Jonathan Paul Manziel
-
As I said, twice even, I understand the difference between college and NFL. However, I guess I failed to get my point across. People insist upon calling him fragile although he played two complete seasons with no missed games. If I remember correctly he missed one series of downs in 2012 and two or three series in 2013. This was at the same time that the larger QBs for MO, LSU, GA, etc suffered season ending injuries. Not trying to bring up college exploits, but to refute the fragile label,
I am not sure we believe he is fragile.....I think we just recognize that he is "slight", and that with his frame he could be subject to injuries when hit awkwardly by 300 pound nasty boys on defense. I mean, he won't have a Ben Roethlisberger type frame to ward off those guys....he will have to use his speed and guile to do it.
And, hopefully, you are right.....that his capability to be elusive will make a world of difference.
I am not sure we believe he is fragile.....I think we just recognize that he is "slight", and that with his frame he could be subject to injuries when hit awkwardly by 300 pound nasty boys on defense. I mean, he won't have a Ben Roethlisberger type frame to ward off those guys....he will have to use his speed and guile to do it.
And, hopefully, you are right.....that his capability to be elusive will make a world of difference.
I remember seeing a report on draft night about an analysis done on JM that compared his body build against other (larger and NFL successful) QBs. IIRC their analysis showed that because of his body build/musculature ratio he was at a lower risk of injury than the larger QBs. Wish I could provide a link because it was pretty interesting. But that's just computer geeks so what do they know.
. Anyway, I guess time will tell. I know it was just college but I think all the AL and LSU defensive players weigh over 300 lbs. Saban is now looking at going smaller to catch future Johnny types. -
@everlastingxxx said:
I dont disagree with your general view but i think we have a different definition of what a fan is. I think you can be a fan of a single player. I do think the team can grow on you much like Texas A&M did to me. Anyone who plays fantasy football can probably agree. If you think that somehow makes them less of a fan, then i think you are trying to pigeon hole the term fan.
I think some Brown fans obsess over the past and project it onto the future. Instead of judging Manziel on his own, he has to cure the Browns 31 QB curse too. I see myself as a very level headed knowledgeable football fan. I donโt limit my thinking with outdated views.
OK, but you are focussed on one single individual...and you only see what the potential of that one individual may be....because you like him.
And you are right....I am focussed on rooting for my team....not just for some guy.
And to us....who have been here....just see him as another guy......that hopefully won't turn out like the other guys that preceded him.
But yes, because we don't have our nostrils so near his anus as you do, we do see things more objectively.
We seem him merely as another candidate to be be the one to take the crown. But we also know that there have been candidates before him that have had somewhat similar histories.
I mean, we had the Golden Boy from Notre Dame.
The guy who won more college football games than anyone else.
We had the Red Rifle
We had the guy that made the grass in Kentucky blue.
So, let's put it this way: JFF has something to prove to us.
If he actually does fail like those other false Messiahs, well, unfortuneatly it is something we are used to by now. We are not going to jump off Terminal Tower......but I may have concerns about you....and may want to alert the security forces of the tallest building in Katy TX to keep you off their roof. (Can I assume we are probably talking about a grain silo?)
(Can I assume we are probably talking about a grain silo?)
Can we please stop with the stereotypes?
-
@everlastingxxx said:
I dont disagree with your general view but i think we have a different definition of what a fan is. I think you can be a fan of a single player. I do think the team can grow on you much like Texas A&M did to me. Anyone who plays fantasy football can probably agree. If you think that somehow makes them less of a fan, then i think you are trying to pigeon hole the term fan.
I think some Brown fans obsess over the past and project it onto the future. Instead of judging Manziel on his own, he has to cure the Browns 31 QB curse too. I see myself as a very level headed knowledgeable football fan. I donโt limit my thinking with outdated views.
OK, but you are focussed on one single individual...and you only see what the potential of that one individual may be....because you like him.
And you are right....I am focussed on rooting for my team....not just for some guy.
And to us....who have been here....just see him as another guy......that hopefully won't turn out like the other guys that preceded him.
But yes, because we don't have our nostrils so near his anus as you do, we do see things more objectively.
We seem him merely as another candidate to be be the one to take the crown. But we also know that there have been candidates before him that have had somewhat similar histories.
I mean, we had the Golden Boy from Notre Dame.
The guy who won more college football games than anyone else.
We had the Red Rifle
We had the guy that made the grass in Kentucky blue.
So, let's put it this way: JFF has something to prove to us.
If he actually does fail like those other false Messiahs, well, unfortuneatly it is something we are used to by now. We are not going to jump off Terminal Tower......but I may have concerns about you....and may want to alert the security forces of the tallest building in Katy TX to keep you off their roof. (Can I assume we are probably talking about a grain silo?)
We are not going to jump off Terminal Tower......but I may have concerns about you....and may want to alert the security forces of the tallest building in Katy TX to keep you off their roof. (Can I assume we are probably talking about a grain silo?)
Can we please stop with the stereotypes?
i thought it was funny and probably true.
-
Katy is right outside of Houston.
-
The best thing the Browns got in JM was a self motivator and leader by example. Every time he has concluded that he needed to get better in certain areas he has used the offseason to address it After the Heisman season he knew he had to learn to think pass first, run second if he wanted to eventually turn pro. So go look at his stats for his second year, far better passer from the pocket and almost half the prior year's running yards. And don't be fooled into thinking he has always been a shotgun QB. His first year was running Mike Sherman's Pro-style i offense with the scout team.
All that said I know he is fully aware he has a lot to learn before becoming a starter. And I have confidence in Pettine not to push him too fast too soon unless injury forces his hand.
And don't be fooled into thinking he has always been a shotgun QB. His first year was running Mike Sherman's Pro-style i offense with the scout team.
Why was Sherman practicing against his own offense?
If Haslam had in fact said "you are the backup", it would have been no big deal.
Actually eliminating JM from the competition would have been a much bigger deal.
... many people believe that Alabama's defense is the closest you can come to NFL.
Closest in this use is only relative to all other college defenses. It says nothing about how close it is to an NFL D.
I'm afraid it is far more likely that Hoyer will be hurt. Not at all wanting this to happen but just my opinion.
Whomever starts will be more likely to get hurt. But if we are comparing styles, then I do not see how Hoyer is the more likely of the two.
Yes, he did have a nagging shoulder injury that caused him to miss 2 or 3 series of downs in 2013. And it was caused by a risky play so hopefully he learned from that to protect himself. It, however, was not serious enough to require surgery. Although he is unquestionably immature, he is also smart enough to learn from his mistakes. He should realize that he doesn't need to carry the team as he did in college because the browns have built a strong defensive team. My biggest concern is his ultra competitiveness but I believe that Shanahan will build an offensive scheme to channel that.
I could have written (and actually believe I have written) almost all of your second quote... especially the "ultra competitiveness" bit. Where we differ is in the confidence that he will "realize" or Shanny can "channel".
I see his competitiveness being game situation responsive. I also see it as being an essential part of what makes JM special.
How can it be harnessed without reducing his impact?
How can he survive the recklessness it induces?
These opposing questions present the quandary that I see JM presenting.
I see the read option being run in mini-camp and I shudder. Even if under orders to hand off every time, the league has pronounced any QB carrying out a fake fair game.
For the record I do not regard JM as fragile. But as you ultimately pointed out in your reply to Gip's question, he has played hurt, and in 2013 his hurt diminished his performance.
-
Katy is a suburb of Houston and (not wanting to stereotype) probably has more tall buildings than Cleveland. And I've been to Cleveland for work and visited the R&R HOF .
-
And don't be fooled into thinking he has always been a shotgun QB. His first year was running Mike Sherman's Pro-style i offense with the scout team.
Why was Sherman practicing against his own offense?
If Haslam had in fact said "you are the backup", it would have been no big deal.
Actually eliminating JM from the competition would have been a much bigger deal.
... many people believe that Alabama's defense is the closest you can come to NFL.
Closest in this use is only relative to all other college defenses. It says nothing about how close it is to an NFL D.
I'm afraid it is far more likely that Hoyer will be hurt. Not at all wanting this to happen but just my opinion.
Whomever starts will be more likely to get hurt. But if we are comparing styles, then I do not see how Hoyer is the more likely of the two.
Yes, he did have a nagging shoulder injury that caused him to miss 2 or 3 series of downs in 2013. And it was caused by a risky play so hopefully he learned from that to protect himself. It, however, was not serious enough to require surgery. Although he is unquestionably immature, he is also smart enough to learn from his mistakes. He should realize that he doesn't need to carry the team as he did in college because the browns have built a strong defensive team. My biggest concern is his ultra competitiveness but I believe that Shanahan will build an offensive scheme to channel that.
I could have written (and actually believe I have written) almost all of your second quote... especially the "ultra competitiveness" bit. Where we differ is in the confidence that he will "realize" or Shanny can "channel".
I see his competitiveness being game situation responsive. I also see it as being an essential part of what makes JM special.
How can it be harnessed without reducing his impact?
How can he survive the recklessness it induces?
These opposing questions present the quandary that I see JM presenting.
I see the read option being run in mini-camp and I shudder. Even if under orders to hand off every time, the league has pronounced any QB carrying out a fake fair game.
For the record I do not regard JM as fragile. But as you ultimately pointed out in your reply to Gip's question, he has played hurt, and in 2013 his hurt diminished his performance.
Why was Sherman practicing against his own offense?Actually eliminating JM from the competition would have been a much bigger deal.Closest in this use is only relative to all other college defenses. It says nothing about how close it is to an NFL D.Whomever starts will be more likely to get hurt. But if we are comparing styles, then I do not see how Hoyer is the more likely of the two.I could have written (and actually believe I have written) almost all of your second quote... especially the "ultra competitiveness" bit. Where we differ is in the confidence that he will "realize" or Shanny can "channel".I see his competitiveness being game situation responsive. I also see it as being an essential part of what makes JM special.How can it be harnessed without reducing his impact?How can he survive the recklessness it induces?These opposing questions present the quandary that I see JM presenting.I see the read option being run in mini-camp and I shudder. Even if under orders to hand off every time, the league has pronounced any QB carrying out a fake fair game.For the record I do not regard JM as fragile. But as you ultimately pointed out in your reply to Gip's question, he has played hurt, and in 2013 his hurt diminished his performance.
The reason I said Hoyer is more likely to be injured is because he has had major knee surgery. It obviously has to be a concern and was the reason given for Mettenberger not going earlier in the draft.
I agree with most of what you said. Only time will tell about the "realize" and "channel" parts. In case you haven't noticed I am not one who believes that Johnny is the messiah. I don't believe he will be a bust but also don't know if he'll be a star. Only time will tell. He took a good number of hits from 300+ lb lineman and the shoulder injury occurred when he was diving near the goal line so I'm not that concerned about the play fake.
-
@everlastingxxx said:
I dont disagree with your general view but i think we have a different definition of what a fan is. I think you can be a fan of a single player. I do think the team can grow on you much like Texas A&M did to me. Anyone who plays fantasy football can probably agree. If you think that somehow makes them less of a fan, then i think you are trying to pigeon hole the term fan.
I think some Brown fans obsess over the past and project it onto the future. Instead of judging Manziel on his own, he has to cure the Browns 31 QB curse too. I see myself as a very level headed knowledgeable football fan. I donโt limit my thinking with outdated views.
OK, but you are focussed on one single individual...and you only see what the potential of that one individual may be....because you like him.
And you are right....I am focussed on rooting for my team....not just for some guy.
And to us....who have been here....just see him as another guy......that hopefully won't turn out like the other guys that preceded him.
But yes, because we don't have our nostrils so near his anus as you do, we do see things more objectively.
We seem him merely as another candidate to be be the one to take the crown. But we also know that there have been candidates before him that have had somewhat similar histories.
I mean, we had the Golden Boy from Notre Dame.
The guy who won more college football games than anyone else.
We had the Red Rifle
We had the guy that made the grass in Kentucky blue.
So, let's put it this way: JFF has something to prove to us.
If he actually does fail like those other false Messiahs, well, unfortuneatly it is something we are used to by now. We are not going to jump off Terminal Tower......but I may have concerns about you....and may want to alert the security forces of the tallest building in Katy TX to keep you off their roof. (Can I assume we are probably talking about a grain silo?)
.and may want to alert the security forces of the tallest building in Katy TX to keep you off their roof. (Can I assume we are probably talking about a grain silo?)
If it's not the grain silo, it's the water tower:
-
(Can I assume we are probably talking about a grain silo?)
Can we please stop with the stereotypes?
Can we please stop with the stereotypes?
Probably not. They are too ingrained. Besides, do you know what the tallest structure is in the town I grew up in right here in NEO?
A grain silo (or the equivalent, it actually held like crushed limestone).
-
Katy is a suburb of Houston and (not wanting to stereotype) probably has more tall buildings than Cleveland. And I've been to Cleveland for work and visited the R&R HOF .
Katy is a suburb of Houston and (not wanting to stereotype) probably has more tall buildings than Cleveland. And I've been to Cleveland for work and visited the R&R HOF .
Houston has more tall buildings than Cleveland, sure. But I doubt Katy did....errr....does.
In fact....sorry dude, but when I google imaged "Katy Texas, tallest structure" this is what I got:
-
Katy is a suburb of Houston and (not wanting to stereotype) probably has more tall buildings than Cleveland. And I've been to Cleveland for work and visited the R&R HOF .
Houston has more tall buildings than Cleveland, sure. But I doubt Katy did....errr....does.
In fact....sorry dude, but when I google imaged "Katy Texas, tallest structure" this is what I got:
In fact....sorry dude, but when I google imaged "Katy Texas, tallest structure" this is what I got:
I would think a country boy like you would know the difference between a grain silo and a grain elevator...
Katy is a suburb of Houston...
It is now... 40 years ago when I moved to Houston was not the case.
It's called urban spr'all y'all...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Why was Sherman practicing against his own offense?Actually eliminating JM from the competition would have been a much bigger deal.Closest in this use is only relative to all other college defenses. It says nothing about how close it is to an NFL D.Whomever starts will be more likely to get hurt. But if we are comparing styles, then I do not see how Hoyer is the more likely of the two.I could have written (and actually believe I have written) almost all of your second quote... especially the "ultra competitiveness" bit. Where we differ is in the confidence that he will "realize" or Shanny can "channel".I see his competitiveness being game situation responsive. I also see it as being an essential part of what makes JM special.How can it be harnessed without reducing his impact?How can he survive the recklessness it induces?These opposing questions present the quandary that I see JM presenting.I see the read option being run in mini-camp and I shudder. Even if under orders to hand off every time, the league has pronounced any QB carrying out a fake fair game.For the record I do not regard JM as fragile. But as you ultimately pointed out in your reply to Gip's question, he has played hurt, and in 2013 his hurt diminished his performance.
The reason I said Hoyer is more likely to be injured is because he has had major knee surgery. It obviously has to be a concern and was the reason given for Mettenberger not going earlier in the draft.
I agree with most of what you said. Only time will tell about the "realize" and "channel" parts. In case you haven't noticed I am not one who believes that Johnny is the messiah. I don't believe he will be a bust but also don't know if he'll be a star. Only time will tell. He took a good number of hits from 300+ lb lineman and the shoulder injury occurred when he was diving near the goal line so I'm not that concerned about the play fake.
The reason I said Hoyer is more likely to be injured is because he has had major knee surgery. It obviously has to be a concern and was the reason given for Mettenberger not going earlier in the draft.
I agree with most of what you said. Only time will tell about the "realize" and "channel" parts. In case you haven't noticed I am not one who believes that Johnny is the messiah. I don't believe he will be a bust but also don't know if he'll be a star. Only time will tell. He took a good number of hits from 300+ lb lineman and the shoulder injury occurred when he was diving near the goal line so I'm not that concerned about the play fake.
If you didn't see it, Hoyer's ACL injury was a fluke, attempting a really bad slide- he caught his leg awkwardly. Heck, Dan Marino blew out his Achilles playing the Browns way back, and he wasn't even touched. So I can't see Hoyer being proven as particularly injury prone- at least not yet. True that it usually takes at least a year (or more) to come completely back from that sort of injury. See RG III, who tried to come back too soon. However, Hoyer has had several more months to rehab as opposed to Griffin, and he's been doing everything the docs will allow him to do. Plus Hoyer is more of a pocket passer- he only takes off running when he has to, and I'm pretty sure the coaches have told him to dive and not slide anymore. IMO he's no more an injury risk than any other pocket first qb.
-
The reason I said Hoyer is more likely to be injured is because he has had major knee surgery. It obviously has to be a concern and was the reason given for Mettenberger not going earlier in the draft.
I agree with most of what you said. Only time will tell about the "realize" and "channel" parts. In case you haven't noticed I am not one who believes that Johnny is the messiah. I don't believe he will be a bust but also don't know if he'll be a star. Only time will tell. He took a good number of hits from 300+ lb lineman and the shoulder injury occurred when he was diving near the goal line so I'm not that concerned about the play fake.
If you didn't see it, Hoyer's ACL injury was a fluke, attempting a really bad slide- he caught his leg awkwardly. Heck, Dan Marino blew out his Achilles playing the Browns way back, and he wasn't even touched. So I can't see Hoyer being proven as particularly injury prone- at least not yet. True that it usually takes at least a year (or more) to come completely back from that sort of injury. See RG III, who tried to come back too soon. However, Hoyer has had several more months to rehab as opposed to Griffin, and he's been doing everything the docs will allow him to do. Plus Hoyer is more of a pocket passer- he only takes off running when he has to, and I'm pretty sure the coaches have told him to dive and not slide anymore. IMO he's no more an injury risk than any other pocket first qb.
If you didn't see it, Hoyer's ACL injury was a fluke, attempting a really bad slide- he caught his leg awkwardly. Heck, Dan Marino blew out his Achilles playing the Browns way back, and he wasn't even touched. So I can't see Hoyer being proven as particularly injury prone- at least not yet. True that it usually takes at least a year (or more) to come completely back from that sort of injury. See RG III, who tried to come back too soon. However, Hoyer has had several more months to rehab as opposed to Griffin, and he's been doing everything the docs will allow him to do. Plus Hoyer is more of a pocket passer- he only takes off running when he has to, and I'm pretty sure the coaches have told him to dive and not slide anymore. IMO he's no more an injury risk than any other pocket first qb.
I wasn't indicating that he is injury prone but that once an injury of this magnitude is sustained, complete recovery is a lengthy process as you indicated. I injured my ankle in an auto accident many years ago and was told by orthopedist at the time that would never be 100%. I went through almost a year of PT, but doc was right.
-
In fact....sorry dude, but when I google imaged "Katy Texas, tallest structure" this is what I got:
I would think a country boy like you would know the difference between a grain silo and a grain elevator...
Katy is a suburb of Houston...
It is now... 40 years ago when I moved to Houston was not the case.
It's called urban spr'all y'all...
I would think a country boy like you would know the difference between a grain silo and a grain elevator...
I am a suburban boy....and I know when I see a grain elevator next to a grain silo...and that is what that is.
It is now... 40 years ago when I moved to Houston was not the case.
It's called urban spr'all y'all...
-
Johnny will be the next Brian sipe, mark my words!
Actually, I hope not. I hope he is much better. FYI, no offense to him because he is an all time favorite, but, Brian Sipe never won a single postseason game for the Browns......and I certainly hope/wish/expect JFF to do better than that.
Actually, I hope not. I hope he is much better. FYI, no offense to him because he is an all time favorite, but, Brian Sipe never won a single postseason game for the Browns......and I certainly hope/wish/expect JFF to do better than that.
The only Browns QB to ever win a League MVP award. Yeah he wasn't that good. Ozzie lost that PO game against the raiders or he would of had a win.
-
@everlastingxxx said:
I dont disagree with your general view but i think we have a different definition of what a fan is. I think you can be a fan of a single player. I do think the team can grow on you much like Texas A&M did to me. Anyone who plays fantasy football can probably agree. If you think that somehow makes them less of a fan, then i think you are trying to pigeon hole the term fan.
I think some Brown fans obsess over the past and project it onto the future. Instead of judging Manziel on his own, he has to cure the Browns 31 QB curse too. I see myself as a very level headed knowledgeable football fan. I donโt limit my thinking with outdated views.
OK, but you are focussed on one single individual...and you only see what the potential of that one individual may be....because you like him.
And you are right....I am focussed on rooting for my team....not just for some guy.
And to us....who have been here....just see him as another guy......that hopefully won't turn out like the other guys that preceded him.
But yes, because we don't have our nostrils so near his anus as you do, we do see things more objectively.
We seem him merely as another candidate to be be the one to take the crown. But we also know that there have been candidates before him that have had somewhat similar histories.
I mean, we had the Golden Boy from Notre Dame.
The guy who won more college football games than anyone else.
We had the Red Rifle
We had the guy that made the grass in Kentucky blue.
So, let's put it this way: JFF has something to prove to us.
If he actually does fail like those other false Messiahs, well, unfortuneatly it is something we are used to by now. We are not going to jump off Terminal Tower......but I may have concerns about you....and may want to alert the security forces of the tallest building in Katy TX to keep you off their roof. (Can I assume we are probably talking about a grain silo?)
A cosmic coincidence, but the Red Rifle is Andy Dalton's nickname, who is apparently from Katy, TX.We had the Red Rifle
-
i always thought the bloody wings and the red rifle could be had on the same night?
-
if i have a fantasy football player (let's say aj green) that does not make me a bengals fan? no. does it make me root for him to get certain points? yes. doesn't mean "let's go bengals!"
there are only a couple of JF fans on here who totally love him and could care less about the browns......to them i say find yourself a JF forum.
no disrespect, but why torture us with your misgivings about the team we root for to promote the player you love?
if i have a fantasy football player (let's say aj green) that does not make me a bengals fan? no. does it make me root for him to get certain points? yes. doesn't mean "let's go bengals!"
there are only a couple of JF fans on here who totally love him and could care less about the browns......to them i say find yourself a JF forum.
no disrespect, but why torture us with your misgivings about the team we root for to promote the player you love?
fantasy football has strong undercurrents of covert gayness
f katy
-
Actually, I hope not. I hope he is much better. FYI, no offense to him because he is an all time favorite, but, Brian Sipe never won a single postseason game for the Browns......and I certainly hope/wish/expect JFF to do better than that.
The only Browns QB to ever win a League MVP award. Yeah he wasn't that good. Ozzie lost that PO game against the raiders or he would of had a win.
The only Browns QB to ever win a League MVP award. Yeah he wasn't that good. Ozzie lost that PO game against the raiders or he would of had a win.
Regarding Sipe's MVP- yes, he was that good for a couple of years. But to blame that playoff loss on Ozzie is ridiculous. I should know, I was there, and had a ringside seat in what was to become the Dawg Pound. If you want to pin the blame on anyone for that loss- put it on Coach Riverboat Sam. Yeah, it was cold- but they were in easy Don Cockroft FG range- that would have won the game. FWIW Newsome was triple covered- the second Sipe let go of the ball it was obvious there was no way in hell Ozzie would have a chance at it- it was badly underthrown. BTW, Dave Logan happened to be wide open on the other side.
-
A cosmic coincidence, but the Red Rifle is Andy Dalton's nickname, who is apparently from Katy, TX.We had the Red Rifle
A cosmic coincidence, but the Red Rifle is Andy Dalton's nickname, who is apparently from Katy, TX.
Oh,,,,OK....what was Weeden's nickname?
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better ๐
Register Login