Jonathan Paul Manziel
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@everlastingxxx said:
I rewatched the Vikings game to try to see what all these Hoyer fan see in him. He showed some poise and good accuracy but he also made some really bad decisions. 2 Interceptions where he completely didnt see the defender and misread the coverage. Another interception where he had his arm hit because he didnt anticipate the pressure. The second game was more of a defensive battle. He threw alot of check-downs. 2 fucking games to evaluate the guy. What happens when the other team starts getting real game tape on him and tailors a game plan around his strengths? Whats his upside? Why did the best coach in NFL let him go if he is the next Tom Brady? Hoyer has just as many questions that need to be answered.
Yup... In game 1 he missed a couple reads in his first start in years... and went on to win a shoot out.
And in game 2 he took what was given, had zero turnovers and managed us to a three-TD win in a defensive struggle.
Two polar opposite routes to two wins. It's a flexibility, and a willingness to subjugate his performance to the greater good of the team, that I have yet to see in JM.
Yup, Hoyer's a thin resume, but it is a promising one. Promising enough to warrant entering TC as the #1. From there it is let the best man win...
Hoyer has earned his shot and maybe a year on the bench will be good for Johnny.
But Johnny will play during 2014 at some point. No doubt in my mind.
Walter, I actually had to "+1" you for that post. Agree 100%...
Zombo said:
Glad I am a Browns fan, I win either way ... rather than a fan of a dude. Kinda creepy.
I'm a Zombo fan... How creepy is that?
Aside:
Can't wait for the 2014 edition of "This Week in the AFCN".
You're goin' down... at least vs. the spread...
Aside:
Can't wait for the 2014 edition of "This Week in the AFCN".
You're goin' down... at least vs. the spread...
I'm going to Vegas during prime NFL season in early November so I can't wait to start practicing with the browns board spread this year. I bet last year and failed epically so I'm going to pay a lot closer attention to how it all usually breaks down.
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I think just buy a jersey with no name on it is the safest.
I think just buy a jersey with no name on it is the safest.
I have a classic, nameless #32...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
@everlastingxxx said:
A QB list i thought was really interesting. I didnt put it together. Credit to cmd34 at dcu
Starting QB's in the NFL:
Buffalo - 1st round pick *
Miami - 1st round pick *
New England - 6th round pick ****
NY Jets - 1st round pick or 2nd round pick *
Baltimore - 1st round pick ***
Cincinnati - 2nd round pick ***
Cleveland - 1st round pick most likely or UDFA (Hoyer) *
Pittsburgh - 1st round pick ****
Houston - 7th round pick *
Indianapolis - 1st round pick ***
Jacksonville - 2nd round pick or 1st round pick *
Tennessee - 1st round pick *
Denver - 1st round pick ****
Kansas City - 1st round pick **
Oakland - 3rd round pick *
San Diego - 1st round pick ***
Dallas - UDFA ***
NY Giants - 1st round pick ****
Philadelphia - 3rd round pick ***
Washington - 1st round pick *
Chicago - 1st round pick ***
Detroit - 1st round pick ***
Green Bay - 1st round pick ****
Minnesota - 7th round pick or 1st round pick or 1st round pick *
Atlanta - 1st round pick ***
Carolina - 1st round pick ***
New Orleans - 2nd round pick ****
Tampa Bay - 3rd round pick or 3rd round pick *
Arizona - 1st round pick ***
St. Louis - 1st round pick **
San Francisco - 2nd round pick ***
Seattle - 3rd round pick ***
* = still unproven
** = ok
*** = good
**** = great
so 2 out of the 6 GREAT nfl QBs were not first round picks.
4 out of the 13 GOOD nfl QBs were not first round picks.
both OK qbs were first round picks
3 out of the remaining 11 UNPROVEN QBs were not first round picks.
so more than 1/3 of the league is in the same boat as the browns.
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@everlastingxxx said:
A QB list i thought was really interesting. I didnt put it together. Credit to cmd34 at dcu
Starting QB's in the NFL:
Buffalo - 1st round pick *
Miami - 1st round pick *
New England - 6th round pick ****
NY Jets - 1st round pick or 2nd round pick *
Baltimore - 1st round pick ***
Cincinnati - 2nd round pick ***
Cleveland - 1st round pick most likely or UDFA (Hoyer) *
Pittsburgh - 1st round pick ****
Houston - 7th round pick *
Indianapolis - 1st round pick ***
Jacksonville - 2nd round pick or 1st round pick *
Tennessee - 1st round pick *
Denver - 1st round pick ****
Kansas City - 1st round pick **
Oakland - 3rd round pick *
San Diego - 1st round pick ***
Dallas - UDFA ***
NY Giants - 1st round pick ****
Philadelphia - 3rd round pick ***
Washington - 1st round pick *
Chicago - 1st round pick ***
Detroit - 1st round pick ***
Green Bay - 1st round pick ****
Minnesota - 7th round pick or 1st round pick or 1st round pick *
Atlanta - 1st round pick ***
Carolina - 1st round pick ***
New Orleans - 2nd round pick ****
Tampa Bay - 3rd round pick or 3rd round pick *
Arizona - 1st round pick ***
St. Louis - 1st round pick **
San Francisco - 2nd round pick ***
Seattle - 3rd round pick ***
* = still unproven
** = ok
*** = good
**** = great
so 2 out of the 6 GREAT nfl QBs were not first round picks.
4 out of the 13 GOOD nfl QBs were not first round picks.
both OK qbs were first round picks
3 out of the remaining 11 UNPROVEN QBs were not first round picks.
so more than 1/3 of the league is in the same boat as the browns.
@everlastingxxx said:
These guys are exceptions to the rule, not the norm. Romo is the only undrafted free agent QB starting in the NFL. Think about that for a second. The Browns ownership and coaching staff evaluated those 2 games and came to the conclusion that Hoyer was not a franchise QB so they used a #1 draft pick to upgrade the position. If Manziel is a bust and shits himself then you wasted a #1 pick when you could have used it on another player that could have helped you this season.
In the end Manziel is going to win. He will get the keys to the offense their this season or next or 3 years down the road. If he has the luxury of sitting and not getting thrown to the wolves day one, thats a good thing.
What the hell is creepy about being a fan of a player? Who gives a fuck? You sit around and watch grown men run around in spandex grabbing each other. Then you sit around all day and talk with other men about men playing sports.
It's not that the Browns FO didn't think Hoyer could be good enough to win- (damn he won every game he played in last year.) It's as everyone on this board has said- there is an insufficient body of work to properly evaluate him. I'd call it hedging your bets. If the Browns thought Manziel was that great a prospect- as the Johnny thumpers seem to believe, they wouldn't have screwed around taking a chance- and drafted him at #4 overall.
And yes, us Browns fans fully realize Hoyer could be a 3 game wonder, we saw Derek Anderson essentially flame out after 8 or so games when NFL defensive coordinators figured out if you took away his deep stuff, he couldn't throw short to save his life.
FYI- Hoyer taking the Browns to the playoffs would be as big a story in Cleveland as Le Bron coming back.
* = still unproven
** = ok
*** = good
**** = great
so 2 out of the 6 GREAT nfl QBs were not first round picks.
4 out of the 13 GOOD nfl QBs were not first round picks.
both OK qbs were first round picks
3 out of the remaining 11 UNPROVEN QBs were not first round picks.
so more than 1/3 of the league is in the same boat as the browns.
Yeah, and a lot of those first round quarterbacks are being replaced by yet another first round quarterback- like the Jags and Vikings. JFF supporters are just so positive he's the best thing to hit the NFL since Andrew Luck. We'll see soon enough.
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@everlastingxxx said:
These guys are exceptions to the rule, not the norm. Romo is the only undrafted free agent QB starting in the NFL. Think about that for a second. The Browns ownership and coaching staff evaluated those 2 games and came to the conclusion that Hoyer was not a franchise QB so they used a #1 draft pick to upgrade the position. If Manziel is a bust and shits himself then you wasted a #1 pick when you could have used it on another player that could have helped you this season.
In the end Manziel is going to win. He will get the keys to the offense their this season or next or 3 years down the road. If he has the luxury of sitting and not getting thrown to the wolves day one, thats a good thing.
What the hell is creepy about being a fan of a player? Who gives a fuck? You sit around and watch grown men run around in spandex grabbing each other. Then you sit around all day and talk with other men about men playing sports.
So the QB on your own team is an undrafted FA, but you don't give it a chance of happening again? OK.
Manziel is a Brown now, and things will be done the Browns way. We are the team that stepped up and took him at #22 (after we passed on him twice) when he was dropping like a rock.
Chances of Brian Hoyer being a franchise qb ... not good.
Chances for Manziel ... better.
But he didn't get passed over 21 times because he's a sure thing, and Hoyer didn't win his starts last year because he can't play in this league.
Manziel is the more talented guy, and if he is able to lock in on the offense and prove he's a big time player in the NFL .. he will surpass Hoyer eventually.
But, as Browns fans, we have the luxury of rooting for both.
We all want to see Hoyer do great this year, and we all want to see Manziel develop into a cornerstone for this franchise.
Now the "Manziel fan" who will root for 52 other guys he doesn't care about so that they do well and their one guy can succeed ... that's weird.
If Ohio St. had a great QB who got drafted by Dallas and Browns "fans" were on Cowboys message boards all the time rooting for him, that would be fucked up.
Pick a team. That is tied into your community or your heart.
Root for one guy and he may just dump on you like Lance Armstrong. But you are welcome to it. Just don't expect us to embrace your carpetbagging ways or root any less for the other QBs on our team.
Zombo
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When Bernie was traded to Dallas, I was pissed, but I didn't become a Cowboys fan.
"You planning on having a long relationship with that glass or are you going to drink it? Drink up, man. Maybe we can get another.” - Janis Joplin, 1970. -
@everlastingxxx said:
These guys are exceptions to the rule, not the norm. Romo is the only undrafted free agent QB starting in the NFL. Think about that for a second. The Browns ownership and coaching staff evaluated those 2 games and came to the conclusion that Hoyer was not a franchise QB so they used a #1 draft pick to upgrade the position. If Manziel is a bust and shits himself then you wasted a #1 pick when you could have used it on another player that could have helped you this season.
In the end Manziel is going to win. He will get the keys to the offense their this season or next or 3 years down the road. If he has the luxury of sitting and not getting thrown to the wolves day one, thats a good thing.
What the hell is creepy about being a fan of a player? Who gives a fuck? You sit around and watch grown men run around in spandex grabbing each other. Then you sit around all day and talk with other men about men playing sports.
I agree that JFF wasn't brought here to sit on the bench.....but remember, we have a lot of experience at this where the highly touted, highly drafted guy can't beat out another QB on this team.
Remember, JFF was drafted at the same slot as both Brandon Weeden and Brady Quinn....so don't tell us a guy drafted that high can't bit the big one.
Brady Quinn #22 was brought in to be the starting QB, but could not beat out Derek Anderson....and Anderson turned out to be pretty bad. Weeden, #22, could not really beat out the likes of Jason Campbell and...Brian Hoyer.
We have had the winningest college QB ever here.....Colt McCoy....and he had troubles beating out the likes of Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace......so don't tell us that big time Texas QBs can't suck it.
We had Couch/Kelly Holcomb.
So, yes, JFF was brought here to play. But the question still remains, can he do what Couch/Weeden/Quinn/McCoy didn't do.....play and win?
The answer is a total unknown.
(and yes, it is creepy to be a fan of a player. This ain't golf or tennis, teams win and lose, and you root for teams.
If JFF makes Hoyer the next Drew Bledsoe, fine. But we here cannot discount that he might himself might be the next Brady Quinn.
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When Bernie was traded to Dallas, I was pissed, but I didn't become a Cowboys fan.
When Bernie was traded to Dallas, I was pissed, but I didn't become a Cowboys fan.
Well, BK was a FA I believe- and yes I was rooting for Bernie to do well- just to spite Bill B, but I didn't become a Cowboys fan. Call it casual interest.
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When Bernie was traded to Dallas, I was pissed, but I didn't become a Cowboys fan.
Well, BK was a FA I believe- and yes I was rooting for Bernie to do well- just to spite Bill B, but I didn't become a Cowboys fan. Call it casual interest.
Well, BK was a FA I believe- and yes I was rooting for Bernie to do well- just to spite Bill B, but I didn't become a Cowboys fan. Call it casual interest.
Yea, well, think about it, BB cut BK in favor of Todd Philcox. Do you think Jimmy Johnson and Jerry Jones would have given Todd Philcox a contract for a million dollars to play backup for the rest of that season for them? Unlikely.
So, yes, that sparked some interest in how Bernie would do that year. But I still was rooting for the Bills to win that year, not the Cowboys.
But, you know....in a sense, I am somewhat just like Everlast........He is rooting for the QB that came from his school (I assume T-A&M is his school) that was drafted by the Browns.
I too had the opportunity to root for a QB from my school that was drafted by the Browns.......by the name of Charlie Frye. And we know how that turned out.
Let's hope that JFF does not turn out to be the next Charlie Frye.
(but, you know, I am fearful there is a chance he just might)
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OK folks, where is JFF going to fall eventually on this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cleveland_Browns_starting_quarterbacks
I did not copy this here because it would get messy. Note, you probably have to add about 35-40 wins to Otto Graham's total as this compilation does not include his totals in the AAFC.
As I understand it, he is like just one win behind Sipe in total victories in his career.
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Here is a list of Cleveland Browns starting quarterbacks selected to the Pro Bowl.[1]
Quarterback Season(s) selected Otto Graham 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954 Tommy O'Connell 1957 Milt Plum 1960, 1961 Frank Ryan 1964, 1965, 1966 Bill Nelson 1969 Bernie Kosar 1987 Derek Anderson 2007They have this as part of that site....but I question it.....how could Brian Sipe be league MVP in 1980....yet not make the Pro Bowl?
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I have nothing but a hunch that Johnny Football is going to be a great Quarterback. Think he will be the starter after Bye week.
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brady quinn dropped to 22. it was so embarrassing they had to put him in the crying room.
i thought for sure if we would have passed on manziel @22 that's where he would have ended up but he came out flashing the money sign.
kid's got moxie i'll give him that.
sheeiit.
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brady quinn dropped to 22. it was so embarrassing they had to put him in the crying room.
i thought for sure if we would have passed on manziel @22 that's where he would have ended up but he came out flashing the money sign.
kid's got moxie i'll give him that.
sheeiit.
brady quinn dropped to 22. it was so embarrassing they had to put him in the crying room.
i thought for sure if we would have passed on manziel @22 that's where he would have ended up but he came out flashing the money sign.
kid's got moxie i'll give him that.
sheeiit.
Remember Brady Queen also sat out a lot of the training camp before he signed.
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has anyone looked at hoyer's career.?
his greatest accoimplishment? Big 10 honorable mention.
this just baffles me.
you have 1 QB that might be able to make you a Super Bowl contender,
it ain't the guy who's been released twice, coming off a torn ACL and started something like 4 games in 5 years.
but, hey, some people like 7-2 if they're suited, good luck with that.
Because no one has ever succeeded after a mediocre career in the Big Ten (Tom Brady)
Because no one has ever ever succeeded after failing with other teams (Jim Plunkett, Rich Gannon, Brad Johnson,Doug Williams, Steve Young)
Because no one has ever floundered anonymously before shocking the world (Kurt Warner)
If you keep cutting Brian Hoyer down, your boy is going to look real bad if he can't beat him out.
Glad I am a Browns fan, I win either way ... rather than a fan of a dude. Kinda creepy.
Zombo
Zombo said:
Because no one has ever succeeded after a mediocre career in the Big Ten (Tom Brady)
Because no one has ever ever succeeded after failing with other teams (Jim Plunkett, Rich Gannon, Brad Johnson,Doug Williams, Steve Young)
Because no one has ever floundered anonymously before shocking the world (Kurt Warner)
If you keep cutting Brian Hoyer down, your boy is going to look real bad if he can't beat him out.
Glad I am a Browns fan, I win either way ... rather than a fan of a dude. Kinda creepy.
Zombo
IMHO, excellent post Zombo. I am a Fan of both Hoyer & Manziel. While I believe Manziel is our QB of the future, like you I root for & support the Browns TEAM & I trust our current regime with the decisions to take us forward.
Mike
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in a bathroom rolling a 20 dollar bill
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If he keeps his head on a swivel and doesn't do anything dumb... The sky is the limit for the DragonSlayer.
The secret of getting ahead is getting started. The secret of getting started is breaking your complex overwhelming tasks into small manageable tasks, and then starting on the first one. -Mark Twain- "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." -Mark Twain- -
It was just interssting to realize that in 10 seasons.. He won 7 championships.. thats unheard of.. thats like finishing 70% for his career.. good stuff Gipper.
It was just interssting to realize that in 10 seasons.. He won 7 championships.. thats unheard of.. thats like finishing 70% for his career.. good stuff Gipper.
Yeah- Grahams accomplishments get lost in the mists of time. Graham played in the highest level Championship game every year he played professional football.
Can you imagine the ESPN hype today if a quarterback played in 10 straight Super Bowls?
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