The Defense thread...
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So, what do we all think about our defense and where it's headed? Scheme wise are you happy with it and just want to keep drafting and signing to fit this scheme? I'd like to see a discussion about what people who know defense think we should do, change or continue to build the current scheme.
My personal thoughts are that we should run more what Buffalo is running. I really liked what I saw from them and I thought this was the continuation of Pettine's scheme when he was there? They show a base 4-3 most of the time but will swap out a DE or an OLB'er type and move to 3-4 looks when they see something. My opinion from what I see from the Browns is that our OLB'ers are 4-3 DE's trying to fit into a 3-4. If we drafted another more Mingo type OLB'er we could show 4-3 on most downs with Sheard and Kruger rotating into the DE spots, then maybe some games run more base 3-4's with Mingo and another 3-4 OLB'er. I think Sheard and Kruger are pulling too much duty, both look like they're peddling it one week and beasting the next. Kruger especially looked like 2013 one dimensional pass rusher Kruger yesterday.
I can tell now when he's not feeling it cause his rip is nonexistent. When he starts slapping the tackles hands down to go around the edge I can tell now how the day is going to be for him. His best games come when he shows the dip and rip to the tackles outside shoulder and digs in around the corner. When he's trying to run around the corner with as little contact as possible you can forget about getting any real QB pressure from him that day. Just not gonna happen. Same with Sheard. Jabaal has a really good under rip to the inside but all he was doing yesterday was extending his arms, wasn't getting any real push. Neither were exploding off the line. Just too many minutes on these guys. This scheme asks them to be on the field every down. They're not built to be every down OLB'ers in a 3-4. They can do it, but they're gonna get tired.
I'd like to see us go back to the 4-3 in some games where we have a Kruger, Sheard and Bryant rotating around the DE spots. We could do a nasty NASCAR package on long downs like the Giants do with Mingo, Sheard, Kruger and Bryant. And like I said, some games maybe we need cover guys out there so run 3-4's with two dedicated OLB'ers. Sheard and Kruger could still come in and spell the OLB starters and also spot duty around the 3-4 DE. It just seems like this scheme is nerfing what should be our two best pass rushers, and nerfing them hard.
On a side note, in my mind Robertson has won the starting ILB spot on this team. For now, he's the guy. For the first time this season I saw a Browns ILB'er flash into the hole and meet some nigga's. I also saw him flash thorugh the o line on some sweeps. To be perfectly honest I have zero clue who was on the field with him yesterday as the other ILB'er. I can't think of one play where I saw another player with a 50 something jersey. It was always Robertsons number. Who else was out there? Kirksey? never saw him, not once. When I saw a good run stop it always either Robertson meeting the player first or a tandem of Robertson and our DL/OLB'ers. We lost edge containment again yesterday cause the edge's were being asked to pinch, so maybe that helped Robertson make those plays, I dunno. But it seemed like he was sniffing the proper gaps yesterday. We have some work to do with that position during the offseason in any case. We need a real defensive captain back there next year, somebody that the defense is listening to before every damn play.
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Do we know why Pettine's defense's are weak against the run?
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The defense has definitely progressed...shutting out buffalo for a half (not the greatest offense, but shutting out any NFL offense for 2 quarters is impressive) was certainly impressive.ManzielSucks said:
Pettine scheme is supposed to fit around his players. His and Schwartz run the defense differently, Pettine gets his pressure by his blitzing and Schwartz get it more from just the front 4 stunts. Schwartz is more come and get us and Pettine trys to hide and surprise in his defense.
Pettine has always struggled in the run even in Buffalo they were ranked in the bottom tier. Schwartz seems to have shred that up and the third down conversion rate is near top of the league.
I would like Pettine's defense to be better in the run stop to keep teams in 3rd and long. Other then that I like the turnovers they create and the attitude the defense has.
We stopped the run decently, but in the first half it was all about stacking and getting to Orton who couldn't be trusted under pressure. Second half we fell off.
I do think we need a little more strength up front which could help the run. Kitchen had a good game though, at least until he got tired.
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I love the Pettine scheme. It starting delivering damn near on the schedule he said it would. And even with all the injuries it has sustained a good performance level.
I think it will only get better.
I also think it is on the way to becoming the "O'Neil" defense.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
The defense has definitely progressed...shutting out buffalo for a half (not the greatest offense, but shutting out any NFL offense for 2 quarters is impressive) was certainly impressive.ManzielSucks said:
Pettine scheme is supposed to fit around his players. His and Schwartz run the defense differently, Pettine gets his pressure by his blitzing and Schwartz get it more from just the front 4 stunts. Schwartz is more come and get us and Pettine trys to hide and surprise in his defense.
Pettine has always struggled in the run even in Buffalo they were ranked in the bottom tier. Schwartz seems to have shred that up and the third down conversion rate is near top of the league.
I would like Pettine's defense to be better in the run stop to keep teams in 3rd and long. Other then that I like the turnovers they create and the attitude the defense has.
We stopped the run decently, but in the first half it was all about stacking and getting to Orton who couldn't be trusted under pressure. Second half we fell off.
I do think we need a little more strength up front which could help the run. Kitchen had a good game though, at least until he got tired.
The defense has definitely progressed...shutting out buffalo for a half (not the greatest offense, but shutting out any NFL offense for 2 quarters is impressive) was certainly impressive.
We stopped the run decently, but in the first half it was all about stacking and getting to Orton who couldn't be trusted under pressure. Second half we fell off.
I do think we need a little more strength up front which could help the run. Kitchen had a good game though, at least until he got tired.
besides the mugshot sack, did we ever really even breathe heavy on Orton? It looked to me like if the BIlls had a half way decent QB that game would have been a disastrous blow out. Granted Joe had Sammy covered pretty well...but there were a couple times that a top rate qb would have gotten Sammy the ball for some very long games. The biggest misses from Orton though came throwing to the other guy though, I can't remember his name. When Buffalo gets a good QB that team is going deep into the playoffs.
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The D will have to play its best game of the year this Sunday. The Colts come to town as the leagues highest scoring offense. They've scored more points than the Packers & the Pats.
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Forcing lots of turnovers which the Offense has completely wasted.
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we are weak against the run because our line is missing key guys. when taylor came back for a game we stuffed cincy. we're going to have to draft or sign DL next year....lots of DL. and maybe a backup center?
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I love the Pettine scheme. It starting delivering damn near on the schedule he said it would. And even with all the injuries it has sustained a good performance level.
I think it will only get better.
I also think it is on the way to becoming the "O'Neil" defense.
This. You guys have a very good defense. We ran for what? 70 yards total?? That's hideous for an NFL team. Our run D last year with Pettine was not great...I'd say there is improvement right there. You have young guys and can only get better. If there is something to improve, it would be the QB (just like the Bills). Once our teams find a franchise QB, all the other parts fall in line (see also Seattle, Pats, Chargers etc).I love the Pettine scheme. It starting delivering damn near on the schedule he said it would. And even with all the injuries it has sustained a good performance level.
I think it will only get better.
I also think it is on the way to becoming the "O'Neil" defense.
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George C said:
Mikes schemes are extremely reliant on man DB play. If you don't have man corners, he is in trouble with it. Man corners allow more concentration in the box, and when you remove that extra box safety to help, teams can run on you. I don't think he trusts Skrine 100% yet.
I don't care for Mikes scheme as much as schwartzs, especially when there are injuries.
Mikes schemes are very aggressive, and "aggressive and attacking" sells to the fan base, but when It breaks down, you are open to the big play and pay the price. It only takes a couple big plays to win a game.
Mike enjoyed a lot of healthy, injury free talent in NY and in Buffalo, especially a stout front in both cities and a very mobile tackling machine in Kiko Alonso at MLB last year. An injury to a key player is even more glaring when you play aggressive. I think that's what happened to Cleveland once Taylor went down.
Don't be surprised if you guys draft another DB very early. Not because of a deficiency, but I know Mike builds from the back to the front.
If we draft another DB early I'm gonna call for his job. Real talk. Unless every other hole on this team gets filled in FA, I dont' want to hear about a DB in the draft.
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George C said:
Mikes schemes are extremely reliant on man DB play. If you don't have man corners, he is in trouble with it. Man corners allow more concentration in the box, and when you remove that extra box safety to help, teams can run on you. I don't think he trusts Skrine 100% yet.
I don't care for Mikes scheme as much as schwartzs, especially when there are injuries.
Mikes schemes are very aggressive, and "aggressive and attacking" sells to the fan base, but when It breaks down, you are open to the big play and pay the price. It only takes a couple big plays to win a game.
Mike enjoyed a lot of healthy, injury free talent in NY and in Buffalo, especially a stout front in both cities and a very mobile tackling machine in Kiko Alonso at MLB last year. An injury to a key player is even more glaring when you play aggressive. I think that's what happened to Cleveland once Taylor went down.
Don't be surprised if you guys draft another DB very early. Not because of a deficiency, but I know Mike builds from the back to the front.
If we draft another DB early I'm gonna call for his job. Real talk. Unless every other hole on this team gets filled in FA, I dont' want to hear about a DB in the draft.
If we draft another DB early I'm gonna call for his job. Real talk. Unless every other hole on this team gets filled in FA, I dont' want to hear about a DB in the draft.
Lol. We have one of the best DB groups in the NFL already and it has 2 promising rookies on it (Idk what happened to Desir, but maybe he comes around). Idk if I'd call for anybody's job, but I'd definitely be questioning it.
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If we draft another DB early I'm gonna call for his job. Real talk. Unless every other hole on this team gets filled in FA, I dont' want to hear about a DB in the draft.
Lol. We have one of the best DB groups in the NFL already and it has 2 promising rookies on it (Idk what happened to Desir, but maybe he comes around). Idk if I'd call for anybody's job, but I'd definitely be questioning it.
Lol. We have one of the best DB groups in the NFL already and it has 2 promising rookies on it (Idk what happened to Desir, but maybe he comes around). Idk if I'd call for anybody's job, but I'd definitely be questioning it.
the words mad and rage wouldn't do justice to my state of mind if we passed on some stud LB'er or OL/DL in favor of another rookie DB. Unless the next Richard Sherman makes his presence known shortly at the college level...haven't heard of that guy all season though so I'm sticking with my original sentiment. If we pass again on guys that would produce "now" in favor of a project...raging.
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George C said:
I'm telling you what I think this guys priorities are. Blitz, blitz, blitz when he has the right people. To blitz, you need man corners you can trust.He likes his strength to be their DBs. He has one shut down corner. If he doesn't think Gilbert will develop, expect another next year. Remember it's just my opinion, but his recipe is the same as Rex Ryan.
When he has the right players, look the fuck out on defense.
I would trust him, and calling for his job just cuts your nuts off for the umpteenth time.
If you don't want him, he will have a job 15 minutes later.
You know the browns-bills game ended 28 hours ago, right?
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i dont think its he doesnt trust his corners. i think he dont trust the pass rush. it dont matter how good urcorners are if the qb has all day in the pocket...George C said:
How has the rage to fire a smart coach over the years been Workin for ha?
I'm telling you what I think this guys priorities are. Blitz, blitz, blitz when he has the right people. To blitz, you need man corners you can trust.He likes his strength to be their DBs. He has one shut down corner. If he doesn't think Gilbert will develop, expect another next year. Remember it's just my opinion, but his recipe is the same as Rex Ryan.
When he has the right players, look the fuck out on defense.
I would trust him, and calling for his job just cuts your nuts off for the umpteenth time.
If you don't want him, he will have a job 15 minutes later.
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George C said:
How has the rage to fire a smart coach over the years been Workin for ha?
I'm telling you what I think this guys priorities are. Blitz, blitz, blitz when he has the right people. To blitz, you need man corners you can trust.He likes his strength to be their DBs. He has one shut down corner. If he doesn't think Gilbert will develop, expect another next year. Remember it's just my opinion, but his recipe is the same as Rex Ryan.
When he has the right players, look the fuck out on defense.
I would trust him, and calling for his job just cuts your nuts off for the umpteenth time.
If you don't want him, he will have a job 15 minutes later.
Actually, if you watched the browns much this year you would know that we don't blitz that often. It depends on who the browns are up against. Some games are blitz heavy, but most haven't been..
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Something I'm seeing with the Browns for the first time is the building of a strong core group of players on both O and D. We have been really fortunate with undrafted players like Gabriel, Gipson and the rookie corner (who's name doesn't come to mind right now). Minus the injuries, this is a solid D with a good mix of young players and veterans. I can see the addition of a few DL 's and LB's in the coming draft to round out the D. Gilbert will hopefully come around, but we will probably lose Rubin to FA. I think another year in the system will improve the overall stats, if the group can remain healthy.
I know it's early but my choices for the first round draft are TE and WR. Then DL in round 2 and ILB/OL in rounds 3/4. That would give us a backup for Cameron, a WR to pair with Gordon, a DL to replace Rubin, and a fourth ILB to join the existing three key players we have at that position. An OL can add depth at center and guard.
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George C said:
How has the rage to fire a smart coach over the years been Workin for ha?
I'm telling you what I think this guys priorities are. Blitz, blitz, blitz when he has the right people. To blitz, you need man corners you can trust.He likes his strength to be their DBs. He has one shut down corner. If he doesn't think Gilbert will develop, expect another next year. Remember it's just my opinion, but his recipe is the same as Rex Ryan.
When he has the right players, look the fuck out on defense.
I would trust him, and calling for his job just cuts your nuts off for the umpteenth time.
If you don't want him, he will have a job 15 minutes later.
Fortunately its Farmer and Haslam calling the shots and not some fan on this board. There's a reason I have that quote from Haslam in my sig.
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George C said:
If you have shut down corners, you don't have to worry as much about a pass rush because your line will suddenly become studs because of your corners. You will get coverage sacks and picks all day long. It's a sick deal when working right.
(Revis and Cromartie)
Unfortunate that the defenses and style that took the Jets to the AFC champ back to back has been destroyed by the NFL's resounding focus on defensive holding and contact.
Revis and Crow wouldn't have been quite as effective today as they were in 09-11.
This is why I believe the strength of this defense must be in the trenches. If your Dline can generate pressure it greatly diminishes the zerbra's impact on the game.
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