam has not.
Pathetic how dimwit liberals cant bring themselves to flat out condem the barbaric actions of Muslims with no strings attached.. Instead they become apologists...rationalizing, even justifying or excusing the barbaric behavior of Islam with references to how Christianity was...when in fact Islam was the same way, and still is.
That is the issue here.
Get it?
I know...I said "dimwit liberals"...pretty redundant.
No more than it's what Christianity AND ISLAM was about when people were being executed for heresy a few hundred years ago.
You get the point and are missing it at the same time.
The point is is that Christianty has evolved from the dark ages, Islam has not.
Pathetic how dimwit liberals cant bring themselves to flat out condem the barbaric actions of Muslims with no strings attached.. Instead they become apologists...rationalizing, even justifying or excusing the barbaric behavior of Islam with references to how Christianity was...when in fact Islam was the same way, and still is.
That is the issue here.
Get it?
I know...I said "dimwit liberals"...pretty redundant.
ALL OF THE SHOUTING!!! AND THE MISSING THE POINT!!!
Haha, I'm a dimwit liberal, you got me. I just want the whole country to turn to Islam and then behead me for being an infidel.
Let's try this again, shall we? Opening part of the post that you're quoting, that you seem to have ignored:
"Nobody's trying to defend these actions, clearly they're wrong."
How's that for condemning it?
You miss the point that I've been discussing with Osiris regarding Islam. It's not that Islam hasn't emerged from the dark ages as a religion - after all, the bible and quran are the same text now as they were a thousand years ago - it's that the majority of countries where Islam is the predominant religion are still massively underdeveloped, with wide spread illiteracy and inability to question authority leading to imams 'interpreting' the religious text in their own way for their own means. Scroll back a bit and you'll see where I'm comparing two translations of the same line in the quran from two different websites. Something like "...and all those that have angered you and all those who have betrayed you..." - one text leaves it like that, another specifically mentions the christians and the jews.
Do you get my point? I'm trying to be as clear as I can here. Condemning someone to death for their religion is *never* acceptable. I'm not trying to defend it. It can, however, be understood and explained why these things are happening. The problem comes when we try to equate beheading of christians in Sudan with mainstream islam, which is just a logical fallacy.
How about the christians in other countries in africa, where they are the majority, persecuting muslims? I saw a video of a mob carrying a burning corpse of a muslim through the town, having macheted various parts of his body off, and an interview with the guy after who said he even ate some of the dead guy's leg. Clearly, atrocious acts of violence that cannot and should not be defended by any person of sound mind. Yet, I'm sure there are some people somewhere saying that this is the way of christianity, and that's just as wrong.
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Chris as you know I fully agree about the barbarism in the uncivilized parts of the world. Still it certainly sounds to me like you are in denial (or just trying to rationalize) if you need to go back to revolutionary crusade pre-roman cro magnon or whatever to draw parallels.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Of course they do. African nations are borderline savages who no matter what religion will slaughter and kill.
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Chris as you know I fully agree about the barbarism in the uncivilized parts of the world. Still it certainly sounds to me like you are in denial (or just trying to rationalize) if you need to go back to revolutionary crusade pre-roman cro magnon or whatever to draw parallels.
WSS
Chris as you know I fully agree about the barbarism in the uncivilized parts of the world. Still it certainly sounds to me like you are in denial (or just trying to rationalize) if you need to go back to revolutionary crusade pre-roman cro magnon or whatever to draw parallels.
WSS
But we don't need to, these things are happening today, you just don't hear about it. Things like this from earlier this year, for example.
In Uganda, people can be tortured and killed just for being gay, because it's anti-christian. "Both male and female homosexual activity is illegal. Under the Penal Code, "carnal knowledge against the order of nature" between two males carries a potential penalty of life imprisonment and executions/torture are allowed with no legal liabilities for the executioners"
But it's besides the point - we don't have to say that Christianity is just as bad in some places to come to the conclusion that the 'muslims' carrying out these acts are not acting on the values of whichever religion they claim to be affiliated with. You get extreme Christians in the US like the WBC, but because it's a civilised country the extremism is less, well, extreme. You can bet that if it were in Africa or some other deprived place, Fred whatsisname would be encouraging his followers to hunt down and kill all the gays and other non-believers.
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So you are making the comparison between the Westminster Baptist Church al Qaeda? Oh come on.
And yes it seems that a great deal of Africa is a hell hole, regardless of religion.
And yet the only time I can remember the world community rallying was in support of the old terrorist Nelson Mandela in a rear area that at least approached being civilized.
WSS
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So you are making the comparison between the Westminster Baptist Church al Qaeda? Oh come on.
And yes it seems that a great deal of Africa is a hell hole, regardless of religion.
And yet the only time I can remember the world community rallying was in support of the old terrorist Nelson Mandela in a rear area that at least approached being civilized.
WSS
So you are making the comparison between the Westminster Baptist Church al Qaeda? Oh come on.
And yes it seems that a great deal of Africa is a hell hole, regardless of religion.
And yet the only time I can remember the world community rallying was in support of the old terrorist Nelson Mandela in a rear area that at least approached being civilized.
WSS
You're think Fred thingy wouldn't have tried to organise lynch mobs if he'd been brought up in some third world country where it was quite easy to get away with doing it? I'm not convinced. But again, it's besides the point.
Mostly I'm responding to the OP about some fucktards in Sudan thinking it's OK to execute someone based on their religion. It's not ok, but it's also not a muslim thing to do.
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No I wouldn't think Fred what's his name would probably execute homosexuals here in civilized us. ( who the fuck knows what any of this would do if we were born in the wild) Like some of the posters on this board enjoy over the top rhetoric I'd be surprised if any of them would ever consider acting on it. I think the Westminster Baptist Church enjoys the air time. Almost everybody does.
WSS
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It's still beside the point, Steve. All it takes is someone twisting some religious doctrine to their own views, and a gullible person with power, and you've got trouble. Sadly, those two types of people are not in short supply.
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It's still beside the point, Steve. All it takes is someone twisting some religious doctrine to their own views, and a gullible person with power, and you've got trouble. Sadly, those two types of people are not in short supply.
It's still beside the point, Steve. All it takes is someone twisting some religious doctrine to their own views, and a gullible person with power, and you've got trouble. Sadly, those two types of people are not in short supply.
That's correct. Do you think the incidents in today's world are pretty much equally divided then?
WSS
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It's still beside the point, Steve. All it takes is someone twisting some religious doctrine to their own views, and a gullible person with power, and you've got trouble. Sadly, those two types of people are not in short supply.
That's correct. Do you think the incidents in today's world are pretty much equally divided then?
WSS
That's correct. Do you think the incidents in today's world are pretty much equally divided then?
WSS
Obviously not. What I would ask you is, if the demographies were reversed - if Europe/USA were mainly mulsim, and Africa/Middle East mainly christian, do you think the distribution would be also reversed by the same amount? I mean, if you look in the bible, you can find passages suggesting that women cover their heads, that pork not be eaten, that infidels should be vanquished etc. and it's only through our western enlightenment era (IMO) that we've grown out of taking the bible so literally. Perhaps middle east/africa is going to have its own elightenment at some point in the next few centuries? Who knows.
Perhaps in a few generations religious people will be in the minority. Perhaps there'll be some new messiah that makes the world more religious? Who knows.
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Well you can always fall back on who knows? But as long as we're speaking about the reality of the present day... Who knows the Klingon Empire might be real and if they took over the earth it would be even worse! Also if the cat had not stopped to shit it would have caught the mouse!
Like the barkeeper in Darby O'Gill said to Pony Sugru, if I were 10 years younger...
Ahh, said Pony, but you're not 10 years younger are you?
WSS
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Just when I thought we were going to have an actual sensible hyperbolic discussion...
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Let we just closed by saying that we will find reasons to kill each other with or without religion.
it's just an excuse. Power and territory that's the key. Just like animals in the wild.
WSS
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We'd be better off without the religion part though
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Chris is obviously studying the quran hard.
"You planning on having a long relationship with that glass or are you going to drink it? Drink up, man. Maybe we can get another.” - Janis Joplin, 1970. -
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Chris is obviously studying the quran hard.
Chris is obviously studying the quran hard.
It's mandatory now that the UK, and pretty soon Europe is under Sharia law.
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Pakistan woman stoned to death by family for marrying man she loved
By By Mubasher Bukhari5 hours agoBy Mubasher Bukhari
LAHORE Pakistan (Reuters) - A 25-year-old woman was stoned to death by her family outside one of Pakistan's top courts on Tuesday in a so-called "honor" killing for marrying the man she loved, police said.
Farzana Iqbal was waiting for the High Court in the eastern city of Lahore to open when a group of around dozen men began attacking her with bricks, said Umer Cheema, a senior police officer.
Her father, two brothers and former fiance were among the attackers, he said. Iqbal suffered severe head injuries and was pronounced dead in hospital, police said.
All the suspects except her father escaped. He admitted killing his daughter, Cheema said, and explained it was a matter of honor. Many Pakistani families think a woman marrying her own choice of man brings dishonor on the family.
Iqbal had been engaged to her cousin but married another man, Cheema said. Her family registered a kidnapping case against him but Iqbal had come to court to argue that she had married of her own free will, he said.
Around 1,000 Pakistani women are killed every year by their families in honor killings, according to Pakistani rights group the Aurat Foundation.
The true figure is probably many times higher since the Aurat Foundation only compiles figures from newspaper reports. The government does not compile national statistics.
Campaigners say few cases come to court, and those that do can take years to be heard. No one tracks how many cases are successfully prosecuted.
Even those that do result in a conviction may end with the killers walking free. Pakistani law allows a victim's family to forgive their killer.
But in honor killings, most of the time the women's killers are her family, said Wasim Wagha of the Aurat Foundation. The law allows them to nominate someone to do the murder, then forgive him.
"This is a huge flaw in the law," he said. "We are really struggling on this issue."
(Writing by Katharine Houreld; Editing by Nick Macfie)
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