Hoyer's best game.... And no TDs thrown
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Calfox,
Doe he?
This isn't college ball with lackluster talent on opposing defenses to play chicken with. His pocket ability is what will make him an effective NFL quarterback.
The NFL is a different league, even after the Favre, Young years. Defenses are much faster. If QBs do not have two step pocket presence like Brady or Big Ben to allow the play to develop, scrambling QBs kill their team, their coaches and themselves.
I'm betting Farmer is simply looking for a number, and will sign Hoyer.
If not, expect the Bills to be all over Brian Hoyer..*********************************************************************
I honestly didn't think so, which made it fun to argue with Canton Mike about it on the phone ! But, after watching
him play a few plays.... he does see the field, under duress and on the move, even. And, he is extremely mobile,
and elusive. And, he's tough and has no fear, and he's intense about football, and winning.
Those are his raw skills. He has serious growing up to do, into the role as a leader on the team. But he
also has time to learn the NFL, and leadership, and to mature.... and he has an excellent role model in
Hoyer. The one qb I wanted over Manziel in the draft, was drafted by the Patriots. We'll see about Manziel.
But the kid is also very, very smart. Who knows if he'll develop into the qb we want him to be? Nobody, I reckon.
I just believe I was wrong about Manziel, after all is said and done in the draft. But it really was fun aggravating
Canton Mike with arguing that JM's skills and maturity made for a bad draft pick..... lol
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The Browns won't undercut Hoyer, this team means too much to him, and he
means too much to the team. Pay the man, but Hoyer isn't the kind of knuckehead
to hurt his team with a gigantic contract - that would just make him a cap casualty
one day, maybe.
He loves being qb of the Browns, his team, and Farmer is a brilliant GM. No problem.
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Hoyer will take the best contract he's offered, and rightfully so.
I'm sure the kid would love nothing more than to be the franchise quarterback for his hometown team, but if Cleveland low balls him so they can `see what Johnny has` and someone else offers him compensation for what he's been doing on the field, you lose Hoyer.
I'm not a college football person, but I used to watch Johnny games just because he was entertaining as hell, but IMO anyone who thinks that will translate to pro ball is crazy.
Time and time again I saw Johnny running around the back field for thirty seconds, avoiding pass rushers with his ninja skills, and then hitting a WR returning to the LOS with a ball thrown way too high the receiver had to jump for.
Two things:
1. That will get WR's killed in the NFL.
2. His ninjitsu won't work in the NFL. Pro defenders WILL catch him and probably crush him awkwardly.
Johnny Football as a starter anywhere will be a bust. A flash in the pan gimmick with no long term success.
Does anyone really think Johnny's schtick would work against a top caliber defense like 2013 Seattle or a 2014 Belichick scheme?
Yeah, he could look okay maybe against Jag, bottom feeder defenses (perhaps) but his routine has a low ceiling when you get into play off tier defenses.
Many of us see JM in a Russell Wilson role. The rollouts, sprint out passing and the designed looks to utilize his feet. However Wilson does have a bit more patience in the pocket and better internal clock.
Its very possible he could end up succeeding at those levels in which case, as much as I do love Hoyer - the offense would be more dangerous for it.
As for working against top tier defenses. Its clear very little worked against the 13' Hawks and the jury is still out on the 14' Pats. They have moments of greatness combined with great mental lapses.
Don't be so quick to put them up there with an all time defense like Seattle's unit was last season.
Many of us see JM in a Russell Wilson role. The rollouts, sprint out passing and the designed looks to utilize his feet. However Wilson does have a bit more patience in the pocket and better internal clock.
"A bit more"? Not to mention Russell's superior sense of self preservation.
George C said:
Something will have to give. Both can not and will not coexist. Two totally different games and two potentially different offenses for each player, so a choice will have to be made.
I don't see Manziel surviving a half of a season in the NFL without major injury. He will be carted off the field in butcher paper. Then what?
Johnny has to harness his competitive nature... channel it and reduce his exposure to harm. Many of us have been saying that since before the draft. It's your one valid point.
As for the rest... totally different offenses? How so? You need to make your case. Adding a read option package does not a totally different offense make.
if shanahan gets a HC gig and goes to a withering team in need of a QB expect him to try and take hoyer with him, if available.
Just like he did Cousins?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Calfox,
Doe he?
This isn't college ball with lackluster talent on opposing defenses to play chicken with. His pocket ability is what will make him an effective NFL quarterback.
The NFL is a different league, even after the Favre, Young years. Defenses are much faster. If QBs do not have two step pocket presence like Brady or Big Ben to allow the play to develop, scrambling QBs kill their team, their coaches and themselves.
I'm betting Farmer is simply looking for a number, and will sign Hoyer.
If not, expect the Bills to be all over Brian Hoyer..*********************************************************************
I honestly didn't think so, which made it fun to argue with Canton Mike about it on the phone ! But, after watching
him play a few plays.... he does see the field, under duress and on the move, even. And, he is extremely mobile,
and elusive. And, he's tough and has no fear, and he's intense about football, and winning.
Those are his raw skills. He has serious growing up to do, into the role as a leader on the team. But he
also has time to learn the NFL, and leadership, and to mature.... and he has an excellent role model in
Hoyer. The one qb I wanted over Manziel in the draft, was drafted by the Patriots. We'll see about Manziel.
But the kid is also very, very smart. Who knows if he'll develop into the qb we want him to be? Nobody, I reckon.
I just believe I was wrong about Manziel, after all is said and done in the draft. But it really was fun aggravating
Canton Mike with arguing that JM's skills and maturity made for a bad draft pick..... lol
him play a few plays.... he does see the field, under duress and on the move, even. And, he is extremely mobile,and elusive. And, he's tough and has no fear, and he's intense about football, and winning.
Seeing the field is unfortunately not the same thing as reading a defense, but it is a necessary step towards learning how to read.
No fear plus intensity, AKA competitiveness, is the deadly recipe and most of the reason JM concerns me.
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I'll trust Farmer to do the right thing with Hoyer & I do NOT believe it will be "franchise money". He still has less than a year experience as a starter & has been good but not great. I am fine with Hoyer, but I am not yet ready to ordain him (after 12 NFL starts) OR Johnny (with none) as "the second coming" nor write either of them off. I chose to allow the experts to make the decision, & I will continue to support their decisions. They're doing fine thus far & I refuse to speculate on who will be injured & when. Keep in mind that our injured reserve doesn't have a single player under 222 lbs on it, so is size REALLY the determining factor as to a player's durability? It's a "crap shoot" & I'm not gonna speculate to that degree.
Mike
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Posted Today, 12:27 PM
I'll trust Farmer to do the right thing with Hoyer & I do NOT believe it will be "franchise money". He still has less than a year experience as a starter & has been good but not great. I am fine with Hoyer, but I am not yet ready to ordain him (after 12 NFL starts) OR Johnny (with none) as "the second coming" nor write either of them off. I chose to allow the experts to make the decision, & I will continue to support their decisions. They're doing fine thus far & I refuse to speculate on who will be injured & when. Keep in mind that our injured reserve doesn't have a single player under 222 lbs on it, so is size REALLY the determining factor as to a player's durability? It's a "crap shoot" & I'm not gonna speculate to that degree.
Mike
***********************************************
I DISAGREE DAMMIT !!!!!
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Posted Today, 12:27 PM
I'll trust Farmer to do the right thing with Hoyer & I do NOT believe it will be "franchise money". He still has less than a year experience as a starter & has been good but not great. I am fine with Hoyer, but I am not yet ready to ordain him (after 12 NFL starts) OR Johnny (with none) as "the second coming" nor write either of them off. I chose to allow the experts to make the decision, & I will continue to support their decisions. They're doing fine thus far & I refuse to speculate on who will be injured & when. Keep in mind that our injured reserve doesn't have a single player under 222 lbs on it, so is size REALLY the determining factor as to a player's durability? It's a "crap shoot" & I'm not gonna speculate to that degree.
Mike
***********************************************
I DISAGREE DAMMIT !!!!!
Posted Today, 12:27 PM
I'll trust Farmer to do the right thing with Hoyer & I do NOT believe it will be "franchise money". He still has less than a year experience as a starter & has been good but not great. I am fine with Hoyer, but I am not yet ready to ordain him (after 12 NFL starts) OR Johnny (with none) as "the second coming" nor write either of them off. I chose to allow the experts to make the decision, & I will continue to support their decisions. They're doing fine thus far & I refuse to speculate on who will be injured & when. Keep in mind that our injured reserve doesn't have a single player under 222 lbs on it, so is size REALLY the determining factor as to a player's durability? It's a "crap shoot" & I'm not gonna speculate to that degree.
Mike
***********************************************
I DISAGREE DAMMIT !!!!!
You're just a cranky old fart, aren't ya?
Mike
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Many of us see JM in a Russell Wilson role. The rollouts, sprint out passing and the designed looks to utilize his feet. However Wilson does have a bit more patience in the pocket and better internal clock.
"A bit more"? Not to mention Russell's superior sense of self preservation.
George C said:
Something will have to give. Both can not and will not coexist. Two totally different games and two potentially different offenses for each player, so a choice will have to be made.
I don't see Manziel surviving a half of a season in the NFL without major injury. He will be carted off the field in butcher paper. Then what?
Johnny has to harness his competitive nature... channel it and reduce his exposure to harm. Many of us have been saying that since before the draft. It's your one valid point.
As for the rest... totally different offenses? How so? You need to make your case. Adding a read option package does not a totally different offense make.
if shanahan gets a HC gig and goes to a withering team in need of a QB expect him to try and take hoyer with him, if available.
Just like he did Cousins?
"A bit more"? Not to mention Russell's superior sense of self preservation. Johnny has to harness his competitive nature... channel it and reduce his exposure to harm. Many of us have been saying that since before the draft. It's your one valid point.As for the rest... totally different offenses? How so? You need to make your case. Adding a read option package does not a totally different offense make. Just like he did Cousins?
Cousins had alot more good games than bad to his credit.
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I think the hometown discount comes in the following form: "Brian, where in this league is there a better fit for you?"
George C said:
First, I admit that I have been on this forum for a few weeks having some fun with my brownie counterparts.
Let's get real.
If you guys even think about letting Brian Hoyer walk, it'll be the next biggest mistake since bill bellicheat.
This guy can play the middle of the field with the best of them, and he's only going to get better.
Maziel, for all of this scrambling BS will not be as consistent as Hoyer. Don't do it Cleveland.
Keep johnny on the bench. It will be the best thing for him also.
I do think you ran into a team that was masquerading, and you guys ripped that mask off and stomped on it...
Great job.
I agree, but Hoyer and his agent have to be realistic. I hope they realize it was flat out stupid of the Bengals to ink an Andy Dalton contract. Caution is also advised in the light of the Cardinals giving Palmer a $50 million extension, and then the guy promptly blows out his knee. I doubt the Rams are happy about paying millions for Sam Bradford's rehab.
I think the hometown discount comes in the following form: "Brian, where in this league is there a better fit for you?"
Nowhere, Tour. To early to say the P word, but if Hoyer takes us there, the asking price is going to be mighty steep, I'm afraid.
George C said:
Calfox,
Doe he?
This isn't college ball with lackluster talent on opposing defenses to play chicken with. His pocket ability is what will make him an effective NFL quarterback.
The NFL is a different league, even after the Favre, Young years. Defenses are much faster. If QBs do not have two step pocket presence like Brady or Big Ben to allow the play to develop, scrambling QBs kill their team, their coaches and themselves.
I'm betting Farmer is simply looking for a number, and will sign Hoyer.
If not, expect the Bills to be all over Brian Hoyer..
The Bills, and about 6 other teams. If he keeps on winning, Hoyer will be the hottest FA on the market 2015. If the Browns don't pay him, some other team certainly will. Farmer is smart enough to realize this. Or Framer will prove to be the biggest GM genius in history, letting Hoyer walk- just like the 49ers did with Joe Montana, because they trusted Steve Young was going to get the job done.
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George C said:
If Hoyer keeps playing at his current level, Farmer won't have options. Hoyer will command a contract starting around 10-12 million. Maybe much more. Hoyer will be smart enough to test the waters, and they will be friendly.
Cleveland, should consider this an awesome problem to have.
Nobody knows the pain of not having a decent QB like us here in Buffalo. We have everything we need to win this division, except a prior GM who wildly misfired on EJ Manuel. Hoyer will get a huge look here if you play chicken with him. Our new owner is the fourth richest man in the league, getting richer every day from gas and oil field production, and has no problem spending hundreds of millions on stuff he considers good for our community. I'm not sure why he decided to pick Buffalo, but he has....
BTW, I did have a huge chuckle when this board was coming down on Mike Pettine early in the season.
This guy is a total stud, and here in Buffalo, we wanted this guy as our head coach by mid season. This guy has a quiet toughness and leadership about him that attracts and commands respect by his players.
And, he's pretty damn smart..
Every fanbase has some crazy (and stupid) fans, sometimes exemplified in cleveland given our recent history. We haven't had a winning quarterback in 20+ years and some people think letting Hoyer walk is fine. Hoyer will stay, to a team-friendly deal that can earn him lots of money I suspect.
The things Hoyer has done without any major WR threats and a struggling o-line for the last 4 has been nothing short of impressive.
The biggest Pettine criticism was about our horrid run D, but that was exemplified by a slew of D-line injuries. D-line is getting healthy again, LB group is starting to gel - looks like a different defense than what we saw week 1.
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i liked the farmer pettine hire, considering their resumes. both come from playing football. one was a great scout and one was a great defensive coach. like edward said above the only gripe i had to this point was with the defense. we were ranked pretty high last year and to switch schemes again with players playing out of their natural positions have/had people scratching their heads. with phil taylor back vs. cinci and the team gelling at the right time they finally looked like they should have out of the gate.
although i've loved everything this FO has done to this point, the fact that farmer will just let the hoyer contract go to the end of the season has me baffled. either hoyer plays us into the playoffs and his price skyrockets or we finish 4-5 games better than we have in 7 years........does that matter? we haven't seen a decent starting QB around here that's put up these #'s since kosar. that's a loooooooooong time.
why fuck around? you want to see what manziel has? really? if that's the reasoning behind all of this then that's strike one against farmer IMO.
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I read Hoyer and his agent were holding out till the end of the season, thinking they could get a better deal, but I saw that on Bleacher Report so I'm not sure how truthful it was
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I read Hoyer and his agent were holding out till the end of the season, thinking they could get a better deal, but I saw that on Bleacher Report so I'm not sure how truthful it was
I read Hoyer and his agent were holding out till the end of the season, thinking they could get a better deal, but I saw that on Bleacher Report so I'm not sure how truthful it was
Yep. Ive heard the same. In fact, the Browns did offer a contract this spring and Hoyer turned it down. Said he wanted to wait till the season was over.
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i liked the farmer pettine hire, considering their resumes. both come from playing football. one was a great scout and one was a great defensive coach. like edward said above the only gripe i had to this point was with the defense. we were ranked pretty high last year and to switch schemes again with players playing out of their natural positions have/had people scratching their heads. with phil taylor back vs. cinci and the team gelling at the right time they finally looked like they should have out of the gate.
although i've loved everything this FO has done to this point, the fact that farmer will just let the hoyer contract go to the end of the season has me baffled. either hoyer plays us into the playoffs and his price skyrockets or we finish 4-5 games better than we have in 7 years........does that matter? we haven't seen a decent starting QB around here that's put up these #'s since kosar. that's a loooooooooong time.
why fuck around? you want to see what manziel has? really? if that's the reasoning behind all of this then that's strike one against farmer IMO.
with phil taylor back vs. cinci and the (defense) gelling at the right time they finally looked like they should have out of the gate.
Don't see how you can say "should have" since as you point out it was a new scheme. I think in retrospect our expectations were unrealistic given the change.
either hoyer plays us into the playoffs and his price skyrockets or we finish 4-5 games better than we have in 7 years........does that matter?
Price-wise it may matter, but not nearly as much as it has to this point. Assuming Hoyer's camp wants a deal ASAP (not much evidence of that though), the longer the deal takes the more the FO gets to see the goods.
why fuck around? you want to see what manziel has? really? if that's the reasoning behind all of this then that's strike one against farmer IMO.
Again, no evidence that Manziel is the one being evaluated... so I think Farmer is still strikeless.
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the elephant that brought the 3 ring circus to town?
i heard they're teaching it how to paint.
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the elephant that brought the 3 ring circus to town?
i heard they're teaching it how to paint.
i heard they're teaching it how to paint.
... by numbers...
George C said:
After signing an extension, and after opposing defenses had another shot at his game, shutting him down became the norm, and he became a huge disappointment.
His name was Ryan Fitzpatrick.
How you guys deal with that elephant in the room is an even bigger challenge than making a deal with Hoyer.
Hoyer is NOT going to want to see Manziel in the room next year, no matter how well he paints a group hug picture.
Plus Ryan was holding back E.J.
As for challenges... they are completely different.
Manziel is Pettine's... And as mik has intimated, he's handled that quite well... breaking the young colt while steadying the exercise pony turned thoroughbred.
Hoyer is Farmer's Challenge.
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George C said:
How you guys deal with that elephant in the room is an even bigger challenge than making a deal with Hoyer.
Hoyer is NOT going to want to see Manziel in the room next year, no matter how well he paints a group hug picture.
Bullsh**. If Hoyer is given the money he probably deserves AND is entrenched as the starting QB, he won't give a damn if Manziel continues to develop behind him. We have all the leverage with Manziel... he's on his rookie deal, not making much money. We don't have to do anything with him until the time comes where he either HAS to play b/c of injury, or we try to showcase him at the end of his contract to try and get something back in trade. There is no "Manziel Elephant" in my opinion... This offseason is all about paying Brian Hoyer whatever it takes to keep him on the Browns, while hoping to avoid an uber-inflated deal, but if we have to pay it... then so be-it...
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George C said:
Devil's advocate.
Another reason Farmer is waiting could be from a lesson learned from us here in Buffalo..
We gave a journeyman a shot, and he did very, very well. His play elevated the rest of the team, we won some games from QB play we haven't seen around these parts since the 90's, and everyone thought it would be a great idea to lock him up.
After signing an extension, and after opposing defenses had another shot at his game, shutting him down became the norm, and he became a huge disappointment.
His name was Ryan Fitzpatrick.
I'm guessing Farmer/Pettine just want to see more. Cleveland wants him, Hoyer obviously would prefer to stay in Cleveland.
The problem with all of this is some homeless dude talking to your owner, and your owner actually listening and quoting the bum.
Im sure he pushed Manziel on Farmer, and you drafted a guy who expects to start.
How you guys deal with that elephant in the room is an even bigger challenge than making a deal with Hoyer.
Hoyer is NOT going to want to see Manziel in the room next year, no matter how well he paints a group hug picture.
Sorry, Hoyer != Fitzpatrick
2009: Fitzpatrick with bills, Record: 4-4, 69 passer rating, more interceptions than touch downs
2010: Fitzpatrick with bills, Record: 4-9, 81 rating (best season?)
2011: Fitzpatrick with bills, Record: 6-10, 79 rating (23 interceptions)
He had some flashes and big games, but totally didn't prove those seasons he was a long term starter.
Hoyer, on the other hand:
Record: 9-3, rating of 86.5 (90 so far in 2014), 15 TD, 7 INT
Manziel isn't and hasn't been a problem. He isn't expressing frustration as a backup, he's studying the playbook, he's keeping his head down, he works hard in practice, the coaches and players like him - etc, etc. Hoyer hasn't indicated that he has a problem with Manziel, either. Why does everybody keep making this stuff up?
If it becomes a problem we can send him to Jerry for more than he's worth.
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