Hoyer's contract
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Fact is Hoyer has had 10 games to this point to prove hes THE GUY and to prove he's worth a big contract.
He's failed to prove that. You want to argue that he hasn't been bad, go ahead, but you can't argue he's been great and only great was going to save his job.
Hoyer has left doubt too much doubt.That's what everyone is leaving out when arguing about Hoyers play. You tell me "Oh well the defense is the bigger problem" and "Oh well our run game isn't going right now" thats fine. But Hoyer, in his job, hasn't been good enough to make people say "Thats the guy" Not even close. He has had his shot and he hasn't taken advantage of it. He hasn't shown to be good enough. While you're arguing individual games or plays, you're all missing the big picture which is Hoyer isn't the long term answer.
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Fact is Hoyer has had 10 games to this point to prove hes THE GUY and to prove he's worth a big contract.
He's failed to prove that. You want to argue that he hasn't been bad, go ahead, but you can't argue he's been great and only great was going to save his job.
Hoyer has left doubt too much doubt.That's what everyone is leaving out when arguing about Hoyers play. You tell me "Oh well the defense is the bigger problem" and "Oh well our run game isn't going right now" thats fine. But Hoyer, in his job, hasn't been good enough to make people say "Thats the guy" Not even close. He has had his shot and he hasn't taken advantage of it. He hasn't shown to be good enough. While you're arguing individual games or plays, you're all missing the big picture which is Hoyer isn't the long term answer.
You're right he hasn't proved he's worth a big contract to this point. We have an odd scenario really with Hoyer, but I think we really need to see more - I know you have a different opinion and wanna bench him now (trust me, EVERYBODY knows your opinion on the topic)Fact is Hoyer has had 10 games to this point to prove hes THE GUY and to prove he's worth a big contract.
He's failed to prove that. You want to argue that he hasn't been bad, go ahead, but you can't argue he's been great and only great was going to save his job.
Hoyer has left doubt too much doubt.
That's what everyone is leaving out when arguing about Hoyers play. You tell me "Oh well the defense is the bigger problem" and "Oh well our run game isn't going right now" thats fine. But Hoyer, in his job, hasn't been good enough to make people say "Thats the guy" Not even close. He has had his shot and he hasn't taken advantage of it. He hasn't shown to be good enough. While you're arguing individual games or plays, you're all missing the big picture which is Hoyer isn't the long term answer.
The guy will probably be the guy for the last 6 games, barring injury, regardless. Since that's the case I'm rooting for him to succeed - and for the most part, he has - with very little.
I don't think Hoyer will cost us big, but he probably will look elsewhere if he can't get assurance he'll start in 2015.
Let's see what kind of groove the offense can get in Sunday.
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It's completely pointless to debate about who's 20th or 22nd best, isnt it?.......This is basically the same team with Orton or Hoyer or any of those other guys, because none of them are Manning, Brady, Brees or Luck.
The way I see it is there are really only about 10 no brainer QB's in the whole league.....then there's everybody else. A long line of 20-30 QB's that are basically unproven or haven't found the right situation....some have flashed and some haven't...some find the right system or team and some dont......
right now, Hoyers one who has landed in the right situation and it's worked out well for him and the Browns.....No more, no less.
So, Orton is 26th and Hoyer is 22nd....or Visa versa......Who cares??
Only a hand full of teams are lucky enough to get the opportunity to pick a Luck, Elway or Manning....Happens only once every 10 years or so....and some even get lucky with a Brady, Montana or Romo type .....The rest(re:most) have to find a way to win without a premier QB who can carry the whole ship....with these teams, it's more about the team, than the QB. Thats where were at.
The hypothetical question about "who" would I release right now?(BH or JFF) is hard to answer, because I haven't seen #2 play yet. The Browns see him everyday though.....we have no idea what they think, but they have an idea for sure...... and they keep saying he is the future(smokescreen? dunno).....and they dont say that about BH....Ever......so, if I HAD to pick one.....Id probably swing blindly for the fences and keep JFF......just praying he's one of those top 10 QB's....otherwise, if he's just another one of the 20 average players, it wont really matter much
With that, I am assuming jff looks good in practice.....and is still progressing nicely.....and is still the ultimate final plan for the team. And that is the reason Farmer and Pettine are so reluctant to publicly declare Hoyer the man, while they are happy to say the love JFF, dont regret the pick, etc.
I know stockton wants him now. Others not yet. I dont think the coaches should mess with team chemistry and such, but there will be an opportunity somewhere and they will seize it. Im certain(100%) we will see him eventually. Personally, I feel it was the right time yesterday, right after that second hit BH took from Cushing. Wasn;t happy(at all) to see BH taking lumps like that, but did feel an excited twinge when they said #2 was putting on his helmet....
It's completely pointless to debate about who's 20th or 22nd best, isnt it?.......This is basically the same team with Orton or Hoyer or any of those other guys, because none of them are Manning, Brady, Brees or Luck.
The way I see it is there are really only about 10 no brainer QB's in the whole league.....then there's everybody else. A long line of 20-30 QB's that are basically unproven or haven't found the right situation....some have flashed and some haven't...some find the right system or team and some dont......
right now, Hoyers one who has landed in the right situation and it's worked out well for him and the Browns.....No more, no less.
So, Orton is 26th and Hoyer is 22nd....or Visa versa......Who cares??
Only a hand full of teams are lucky enough to get the opportunity to pick a Luck, Elway or Manning....Happens only once every 10 years or so....and some even get lucky with a Brady, Montana or Romo type .....The rest(re:most) have to find a way to win without a premier QB who can carry the whole ship....with these teams, it's more about the team, than the QB. Thats where were at.
The hypothetical question about "who" would I release right now?(BH or JFF) is hard to answer, because I haven't seen #2 play yet. The Browns see him everyday though.....we have no idea what they think, but they have an idea for sure...... and they keep saying he is the future(smokescreen? dunno).....and they dont say that about BH....Ever......so, if I HAD to pick one.....Id probably swing blindly for the fences and keep JFF......just praying he's one of those top 10 QB's....otherwise, if he's just another one of the 20 average players, it wont really matter much
With that, I am assuming jff looks good in practice.....and is still progressing nicely.....and is still the ultimate final plan for the team. And that is the reason Farmer and Pettine are so reluctant to publicly declare Hoyer the man, while they are happy to say the love JFF, dont regret the pick, etc.
I know stockton wants him now. Others not yet. I dont think the coaches should mess with team chemistry and such, but there will be an opportunity somewhere and they will seize it. Im certain(100%) we will see him eventually. Personally, I feel it was the right time yesterday, right after that second hit BH took from Cushing. Wasn;t happy(at all) to see BH taking lumps like that, but did feel an excited twinge when they said #2 was putting on his helmet....
Excellent take guy. There are only a handful of "real" franchise qbs out there, and they only come around rarely. No guarantee that Manziel is one of those guys, and I'd say the odds are stacked against him- for a bunch of reasons. You can win a Super Bowl with less that a Brady or Manning, assuming the rest of the team is solid.
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Browns are not good enough to win the Super Bowl this year and Hoyer isn't the future.
Once those two things are clear you are doing nothing but spinning your tires in the mud by not playing Manziel.
As I've been saying all season, you're wasting time. You're wasting time gaining experience for a player who may or may not be your future, and you're wasting time with a player who you know isn't the future. What sense does that make?
The minute Manziel is the starter then he has to start a process of learning on the field. We will have to take a step back when that happens. Why not do it during the year you KNOW you're not Super Bowl contenders and why not sacrifice the guy who you KNOW isn't a Franchise QB?
Like I've said, low self esteem. You're so happy not to be the worst team in the NFL anymore, that you no longer care about reaching for that next level. You are more than happy with winning 8-9 games for the next 3 years and never making the playoffs. Its like being content with a 30k a year job and never looking to advance all while saying "Well I used to flat broke so this is awesome". Its a loser attitude.
If you're not trying to build for a Super Bowl then what are you really doing? Not shit.Browns are not good enough to win the Super Bowl this year and Hoyer isn't the future.
Once those two things are clear you are doing nothing but spinning your tires in the mud by not playing Manziel.
As I've been saying all season, you're wasting time. You're wasting time gaining experience for a player who may or may not be your future, and you're wasting time with a player who you know isn't the future. What sense does that make?
The minute Manziel is the starter then he has to start a process of learning on the field. We will have to take a step back when that happens. Why not do it during the year you KNOW you're not Super Bowl contenders and why not sacrifice the guy who you KNOW isn't a Franchise QB?
Like I've said, low self esteem. You're so happy not to be the worst team in the NFL anymore, that you no longer care about reaching for that next level. You are more than happy with winning 8-9 games for the next 3 years and never making the playoffs. Its like being content with a 30k a year job and never looking to advance all while saying "Well I used to flat broke so this is awesome". Its a loser attitude.
If you're not trying to build for a Super Bowl then what are you really doing? Not shit.
Did you just cut and paste that from one of your previous posts? Because it's about the 10th time I've seen it. Yawn. All I can say is I'm sure glad you're not a GM of an NFL team, because none of them would ever throw away a season just because they weren't ready to contend for a Super Bowl. If that was the case around 20 NFL teams should be packing it in already, including several teams currently 6-4 like the Browns. You play to win games NOW, not next year. You go for "future development" when you're hopelessly out of playoff contention- like the Raiders, Jags and Bucs, and not until.
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Fact is Hoyer has had 10 games to this point to prove hes THE GUY and to prove he's worth a big contract.
He's failed to prove that. You want to argue that he hasn't been bad, go ahead, but you can't argue he's been great and only great was going to save his job.
Hoyer has left doubt too much doubt.That's what everyone is leaving out when arguing about Hoyers play. You tell me "Oh well the defense is the bigger problem" and "Oh well our run game isn't going right now" thats fine. But Hoyer, in his job, hasn't been good enough to make people say "Thats the guy" Not even close. He has had his shot and he hasn't taken advantage of it. He hasn't shown to be good enough. While you're arguing individual games or plays, you're all missing the big picture which is Hoyer isn't the long term answer.
Fact is Hoyer has had 10 games to this point to prove hes THE GUY and to prove he's worth a big contract.
He's failed to prove that. You want to argue that he hasn't been bad, go ahead, but you can't argue he's been great and only great was going to save his job.
Hoyer has left doubt too much doubt.
That's what everyone is leaving out when arguing about Hoyers play. You tell me "Oh well the defense is the bigger problem" and "Oh well our run game isn't going right now" thats fine. But Hoyer, in his job, hasn't been good enough to make people say "Thats the guy" Not even close. He has had his shot and he hasn't taken advantage of it. He hasn't shown to be good enough. While you're arguing individual games or plays, you're all missing the big picture which is Hoyer isn't the long term answer.
Probably not, but the coaches feel he's at least the short term answer. Hell's bells, Pettine cut Ben Tate, you honestly think he wouldn't bench Hoyer if he thought Manziel gave him a better chance to win NOW? 6-4 guy- that's the only stat that matters- and until the Browns are out of playoff contention, or Hoyer starts playing like Brandon Wee-done on a consistent basis, Manziel sits.
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Frankly we don't know yet. We know that none of Hoyers previous employers thought he was starting material. We know that no team thought he was in the upper echelon of the draft.Aside from his ability to randomly be fortunate enough to have defenders go full Retard, what serious advantage does JFF hold over Hoyer? Please... aside from his legs, the most useless component of an NFL QB, what is it?
We know that some of his statistics have been among the lowest in the league.
As most people have agreed to previously Johnny football could quite possibly be an elite quarterback. Or a monumental bust.
I'm in brian corner but for the anti Jonny crowd don't you guys wish Hoyer was looking a lot better? And wouldn't you be more concerned if he was from Texas and Johnny was from Cleveland?
WSS
Frankly we don't know yet. We know that none of Hoyers previous employers thought he was starting material. We know that no team thought he was in the upper echelon of the draft.
We know that some of his statistics have been among the lowest in the league.
As most people have agreed to previously Johnny football could quite possibly be an elite quarterback. Or a monumental bust.
I'm in brian corner but for the anti Jonny crowd don't you guys wish Hoyer was looking a lot better? And wouldn't you be more concerned if he was from Texas and Johnny was from Cleveland?
WSS
Actually, Hoyer's previous employers had quarterbacks named Palmer, Roethlisberger, and Brady. That's why he wasn't a starter, or at least a large majority of the reason.
Brian reminds me a lot of Bernie in some ways ... a home town kid who isn't the perfect, prototypical quarterback. Bernie was super smart, and could dissect a defense, but didn't have a lot of athletic ability. Brian's got more athletic ability, puts in the hours of study, and "manages" the game.
If the kid wins ... I don't care how he does it. I'll take ugly wins, over pretty losing.
Brian's played with a makeshift receiving corp, missing Mack, Cameron, Gordon, sometimes all three. Mack, almost single-handedly derailed the offense ... and yet, Brian has gutted out wins. I'll take it. If he played like crap every week, and the team was losing, I would say throw Manziel to the wolves to see what he can do ... but not before then.
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F**cking broken record.
BTW, you're getting to the point you're starting to piss a bunch of posters off with your incessant mantra. For the last time
WE GOT WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM.
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Hoyer is doing a pretty good job for the talent around him. Imagine Mike Evans or Jordan Mathews opposite Josh Gordon. It doesn't look like Jordan Cameron is going to be playing anytime soon and he's not dependable any more. He's also had too many concussions. Hopefully the Farmer will get the memo and draft a wide receiver next year. A big tall wide receiver who will take the pressure off Gordon. Then Farmer should draft a Khalil Mack or Anthony Barr seeing how we have two first rounders. If they don't trade away their picks again. But I like Hoyer's style and smart play. At least he doesn't throw interceptions and take sacks like Brandon (caught in the headlights) Weeden. We should feel lucky to have two potential starters. If Tony Romo goes down their season is over. The same can be said for Denver, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Greenbay, Kansas City, and Baltimore.
So Im sending some positive vibes down Hoyer's way when he wins in Atlanta.
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Frankly we don't know yet. We know that none of Hoyers previous employers thought he was starting material. We know that no team thought he was in the upper echelon of the draft.
We know that some of his statistics have been among the lowest in the league.
As most people have agreed to previously Johnny football could quite possibly be an elite quarterback. Or a monumental bust.
I'm in brian corner but for the anti Jonny crowd don't you guys wish Hoyer was looking a lot better? And wouldn't you be more concerned if he was from Texas and Johnny was from Cleveland?
WSS
Actually, Hoyer's previous employers had quarterbacks named Palmer, Roethlisberger, and Brady. That's why he wasn't a starter, or at least a large majority of the reason.
Brian reminds me a lot of Bernie in some ways ... a home town kid who isn't the perfect, prototypical quarterback. Bernie was super smart, and could dissect a defense, but didn't have a lot of athletic ability. Brian's got more athletic ability, puts in the hours of study, and "manages" the game.
If the kid wins ... I don't care how he does it. I'll take ugly wins, over pretty losing.
Brian's played with a makeshift receiving corp, missing Mack, Cameron, Gordon, sometimes all three. Mack, almost single-handedly derailed the offense ... and yet, Brian has gutted out wins. I'll take it. If he played like crap every week, and the team was losing, I would say throw Manziel to the wolves to see what he can do ... but not before then.
YepActually, Hoyer's previous employers had quarterbacks named Palmer, Roethlisberger, and Brady. That's why he wasn't a starter, or at least a large majority of the reason.
Brian reminds me a lot of Bernie in some ways ... a home town kid who isn't the perfect, prototypical quarterback. Bernie was super smart, and could dissect a defense, but didn't have a lot of athletic ability. Brian's got more athletic ability, puts in the hours of study, and "manages" the game.
If the kid wins ... I don't care how he does it. I'll take ugly wins, over pretty losing.
Brian's played with a makeshift receiving corp, missing Mack, Cameron, Gordon, sometimes all three. Mack, almost single-handedly derailed the offense ... and yet, Brian has gutted out wins. I'll take it. If he played like crap every week, and the team was losing, I would say throw Manziel to the wolves to see what he can do ... but not before then.
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Frankly we don't know yet. We know that none of Hoyers previous employers thought he was starting material. We know that no team thought he was in the upper echelon of the draft.
We know that some of his statistics have been among the lowest in the league.
As most people have agreed to previously Johnny football could quite possibly be an elite quarterback. Or a monumental bust.
I'm in brian corner but for the anti Jonny crowd don't you guys wish Hoyer was looking a lot better? And wouldn't you be more concerned if he was from Texas and Johnny was from Cleveland?
WSS
Actually, Hoyer's previous employers had quarterbacks named Palmer, Roethlisberger, and Brady. That's why he wasn't a starter, or at least a large majority of the reason.
Brian reminds me a lot of Bernie in some ways ... a home town kid who isn't the perfect, prototypical quarterback. Bernie was super smart, and could dissect a defense, but didn't have a lot of athletic ability. Brian's got more athletic ability, puts in the hours of study, and "manages" the game.
If the kid wins ... I don't care how he does it. I'll take ugly wins, over pretty losing.
Brian's played with a makeshift receiving corp, missing Mack, Cameron, Gordon, sometimes all three. Mack, almost single-handedly derailed the offense ... and yet, Brian has gutted out wins. I'll take it. If he played like crap every week, and the team was losing, I would say throw Manziel to the wolves to see what he can do ... but not before then.
I hope he gets better. But the fact that Roethlisberger Brady et al were starting has no bearing on the fact that the staffs of these other football teams didn't consider him valuable enough to play back up to them.Actually, Hoyer's previous employers had quarterbacks named Palmer, Roethlisberger, and Brady. That's why he wasn't a starter, or at least a large majority of the reason.
Brian reminds me a lot of Bernie in some ways ... a home town kid who isn't the perfect, prototypical quarterback. Bernie was super smart, and could dissect a defense, but didn't have a lot of athletic ability. Brian's got more athletic ability, puts in the hours of study, and "manages" the game.
If the kid wins ... I don't care how he does it. I'll take ugly wins, over pretty losing.
Brian's played with a makeshift receiving corp, missing Mack, Cameron, Gordon, sometimes all three. Mack, almost single-handedly derailed the offense ... and yet, Brian has gutted out wins. I'll take it. If he played like crap every week, and the team was losing, I would say throw Manziel to the wolves to see what he can do ... but not before then.
Also claims of super intelligence are usually showered upon players you don't have the physical skills. I don't know how one would determine that he was a genius. I think it's a made up statistic stemming from wishful thinking. If the quarterback knows what the defense is going to do it would seem the team should be undefeated.
WSS
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F**cking broken record.
BTW, you're getting to the point you're starting to piss a bunch of posters off with your incessant mantra. For the last time
WE GOT WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM.
F**cking broken record.
BTW, you're getting to the point you're starting to piss a bunch of posters off with your incessant mantra. For the last time
WE GOT WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM.
Lol, most we of us around here are pretty astute football fans, we have a good idea what we have with Hoyer, we can see where his limitations may be ... we just want to let it play out.
The coaching staff is going with Hoyer, we're in contention and we just want to see what develops.
We haven't made the playoffs in forever, no one was expecting a Super Bowl this year, so if Hoyer is more ready to lead the team on gameday, then so be it.
So this whole "Hoyer is never going to win a Super Bowl so off with his head" argument is inane and insane.
We are VERY EARLY in this whole process. Farmer's first year, Pettine's first year. Just fucking let it play out, Stockton.
Alex Smith got Harbaugh's Niners close, then Kap got them to the Super Bowl. Steve Burlein got those great Cowboys of the 90's their first playoff win ... then Aikman won the Super Bowls. Maybe Hoyer guides us to respectability, and then Manziel takes us to greatness. Maybe Hoyer shits the bed the next couple of weeks and Manziel gets his chance ... that wouldn't make you "right", Stock Boy, it just means you were fucking obnoxious the whole way through the process that needed to happen.
And if Hoyer does win a SB someday, we weren't right either. We're just a bunch of Browns fans that are OK with him starting for now.
And you are coral-shirt-wearing, backpack-dragging, shit-eating Hoyer-obsessed college punk with too much time on your fucking hands. Coming in only after losses and poor performances is the definition of a troll. but more than that, it is cowardice. We've lost some pretty good posters around here because they couldn't get off their obsessions, or kept bashing Browns fans for rooting for Browns players, so I have no problem pulling the trigger on you, Stocky, so if you want to stick around long enough to tell us "You told us so" then keep all your fucking Hoyer stuff in one thread and quit fucking repeating yourself because we're Browns fans just trying to enjoy the season playing out, we all get what you are saying ... we get it ... we're good ... now move on to other subjects, or Please, for the Love of God, discover www.barkinghard.com.
Zombo
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Let's just do the kitna/Palmer plan.
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I like DPN but that is a very poorly constructed article.
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Browns are not good enough to win the Super Bowl this year and Hoyer isn't the future.
Once those two things are clear you are doing nothing but spinning your tires in the mud by not playing Manziel.
As I've been saying all season, you're wasting time. You're wasting time gaining experience for a player who may or may not be your future, and you're wasting time with a player who you know isn't the future. What sense does that make?
The minute Manziel is the starter then he has to start a process of learning on the field. We will have to take a step back when that happens. Why not do it during the year you KNOW you're not Super Bowl contenders and why not sacrifice the guy who you KNOW isn't a Franchise QB?
Like I've said, low self esteem. You're so happy not to be the worst team in the NFL anymore, that you no longer care about reaching for that next level. You are more than happy with winning 8-9 games for the next 3 years and never making the playoffs. Its like being content with a 30k a year job and never looking to advance all while saying "Well I used to flat broke so this is awesome". Its a loser attitude.
If you're not trying to build for a Super Bowl then what are you really doing? Not shit.Like I've said, low self esteem. You're so happy not to be the worst team in the NFL anymore, that you no longer care about reaching for that next level.
Zombo said:
Lol, most we of us around here are pretty astute football fans, we have a good idea what we have with Hoyer, we can see where his limitations may be ... we just want to let it play out.
Z,
I had no idea you too ran such significant self-esteem deficit...
Fortunately there's someone here with plenty to spare for all of us.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Like I've said, low self esteem. You're so happy not to be the worst team in the NFL anymore, that you no longer care about reaching for that next level.
Zombo said:
Lol, most we of us around here are pretty astute football fans, we have a good idea what we have with Hoyer, we can see where his limitations may be ... we just want to let it play out.
Z,
I had no idea you too ran such significant self-esteem deficit...
Fortunately there's someone here with plenty to spare for all of us.
Z,
I had no idea you too ran such significant self-esteem deficit...
Fortunately there's someone here with plenty to spare for all of us.
Our pal is so fixated on Hoyer's bad throws, and poor stats, he cant see the positives. Like 9-4 as a starter. You'd have to go back to to Vinny T (barely 16-15, OK I had to look it up) and Bernie to find a Browns quarterback who could say that. I'm not blind to the growing body of evidence Hoyer is a marginal starter, and probably a great backup to have. The Cardinals would be up shit creek if Stanton wasn't saving their bacon this season. As Z said, I'm not a Hoyer fan per se, I'm a fan of winning Browns football games on Sunday. Brian starts playing like Wee-done for a couple weeks, sure I want Johnny Football out there to see what he can do- and I'll be cheering for him to play a damnsite better than Bortles and Carr have done this year.
So, let's posit what would happen if Stockton gets his wish- and Manziel plays like crap. Are they going to draft another qb in the first round 2015? I doubt it. Short of a total 0-6 collapse down the stretch, the Browns have already played themselves out of the Mariotta derby, and I doubt Farmer would be willing to take a dice roll on Famous Jameis. That's the short list of "franchise worthy" qbs coming out next year.
It's the same rinse, wash, repeat mantra others have posited- just keep drafting qbs in the first round until you get the next Aaron Rodgers.
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I have zero insider facts and no agenda with the QB debate. Im just one who wants to win. With whoever. Hoyers a nice story, but only looks "ok" to me. Johnnys fans are annoying as phuck, but I was pretty hyped when we picked him. Would love to see him play one day.
But, my big GUESS in this whole QB debate is the Browns ultimate plan is to go with Johnny, with Shaw as the planned back up. They are a matched set and should be good to go by next summer. Hoyer was perfect for this season and both him and the team got something positive from it. But, in the end, I think he will accept an offer from another team and move on, helping the Browns make the transition to JFF without too much controversy. .
The one thing I feel like I think I know is that we wont be drafting a QB this year. Early or late. And there wont be a quarterback controversy at training camp 2015. Just a hunch.
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Could very well be true, Mud.
I've never heard Pettine state any objection to a QB starting his 2nd year in the league.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Could very well be true, Mud.
I've never heard Pettine state any objection to a QB starting his 2nd year in the league.
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