Jonathan Paul Manziel
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check please!
obtuse is too soft a word for what you are.
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If you go to Vikings boards and Jaguars boards you do not see anybody who is saying "Well I think Chad Henne should be the future, Bortles might be a bust" or "Matt Cassell is our guy, sure he's been cut a few times, but I like what I saw". Nope. None. You won't even see any "Henne vs Bortles" threads or likewise for the Vikings.
Those fan bases are very excited for their Rookies, its all about "Should Teddy start game 1 or do you want him to sit and get comfortable until mid season?"
Yet on here with some of you it is if Brian Hoyer is the future and Manziel is a wasted pick. Someone is going to have to explain to me why we don't have the same understanding that these QBs were drafted to be the future, and why there is not the excitement about Manziel on here as there is in Minnesota and Jacksonville?
Why is it that Hoyer, on par with Henne and Cassell, is considered by some to be the QB that the Browns need and some would prefer him than Manziel long term?@mike-h said:
It's the ignorant people who post in high volume and are unwilling to even accept listening to others' opinions...
Child, please... something about a pot and kettle comes to mind.
Problem is those of us of a certain age are mature and secure enough to understand that opinions can be heard yet still not accepted. Someday perhaps you will understand that as well. But right now you are in the midst of some self-important, "my-shit-don't-stink" phase that precludes that possibility.
Gotta go point by point again...
If you go to Vikings boards and Jaguars boards you do not see anybody who is saying "Well I think Chad Henne should be the future, Bortles might be a bust" or "Matt Cassell is our guy, sure he's been cut a few times, but I like what I saw". Nope. None. You won't even see any "Henne vs Bortles" threads or likewise for the Vikings.
So your point is that those other forums are completely devoid of objectivity? Of Henne/Bortles and Cassel/Bridgewater which two would you say give their team the best chance to wi opening day??
Those fan bases are very excited for their Rookies, its all about "Should Teddy start game 1 or do you want him to sit and get comfortable until mid season?"
And some here are excited about JM and want him to sit and get comfortable... be it for 3, 8 or 16 games. I do not see you point here.
Yet on here with some of you it is if Brian Hoyer is the future and Manziel is a wasted pick. Someone is going to have to explain to me why we don't have the same understanding that these QBs were drafted to be the future, and why there is not the excitement about Manziel on here as there is in Minnesota and Jacksonville?
So you are seeking nothing less then unanimity. One mind... one thought... no dissention.
We, even the dissenters, are well aware of the fact that 1st round picks are expected to be the future. That with the singular exception of QB, 1st rounders are expected to start Season 1, Game 1.
Why is it that Hoyer, on par with Henne and Cassell, is considered by some to be the QB that the Browns need and some would prefer him than Manziel long term?
Again... Who has said "prefer BH long-term"? If someone has, then I missed it.
I do not accept that BH is on par with Henne and Cassel. Henne's 6-year, 50-start career has conclusively earned him his journeyman status. Cassel on the other hand has shown that he has the ability to lead the right team and be a solid starter in the NFL. What works against him now is his age, now 32. He is a placeholder on his way to journeyman.
In the short-term... all I can say is that having seen the spark Hoyer provided in 2013, reinforced by the professionalism and leadership he has displayed from the start of OTAs, I like the chances that he can be our immediate future. Once his resume grows, we shall see how long immediate lasts.
Que sera sera...
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Manziel has enough people in the media attacking him, you'd think he'd get a break from the Browns fans at least.
But nope. Don't want to support the future QB of the Browns. Well why not? Oh because he takes selfies and parties in Vegas.
Sounds fair. What fantastic fans to play for. -
@everlastingxxx said:
Its something that really surprised me when i first joined here. The mocking of him. The putting down of those thats enjoy watching him play. Weird dynamics. I think many of your observations are the same ones i noticed aswell.
And yet now you love us...
Seriously it is not the nearly pegged-out degree to which you or Walter or now Stockton believe in JM.
It is the inability to accept that our JohnnyMeters (trademark pending) are not pegged out.
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You can say all you want that College success doesn't guarantee NFL success, and you're correct.
However it is a pretty good indicator. If you're a great player in college you have a much better chance at being a good NFL player than a player who wasn't great in college.
You're treating it like it's a crap shoot. It's not a crap shoot. Those players drafted in the 1st round, were picked because they were great in college. Now some will not live up to it in the NFL, but they're far more likely to become Pro Bowl players than 5th round picks and there's a reason for that.You can say all you want that College success doesn't guarantee NFL success, and you're correct.
However it is a pretty good indicator. If you're a great player in college you have a much better chance at being a good NFL player than a player who wasn't great in college.
You're treating it like it's a crap shoot. It's not a crap shoot. Those players drafted in the 1st round, were picked because they were great in college. Now some will not live up to it in the NFL, but they're far more likely to become Pro Bowl players than 5th round picks and there's a reason for that.
Not saying first round picks don't have better odds.
Manziel has enough people in the media attacking him, you'd think he'd get a break from the Browns fans at least.
But nope. Don't want to support the future QB of the Browns. Well why not? Oh because he takes selfies and parties in Vegas.
Sounds fair. What fantastic fans to play for.
There's a difference between supporting him, and thinking his shit don't stink.
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Manziel has enough people in the media attacking him, you'd think he'd get a break from the Browns fans at least.
But nope. Don't want to support the future QB of the Browns. Well why not? Oh because he takes selfies and parties in Vegas.
Sounds fair. What fantastic fans to play for.Manziel has enough people in the media attacking him, you'd think he'd get a break from the Browns fans at least.
But nope. Don't want to support the future QB of the Browns. Well why not? Oh because he takes selfies and parties in Vegas.
Sounds fair. What fantastic fans to play for.
you are beating a dead horse schleprock.
wozzy wozzy woh woh.
we browns fans aren't worthy. we all hate him. we want him to fail.
you are a dipshit and should just keep on moving to the next forum where they will undoubtedly find you just as annoying.
go away.
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Josh Gordon, Ben Tate...4,5...shit Bitonio--also a rookie--may win position battle at guard and start.Viagraxxx said:
My comment is predicated on the future and what he will be this season. Besides, i thought Manziel was the best player on the Texas A&M offense and two other players were picked before him! I think he makes everyone better and is the fuel that keeps the offense running. Its an opinion obviously. Thomas, Cameron and Mack are great. Had i said Manziel was the 4th best player on the offense would that have made you feel better?
maybe the FO feels although the opportunity may be presented ideally it's in Johnny's best interest to watch and learn for now.
and there's nothing at all wrong with that.
different players, different plans.
if Brian merely warms up the drivers seat before getting surpassed and Manziel era begins then whatever. i want the best player available regardless of whoever that may be.
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Manziel has enough people in the media attacking him, you'd think he'd get a break from the Browns fans at least.
But nope. Don't want to support the future QB of the Browns. Well why not? Oh because he takes selfies and parties in Vegas.
Sounds fair. What fantastic fans to play for.Manziel has enough people in the media attacking him, you'd think he'd get a break from the Browns fans at least.
But nope. Don't want to support the future QB of the Browns. Well why not? Oh because he takes selfies and parties in Vegas.
Sounds fair. What fantastic fans to play for.
Damn. I didn't realize we had to adjust our attitudes for a rookie. I thought it was the other way around.
"You planning on having a long relationship with that glass or are you going to drink it? Drink up, man. Maybe we can get another.” - Janis Joplin, 1970. -
You can say all you want that College success doesn't guarantee NFL success, and you're correct.
However it is a pretty good indicator. If you're a great player in college you have a much better chance at being a good NFL player than a player who wasn't great in college.
You're treating it like it's a crap shoot. It's not a crap shoot. Those players drafted in the 1st round, were picked because they were great in college. Now some will not live up to it in the NFL, but they're far more likely to become Pro Bowl players than 5th round picks and there's a reason for that.You can say all you want that College success doesn't guarantee NFL success, and you're correct.
However it is a pretty good indicator. If you're a great player in college you have a much better chance at being a good NFL player than a player who wasn't great in college.
You're treating it like it's a crap shoot. It's not a crap shoot. Those players drafted in the 1st round, were picked because they were great in college. Now some will not live up to it in the NFL, but they're far more likely to become Pro Bowl players than 5th round picks and there's a reason for that.
Your second statement is absolutely incorrect. Every player has exactly the same chance to be good in the NFL as anyone else, regardless of college career. It's not the college career that makes a player successful in the NFL. It's the talent level the player possesses that makes them successful at both levels.
There are an infinite amount of variables that can affect how successful a player becomes in the NFL. Scheme fit, maturity, weather, coaching, supporting cast, freak injuries, player strikes, family tragedies, car accidents - all of those can affect a player's chances of having a strong NFL career.
But having success in college doesn't indicate success in the NFL. Not one bit. It's not a predictor.
Partly because "success" is too relative a term. What is succesful for one program may not be successful for another. Sure, Peyton Manning was a success in college and is a success in the NFL. Same goes for Andrew Luck and RG3. But would you call Brady's college career a success? What about Ryan Tannehill's? What about Nick Foles'? Stafford's? Their careers were, for the most part, underwhelming. Singularly, they were successful players. But they never won a championship, never won a Heisman, never went undefeated.
Jeremiah Masoli had a decently successful career with Oregon. As did Dennis Dixon. Neither of them have amounted to shit in the NFL .
In a way, it is a crap shoot. It's not a crap shoot in terms of talent. Johnny is immensly talented. But what is a crap shoot is everything else. Hoyer may go on to flip a switch and become great. Johnny may tear an ACL in training camp. Manziel may get the start and half of the offensive line may go down with injury.
I love Manziel. I absolutely love the pick. Because, even if he crashes and burns, he'll have brought a bunch of media attention to the team during this transition phase. To those who poo-poo the attention and claim it's negative...there's no such thing as negative publicity. Airtime, whether good or bad, is airtime.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Manziel has enough people in the media attacking him, you'd think he'd get a break from the Browns fans at least.
But nope. Don't want to support the future QB of the Browns. Well why not? Oh because he takes selfies and parties in Vegas.
Sounds fair. What fantastic fans to play for.Manziel has enough people in the media attacking him, you'd think he'd get a break from the Browns fans at least.
But nope. Don't want to support the future QB of the Browns. Well why not? Oh because he takes selfies and parties in Vegas.
Sounds fair. What fantastic fans to play for.
And the hate card hits the table... Game Over...
It's been good attempting to talk to you.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Hey, TC... good to see you...
I was just reading this Hoyer article on your site by Dudukovich.
It has some takes that I hadn't considered. Also has explains some circumstances around his career to date that I was unaware of.
http://factoryofsadness.co/2014/07/27/brian-hoyers-ceiling-quarterback-higher-think/
Basic premise is that the reason JM is not and may not be beating out Hoyer is because BH has more upside than people think.
Good read even tho it did not completely agree with me...
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You can say all you want that College success doesn't guarantee NFL success, and you're correct.
However it is a pretty good indicator. If you're a great player in college you have a much better chance at being a good NFL player than a player who wasn't great in college.
You're treating it like it's a crap shoot. It's not a crap shoot. Those players drafted in the 1st round, were picked because they were great in college. Now some will not live up to it in the NFL, but they're far more likely to become Pro Bowl players than 5th round picks and there's a reason for that.
Your second statement is absolutely incorrect. Every player has exactly the same chance to be good in the NFL as anyone else, regardless of college career. It's not the college career that makes a player successful in the NFL. It's the talent level the player possesses that makes them successful at both levels.
There are an infinite amount of variables that can affect how successful a player becomes in the NFL. Scheme fit, maturity, weather, coaching, supporting cast, freak injuries, player strikes, family tragedies, car accidents - all of those can affect a player's chances of having a strong NFL career.
But having success in college doesn't indicate success in the NFL. Not one bit. It's not a predictor.
Partly because "success" is too relative a term. What is succesful for one program may not be successful for another. Sure, Peyton Manning was a success in college and is a success in the NFL. Same goes for Andrew Luck and RG3. But would you call Brady's college career a success? What about Ryan Tannehill's? What about Nick Foles'? Stafford's? Their careers were, for the most part, underwhelming. Singularly, they were successful players. But they never won a championship, never won a Heisman, never went undefeated.
Jeremiah Masoli had a decently successful career with Oregon. As did Dennis Dixon. Neither of them have amounted to shit in the NFL .
In a way, it is a crap shoot. It's not a crap shoot in terms of talent. Johnny is immensly talented. But what is a crap shoot is everything else. Hoyer may go on to flip a switch and become great. Johnny may tear an ACL in training camp. Manziel may get the start and half of the offensive line may go down with injury.
I love Manziel. I absolutely love the pick. Because, even if he crashes and burns, he'll have brought a bunch of media attention to the team during this transition phase. To those who poo-poo the attention and claim it's negative...there's no such thing as negative publicity. Airtime, whether good or bad, is airtime.
Your second statement is absolutely incorrect. Every player has exactly the same chance to be good in the NFL as anyone else, regardless of college career. It's not the college career that makes a player successful in the NFL. It's the talent level the player possesses that makes them successful at both levels.
There are an infinite amount of variables that can affect how successful a player becomes in the NFL. Scheme fit, maturity, weather, coaching, supporting cast, freak injuries, player strikes, family tragedies, car accidents - all of those can affect a player's chances of having a strong NFL career.
But having success in college doesn't indicate success in the NFL. Not one bit. It's not a predictor.
Partly because "success" is too relative a term. What is succesful for one program may not be successful for another. Sure, Peyton Manning was a success in college and is a success in the NFL. Same goes for Andrew Luck and RG3. But would you call Brady's college career a success? What about Ryan Tannehill's? What about Nick Foles'? Stafford's? Their careers were, for the most part, underwhelming. Singularly, they were successful players. But they never won a championship, never won a Heisman, never went undefeated.
Jeremiah Masoli had a decently successful career with Oregon. As did Dennis Dixon. Neither of them have amounted to shit in the NFL .
In a way, it is a crap shoot. It's not a crap shoot in terms of talent. Johnny is immensly talented. But what is a crap shoot is everything else. Hoyer may go on to flip a switch and become great. Johnny may tear an ACL in training camp. Manziel may get the start and half of the offensive line may go down with injury.
I love Manziel. I absolutely love the pick. Because, even if he crashes and burns, he'll have brought a bunch of media attention to the team during this transition phase. To those who poo-poo the attention and claim it's negative...there's no such thing as negative publicity. Airtime, whether good or bad, is airtime.
i love it as well. i used to be grateful for the 10 sec browns highlight on sunday night primetime.
what i don't get is the flip flop of the networks showing manziel. first the analysts (most ex-jocks) want to castrate manziel for his off-season stuff but instead of dissing him with no air time they go on to show in loops his pressers, his TC footage.
i'll take the coverage even though 75% of it is TMZ-like laced.
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Manziel has enough people in the media attacking him, you'd think he'd get a break from the Browns fans at least.
But nope. Don't want to support the future QB of the Browns. Well why not? Oh because he takes selfies and parties in Vegas.
Sounds fair. What fantastic fans to play for.HoyerHater said:
Manziel has enough people in the media attacking him, you'd think he'd get a break from the Browns fans at least.
But nope. Don't want to support the future QB of the Browns. Well why not? Oh because he takes selfies and parties in Vegas.
Sounds fair. What fantastic fans to play for.
misguided agenda much?
direct it specifically where it belongs.
**eruption of muffled chants "We love Johnny Scrambles!! Hip Hip Hooray!!" from a chorus of cock filled mouths**
better?
you obviously don't know Cleveland's story.
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You can say all you want that College success doesn't guarantee NFL success, and you're correct.
However it is a pretty good indicator. If you're a great player in college you have a much better chance at being a good NFL player than a player who wasn't great in college.
You're treating it like it's a crap shoot. It's not a crap shoot. Those players drafted in the 1st round, were picked because they were great in college. Now some will not live up to it in the NFL, but they're far more likely to become Pro Bowl players than 5th round picks and there's a reason for that.
Your second statement is absolutely incorrect. Every player has exactly the same chance to be good in the NFL as anyone else, regardless of college career. It's not the college career that makes a player successful in the NFL. It's the talent level the player possesses that makes them successful at both levels.
There are an infinite amount of variables that can affect how successful a player becomes in the NFL. Scheme fit, maturity, weather, coaching, supporting cast, freak injuries, player strikes, family tragedies, car accidents - all of those can affect a player's chances of having a strong NFL career.
But having success in college doesn't indicate success in the NFL. Not one bit. It's not a predictor.
Partly because "success" is too relative a term. What is succesful for one program may not be successful for another. Sure, Peyton Manning was a success in college and is a success in the NFL. Same goes for Andrew Luck and RG3. But would you call Brady's college career a success? What about Ryan Tannehill's? What about Nick Foles'? Stafford's? Their careers were, for the most part, underwhelming. Singularly, they were successful players. But they never won a championship, never won a Heisman, never went undefeated.
Jeremiah Masoli had a decently successful career with Oregon. As did Dennis Dixon. Neither of them have amounted to shit in the NFL .
In a way, it is a crap shoot. It's not a crap shoot in terms of talent. Johnny is immensly talented. But what is a crap shoot is everything else. Hoyer may go on to flip a switch and become great. Johnny may tear an ACL in training camp. Manziel may get the start and half of the offensive line may go down with injury.
I love Manziel. I absolutely love the pick. Because, even if he crashes and burns, he'll have brought a bunch of media attention to the team during this transition phase. To those who poo-poo the attention and claim it's negative...there's no such thing as negative publicity. Airtime, whether good or bad, is airtime.
I love Manziel. I absolutely love the pick. Because, even if he crashes and burns, he'll have brought a bunch of media attention to the team during this transition phase. To those who poo-poo the attention and claim it's negative...there's no such thing as negative publicity. Airtime, whether good or bad, is airtime.
Totally agree. Every time I turn on the NFL Network, there are the Browns. Not the Cowboys, not the Stoolers, not the 9ers........ The Browns. It is pretty damn cool. I just finished watching a 7 minute Browns look in and got to hear them discuss the Browns while I got to the see QBs run through their drills....... Good stuff.
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Manziel has enough people in the media attacking him, you'd think he'd get a break from the Browns fans at least.
But nope. Don't want to support the future QB of the Browns. Well why not? Oh because he takes selfies and parties in Vegas.
Sounds fair. What fantastic fans to play for.
And the hate card hits the table... Game Over...
It's been good attempting to talk to you.
And the hate card hits the table... Game Over...
It's been good attempting to talk to you.
'OUR"?
this brian hoyer guy who blows and only has two games under his belt as a NFL starter is making manziel look like a rookie from a division 3 school and you can't handle it.
**eruption of muffled chants "We love Johnny Scrambles!! Hip Hip Hooray!!" from a chorus of cock filled mouths**
Gee I don't know where I get the idea that there is hate.
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Yep, you're right. Johnny is the greatest QB ever. He will win 21 SB's and they will rename the HoF after him. He's really kool, and likes to have fun..... Oh yea, he's really handsome too.
There, you feel better?
This is pretty sad to see some how some of you are.
I remember the days when it was all in. Albert Belle was an asshole, but he was CLEVELANDs asshole. People stuck by their players.
Looks like those days are long gone. Oh and in the meantime you're calling yourself "real fans" by rooting AGAINST our first round draft pick, mocking him, before he even takes a snap in the NFL.
What a disgrace.
This is pretty sad to see some how some of you are.
I remember the days when it was all in. Albert Belle was an asshole, but he was CLEVELANDs asshole. People stuck by their players.
So? Now we got you in his place?
Looks like those days are long gone. Oh and in the meantime you're calling yourself "real fans" by rooting AGAINST our first round draft pick, mocking him, before he even takes a snap in the NFL.
What a disgrace.
Who in the fuck ever said that anyone is rooting against him? That is insane...and totally wrong. I think all anyone here has said is that shalt not annoint him to sainthood yet.
Lets see if he can play and win anything yet. Winning a Heisman trophy means nothing. QBs Eric Croch, Jason White, Geno Torretta and othes won the Heisman trophy. Being a big winner in college means nothing....no one won more college football games than Colt McCoy.
Sorry, but we just need to see him win to be convinced......the same way we needed to see Quinn and Weeden and McCoy win to be convinced.
Sorry, but the skepticsm comes simply from experience....and not from anything negative about the kid.
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'OUR"?
GTFO.
you are as much of a browns fan as i am a TAMU fan. (nice analogy huh?).
what is your game? to beat us down with your diatribe on had bad hoyer is and how good manziel is? what is your payoff? do you really think you are going to sway anyone's opinon?
i know exactly what it is. YOU fear a true QB competition. YOU do care who is the starting QB. YOU will not be happy unless it is manziel.
this brian hoyer guy who blows and only has two games under his belt as a NFL starter is making manziel look like a rookie from a division 3 school and you can't handle it.
Right because I don't think Hoyer is Kurt Warner, AND I'm smart enough to realize that Manziel was drafted at 22 to become the starting QB of the Browns at some point and I can recognize that he was pretty good in the SEC, now I can't be a Browns fan. Makes sense.
Do you think the Browns took Manziel because they thought Hoyer was the answer? Do you suspect they think Hoyer is the next Kurt Warner?
At what point did reason go out the window with some of you? When did you lose the ability to use logic and evaluate the situation? Where is the objectivity?
Right because I don't think Hoyer is Kurt Warner, AND I'm smart enough to realize that Manziel was drafted at 22 to become the starting QB of the Browns at some point and I can recognize that he was pretty good in the SEC, now I can't be a Browns fan. Makes sense.
Having played in the SEC don't mean dick. As many or more failed QBs have come out of the SEC as out of any other conference.
Tim Couch, Tee Martin, Tim Tebow (and a few other FLA types), Jamarcus Russell....I guess I could go on.
Do you think the Browns took Manziel because they thought Hoyer was the answer? Do you suspect they think Hoyer is the next Kurt Warner?
No and no.
At what point did reason go out the window with some of you? When did you lose the ability to use logic and evaluate the situation? Where is the objectivity?
Again and again and again.....if experience is "reason", then that reason went out the window with Quinn/Weeden.
The objectivity is in this statement: This person has to prove that he can be a success where others in similar situations failed. That is pure logic.
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@everlastingxxx said:
Its something that really surprised me when i first joined here. The mocking of him. The putting down of those thats enjoy watching him play. Weird dynamics. I think many of your observations are the same ones i noticed aswell.
I think if there is any mocking it is of JFF's TMZ antics.
As far as watching him play.....well, some of us just weren't as focussed on watching him play
.....and here is a clue for you......we are in the Midwest....in Ohio.....while maybe they were broadcasting every game JFF played down where you are, they were broadcasting Ohio State, Big Ten games up here. Sure, we could see the nationally televised games he played in.....but there weren't as many of those as you think....maybe 2,3,4 is all.
We were seeing Braxton Miller actually run better as a QB than JFF. Sorry, but as a running QB, JFF can't compare to Miller.
Overall? We don't truly know yet.....but JFF seems far ahead at the total game.
And the dymanics are vastly different in the NFL. Observations of what he did in college are all well and good and fond memories....but it starts for real now.
The only observations that will count are the observations we see when this kid plays against the Detroit Lions, Green Bay Packers and the Steelers/Ravens/Bengals.
I hope I observe JFF wrecking those opponents......I do.
But I still have to see it to be convinced.
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Manziel will benefit from not being tossed in right away. Let the kid's knowledge of the game and chip on his shoulder grow.
The TMZ shit doesn't bother me, he's always been the same guy as far as the off the field stuff is concerned. He also showed up ready to play at a high level.
My concerns are the same they have always been: will his game translate to the NFL?
I guess we're strapped in for the ride now, should be fun...
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