Jonathan Paul Manziel
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So Gipper, your point is that some QBs have been taken in the first round, some of whom have been busts, some not, and JFF might fall in to either category? Because tautologies are tautologies...
Yes, that's it. I am saying that he will be good...or he will be a bust. Unlike his chances I am more likely to be right.
(though....he could fall into that category of being "just OK". or just above or below average.
Yes, that's it. I am saying that he will be good...or he will be a bust. Unlike his chances I am more likely to be right.
(though....he could fall into that category of being "just OK". or just above or below average.
So, you have no point? I mean, do you really think anybody here needed you to point all that out for them? Did anybody think all first round QBs go on to be hall of famers? Because if so I suspect they have bigger issues.
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Its not logic.....it is mathematics....or probablilities, that's all.
Which mean shit all on an individual basis.
Which mean shit all on an individual basis.
I thought the term was "fuck all".......but yes, this was not intended to apply specifically to JFF....or to predict his future. It was simply meant to point out that historically speaking, QBs in his similar situation have been good, bad, and indifferent.
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Gip, something like that... I know exactly what cowherd is, and it's ALWAYS a good sign when he trashes Johnny. You should have heard him after last year's bama game. "That Manziel guy is better than I thought. He has a stronger arm than I thought, etc."
Btw, the Aggies lost to bama 59-0 this year. I bet all those Aggie fans that were glad Johnny and his "issues" went to the nfl are now maybe wishing he'd stayed another year.
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Just sounds like more long winded, anti JFF rhetoric to me.
No, if you know me you know I do a lot of this sort of thing. They are just interesting tidbits.
I guess I could have shortened it a bit and instead of doing all NFL first round QB picks I could have just done the history of Browns first round QB picks.....and what would that result be? Pretty bad:
Phipps
Kosar
Couch
Quinn
Weeden
Success rate then would only be about 20%.
No, if you know me you know I do a lot of this sort of thing. They are just interesting tidbits.
I guess I could have shortened it a bit and instead of doing all NFL first round QB picks I could have just done the history of Browns first round QB picks.....and what would that result be? Pretty bad:
Phipps
Kosar
Couch
Quinn
Weeden
Success rate then would only be about 20%.
Given the success rate of 1st round QBs in general is higher than 20%, the logical conclusion is the Browns have historically been worse than most teams at drafting QBs.
"I said, 'I need someone who's going to want to get on the roller coaster with me knowing that it's not always going to be fun,'" -Paul DePodesta -
Hope has two beautiful daughters: Their names are Anger and Courage. Anger that things are the way they are. Courage to make them the way they ought to be. - St. Augustine. Throughout the centuries there were men who took first steps down new roads armed with nothing but their vision. - Ayn Rand -
Mudfly, I've never said Johnny will ne a great pro. I've said I hope he becomes one, and I have a history of seeing him not fail against overwhelming odds.
My main point in my first post was that most first-round qb busts are big strong-armed guys who "look" like the right guy, but have huge overlooked flaws. Johnny in no way fits that description. He was taken so high because he is awesome at every other part of the game other than size. If he was 6' 4", he would be Andrew Luck who maybe parties too much.
And I'm not trying to be a broken record, I only talk Johnny on Johnny threads, and usually try to be a voice of reason, not a rah-rah guy.
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Yes, that's it. I am saying that he will be good...or he will be a bust. Unlike his chances I am more likely to be right.
(though....he could fall into that category of being "just OK". or just above or below average.
So, you have no point? I mean, do you really think anybody here needed you to point all that out for them? Did anybody think all first round QBs go on to be hall of famers? Because if so I suspect they have bigger issues.
So, you have no point? I mean, do you really think anybody here needed you to point all that out for them? Did anybody think all first round QBs go on to be hall of famers? Because if so I suspect they have bigger issues.
Yes, I do think people here needed it pointed out who and how many in the past of 1st rounders succeeded and busted. And whether they "need" to know or not, it is still interesting to know.
I also do think that there may be some out there that do think that by virtue of having drafted a QB in the first round that they are getting a HOF caliber QB. And this simply disavows them of that notion.
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why was this thread even started about a guy who hasn't taken a single regular season snap and is a rookie? stfu and lock this.
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No, if you know me you know I do a lot of this sort of thing. They are just interesting tidbits.
I guess I could have shortened it a bit and instead of doing all NFL first round QB picks I could have just done the history of Browns first round QB picks.....and what would that result be? Pretty bad:
Phipps
Kosar
Couch
Quinn
Weeden
Success rate then would only be about 20%.
Given the success rate of 1st round QBs in general is higher than 20%, the logical conclusion is the Browns have historically been worse than most teams at drafting QBs.
Given the success rate of 1st round QBs in general is higher than 20%, the logical conclusion is the Browns have historically been worse than most teams at drafting QBs.
Uhhh.....yea. It would be interesting to break it down by teams to see who have done well and who hasn't.
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So, you have no point? I mean, do you really think anybody here needed you to point all that out for them? Did anybody think all first round QBs go on to be hall of famers? Because if so I suspect they have bigger issues.
Yes, I do think people here needed it pointed out who and how many in the past of 1st rounders succeeded and busted. And whether they "need" to know or not, it is still interesting to know.
I also do think that there may be some out there that do think that by virtue of having drafted a QB in the first round that they are getting a HOF caliber QB. And this simply disavows them of that notion.
Yes, I do think people here needed it pointed out who and how many in the past of 1st rounders succeeded and busted. And whether they "need" to know or not, it is still interesting to know.
I also do think that there may be some out there that do think that by virtue of having drafted a QB in the first round that they are getting a HOF caliber QB. And this simply disavows them of that notion.
Not a single browns fan (in particular) thinks that. Some Aggie fanboys? They want to see johnny play. They don't assume he's going to be great because he was a first rounder, they assume he's going to be great because they saw him play at TAMU.
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Uhhh.....yea. It would be interesting to break it down by teams to see who have done well and who hasn't.
Colts, last two times at least did well.
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Mudfly, I've never said Johnny will ne a great pro. I've said I hope he becomes one, and I have a history of seeing him not fail against overwhelming odds.
My main point in my first post was that most first-round qb busts are big strong-armed guys who "look" like the right guy, but have huge overlooked flaws. Johnny in no way fits that description. He was taken so high because he is awesome at every other part of the game other than size. If he was 6' 4", he would be Andrew Luck who maybe parties too much.
And I'm not trying to be a broken record, I only talk Johnny on Johnny threads, and usually try to be a voice of reason, not a rah-rah guy.
Mudfly, I've never said Johnny will ne a great pro. I've said I hope he becomes one, and I have a history of seeing him not fail against overwhelming odds.
My main point in my first post was that most first-round qb busts are big strong-armed guys who "look" like the right guy, but have huge overlooked flaws. Johnny in no way fits that description. He was taken so high because he is awesome at every other part of the game other than size. If he was 6' 4", he would be Andrew Luck who maybe parties too much.
And I'm not trying to be a broken record, I only talk Johnny on Johnny threads, and usually try to be a voice of reason, not a rah-rah guy.
But what you seem to be arguing "Johnny isn't the prototypical 1st round guy" could be interpreted as saying "Johnny could be expected to have a higher chance of failure" than other 1st rounders. That is what I am hearing....but I don't think that is what you want to say.
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If you look at the 10 or so "true franchise" QB's in the league, it should be obvious that there is basically only one every year or 2. Period. So, if there is one a year and they last 10-12 years, then it stands to reason that there will always be 10-12 good ones and then the rest....
So, assuming there's only 1 available per draft, and you dont have the ist pick, do you just ignore the need for a QB or do you take a swing at the next one in line?
So, if a team takes one and he sucks....then they were stupid and made the wrong pick. And if they don't take him, then they are stupid and didn't even try to address their biggest problem....
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why was this thread even started about a guy who hasn't taken a single regular season snap and is a rookie? stfu and lock this.
why was this thread even started about a guy who hasn't taken a single regular season snap and is a rookie? stfu and lock this.
Because, honestly.....I wanted this to be more about the history than Johnny.......but I should have know better than to expect all y'all to not make it an exclusive Johnny thread.
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Yes, I do think people here needed it pointed out who and how many in the past of 1st rounders succeeded and busted. And whether they "need" to know or not, it is still interesting to know.
I also do think that there may be some out there that do think that by virtue of having drafted a QB in the first round that they are getting a HOF caliber QB. And this simply disavows them of that notion.
Not a single browns fan (in particular) thinks that. Some Aggie fanboys? They want to see johnny play. They don't assume he's going to be great because he was a first rounder, they assume he's going to be great because they saw him play at TAMU.
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If you look at the 10 or so "true franchise" QB's in the league, it should be obvious that there is basically only one every year or 2. Period. So, if there is one a year and they last 10-12 years, then it stands to reason that there will always be 10-12 good ones and then the rest....
So, assuming there's only 1 available per draft, and you dont have the ist pick, do you just ignore the need for a QB or do you take a swing at the next one in line?
So, if a team takes one and he sucks....then they were stupid and made the wrong pick. And if they don't take him, then they are stupid and didn't even try to address their biggest problem....
If you look at the 10 or so "true franchise" QB's in the league, it should be obvious that there is basically only one every year or 2. Period. So, if there is one a year and they last 10-12 years, then it stands to reason that there will always be 10-12 good ones and then the rest....
So, assuming there's only 1 available per draft, and you dont have the ist pick, do you just ignore the need for a QB or do you take a swing at the next one in line?
So, if a team takes one and he sucks....then they were stupid and made the wrong pick. And if they don't take him, then they are stupid and didn't even try to address their biggest problem....
Fair enough
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If you look at the 10 or so "true franchise" QB's in the league, it should be obvious that there is basically only one every year or 2. Period. So, if there is one a year and they last 10-12 years, then it stands to reason that there will always be 10-12 good ones and then the rest....
So, assuming there's only 1 available per draft, and you dont have the ist pick, do you just ignore the need for a QB or do you take a swing at the next one in line?
So, if a team takes one and he sucks....then they were stupid and made the wrong pick. And if they don't take him, then they are stupid and didn't even try to address their biggest problem....
If you look at the 10 or so "true franchise" QB's in the league, it should be obvious that there is basically only one every year or 2. Period. So, if there is one a year and they last 10-12 years, then it stands to reason that there will always be 10-12 good ones and then the rest....
So, assuming there's only 1 available per draft, and you dont have the ist pick, do you just ignore the need for a QB or do you take a swing at the next one in line?
So, if a team takes one and he sucks....then they were stupid and made the wrong pick. And if they don't take him, then they are stupid and didn't even try to address their biggest problem....
Fair enough
And, taking it one further....still assuming one "franchise" qb per year....
means, if every team had an equal shot(and they dont), it would take 32 years for each team to pick one.....
and we know that some teams get more shots than other teams.....
so, I can see how one can literally go decades before hitting the Jackpot on a QB.....
And I can also see WHY a team would stick with an average looking QB who wins.....
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Mudfly, I've never said Johnny will ne a great pro. I've said I hope he becomes one, and I have a history of seeing him not fail against overwhelming odds.
My main point in my first post was that most first-round qb busts are big strong-armed guys who "look" like the right guy, but have huge overlooked flaws. Johnny in no way fits that description. He was taken so high because he is awesome at every other part of the game other than size. If he was 6' 4", he would be Andrew Luck who maybe parties too much.
And I'm not trying to be a broken record, I only talk Johnny on Johnny threads, and usually try to be a voice of reason, not a rah-rah guy.
But what you seem to be arguing "Johnny isn't the prototypical 1st round guy" could be interpreted as saying "Johnny could be expected to have a higher chance of failure" than other 1st rounders. That is what I am hearing....but I don't think that is what you want to say.
But what you seem to be arguing "Johnny isn't the prototypical 1st round guy" could be interpreted as saying "Johnny could be expected to have a higher chance of failure" than other 1st rounders. That is what I am hearing....but I don't think that is what you want to say.
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and taking it one further.....assuming there is only one obvious Elway, Manning or Luck every 10 years.....
Then it would 320 years for us each to get one.....and thats only with everyone getting an equal shot......
And the fact that INDY got the last 2, says we all dont get an equal shot.....
Think about it....
So, we could wait another 400 years....or.....go with the best we got.
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But what you seem to be arguing "Johnny isn't the prototypical 1st round guy" could be interpreted as saying "Johnny could be expected to have a higher chance of failure" than other 1st rounders. That is what I am hearing....but I don't think that is what you want to say.
But what you seem to be arguing "Johnny isn't the prototypical 1st round guy" could be interpreted as saying "Johnny could be expected to have a higher chance of failure" than other 1st rounders. That is what I am hearing....but I don't think that is what you want to say.
No, not saying that. I'm saying the opposite. He is the anti-jamarcus Russell/Ryan Leaf/Ponder/ej Manuel.
He was taken in the first round DESPITE the fact he is a little under 6 feet tall. The only other first round "bust" comparable to Manziel would be Vick, if he is considered a bust, and that's debatable.
Hopefully, Johnny isn't running an illegal dog-fighting ring on the side in Kerrville.
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