Hortons defense was better than this...
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Dquell Jackson is a good, slightly above average Linebacker. Not much more.
I would say he's better than slightly above avg but it doesn't matter, we needed to keep continuity there and draft his replacement. The difference between him and Dansby imo is that he knew it was time to teach his replacement...Dansby I'm not so sure understands where he is in his career. In any case this topic isn't about DQ...it's about the how's and why's that Hortons defense was better than Pettine's. I don't know which is why I want to start this discussion. For the life of me I couldn't see this year what we were doing so drastically different on the front 7 that we regressed years in the run defense. How did we in one year convert from Shurm's 4-3 to a 3-4 and get better at almost every stat? This year we kept the same front but had a really bad regression at most stats.
The only reason I brought up the LB'ers is that they are the only personnel variables from last years front 7.
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Pettine's scheme is secondary heavy and naturally susceptible to the run, evidenced by his time in Buffalo, where he had a stronger DL (something like 30+ sacks from three guys on it). Our DL this year has been killed by injuries - 11 games missed by John Hughes, arguably our best run stopper; 12 games missed by Armonty Bryant; 11 games missed by Phil Taylor. That left us with Rubin (3 games missed), D. Bryant (1), Kitchen (4) and Winn (3). So of our much lauded DL depth, a total of 45 games were missed. When you have, shall we say "heavier" guys, you kind of need to rotate them a little bit.
I don't see us having a top-5 rush defense next year, but top half, with everyone fit, plus our secondary playing as well as it did this year should see a big overall improvement.
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ok so could someone explain why Pettine's scheme is more susceptible to the run?
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I like DQ a lot, but to put him in elite status is laughable. I think ILB got an upgrade, with Dansby, Roberton's best year so far, and Kirksey having a solid rookie year.
Sure we don't have an Urlacher, Kuechly, Clay Matthews type of guy - which would help I imagine.
At this point I pin the run D, which was good in short stretches, on the 2nd/3rd string D-line. They played absymally pretty consistently.
Lets just get Suh, Bosa, and an elite-ILB type in Pettine's scheme and we'll be happy
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Sigh....This has been discussed all year long......D line is the reason our run defense failed.....it's not Dansby or Jackson....
If you watched Detroit, you saw their D line stuffing the run....take away their first 3 starters and see how great they are then....
Some D's focus on run first and some focus on pass first. This is a passing league and our D is built to defense that first. And, so far, the build is going well.
If we were built to stop the run, there would be a thread here about why we can't stop the pass and how we shoulda drafted a CB or something.....
And, in the end, we are one of the best defenses, against scoring, in the league....isn't that what really matters???....
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Sigh....This has been discussed all year long......D line is the reason our run defense failed.....it's not Dansby or Jackson....
If you watched Detroit, you saw their D line stuffing the run....take away their first 3 starters and see how great they are then....
Some D's focus on run first and some focus on pass first. This is a passing league and our D is built to defense that first. And, so far, the build is going well.
If we were built to stop the run, there would be a thread here about why we can't stop the pass and how we shoulda drafted a CB or something.....
And, in the end, we are one of the best defenses, against scoring, in the league....isn't that what really matters???....
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Sigh....This has been discussed all year long......D line is the reason our run defense failed.....it's not Dansby or Jackson....
If you watched Detroit, you saw their D line stuffing the run....take away their first 3 starters and see how great they are then....
Some D's focus on run first and some focus on pass first. This is a passing league and our D is built to defense that first. And, so far, the build is going well.
If we were built to stop the run, there would be a thread here about why we can't stop the pass and how we shoulda drafted a CB or something.....
And, in the end, we are one of the best defenses, against scoring, in the league....isn't that what really matters???....
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Seems to me that last year's defense gave up some leads as they got winded near the end of the game. Are my recollections faulty?
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Seems to me that last year's defense gave up some leads as they got winded near the end of the game. Are my recollections faulty?
WSS
Seems to me that last year's defense gave up some leads as they got winded near the end of the game. Are my recollections faulty?
WSS
Does it seem this year's team didn't? Because it feels like they did.
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I believe that last year we were tied or leading at half time in like 10 or more games and we lost every single one of them. This years team didn't do that, in fact it was quite the opposite of the team coming from behind in quite a few games rather than being outplayed the entire 2nd half.
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Seems to me that last year's defense gave up some leads as they got winded near the end of the game. Are my recollections faulty?
WSS
Seems to me that last year's defense gave up some leads as they got winded near the end of the game. Are my recollections faulty?
WSS
You are 100% correct...last years team(2013) gave up several games in the second half, while this years team was actually better in the second half of games....
Bottom line......
Pettines red zone defense was 5th in the league
Hortons red zone defense was 30th in the league
Those are facts....though Cleve4life is really worried about yards, stats and sacks....not points....
Statistically....we were better in the second half this year....scored more points and gave up fewer points
And if you break it down by quarters.....we were the #2 defense in the league for the 1st & 3rd qtrs......and the #22 defense for the 2nd & 4th qtrs......which means we come out strong, then lose it as the game goes on....i suspect a better offense would help this, as the D plays great when rested...but I think the O could do more to keep them off the field and prevent the late half wear downs....
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Pettine is known for having bad run defenses. Which will kill you in December and the Playoffs. His defense is based on the offense having g a good lead. That is about it, if Pettine offense cannot score poi ts then his defense will suffer b.c they suck against the run.
One of the reasons I was scared Pettine was coming here b.c this team needs an offensive spark.
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Sigh....This has been discussed all year long......D line is the reason our run defense failed.....it's not Dansby or Jackson....
If you watched Detroit, you saw their D line stuffing the run....take away their first 3 starters and see how great they are then....
Some D's focus on run first and some focus on pass first. This is a passing league and our D is built to defense that first. And, so far, the build is going well.
If we were built to stop the run, there would be a thread here about why we can't stop the pass and how we shoulda drafted a CB or something.....
And, in the end, we are one of the best defenses, against scoring, in the league....isn't that what really matters???....
Sigh....This has been discussed all year long......D line is the reason our run defense failed.....it's not Dansby or Jackson....
If you watched Detroit, you saw their D line stuffing the run....take away their first 3 starters and see how great they are then....
Some D's focus on run first and some focus on pass first. This is a passing league and our D is built to defense that first. And, so far, the build is going well.
If we were built to stop the run, there would be a thread here about why we can't stop the pass and how we shoulda drafted a CB or something.....
And, in the end, we are one of the best defenses, against scoring, in the league....isn't that what really matters???....
The guy has been told that at least 3 times but he still goes back to the LBs and ignores the d-line injuries.
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Dquell Jackson is a good, slightly above average Linebacker. Not much more.
I would say he's better than slightly above avg but it doesn't matter, we needed to keep continuity there and draft his replacement. The difference between him and Dansby imo is that he knew it was time to teach his replacement...Dansby I'm not so sure understands where he is in his career. In any case this topic isn't about DQ...it's about the how's and why's that Hortons defense was better than Pettine's. I don't know which is why I want to start this discussion. For the life of me I couldn't see this year what we were doing so drastically different on the front 7 that we regressed years in the run defense. How did we in one year convert from Shurm's 4-3 to a 3-4 and get better at almost every stat? This year we kept the same front but had a really bad regression at most stats.
The only reason I brought up the LB'ers is that they are the only personnel variables from last years front 7.
.it's about the how's and why's that Hortons defense was better than Pettine's.
So, even though we allowed almost 100 FEWER points this year, you say this defense is worse?.....because we gave up more yards on the ground?
His defense is based on the offense having g a good lead.
One of the reasons I was scared Pettine was coming here b.c this team needs an offensive spark.
His defense is based upon keeping the opponent underneath and not allowing long/big plays. Which we were VERY successful at. It is also predicated on allowing some yardage, but NOT allowing scores....which we were also very successful at...
So, Id ask you the same....how does 100 less points allowed scare you?
The guy has been told that at least 3 times but he still goes back to the LBs and ignores the d-line injuries.
Yeah...on another thread he's saying Josh Bynes is the reason for Detroits success.....a non starting back up with only 20 tackles....hahahaha.....yeah, he's the reason all right....
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Sigh....This has been discussed all year long......D line is the reason our run defense failed.....it's not Dansby or Jackson....
If you watched Detroit, you saw their D line stuffing the run....take away their first 3 starters and see how great they are then....
Some D's focus on run first and some focus on pass first. This is a passing league and our D is built to defense that first. And, so far, the build is going well.
If we were built to stop the run, there would be a thread here about why we can't stop the pass and how we shoulda drafted a CB or something.....
And, in the end, we are one of the best defenses, against scoring, in the league....isn't that what really matters???....
-
Sigh....This has been discussed all year long......D line is the reason our run defense failed.....it's not Dansby or Jackson....
If you watched Detroit, you saw their D line stuffing the run....take away their first 3 starters and see how great they are then....
Some D's focus on run first and some focus on pass first. This is a passing league and our D is built to defense that first. And, so far, the build is going well.
If we were built to stop the run, there would be a thread here about why we can't stop the pass and how we shoulda drafted a CB or something.....
And, in the end, we are one of the best defenses, against scoring, in the league....isn't that what really matters???....
The guy has been told that at least 3 times but he still goes back to the LBs and ignores the d-line injuries.
The guy has been told that at least 3 times but he still goes back to the LBs and ignores the d-line injuries.
because I know what I'm looking at when I see LB'ers out of position and overpursuing constantly. I'm sorry that I know football on a slightly deeper level than most of you. For people who've played, and played on Defense...we all know that run stopping at the end is on the LB'ers. Is it "all" on the LB'ers? Of course not, I never said it was. So I bring up the the point that our d line is exactly the same as it was last year and yet we regressed in our run defense? Why? Scheme? Ok, I'm sure that's part of it. Personnel wise what are the variables genius? It's the LB'ers. Am I ignoring the D line injuries? No...you can argue that towards the end of the year they had a significant impact on our run defense. That argument however starts to pale when you see that we were just as bad at the beginning as at the end. No change.
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And it was a 1st year defense too so you can't say it had more time. We went from 15th against the run to dead last. We stayed exactly the same in terms of passing defense, 8th. But sack numbers were way down 9 this year. The only real change front 7 wise was the LB'ers....so I'm sorry but this is proof you give a guy like DQ what he wanted. I don't mind the Kirksey draft but would have preferred Mack to learn ILB'er from DQ. You can't gut your continuity at certain positions because those guys teach the next class things that just the coaches can't.
The only real change front 7 wise was the LB'ers....so I'm sorry but this is proof you give a guy like DQ what he wanted.
ok...the only change is the LB........coach and scheme come later...
In any case this topic isn't about DQ...it's about the how's and why's that Hortons defense was better than Pettine's.
This year we kept the same front but had a really bad regression at most stats.
But, in any case, it's not about the LB......it's Hortons scheme VS Pettines scheme.....Im following ya.....
And our "stats" are worse....still following....check!.......well, except that pesky scoring stat(dont like talking about this one, do ya?)....
ok so could someone explain why Pettine's scheme is more susceptible to the run?
Because thats what we're giving them by design.....take away the top, allow the underneath(it's been explained)(scheme, ya know?)
And add to that that our D line starters had double digit games missed....across the board(and not at the end, as you suggest)....and this has ALSO been explained a kabillion times....
because I know what I'm looking at ..... I'm sorry that I know football on a slightly deeper level than most of you.
Scheme? Ok, I'm sure that's part of it.
That argument however starts to pale when you see that we were just as bad at the beginning as at the end. No change.
hahahahaha.......(thats me laughing at the opening)......
Scheme...yes. And if that first line was true, then this wouldn't even be a discussion.
So....Mr. Deeper Level football guy....why did we allow 100 fewer points?......why was Hortons scoring defense 30th and Pettines 5th?
Would you rather have last years rushing stats and sack #'s....or this years points allowed?
Do you realize we only gave up 32 yards a game more in rushing?.....but 6 points less per game in scoring?
So, all your rants are about 32 yds/game............16 yds a half.................8 yds a quarter.........while being completely blind to the fact that we got better where it counts.....6 pts a game better....
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.it's about the how's and why's that Hortons defense was better than Pettine's.
So, even though we allowed almost 100 FEWER points this year, you say this defense is worse?.....because we gave up more yards on the ground?
His defense is based on the offense having g a good lead.
One of the reasons I was scared Pettine was coming here b.c this team needs an offensive spark.
His defense is based upon keeping the opponent underneath and not allowing long/big plays. Which we were VERY successful at. It is also predicated on allowing some yardage, but NOT allowing scores....which we were also very successful at...
So, Id ask you the same....how does 100 less points allowed scare you?
The guy has been told that at least 3 times but he still goes back to the LBs and ignores the d-line injuries.
Yeah...on another thread he's saying Josh Bynes is the reason for Detroits success.....a non starting back up with only 20 tackles....hahahaha.....yeah, he's the reason all right....
Yeah...on another thread he's saying Josh Bynes is the reason for Detroits success.....a non starting back up with only 20 tackles....hahahaha.....yeah, he's the reason all right....
oooo sorry I got the 2nd name wrong, it was Whitehead. You could have guessed that yourself though right? And are you telling me that Levy isn't a huge part of the Lions defense? If you are just sit there and watch football next weekend knowing that you don't have a clue how football works. Just watch the commercials and eat some food.
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The only real change front 7 wise was the LB'ers....so I'm sorry but this is proof you give a guy like DQ what he wanted.
ok...the only change is the LB........coach and scheme come later...
In any case this topic isn't about DQ...it's about the how's and why's that Hortons defense was better than Pettine's.
This year we kept the same front but had a really bad regression at most stats.
But, in any case, it's not about the LB......it's Hortons scheme VS Pettines scheme.....Im following ya.....
And our "stats" are worse....still following....check!.......well, except that pesky scoring stat(dont like talking about this one, do ya?)....
ok so could someone explain why Pettine's scheme is more susceptible to the run?
Because thats what we're giving them by design.....take away the top, allow the underneath(it's been explained)(scheme, ya know?)
And add to that that our D line starters had double digit games missed....across the board(and not at the end, as you suggest)....and this has ALSO been explained a kabillion times....
because I know what I'm looking at ..... I'm sorry that I know football on a slightly deeper level than most of you.
Scheme? Ok, I'm sure that's part of it.
That argument however starts to pale when you see that we were just as bad at the beginning as at the end. No change.
hahahahaha.......(thats me laughing at the opening)......
Scheme...yes. And if that first line was true, then this wouldn't even be a discussion.
So....Mr. Deeper Level football guy....why did we allow 100 fewer points?......why was Hortons scoring defense 30th and Pettines 5th?
Would you rather have last years rushing stats and sack #'s....or this years points allowed?
Do you realize we only gave up 32 yards a game more in rushing?.....but 6 points less per game in scoring?
So, all your rants are about 32 yds/game............16 yds a half.................8 yds a quarter.........while being completely blind to the fact that we got better where it counts.....6 pts a game better....
ok...the only change is the LB........coach and scheme come later...
But, in any case, it's not about the LB......it's Hortons scheme VS Pettines scheme.....Im following ya.....
And our "stats" are worse....still following....check!.......well, except that pesky scoring stat(dont like talking about this one, do ya?)....
Because thats what we're giving them by design.....take away the top, allow the underneath(it's been explained)(scheme, ya know?)
And add to that that our D line starters had double digit games missed....across the board(and not at the end, as you suggest)....and this has ALSO been explained a kabillion times....
hahahahaha.......(thats me laughing at the opening)......
Scheme...yes. And if that first line was true, then this wouldn't even be a discussion.
So....Mr. Deeper Level football guy....why did we allow 100 fewer points?......why was Hortons scoring defense 30th and Pettines 5th?
Would you rather have last years rushing stats and sack #'s....or this years points allowed?
Do you realize we only gave up 32 yards a game more in rushing?.....but 6 points less per game in scoring?
So, all your rants are about 32 yds/game............16 yds a half.................8 yds a quarter.........while being completely blind to the fact that we got better where it counts.....6 pts a game better....
The offensive production at the beginning of the year had no impact? Really? Cause even people here understood how bad some of those games would have turned out if teams had stuck with the run. Also the secondary doesn't factor into scoring defense? I fully acknowledged that our secondary kept us in the hunt this season. Without their production we would have been talking draft by game 5. And if you're saying we're giving the opposing teams 150 yds per game "by design"...and you're ok with tha?. Like I said just sit there and watch the games but stfu when it comes to football talk.
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