Vick is ready
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read'em and weep.. the conversations have already started taking a serious tone. SF would be a good spot for Vick as it is a liberal venue. Singletary already says they have discussed it. It it's being discussed there.. it's being discussed all over. Someone will take the discussion to the next level. n Here is the article and I heard it on ESPN as well today. Oh.. and Hiway gal says he is not that good. I cannot think of anyone on our roster who is only 29 years olewith 3 probowls under his belt. (old man willie has 3 I think)
Michael Vick, QB, Atlanta Falcons Tuesday 2/17, 8:12 AM CT
The 49ers may be interested in Michael Vick, according to the Santa Rosa Press- Democrat. Head coach Mike Singletary said, "I am not going to say I am open or closed. I would say it has to be something GM Scot McCloughan and I talk about and feel good about one way or the other. But we have not talked about it at this point in great detail. We are trying to focus on what we have." Team President Jed York added, "If they felt it was right for the team, and convince me and my parents, it is up to them to show that somebody who has had issues in the past can be a part of this team."
Our View: The 49ers are currently the only known NFL club to express possible interest in Vick. If Vick did land in San Francisco, his primary competition at quarterback would be Shaun Hill.
read'em and weep.. the conversations have already started taking a serious tone. SF would be a good spot for Vick as it is a liberal venue.
This would be true, had his crimes 'only' been against humans, or, even more specifically, rich, old white guys (he would be a hero in that case). But he engaged in dog fighting, and the PETA crazies are thicker out there than anywhere else.
From a PR standpoint, I can't think of a much worse place than SF for Vick to land.
There's really no 'good' place for him to land. Just places that are 'less bad'.
Honestly, I can't see that he would be such a valuable addition that you MUST have him and the negative publicity would be offset by what he adds to the team. There will be better running backs with less baggage to be had, and pretty much better QBs just about anywhere.
I could see him landing in Canada, except I think the Canadians frown on his type of foolishness even more than most of us do.
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I wouldnt mind us picking up Vick as another WildDawg formation RB prospect, Vick, Cribbs, Harrison, and Quinn on the field at the same time... that would be rediculous... we could win the SB with that formation alone
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OLD COW: This is exactly the dismissive attitude I am talking about and I am pissed off about..... Sorry but I disagree.. it is WORSE than fighting dogs.... if you don't have a ride home BEFORE you go out.. you CHOSE to PURPOSELY endanger other peoples lives.. We have come to accept excuses for drinking and driving.. " Oh, i only had 3 or I only had 2" ... most of them in fact have had 5 or 6 drinks.... fact is before you have even ONE drink .... you need to check yourself. If you don't you are engangering HUMAN BEINGS.. People should not even drive after ONE beer. You can rationalize all you want on this.. but the fact is drinking and driving is a crime and puts others in danger... Think before you drink.. If you ask me people should lose the license to drive for 5 years first offense. period.. 2nd offense 10 years... then maybe people will wake up to the epidemic on our roadways.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Never would I agree that blowing a .009 is anywhere near killing dogs or wife beating or any other major criminal activity.
Sure, if you go out and knock down 6 or 8 or 20 and get behind the wheel then you should get thrown in jail and have the key thrown away. But even at that, the person is not the kind of mentally ill person that Mike Vick is....And that is what concerns me. The Narcissitic pathology that can be spread through culture.
This issue simply can't be black in white. There has to be a certain amount of reason and common sense involved when we talk about this. Again, a person that almost never drinks, works hard, is a good person, etc, but then one day decides to have a cocktail or two after dinner and gets nabbed for a .009 DUI is worse than Mike Vick? C'mon...That isn't being reasonable. It was a bad piece of judgment. Not a mental illness that Mike Vick suffers from.
I'll never agree with that.
oldcow1945 said:
We'll just have to agree to disagree.Never would I agree that blowing a .009 is anywhere near killing dogs or wife beating or any other major criminal activity.
Sure, if you go out and knock down 6 or 8 or 20 and get behind the wheel then you should get thrown in jail and have the key thrown away. But even at that, the person is not the kind of mentally ill person that Mike Vick is....And that is what concerns me. The Narcissitic pathology that can be spread through culture.
This issue simply can't be black in white. There has to be a certain amount of reason and common sense involved when we talk about this. Again, a person that almost never drinks, works hard, is a good person, etc, but then one day decides to have a cocktail or two after dinner and gets nabbed for a .009 DUI is worse than Mike Vick? C'mon...That isn't being reasonable. It was a bad piece of judgment. Not a mental illness that Mike Vick suffers from.
I'll never agree with that.
Sure..until that .009 runs over your kid... or maybe some people here would be more pissed off if they ran over your dog.
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oldcow1945 said:
We'll just have to agree to disagree.Never would I agree that blowing a .009 is anywhere near killing dogs or wife beating or any other major criminal activity.
Sure, if you go out and knock down 6 or 8 or 20 and get behind the wheel then you should get thrown in jail and have the key thrown away. But even at that, the person is not the kind of mentally ill person that Mike Vick is....And that is what concerns me. The Narcissitic pathology that can be spread through culture.
This issue simply can't be black in white. There has to be a certain amount of reason and common sense involved when we talk about this. Again, a person that almost never drinks, works hard, is a good person, etc, but then one day decides to have a cocktail or two after dinner and gets nabbed for a .009 DUI is worse than Mike Vick? C'mon...That isn't being reasonable. It was a bad piece of judgment. Not a mental illness that Mike Vick suffers from.
I'll never agree with that.
Sure..until that .009 runs over your kid... or maybe some people here would be more pissed off if they ran over your dog.
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ESPN just announced that the Falcons are trying to work out a trade for his rights.
Is anyone actually willing to trade for this guy?
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I get it, you're not a big dog lover and the Lord is your savior. Sounds great.
Vick is still a piece of shit.
Actually I am a HUGE dog lover. I have had several in my life and think fighting dogs is a sick thing. I just happen to think a little more of people than dogs. Vick is very misguided for sure. I still say a guy who smacks around women is worse than him. Fight dogs.. go to the federal pen, Beat up a woman.... spend a night in jail.maybe or .only if your unlucky....And Yes, first and foremost, the Lord is my savior.
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The man is obviously mentally unbalanced to have got embroiled in that dog nonsense. If being the highest paid NFL prospect and field general of a team is not enough for someone it shows a massive gap in their ability to live any kind of decent life. Whether or not a team picks him up is an uncontrollable outcome for us apart from the outcry I would expect from us and any decent Browns fan should we start looking at him, unlikely though that is. I'm all for giving people second chances but this guy needs to leave the game and just focus on becoming a decent human again. I wouldn't want the investment I make in my team every year being used to fund that idiot. It's not all about winning, it's about wining with some semblance of integrity.
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Comparing someone who fights dogs to someone who has been accused of hitting a female are two different things entirely and not really comaparable, there are way too many mitigating factors involved. Lots of guys have been accused unfairly or coerced into violence at one time or another but it doesn't make them inherently violent offenders their whole life. People who fight dogs are sick people that do all kinds of other stuff than just fight them. Watch some documentaries. They steal other people's pets, tape them up and allow their dogs to practice on them. The list goes on of sick shit these people do and I don't even like to discuss it. Comparing someone who has gotten popped for a DUI or other midemeanors to some of these sick fooks is laughable and ridiculous. It reeks of straight up self righteousness from having total christian ideals and refusing to look past the ambiguity.
This is not sticking up for hardcore spousal abusers or habitual offenders, just keeping it real.
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I hear Rae Carruth will be up for parole in 20 years. Let's plan on getting him too.
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@jadbf said:
ahh but then there you are making a comparable situation.I'll eplxain it this way and maybe you'll see the difference.
A few scenarios.
A) A guys has 3 martinis with Dinner and is pulled over driving home for a tail light being out and the cop smells liquor on his breath and tests him and the guy blows .009 and gets arrested for DUI.
B.) A guy takes his ONLY dog to the local dog fighting ring because he thinks his dog is tough and wants to win some quick cash. Unfortunately for him he picks the one night that the police end up raiding the place and gets arrested for Dog fighting.
C) Same guy has his 3 martinis, runs a stop sign and plows into a van killing someone in it.
D) A guy buys a house for the SOLE PURPOUSE of creating a dog figthing BUSINESS, The dogs are only there to be trained to fight, they are abused the whole time, and those that aren't considered "valuable" anymore are killed by this guys OWN HANDS.
HOW THE HELL can you not see the difference between Scenarios A and B and scenarios C and D.
If any NFL player is ever arrested for killing someone while driving drunk, I'm right there with you to have them banned for life too. But to compare a guy who gets pulled over with out hurting anyone to what Vick did is just he silliest thing I have ever read.
Thanks! This was a great post. I tried to explain this but you did a better job of it.
It's a matter of circumstance vs. an evil and sick lifestyle.
The guy that blew the .009 versus Mike Vick....Hmmmmm.....C'mon, There simply isn't any comparison. I know great people who have had a DUI in their life. It was mistake. Not a sick lifestyle.
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The Niners just announced they have absolutely no interest in Mike Vick. (Per ESPN)
Who will?
I have a feeling he'll never play football again.
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IF he is reinstated and the nightmare financial repercussions with Atlanta along with PR issues will probably make it dubious (not to mention physically) he actually plays in 2009.
That being said the NFL is about entertainment and men playing a GAME. The NFL does promote the appearance of giving back and some other positive aspects.... however the nuts and bolts are about ratings they resell in advertising and merchandising/tickets.
We will see how Goodell handles this quandry, personally I Think Vick could actually benefit future animal rights issues by staying in the public eye in a positive way. The more visibility he has the more he can help shed light on animal cruelty issues.
People make mistakes, some more horrendous than others. Its not my job to "judge" him one way or the other, I dont have to support him by buying merchandise or watching him if I dont choose to. Honestly I would not have a problem with the NFL giving him a chance to redeem himself and keep himself in the public eye. I think it would only benefit PETA and other organizations like that. He has and will continue to pay a price for his choices, if he can earn a living after paying his dues I dont have any issue with it.
possibly in 2010 he may find a home depending on how he handles himself in 2009 would be my guess.
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@jadbf said:
ahh but then there you are making a comparable situation.I'll eplxain it this way and maybe you'll see the difference.
A few scenarios.
A) A guys has 3 martinis with Dinner and is pulled over driving home for a tail light being out and the cop smells liquor on his breath and tests him and the guy blows .009 and gets arrested for DUI.
B.) A guy takes his ONLY dog to the local dog fighting ring because he thinks his dog is tough and wants to win some quick cash. Unfortunately for him he picks the one night that the police end up raiding the place and gets arrested for Dog fighting.
C) Same guy has his 3 martinis, runs a stop sign and plows into a van killing someone in it.
D) A guy buys a house for the SOLE PURPOUSE of creating a dog figthing BUSINESS, The dogs are only there to be trained to fight, they are abused the whole time, and those that aren't considered "valuable" anymore are killed by this guys OWN HANDS.
HOW THE HELL can you not see the difference between Scenarios A and B and scenarios C and D.
If any NFL player is ever arrested for killing someone while driving drunk, I'm right there with you to have them banned for life too. But to compare a guy who gets pulled over with out hurting anyone to what Vick did is just he silliest thing I have ever read.
The thing is your 3 martinin guy "probably" does that frequently. it could be every day, or 2-3 times a week, maybe only every weekend, or even once a month. But it is not just a ONE time event that he's out there on the road with a buzz on. Maybe only got caught after running over a kid.. or plowing into a van killing someone as in your scenario. So in realilty he is a (uncaught) repeat offender and knowingly drinks and drives all the time. ..so there are more considerations here than an simple ABC comparison. VERY VERY rarely does someone who only drinks one time a year...get behind the wheel. it's usually the people who are used to drinking and driving regularly.... that is exactly why it is so dangerous. it is minimized in their mind..they think they can "handle it"... I know.. I used to drink plenty and I was out there on the road. I for damned sure knew i was not supposed to be on the road. It was a concious decision. Even if I only had 2-3 beers or if I had 10.. I know that any amount of drinking can affect judgement when driving. I know tons of people who did the same thing.. If you drink yourself, or hang out with people who drink then you know I am not off base with this. i really can't speak for what it's like now because I don't go to bars and don't have more than 2 beers at a time... and it's always at home.. But i doubt much has changed with all the dui's on our roadways. I know plenty of people personally who have recieved a dui..Not one of them said..wow and it was the first time i ever did that (just first time caught).
Sorry: i realize this post is being distorted from being about Vick playing football. I still say someone will trade for his rights... when he is given the OK by Goodell. He will be playing QB again and likely for many years to come.
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@jadbf said:
ahh but then there you are making a comparable situation.I'll eplxain it this way and maybe you'll see the difference.
A few scenarios.
A) A guys has 3 martinis with Dinner and is pulled over driving home for a tail light being out and the cop smells liquor on his breath and tests him and the guy blows .009 and gets arrested for DUI.
B.) A guy takes his ONLY dog to the local dog fighting ring because he thinks his dog is tough and wants to win some quick cash. Unfortunately for him he picks the one night that the police end up raiding the place and gets arrested for Dog fighting.
C) Same guy has his 3 martinis, runs a stop sign and plows into a van killing someone in it.
D) A guy buys a house for the SOLE PURPOUSE of creating a dog figthing BUSINESS, The dogs are only there to be trained to fight, they are abused the whole time, and those that aren't considered "valuable" anymore are killed by this guys OWN HANDS.
HOW THE HELL can you not see the difference between Scenarios A and B and scenarios C and D.
If any NFL player is ever arrested for killing someone while driving drunk, I'm right there with you to have them banned for life too. But to compare a guy who gets pulled over with out hurting anyone to what Vick did is just he silliest thing I have ever read.
The thing is your 3 martinin guy "probably" does that frequently. it could be every day, or 2-3 times a week, maybe only every weekend, or even once a month. But it is not just a ONE time event that he's out there on the road with a buzz on. Maybe only got caught after running over a kid.. or plowing into a van killing someone as in your scenario. So in realilty he is a (uncaught) repeat offender and knowingly drinks and drives all the time. ..so there are more considerations here than an simple ABC comparison. VERY VERY rarely does someone who only drinks one time a year...get behind the wheel. it's usually the people who are used to drinking and driving regularly.... that is exactly why it is so dangerous. it is minimized in their mind..they think they can "handle it"... I know.. I used to drink plenty and I was out there on the road. I for damned sure knew i was not supposed to be on the road. It was a concious decision. Even if I only had 2-3 beers or if I had 10.. I know that any amount of drinking can affect judgement when driving. I know tons of people who did the same thing.. If you drink yourself, or hang out with people who drink then you know I am not off base with this. i really can't speak for what it's like now because I don't go to bars and don't have more than 2 beers at a time... and it's always at home.. But i doubt much has changed with all the dui's on our roadways. I know plenty of people personally who have recieved a dui..Not one of them said..wow and it was the first time i ever did that (just first time caught).
Sorry: i realize this post is being distorted from being about Vick playing football. I still say someone will trade for his rights... when he is given the OK by Goodell. He will be playing QB again and likely for many years to come.
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I disagree....
I have had 2 dogs in my lifetime, I was a zoology major my first year of college, I love animals.
Michael Vick should play again. How is forcing dogs to fight each other, and killing your own dogs any different than game hunting. The next person that shoots a Moose or a deer should go to jail in that case. The next person that shoots a duck or chicken, or kills a cow should go to jail.
If humans did not exist, or if we were more primative, the dogs in the world would most assuredly fight eachother, for food, territory, etc. Its nature, deal with it
This is rediculous, why do Dogs get special treatment when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, is it because there mans best friend? If you can kill a deer, you should be able to kill a dog. Or, if you cant kill a dog, you shouldn't be able to kill a dear. The same rules should apply across the board for everyone. Do you people know that the APL puts hundreds of Dogs down a day?
Vick made a moral mistake in my mind, I hate people who abuse animals, I love animals, but I beleive that since it happens to every other animal in existance, his mistake isnt as bad as everyone is making it out to be.
He is an amazing athlegte, let him play, bring him to the browns, and make him speak out against animal cruelty
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I disagree....
I have had 2 dogs in my lifetime, I was a zoology major my first year of college, I love animals.
Michael Vick should play again. How is forcing dogs to fight each other, and killing your own dogs any different than game hunting. The next person that shoots a Moose or a deer should go to jail in that case. The next person that shoots a duck or chicken, or kills a cow should go to jail.
If humans did not exist, or if we were more primative, the dogs in the world would most assuredly fight eachother, for food, territory, etc. Its nature, deal with it
This is rediculous, why do Dogs get special treatment when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, is it because there mans best friend? If you can kill a deer, you should be able to kill a dog. Or, if you cant kill a dog, you shouldn't be able to kill a dear. The same rules should apply across the board for everyone. Do you people know that the APL puts hundreds of Dogs down a day?
Vick made a moral mistake in my mind, I hate people who abuse animals, I love animals, but I beleive that since it happens to every other animal in existance, his mistake isnt as bad as everyone is making it out to be.
He is an amazing athlegte, let him play, bring him to the browns, and make him speak out against animal cruelty
I disagree....
I have had 2 dogs in my lifetime, I was a zoology major my first year of college, I love animals.
Michael Vick should play again. How is forcing dogs to fight each other, and killing your own dogs any different than game hunting. The next person that shoots a Moose or a deer should go to jail in that case. The next person that shoots a duck or chicken, or kills a cow should go to jail.
If humans did not exist, or if we were more primative, the dogs in the world would most assuredly fight eachother, for food, territory, etc. Its nature, deal with it
This is rediculous, why do Dogs get special treatment when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, is it because there mans best friend? If you can kill a deer, you should be able to kill a dog. Or, if you cant kill a dog, you shouldn't be able to kill a dear. The same rules should apply across the board for everyone. Do you people know that the APL puts hundreds of Dogs down a day?
Vick made a moral mistake in my mind, I hate people who abuse animals, I love animals, but I beleive that since it happens to every other animal in existance, his mistake isnt as bad as everyone is making it out to be.
He is an amazing athlegte, let him play, bring him to the browns, and make him speak out against animal cruelty
People that "game" hunt are no better than those that participate in dog fights.
It's ok to shoot a deer, moose, antelope, squirrel, whatever, so long as you intend to use the hide or eat it.
If you're killing an animal for your amusement or just for a trophy on the wall you're out of line.
People like Leonard Little who are REPEATED DUI offenders that killed people deserve no mercy in the justice system.
People like Vick who bred and trained animals with the sole intent of killing them for ENJOYMENT and ENTERTAINMENT are sick bastards and have no place in society.
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Here is my take:
Vick did a crime and was punished accordingly.
Vick is going to be let out.
Vick has the 'right' to work again, despite his felony conviction.
Vick has the 'right' to attempt to work in the NFL again.
NOBODY IS OBLIGATED TO GIVE VICK THAT CHANCE!
The right to work afforded to people convicted of felonies does not extend to a particular job. In fact if you were a convicted felon there are a TON of jobs that you are no longer qualified to do.
If some team decides that he is rehabilitated and wants to take a chance on Vick...that is their prerogative...although I will PERSONALLY have nothing to do with that team going forward...and YES, that includes the Browns. I cannot put a 'favorite team' over my personal beliefs and values.
So, in a nutshell...Vick has the right to work again...but not necessarily as a football player..and there are a ton of people who will find it offensive to have him paraded in front of millions on TV.
As for your examples of wife beating and DUI, etc...
DUI - first time can be an oops, but if he causes and accident it should be considered more thoroughly. Subsequent DUI's should result in automatic suspension of 1yr and life for 3rd time offenders.
Domestic Abuse - this needs to be addressed immediately. They need to be suspended upon proof of it occurring...and I am not sure a second chance is ever warranted.
The comparison of hunting and dog fighting is goofy to me. In hunting the object is to kill the animal as quickly/cleanly as possible. There is obviously pain involved, but that is NOT the goal.
In dog fighting, the object is to watch 2 animals rip eachother to shreds for your own entertainment. The OBJECT is to have a fight last as long as possible (many times they dogs are both maimed to the point they are put down). These dogs are mistreated from day 1 to make them mean. They are injected with drugs to make them mean and strong. They are bread for size and temper...and if they fail these they are summarily killed.
I just don't get the comparison. (by the way, I am NOT a hunter...and don't like the idea of trophy hunting)
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"Game" hunting (often called trophy hunting) where a part of the animal is taken as a trophy (usually the head or feet) is just wrong.
It's nothing more than killing for enjoyment/ and/ or entertainment.
"Hunting" is a natural part of life, where people harvest animals to sustain themselves or their families.
Game hunting should be a criminal act.
Sometimes a populous of deer exceed the number an area can support, then kill permits are issued.
When deer are taken down with kill permits it thins the herd and makes the numbers stronger since the are isn't capable of sustaining such large numbers of the animal, so as a result most of those animals would have dies from malnourishment or disease because of a weakened immune system which stems from malnourishment.
The meat gained from kill permits (if free from disease and in a usable state) is often donated to needy families or an outreach program (like the Salvation army) so kill permit deer are in fact providing sustenance to those that need it and by thinning the number of animals strengthening those that are left, which makes kill permits a good thing.
Most people that hunt kill permits are NOT doing it for the "sport" but doing it for the two reasons mentioned above. Since the hunting is done with the INTENT of providing then it is acceptable.
I guess what I've been trying to get at is the INTENT between hunting and what Vick did.
Most hunt with the intent of providing, which is honorable.
When you kill animals with the intent of amusement/ entertainment/ enjoyment then you're crossing the line where the killing is brining you joy and you're a sick individual that doesn't have a place in modern society.
Vick's intent was not one to kill to provide, it was killing for his own pleasure, which disgusts me.
If I ran a team I would not ever offer the man a job again even if he was the last qb on earth.
Now that's not going to stop another team from offering him a spot, I understand that.
Long gone is the day of personal liability. I'm sure this is going to get spun as Vick being a victim of his environment and wealth, it was after all, society's fault for giving him more money then what he knew what to do with so he invested in something he grew up around EVEN THOUGH HE KNEW it was illegal. Vick is going to blame his upbringing on what he did, cry about how tough a life he had, and is going to expect everyone to take alligator tears as real and accept him back into society.
And what's even worse is that there are those that will.
THAT is what makes me sick.
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Here is my take:
Vick did a crime and was punished accordingly.
Vick is going to be let out.
Vick has the 'right' to work again, despite his felony conviction.
Vick has the 'right' to attempt to work in the NFL again.
NOBODY IS OBLIGATED TO GIVE VICK THAT CHANCE!
The right to work afforded to people convicted of felonies does not extend to a particular job. In fact if you were a convicted felon there are a TON of jobs that you are no longer qualified to do.
If some team decides that he is rehabilitated and wants to take a chance on Vick...that is their prerogative...although I will PERSONALLY have nothing to do with that team going forward...and YES, that includes the Browns. I cannot put a 'favorite team' over my personal beliefs and values.
So, in a nutshell...Vick has the right to work again...but not necessarily as a football player..and there are a ton of people who will find it offensive to have him paraded in front of millions on TV.
As for your examples of wife beating and DUI, etc...
DUI - first time can be an oops, but if he causes and accident it should be considered more thoroughly. Subsequent DUI's should result in automatic suspension of 1yr and life for 3rd time offenders.
Domestic Abuse - this needs to be addressed immediately. They need to be suspended upon proof of it occurring...and I am not sure a second chance is ever warranted.
The comparison of hunting and dog fighting is goofy to me. In hunting the object is to kill the animal as quickly/cleanly as possible. There is obviously pain involved, but that is NOT the goal.
In dog fighting, the object is to watch 2 animals rip eachother to shreds for your own entertainment. The OBJECT is to have a fight last as long as possible (many times they dogs are both maimed to the point they are put down). These dogs are mistreated from day 1 to make them mean. They are injected with drugs to make them mean and strong. They are bread for size and temper...and if they fail these they are summarily killed.
I just don't get the comparison. (by the way, I am NOT a hunter...and don't like the idea of trophy hunting)
(by the way, I am NOT a hunter...and don't like the idea of trophy hunting)
From a non hunter point of veiw,Please explain what is wrong with "trophy hunting"..... This really baffles me and im currious.
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