Jonathan Paul Manziel
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All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
First impressions are lasting impressions . The disdain for Manziel was self induced.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
Really? he left the A&M at least two years early. There is where he needed to develop. But noooooo show me da money
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
That's funny, that was my sentiment too.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
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Thanks... for a moment I thought the sun might set in the east tonite.
Edited my post...
Which last week? This last week, AKA the CIN game, or last last week, AKA the IND game.
Habit 5: Seek First to Understand, Then to Be Understood
If this week's game is Carolina, last week's game must have been Cincy.
If this week's game is Carolina, last week's game must have been Cincy.
Ah... in that case the answer is "Yes".
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Longtime lurker...
It seems as though posters are arguing against one of two extremes when in reality the majority of individuals are more moderate in their respective positions.
Certain fans seem intent on stamping out what they perceive to be the Manziel "fanboys" who unabashedly felt that success in the SEC and a catchy nickname preordained Manziel to NFL superstardom at the expense of Brian Hoyer. I find this persecution to be rather quiotic, as I cant imagine many rational fans of the Browns and/or Manziel to have expected any player, regardless of pedigree, to step onto an NFL and dominate at the quarterback position. Conversely, there are certain Manziel supporters that feel as if many fans and the Browns organization itself has somehow concocted a scheme to ostracize Johnny, never allowing him the fair chance to succeed. Again, it defies logic to believe that any coach, front office personnel, or fan would implicitly compromise their livlihood (for coaches this is quantified by winnings, for fans it is their desire to support a winner) out of spite or some unfounded machonistic need.
From my perspective, I think that most rational individuals fall somewhere in between these two extremes. Manziel supporters by and large felt that Johnny had (has) the potential to develop into a quality NFL quarterback after progressing through the learning curve that nearly every quarterback....well, ever has had to master. More reserved Browns fans are hopeful that Manziel can succeed in Cleveland and acknowledge that he has certain skills that may be exciting, but too many heralded quarterbacks have come and gone throughout the years in Cleveland for them to have untempered enthusiasm for the latest golden-boy. Unfortunately, there do exist illogical individuals on both sides that rile up these more moderate fans and stoke the flames in favor or against whichever "faction" appears to be more substantiated at that time.
What we do know is that Johnny Manziel had a brutal first start in the NFL, approaching near-historic futility. I think that most of us would also agree that, thankfully, the overwhelming majority of NFL quarterbacks also struggled in their first start so all hope is not lost, yet. Of course the next milestone that all interested parties have set their sights on is Game 3, representing the last game of this season and a three game sample for Manziel. I'd also suggest that predictive power of the three game sample has not been historically strong for quarterbacks in like situations to Manziel's.
I surveyed a sample of current starting quarterbacks in the NFL that had relatively similar circumstances with regards to their first three starting opportunities. In reviewing the context of these experiences I took into account the year in which they debuted, their debut relative to their draft year, the pedrigree or "hype" surrounding them, and their role within the offense. For example, I dont find it as useful to look at Brady/Peyton from 15 years back, or Rodgers/Romo having the benifit of sitting for multiple seasons, or even Cam Newton/Luck who were expected to throw the ball 40 times a game and have the offense run through them from the onset. There were some players such as Matt Ryan and Russell Wilson that did come out of the gate and look solid, whereas other quarterbacks such as Jake Locker were omitted because they clearly have little future in this league and would only muddle our conversation.
In any event, I noted the following players and their respective performance through the first three starts or significant playing time of their careers. In order of the best debut performances to the worst...
Player--Comp%--TD/INT--Yds
Sanchez --59%--4/2--606
Cutler --59%--6/3--592
Shaun Hill --55%--6/3--537
Roethlisb. --61%--4/3--513
Brees --60%--3/2--504
Flacco --56%--1/2--450
Stafford --53%--2/5--598
Tannehill --53%--1/4--615
Fitzpatrick--54%--1/7--467
E.Manning-42%--1/4--423
Alex Smith-54%--0/8--351
You can notice a rather steep dropoff in production from Brees (arguably irrelevant data from 2001) to Flacco and the grouping below. What is clear to me is that the relative success, or lackthereof, of each player listed in that three game sample had very little predictive power in projecting their career success going forward. In fact, you have as many Super Bowl championships (3) from that top grouping as you do from the bottom grouping, with Stafford and Flacco still relatively young.
Now to be clear, Johnny Manziel's debut was worse than any of the aforementioned quarterbacks, arguably sans Smith & Manning. In addition, certain quarterbacks listed may have struggled on the field but clearly possessed physical NFL attributes beyond that of Manziel including the size and arm strength of Flacco, Manning, and Stafford. That being said, I think there is enough empirical evidence to suggest that Johnny's NFL obituary should not necessarily be written in December of his rookie season.
So, anyway..TL;DR...I think that the two opposing extreme viewpoints of Johnny are not truly indicative of how most rational fans feel. I think anyone foolish enough to suggest that Manziel could step onto an NFL field as a rookie and dominate should be taken as just that...a fool. I hope that folks can be a bit more forward thinking to realize that while Manziel was horrible in his NFL debut, there have been precadents set in which quarterbacks mastered the NFL learning curve after humbling rookie experiences.
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Dogpound is earning it's reputation this week. Dogpiling on a rookie for his first game. How proud you all must be. Bernie was right. Just trade him off somewhere and bring in another to trash out.
@junkyard-dawg said:
Double post.
FYI... there's a delete button...
Dogpound is earning it's reputation this week. Dogpiling on a rookie for his first game. How proud you all must be. Bernie was right. Just trade him off somewhere and bring in another to trash out.
And AG has entered phase 2, "Anger". Ever, when last seen was still in phase 1, "Denial and Isolation".
http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-5-stages-of-loss-and-grief/000617
Ag, I hope JM's skin is thicker than yours.
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All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
Damn near all of us were in agreement that it was time to see what Manziel had and for him to start. We saw enough of a spark in the Buffalo game to be excited about what he could bring to the table. We had been listening to all of these A&M honks (not necessarily you, but numerous other) telling us all season that the team would have won more games if only Johnny football was the QB.
He got his chance in the spotlight and took a giant shit in the middle of the field with the spotlight shining down on him. The problem this week has been the "fanboys" and the excuses and saying the most idiotic things like "he will get 200 starts for the Browns" and he's clearly the starter next year no matter what happens the rest of the season. It's the homos who are really only here because Manziel got drafted by the Browns that are making a lot of the people on this board hate the kid. I think all of understand that it's better for the Browns long term if Manziel is the answer at QB. Just like we hoped that Hoyer was the answer at QB. Just like we hoped that Weeden was the answer and McCoy and Delhomme and well..you get the picture.
He plays 2 more games like he did this past Sunday, he's not guaranteed shit for next season, even being in the league. There were plenty of analysts and scouts predraft saying that he didn't have what it takes in the NFL. There were plenty who also said he would be a superstar like Russell Wilson. The jury is still out but it certainly doesn't look very promising right now after the first game.
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You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
Damn near all of us were in agreement that it was time to see what Manziel had and for him to start. We saw enough of a spark in the Buffalo game to be excited about what he could bring to the table. We had been listening to all of these A&M honks (not necessarily you, but numerous other) telling us all season that the team would have won more games if only Johnny football was the QB.
He got his chance in the spotlight and took a giant shit in the middle of the field with the spotlight shining down on him. The problem this week has been the "fanboys" and the excuses and saying the most idiotic things like "he will get 200 starts for the Browns" and he's clearly the starter next year no matter what happens the rest of the season. It's the homos who are really only here because Manziel got drafted by the Browns that are making a lot of the people on this board hate the kid. I think all of understand that it's better for the Browns long term if Manziel is the answer at QB. Just like we hoped that Hoyer was the answer at QB. Just like we hoped that Weeden was the answer and McCoy and Delhomme and well..you get the picture.
He plays 2 more games like he did this past Sunday, he's not guaranteed shit for next season, even being in the league. There were plenty of analysts and scouts predraft saying that he didn't have what it takes in the NFL. There were plenty who also said he would be a superstar like Russell Wilson. The jury is still out but it certainly doesn't look very promising right now after the first game.
Damn near all of us were in agreement that it was time to see what Manziel had and for him to start. We saw enough of a spark in the Buffalo game to be excited about what he could bring to the table. We had been listening to all of these A&M honks (not necessarily you, but numerous other) telling us all season that the team would have won more games if only Johnny football was the QB.
He got his chance in the spotlight and took a giant shit in the middle of the field with the spotlight shining down on him. The problem this week has been the "fanboys" and the excuses and saying the most idiotic things like "he will get 200 starts for the Browns" and he's clearly the starter next year no matter what happens the rest of the season. It's the homos who are really only here because Manziel got drafted by the Browns that are making a lot of the people on this board hate the kid. I think all of understand that it's better for the Browns long term if Manziel is the answer at QB. Just like we hoped that Hoyer was the answer at QB. Just like we hoped that Weeden was the answer and McCoy and Delhomme and well..you get the picture.
He plays 2 more games like he did this past Sunday, he's not guaranteed shit for next season, even being in the league. There were plenty of analysts and scouts predraft saying that he didn't have what it takes in the NFL. There were plenty who also said he would be a superstar like Russell Wilson. The jury is still out but it certainly doesn't look very promising right now after the first game.
^yep.
AND imagine if the browns would have named him starter at the begining of the year. i doubt half of you manziel supporters would even still be around.
it's obvious the coaches knew all along the kid wasn't up to speed in all areas of being a NFL qb at this time BUT the suckage of hoyer prompted a change and the change was start the backup. well it looked last sunday as if the backup was overwhelmed by everything.
and don't give us this sad sack shit about picking on manziel. we blast any player that sucks. could be for one game, could be for the season. go back in time and read what was posted about weeden, about mccoy....i think the fans here can sniff out QB stink better than any other NFL fans because we've seen the worst of the worst. manziel sucked ass last week. let's see if he can pull it together against carolina. sorry to all you AGGIE fans but i highly doubt, AT THIS TIME, this kid will look even close to be a starter for any NFL team in the next 2 games. and it'll be a miracle if he doesn't get hurt because he looked like a little kid in a game of giants.
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I didn't say he'd only get 3 games to prove himself - he's only 22. But why would sucking monster cock for 3 games guarantee him anything for 2015? Because he's Johnny Manziel? Because he was a first round pick?
Obviously if he doesn't suck these last 2 it's a different story, but if I was the worst person at my job would they promote me?
Are you a brick wall by chance? Because that's what it feels like I'm talking to.
Our current sample size from pre season to last Sunday is a shitty QB. That's what we've seen, that's what the evaluations are going to be.
He's guaranteed something for 2015 because he is their first round pick at qb. Plenty of first round picks at qb suck for a few starts and in almost all cases they get many more- because they are first round qb picks. And yes the evaluation based on the data so far is that he played bad- but given that he's a first round qb pick the evaluation is still in the incredibly early stages.
This board doesn't want to hear this - but first 22 yo 1st round qbs are treated differently in these situations than undrafted fas, or older qbs, or journeyman qbs
I mean Jesus.....in the history of first round qbs over the last two decades the evidence is clear that almost all, no matter how much they suck, get a decent amount of starts. JF, as all the ant JF posters, are so quick to point out, isn't special....and he likely isn't special in that regard either.
Brady Quinn is pretty much the only guy I can think of who really never got a consistent stretch, but even he got 4-5x as long eventually as some of you are acting like manziel will get. And for every 1 Quinn there are 30 Patrick Ramsey's(basically sucked as bad as JF did in 1 game for 0over 20 games)
And the most ridiculous angle to this is the hoyer angle - hoyer isn't going to be here next year. Don't you guys read espn and all the other sources? All these ridiculous scenarios whereby hoyer sticks around and challenges JF for the job again next year are silly. Nobody( not the browns and not hoyer) want to see that again.
This board doesn't want to hear this - but first 22 yo 1st round qbs are treated differently in these situations than undrafted fas, or older qbs, or journeyman qbs
I mean Jesus.....in the history of first round qbs over the last two decades the evidence is clear that almost all, no matter how much they suck, get a decent amount of starts. JF, as all the ant JF posters, are so quick to point out, isn't special....and he likely isn't special in that regard either.
Brady Quinn is pretty much the only guy I can think of who really never got a consistent stretch, but even he got 4-5x as long eventually as some of you are acting like manziel will get. And for every 1 Quinn there are 30 Patrick Ramsey's(basically sucked as bad as JF did in 1 game for 0over 20 games)
Quinn had starting stretches of 3 (in '08), and 3 and 6 (both in '09). His '09 "streaks" were separated by one game in which he played.
Patrick Ramsey's 1st game: 20/34 58.82% 268-yd 2-TD 0-INT 103.6 rating in a game he did not start.
Patrick Ramsey's 1st season: 117/227 51.5% 1539 9-TD 8-INT 71.8 rating in 5 starts + game 1 + pieces of three others
Patrick Ramsey's 2nd season: 179/337 53.1% 2166 14-TD 9-INT 75.8 in 11 consecutive starts.
Your memory sucks...
A ton of history with these situations(as well as what the browns situation at qb will be next season) makes it pretty clear JF is the starter next year.
I'm the one who post after post in various threads has gone over all the first round qbs in the past who suck in their first several starts and get gobs more starts...that's pretty objective. Much more objective than just declaring JF has 2-3 starts to show something or else.....when there is no basis for that.
Then it should be easy to provide a link to those posts... or simply copy and paste the data.
I'll wait...
If what you say is true.....no, he's not going to fire himself. He's going to displace blame.....to mike Pettine(among others).
And history shall blame you...
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People have to understand the anger and disappointment too. We were in the thick of a playoff run, needed our shiny new first round QB to show some flash, anything, and we got nothing. Nothing at all except the worst performance we've ever seen from a starting QB in Cleveland since the return. (Maybe Spergon Wynn but I missed that dismal performance.)
If we'd lost but saw even one single brillant drive or some of the skills that JM is supposed to have (like extending plays, escapability, instead of getting sacked by a defender's single hand while he lay on the ground) there would be more positive talk.
I'm sure 95% of the Browns fans here want to see him do a 180 this Sunday. Hell even a 90...or a 45... But right now we have one game that was so bad it's unbelievable.
I also don't know how his situation was tougher than anyone else. Jags threw Bortles in almost immediately, he's thrown shitloads of INTs, and now he's dealing with an injury serious enough to question if he'll play this week. Manziel had 13 weeks to watch, learn, and prepare. That's nearly unheard of to have that much time for QBs in today's NFL. Sorry but I don't give him any leeway for playing SO poorly.
All that being said, I sincerely hope he succeeds here, in the biggest way possible. I don't want to have to keep hanging my hat on a new QB every year.
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All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
Yup... anger. As for the 95%... had a very interesting convo at a Christmas party Saturday with a 5th year Senior at TAMU. Based on that discussion it would seem that no where near "95% of A&M fans" even give two shits about Manziel let alone what the Browns might do to him.
Longtime lurker...
Now that's how to make an entrance. Welcome to the light...
As a longtime lurker, you also surely know that most of the Manziel rejection rage is aimed at his fans, and not him. Perhaps at season's end we'll have the 3-game data to see where JM falls on your list.
Couple questions:
Do you happen to know where those 3-game stretches fell within the season?
Were they consecutive starts?
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All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season..Dumbest thing Ive ever heard. "unfair" to a back up to play him? Aren't most chomping at the bit for an opportunity?
And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance....A superstar needs GREAT performances from those around him just to look decent?
No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts.
Yes, JF let us and himself down...< do you understand this concept? He let us down, but we're bad for saying it?
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop...Um, news flash....Cleveland fans dont "send" players anywhere....including the shit can...
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted....I guarantee you are wrong and that 95% of them moved on a year ago....like we've done here with the hundreds of Ohio State players that got drafted......
The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland"....Too bad your boy didn't feel the same. My memory is that HE texted Jimmy begging him to "come get me".....
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@junkyard-dawg said:
Yet since being drafted we've had to listen to his queer entourage on every Forum and in the Media suck his dick as a Savior. He isn't and in the process these morons helped to alienate and mentally fuck over the guy WITH the high ceiling and potential on this team.
Been there, seen this process play out once before and am sick of it.
Really good take.
For those saying : playing him will ruin him(what??!!??) or the fans bitching will ruin him(what?!?)....
Maybe the real truth is the manzielots created such a HIGH LEVEL of expectation that he could never meet it now.
And instead of blaming the fans, coaches, Cleveland, the owner, the O line and the defense for Johnnys bad play.....they ought to consider the lofty expectations they created as the primary reason everyone feels so let down
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Its not as if we want JFF to fail or think it's funny
It's like when I see an old lady fall down on the sidewalk. Sure, I want to laugh....
But, then I think - what if there was an ant on the sidewalk and he got squished?
Not so funny now, is it?
Its not as if we want JFF to fail or think it's funny
It's like when I see an old lady fall down on the sidewalk. Sure, I want to laugh....
But, then I think - what if there was an ant on the sidewalk and he got squished?
Not so funny now, is it?
Lol! I always enjoy your thought provoking posts.
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You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
Yup... anger. As for the 95%... had a very interesting convo at a Christmas party Saturday with a 5th year Senior at TAMU. Based on that discussion it would seem that no where near "95% of A&M fans" even give two shits about Manziel let alone what the Browns might do to him.
Longtime lurker...
Now that's how to make an entrance. Welcome to the light...
As a longtime lurker, you also surely know that most of the Manziel rejection rage is aimed at his fans, and not him. Perhaps at season's end we'll have the 3-game data to see where JM falls on your list.
Couple questions:
Do you happen to know where those 3-game stretches fell within the season?
Were they consecutive starts?
Now that's how to make an entrance. Welcome to the light...
As a longtime lurker, you also surely know that most of the Manziel rejection rage is aimed at his fans, and not him. Perhaps at season's end we'll have the 3-game data to see where JM falls on your list.
Couple questions:
Do you happen to know where those 3-game stretches fell within the season?
Were they consecutive starts?
I appreciate the welcome.
Those three games stretches varied with regards to what point in the season they came in, but once they began they were almost universally consecutive starting experiences. From my anecdotal observation, first-round quarterbacks typically grant their coaching staff the luxury of more time and patience from ownership. As a coach, starting a rookie quarterback gives you a ready-made excuse to ownership and the fanbase as they endure mounting losses ("he's only going to get better"), therefore I understand it to be almost an act of self-preservation to keep starting the rookie for an extended audition.
It's not out of convenience that I liken Manziel's situation most closely to that of Eli Manning in 2004. The Giants were 5-4 with Kurt Warner having put up solid numbers but anyone more than a casual observer knew that while the Giants were winning with Kurt, there clearly was a ceiling with Warner that fell short of the ultimate goal for any franchise, a Super Bowl. I had a similar feeling with this season's Browns and Hoyer (*ducks for cover*). So Coughlin made the switch to Manning and Eli rewarded him with horrible performances through his first season and well into his second season. Coughlin effectively destroyed his chances of making the playoffs by turning over the reigns to Eli but he wasnt operating the team within a one game or even a one season vacuum, rather he was trying to set the foundation for more sustainable long-term success. It worked for the Giants, its failed for other franchises.
Now, when I read posts from well respected posters such as Zombo I empathize and agree with what I think might be their main point, which is that Hoyer has given the Browns the best chance to win any game this season. Where I believe I differ is in the timeframe of my perspective. I dont view each game or even this season in a vacuum because I dont think that the ceiling of this season's Browns ever involved a Super Bowl. Rather, I take a longer holistic approach where I am willing to experience the growning pains of a young quarterback with the pedigree of Manziel, as embarrassingly lame as his debut was, for the hope that the Browns are building something that can culminate into something special and sustainable for a decade to come.
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Now that's how to make an entrance. Welcome to the light...
As a longtime lurker, you also surely know that most of the Manziel rejection rage is aimed at his fans, and not him. Perhaps at season's end we'll have the 3-game data to see where JM falls on your list.
Couple questions:
Do you happen to know where those 3-game stretches fell within the season?
Were they consecutive starts?
I appreciate the welcome.
Those three games stretches varied with regards to what point in the season they came in, but once they began they were almost universally consecutive starting experiences. From my anecdotal observation, first-round quarterbacks typically grant their coaching staff the luxury of more time and patience from ownership. As a coach, starting a rookie quarterback gives you a ready-made excuse to ownership and the fanbase as they endure mounting losses ("he's only going to get better"), therefore I understand it to be almost an act of self-preservation to keep starting the rookie for an extended audition.
It's not out of convenience that I liken Manziel's situation most closely to that of Eli Manning in 2004. The Giants were 5-4 with Kurt Warner having put up solid numbers but anyone more than a casual observer knew that while the Giants were winning with Kurt, there clearly was a ceiling with Warner that fell short of the ultimate goal for any franchise, a Super Bowl. I had a similar feeling with this season's Browns and Hoyer (*ducks for cover*). So Coughlin made the switch to Manning and Eli rewarded him with horrible performances through his first season and well into his second season. Coughlin effectively destroyed his chances of making the playoffs by turning over the reigns to Eli but he wasnt operating the team within a one game or even a one season vacuum, rather he was trying to set the foundation for more sustainable long-term success. It worked for the Giants, its failed for other franchises.
Now, when I read posts from well respected posters such as Zombo I empathize and agree with what I think might be their main point, which is that Hoyer has given the Browns the best chance to win any game this season. Where I believe I differ is in the timeframe of my perspective. I dont view each game or even this season in a vacuum because I dont think that the ceiling of this season's Browns ever involved a Super Bowl. Rather, I take a longer holistic approach where I am willing to experience the growning pains of a young quarterback with the pedigree of Manziel, as embarrassingly lame as his debut was, for the hope that the Browns are building something that can culminate into something special and sustainable for a decade to come.
Now, when I read posts from well respected posters such as Zombo I empathize and agree with what I think might be their main point, which is that Hoyer has given the Browns the best chance to win any game this season. Where I believe I differ is in the timeframe of my perspective. I dont view each game or even this season in a vacuum because I dont think that the ceiling of this season's Browns ever involved a Super Bowl. Rather, I take a longer holistic approach where I am willing to experience the growning pains of a young quarterback with the pedigree of Manziel, as embarrassingly lame as his debut was, for the hope that the Browns are building something that can culminate into something special and sustainable for a decade to come.
First...don't say Zombo is a "respected poster" it goes to his head and that's already big enough.
Seriously though... Therein lies the problem, is Manziel the next Eli Manning? Pretty good QB who can get hot from time to time and lead a super bowl run? Or is he the next Troy Smith or Danny Wuerffel, great college QB who can't play at the NFL level?
The biggest issue with Sunday was not only that he played like horse shit, he didn't show one thing that looked like he has the ability to be a NFL QB. He looked like a high school kid trying to survive in the NFL. Maybe that's just one game or maybe not but I think we'll have a pretty good idea after the next 2 games.
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Now, when I read posts from well respected posters such as Zombo I empathize and agree with what I think might be their main point, which is that Hoyer has given the Browns the best chance to win any game this season. Where I believe I differ is in the timeframe of my perspective. I dont view each game or even this season in a vacuum because I dont think that the ceiling of this season's Browns ever involved a Super Bowl. Rather, I take a longer holistic approach where I am willing to experience the growning pains of a young quarterback with the pedigree of Manziel, as embarrassingly lame as his debut was, for the hope that the Browns are building something that can culminate into something special and sustainable for a decade to come.
First...don't say Zombo is a "respected poster" it goes to his head and that's already big enough.
Seriously though... Therein lies the problem, is Manziel the next Eli Manning? Pretty good QB who can get hot from time to time and lead a super bowl run? Or is he the next Troy Smith or Danny Wuerffel, great college QB who can't play at the NFL level?
The biggest issue with Sunday was not only that he played like horse shit, he didn't show one thing that looked like he has the ability to be a NFL QB. He looked like a high school kid trying to survive in the NFL. Maybe that's just one game or maybe not but I think we'll have a pretty good idea after the next 2 games.
First...don't say Zombo is a "respected poster" it goes to his head and that's already big enough.
Seriously though... Therein lies the problem, is Manziel the next Eli Manning? Pretty good QB who can get hot from time to time and lead a super bowl run? Or is he the next Troy Smith or Danny Wuerffel, great college QB who can't play at the NFL level?
The biggest issue with Sunday was not only that he played like horse shit, he didn't show one thing that looked like he has the ability to be a NFL QB. He looked like a high school kid trying to survive in the NFL. Maybe that's just one game or maybe not but I think we'll have a pretty good idea after the next 2 games.
The answer to your question, or the ability to answer it really is the Holy Grail for anyone associated with a professional football franchise. How can you seperate those that can master the learning curve and go from bad-to-great from those that never progress? I think we'd all agree that collegiate production is next to worthless as an indicator without proper context. Eli played in a pro-style offense at Ole Miss and left college after his senior year (not including redshirt). Clearly we would imagine that this would have better prepared him for the NFL but he still struggled mightily. Stafford declared early but played in a pro-style offense. Does this reflect better on Manziel having struggled, as a younger rookie inexperienced in an NFL offense? Who the heck knows.
In my opinion the real answer to your question of whether Manziel, or any rookie QB for that matter, can be the next Manning or Brees or whomever after suffering from poor performance early on is if they are intelligent enough, committed enough, and have the physical ability to learn and make the necessary adjustments throughout their career. I dont question Manziel's intelligence (wonderlick, etc), I have slight concerns regarding his physical ability (height), and I'm cautiously optomistic that the perception of his off-field committment doesn't match his true committment to getting better. Will that demonstrate itself over the next week weeks? Hopefully to the coaching staff it will, but it may not translate directly to what we see on Sundays just yet. I wouldn't feel comfortable writing off a 22 year old QB with a nice pedigree after 3 games but I think I'd have a much better indication on their ability to improve after an off-season of prepartion as starter and a few games. But, alas....I dont get paid to make those decisions
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First...don't say Zombo is a "respected poster" it goes to his head and that's already big enough.
Seriously though... Therein lies the problem, is Manziel the next Eli Manning? Pretty good QB who can get hot from time to time and lead a super bowl run? Or is he the next Troy Smith or Danny Wuerffel, great college QB who can't play at the NFL level?
The biggest issue with Sunday was not only that he played like horse shit, he didn't show one thing that looked like he has the ability to be a NFL QB. He looked like a high school kid trying to survive in the NFL. Maybe that's just one game or maybe not but I think we'll have a pretty good idea after the next 2 games.
The answer to your question, or the ability to answer it really is the Holy Grail for anyone associated with a professional football franchise. How can you seperate those that can master the learning curve and go from bad-to-great from those that never progress? I think we'd all agree that collegiate production is next to worthless as an indicator without proper context. Eli played in a pro-style offense at Ole Miss and left college after his senior year (not including redshirt). Clearly we would imagine that this would have better prepared him for the NFL but he still struggled mightily. Stafford declared early but played in a pro-style offense. Does this reflect better on Manziel having struggled, as a younger rookie inexperienced in an NFL offense? Who the heck knows.
In my opinion the real answer to your question of whether Manziel, or any rookie QB for that matter, can be the next Manning or Brees or whomever after suffering from poor performance early on is if they are intelligent enough, committed enough, and have the physical ability to learn and make the necessary adjustments throughout their career. I dont question Manziel's intelligence (wonderlick, etc), I have slight concerns regarding his physical ability (height), and I'm cautiously optomistic that the perception of his off-field committment doesn't match his true committment to getting better. Will that demonstrate itself over the next week weeks? Hopefully to the coaching staff it will, but it may not translate directly to what we see on Sundays just yet. I wouldn't feel comfortable writing off a 22 year old QB with a nice pedigree after 3 games but I think I'd have a much better indication on their ability to improve after an off-season of prepartion as starter and a few games. But, alas....I dont get paid to make those decisions
In my opinion the real answer to your question of whether Manziel, or any rookie QB for that matter, can be the next Manning or Brees or whomever after suffering from poor performance early on is if they are intelligent enough, committed enough, and have the physical ability to learn and make the necessary adjustments throughout their career. I dont question Manziel's intelligence (wonderlick, etc), I have slight concerns regarding his physical ability (height), and I'm cautiously optomistic that the perception of his off-field committment doesn't match his true committment to getting better. Will that demonstrate itself over the next week weeks? Hopefully to the coaching staff it will, but it may not translate directly to what we see on Sundays just yet. I wouldn't feel comfortable writing off a 22 year old QB with a nice pedigree after 3 games but I think I'd have a much better indication on their ability to improve after an off-season of prepartion as starter and a few games. But, alas....I dont get paid to make those decisions
I'd feel better about the chances of him improving to the Eli Manning level (which if he can get to that level would be better than anything we've seen in Cleveland in years) if he could show just a few flashes of being able to compete at this level. He showed nothing at all on Sunday. Hopefully that was an aberration and we'll see how he recovers this week. Another performance like this past one and it doesn't bode well for his future in the NFL.
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All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
Ag, Browns fans have never just banged on one player- a lot of corners have trashed anyone who isn't playing well- (or coaching well) Fer instance Joe Haden was getting slammed for a poor start, and I'd say he's a mortal lock to make the Pro Bowl again this year. People have been calling Justin Gilbert a bust all year, even though he was drafted higher than Manziel. I haven't forgotten some corners wanted Pettine fired before the regular season even started. .
OK, the Bengals game the defense gave him zero support- the Stripers ripped off a 7 minute TD drive and the Browns were down 7-0 before Manziel even touched the ball. So what does JF do? Went 3 and out. Care to comment on how horrible those two interceptions looked? Jay Cutler bad, and Cutler is getting reamed in Chicago big time. Those were 14 point swings. I can't say if Manziel was responsible for the line calls, but if he had a lick of sense he should have been able to see there was an unblocked defender that- predictably knocked him on his ass with no resistance. Three first downs? Could Connor Shaw or even Brandon Weeden have done any worse?
As far as not giving him every chance to succeed, are we supposed to wait until Alex Mack comes back next year, and the Browns draft Amari Cooper? Johnny had the same starting lineup as Hoyer- so how is that unfair? Hoyer played poorly the last couple games- and Manziel played worse. It's his first start- and as I said, he gets cut some slack for that- but OTOH, he's not above getting some severe criticism for a horrible performance.
On meditation- being an Ohio State homer, I think Brian Billick's assessment\comparison rings true. Brian compared Manziel to Troy Smith. Exact same size. Both won Heismans. Both crazy athletic, with good but not great arms. Both surrounded with exceptional talent in college.
Well Ag, if 95% of Texas fans didn't want Manziel to get drafted by Cleveland, there was a raft of Browns fans who didn't want him either. And for the record- count me in that group. We'll see how this plays out over time. Yes I get the anti-JF venom that's getting spewed currently- I hope it's proven wrong. Finally, as several others have mentioned- the more zealous Manzealots have brought this shit storm on themselves by claiming Johnny was SO much better than Hoyer- as one goober (who hasn't been seen since) stated around 5 TDs and 100 rushing yards against the Bengals. Take that as being an enormous helping of Crow served up for their unrealistic expectations.
Longtime lurker...
It seems as though posters are arguing against one of two extremes when in reality the majority of individuals are more moderate in their respective positions.
Yeah- stick around- we need more posters like yourself.
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All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
Ag, Browns fans have never just banged on one player- a lot of corners have trashed anyone who isn't playing well- (or coaching well) Fer instance Joe Haden was getting slammed for a poor start, and I'd say he's a mortal lock to make the Pro Bowl again this year. People have been calling Justin Gilbert a bust all year, even though he was drafted higher than Manziel. I haven't forgotten some corners wanted Pettine fired before the regular season even started. .
OK, the Bengals game the defense gave him zero support- the Stripers ripped off a 7 minute TD drive and the Browns were down 7-0 before Manziel even touched the ball. So what does JF do? Went 3 and out. Care to comment on how horrible those two interceptions looked? Jay Cutler bad, and Cutler is getting reamed in Chicago big time. Those were 14 point swings. I can't say if Manziel was responsible for the line calls, but if he had a lick of sense he should have been able to see there was an unblocked defender that- predictably knocked him on his ass with no resistance. Three first downs? Could Connor Shaw or even Brandon Weeden have done any worse?
As far as not giving him every chance to succeed, are we supposed to wait until Alex Mack comes back next year, and the Browns draft Amari Cooper? Johnny had the same starting lineup as Hoyer- so how is that unfair? Hoyer played poorly the last couple games- and Manziel played worse. It's his first start- and as I said, he gets cut some slack for that- but OTOH, he's not above getting some severe criticism for a horrible performance.
On meditation- being an Ohio State homer, I think Brian Billick's assessment\comparison rings true. Brian compared Manziel to Troy Smith. Exact same size. Both won Heismans. Both crazy athletic, with good but not great arms. Both surrounded with exceptional talent in college.
Well Ag, if 95% of Texas fans didn't want Manziel to get drafted by Cleveland, there was a raft of Browns fans who didn't want him either. And for the record- count me in that group. We'll see how this plays out over time. Yes I get the anti-JF venom that's getting spewed currently- I hope it's proven wrong. Finally, as several others have mentioned- the more zealous Manzealots have brought this shit storm on themselves by claiming Johnny was SO much better than Hoyer- as one goober (who hasn't been seen since) stated around 5 TDs and 100 rushing yards against the Bengals. Take that as being an enormous helping of Crow served up for their unrealistic expectations.
Longtime lurker...
It seems as though posters are arguing against one of two extremes when in reality the majority of individuals are more moderate in their respective positions.
Yeah- stick around- we need more posters like yourself.
On meditation- being an Ohio State homer, I think Brian Billick's assessment\comparison rings true. Brian compared Manziel to Troy Smith. Exact same size. Both won Heismans. Both crazy athletic, with good but not great arms. Both surrounded with exceptional talent in college.
Well Ag, if 95% of Texas fans didn't want Manziel to get drafted by Cleveland, there was a raft of Browns fans who didn't want him either. And for the record- count me in that group. We'll see how this plays out over time. Yes I get the anti-JF venom that's getting spewed currently- I hope it's proven wrong. Finally, as several others have mentioned- the more zealous Manzealots have brought this shit storm on themselves by claiming Johnny was SO much better than Hoyer- as one goober (who hasn't been seen since) stated around 5 TDs and 100 rushing yards against the Bengals. Take that as being an enormous helping of Crow served up for their unrealistic expectations.
Yeah- stick around- we need more posters like yourself.
This is where I will actually disagree with you. Troy checked in slightly bigger than Manziel did in height and weight. Troy was also not "crazy athletic" by any stretch. In fact Todd Boeckman ran a fast 40 time than Troy did. Smith was a passer first, mobile second. He fell in love with being in the pocket (a key ingredient which cost us against Florida) that did not have anywhere near the supporting cast Johnny was blessed with. As it stands Manziel would be working with 3 1st round picks on the Oline, a future Pro bowl receiver and possible future Pro Bowl TE on top of having Swope (whom was a monster in college) While this is no knock on Ginn, Gonzo, Robo - the only receiver to have sustained success at the NFL level was Santonio.
Both style of their games couldn't be further apart. Size is about the only thing they're comparable. And Jesus do I wish we would have drafted Troy over Quinn. (Not in the 1st though)
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