The G.O.A.T.

The Gipper

@playgroundlegend said:

Brady is the GOAT.. no questions asked..

You need the stats.. AND the rings..

and he has both.

Its really between him and Peyton.. they both put up over 50 TDs in a season, but Brady has the rings

Their stats are enhanced by the current rules of the game. You can't breathe on a receiver hardly, and you can't breathe on a QB.

Their stats would certainly NOT be the same as they are today if they had to play by the rules in place in the 60s/70s. I don't know about the titles....it may have been more difficult, who knows.

That is why those who say you can hardly compare eras are perfectly correct.

The one thing you can look at is "how dominant was that person during his own particular era".

A lot of things are different between eras....

You have to look at each era so, here are the "dominant QBs" in each era in terms of getting their teams to championship games and playoff games. For prior to the mid-60s you had just the NFL title game and AAFC/AFL title game. Since them I am looking at AFC/NFC title games and Super Bowls:

Who dominated the 1930s? Arnie Herber and Ed Danowski

Who dominated the 1940s? Sid Luckman, Sammy Baugh, Bob Waterfield and Otto Graham later

Who dominated the 1950s? Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, Bobby Layne, YA Tittle

Who dominated the 1960s? Bart Starr, Unitas, Len Dawson (AFL guys like Blanda, Kemp, Namath)

Who dominated the 1970s? Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Bob Griese, Ken Stabler, Fran Tarkenton

Who dominated the 1980? Joe Montana, John Elway, Bernie Kosar, Dan Marino

Who dominated the 1990s? Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Jim Kelly, John Elway, Brett Favre

Who dominated the 2000s? Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Donovan McNabb, Ben Roethlisberger, Kurt Warner

2010s so far? Brady, Joe Flacco, Russel Wilson, Aaron Rodgers

So what you may do is take each era and pick the one guy from there that was the cream of the crop....and try to narrow it down from there. I have done that with my highlighted picks. One problem here is that some guys cross "eras" in terms of decades. Graham, Unitas, Elway...now maybe Brady had careers that spanned two decades. Sometimes a "decade" goes from a middle to a middle decade.

So, to me, it gets boiled down to like these guys:

Luckman

Graham

Unitas

Starr

Bradshaw

Montana

Elway

Brady

(Sorry Peyton/Favre lovers....if they can't dominate their decades then they can't be the GOAT)

Mudfly

McNabb, Flacco, Wilson???.....but no Drew Brees?

Curious, what is the criteria for "dominant"....team victories or QB stats?

The Gipper

Zombo said:

Last year, this very week, the talk was that if Manning won he would be cemented as the Greatest of All Time.

Seattle crushed him.

So let's play the game first. If the Patriots win because of Brady and he is MVP then I revisit this.

Peyton Manning is the greatest QB I have ever watched. I never watched Otto Graham. I rate Montana over Brady.

Let's see what happens Sunday. For you ring counters, Wilson moves alongside Eli, Ben, Griese, Plunkett, Staubach, Elway and Starr with a win ... and one behind Brady.

He's 26 and plays with the best defense in the league.

Zombo

Can't count? Starr has 5 rings. Or don't you count those before the Super Bowl. What are you? A Steeler fan?

The Gipper

@mudfly said:

McNabb, Flacco, Wilson???.....but no Drew Brees?

Curious, what is the criteria for "dominant"....team victories or QB stats?

For the post I made above, yes, I was listing postseason team accomplishment. No system to measure this is perfect.

Zombo

@the-gipper said:
Can't count? Starr has 5 rings. Or don't you count those before the Super Bowl. What are you? A Steeler fan?

I meant super bowl ring counters, of which I don't prescribe to. It weighs into things, but it is a team game. If your running back fumbles or your safety falls down in coverage you are not automatically a worse QB than the other guy. I take everything into perspective, regular and post season.

Zombo

The Gipper

My argument for Brady being abovehis contemporaries is this: Brady IS a stats master.... the guys that are in the contemporary picture with him are Peyton, Favre, Brees, BR. He has the stats and the SB wins and appearances that they all have combined:

Brady stands in these positions all time for each of these stats:

Yards #5

Completions #5

Attempts #6

TDs #5

Rating #5

Yards per game #8

Completion % #12

Lowest Int. % #2

TD% #22 (note.....all of top ten here are pre-1975 QBs except Rodgers)

And note, the guys that are ahead of him in the all time career stats had/have played longer than he has:

Favre 20 years

Peyton 17 years

Marino 17 years

Only Brees at 12 years is on a better pace than he with some of these stats.

Brady has played 15 years. Give him 17-20 and he will lead most of those guys in the gross statistic department.

(Brees needs 5 SB appearances though to give him the same credence)

Also note: for Postseason play Brady is #1 in attempts/Completions/yards/TDs

The Gipper

Zombo said:

I meant super bowl ring counters, of which I don't prescribe to. It weighs into things, but it is a team game. If your running back fumbles or your safety falls down in coverage you are not automatically a worse QB than the other guy. I take everything into perspective, regular and post season.

Zombo

I know that is all true.

That goes back to the whole 1970 QB debate. If Mike Phipps had been taken #1 overall and the Browns had gotten Bradshaw at #3....would it have been Phipps who has 4 Super Bowl rings? Or would the Browns have had a much superior team in the 70s with just Bradshaw. Butterfly effect.

(but see my prior post....I say that Brady's regular season records are pretty every bit as good as Peyton's....and that there is no comparison when it comes to postseason).

The Gipper

All time best postseason winning record......4 or more games:

Bart Starr .900

Russell Wilson .857

Sid Luckman .833

Trent Dilfer .833

Jim Plunkett .800

Earl Morral .800

Jeff Hostetler .800

Otto Graham .750

Joe Theisman .750

Tommy Thompson .750

John Unitas .750

Terry Bradshaw .737

Troy Aikman .737

Eli Manning .727

Mark Rypien .714

Tom Brady .714

Other notables:

Joe Montana .696

Elway .667

BR .667

Staubach .647

Brees .545

Rodgers .545

Favre .500

Baugh .500

Marino .444

Kosar .429

Nelsen .400

Testaverde .400 (.500 as member of Browns 1-1)

Frank Ryan .400

Holcomb, McDonald, O'Connell, Plum, Strock, Sipe all .000 (each started and lost 1 playoff game for Browns)

Zombo

@the-gipper said:

I know that is all true.

That goes back to the whole 1970 QB debate. If Mike Phipps had been taken #1 overall and the Browns had gotten Bradshaw at #3....would it have been Phipps who has 4 Super Bowl rings? Or would the Browns have had a much superior team in the 70s with just Bradshaw. Butterfly effect.

In that scenario, neither wins rings. Phipps woulda sucked wherever and Bradshaw would have been Dan Pastorini without Swann, Stallworth, Harris, Kolb, webster and the Steel Curtain D.

(but see my prior post....I say that Brady's regular season records are pretty every bit as good as Peyton's....and that there is no comparison when it comes to postseason).

Not so fast, my friend, let me visit that.

The Gipper

Brady's Ball Sack said:

I can tell that you are either young, or haven't seem some of these players.

I venture that I am probably older than you.

Joe Namath was probably the best of them all, but suffered from injury at a time where there just wasn't the medical technology of today.

Joe Namath was outstanding.....for a very short while....but when we are assessing the GOAT....Joe's short run doesn't cut the mustard.

Nobody had that kind of arm strength in his day.

Bradshaw was pretty close.

Dan Fouts was a monster QB without a D, same for Marino.

But winning still has to count. Neither of them did that. And Marino is being passed in the stats race.

Staback was always clutch.

Probably has as good or better argument than anyone you mention. Started 4 Super Bowls, won 2....in a career that got started late due to military committment.

Lost 2 4 pt. games to Steelers in SBs. Had he won them.....HE would have been the standard that Joe Montana would have had to live up to.

It's hard to rate the best because their legacy is tied to a team sport.

Everybody has said that.

The Gipper

Zombo said:

In that scenario, neither wins rings. Phipps woulda sucked wherever and Bradshaw would have been Dan Pastorini without Swann, Stallworth, Harris, Kolb, webster and the Steel Curtain D.

Maybe. It is sometimes a case of right place right time (or wrong place right time)

Not so fast, my friend, let me visit that.

I did that for you above. Peyton will probably have a bit more ...but not by much...in terms of "volume" stats. Total yds/comps/atts/TDs etc. But he does have 2 years on Brady.....3 if you consider that Brady did not play much his rookie year, where Peyton was a full time starter.

Zombo

Brady stands in these positions all time for each of these stats:

Yards #5 Manning #2

Completions #5 Manning #2

Attempts #6 Manning #2

TDs #5 Manning #1

Rating #5 Manning #3

Yards per game #8 Manning #3

Completion % #12 Manning #4

Lowest Int. % #2 Manning #18

TD% #22 (note.....all of top ten here are pre-1975 QBs except Rodgers) Manning #14

The Gipper

Brady's Ball Sack said:

Modern stats?

I don't think the modern QB, protected in the bubble and comfort of todays league rules can be compared fairly.

When comparing the HITS that Montana, Aikman, and Elway et.al had endure, half of these guys playing today would have been out of the league years ago.

Yes....and even those guys were protected compared to the likes of the 70s/60s/50s etc. QBs.

That is why I said to look at dominance within an era, not cross era.

Zombo

Zombo said:

Brady stands in these positions all time for each of these stats:

Yards #5 Manning #2

Completions #5 Manning #2

Attempts #6 Manning #2

TDs #5 Manning #1

Rating #5 Manning #3

Yards per game #8 Manning #3

Completion % #12 Manning #4

Lowest Int. % #2 Manning #18

TD% #22 (note.....all of top ten here are pre-1975 QBs except Rodgers) Manning #14

Rating, Yards/game, completion % TD% ... not "volume stats"

The Gipper

Zombo said:

Brady stands in these positions all time for each of these stats:

Yards #5 Manning #2

Completions #5 Manning #2

Attempts #6 Manning #2

TDs #5 Manning #1

Rating #5 Manning #3

Yards per game #8 Manning #3

Completion % #12 Manning #4

Lowest Int. % #2 Manning #18

TD% #22 (note.....all of top ten here are pre-1975 QBs except Rodgers) Manning #14

If we did some yearly averages we could possibly compare. I still think Peyton's volume would be more.

Lets try this: Brady has had 13 years as a starter (he only threw 3 passes his rookie year)

Both Brady and Peyton lost a full year to injury (giving Peyton 16 years as a starter)

Peyton's average yards passing per year: 4355.69

Brady's: 4117.53

Peyton's average number of attempts per year: 565,56

Brady's: 551.36

Peyton has Yds. per att. avg of 7.7

Brady's is 7.4

Peyton has a Yds. per completion avg of 11.8

Brady's is 11.7

So they would probably be thisclose when all is said and done if given the same number of years/games.

The Gipper

Zombo said:

Rating, Yards/game, completion % TD% ... not "volume stats"

But they are still like both top 5 all time in those. (and I think ypg is a volume stat)

Championships and championship game appearance may be however.

Zombo

@the-gipper said:

If we did some yearly averages we could possibly compare. I still think Peyton's volume would be more.

Lets try this: Brady has had 13 years as a starter (he only threw 3 passes his rookie year)

Both Brady and Peyton lost a full year to injury (giving Peyton 16 years as a starter)

Peyton's average yards passing per year: 4355.69

Brady's: 4117.53

Peyton's average number of attempts per year: 565,56

Brady's: 551.36

Peyton has Yds. per att. avg of 7.7

Brady's is 7.4

Peyton has a Yds. per completion avg of 11.8

Brady's is 11.7

So they would probably be thisclose when all is said and done if given the same number of years/games.

You can just use per/game stats.

Here's a couple more "volume" stats though

Game winning drives: Manning #1 with 52, Brady #4 with 45

Comebacks: Manning #1 with 41, Brady #4 with 34

and one more key "prorated" stat:

Career sacked %: Manning #1 with 3.07%, Brady #14 with 4.83

The Gipper

Zombo said:

Rating, Yards/game, completion % TD% ... not "volume stats"

Also....if we look at just those particular stats.....Aaron Rodgers leads both Manning and Brady in every single category.

So look out there.

Rating: Rodgers, Romo, Brees each ahead of both

YPG: Stafford and Brees ahead of both

Completion %: Brees, Rodgers, Warner, Pennington ahead of both

TD%: Luckman, Graham, Baugh, Rodgers ahead of both.

The Gipper

Zombo said:

You can just use per/game stats.

Here's a couple more "volume" stats though

Game winning drives: Manning #1 with 52, Brady #4 with 45

Comebacks: Manning #1 with 41, Brady #4 with 34

With 3 more years under his belt Manning would have that advantage.....but I predict Brady would surpass those numbers with 16 full starter years....as Manning has had. (Brady at only 13)

and one more key "prorated" stat:

Career sacked %: Manning #1 with 3.07%, Brady #14 with 4.83

I also propound that Brady has not had nearly the kind of talent at WR that Manning has had over the years. Harrison/Wayne.

Only for a brief time did Brady have Moss.

And the guys that Denver has had overall have been much better than NEs WRs over the last couple of years.

Mudfly

Too many stats and ways to slice it.....how about using Approximate Value(AV) Ratings....they weigh EVERYTHING into account and give a total value score for the players entire career....stats...wins....years played....etc etc....and based upon AV rating....

Peyton Manning and Brett Favre are tied as the 2 most valuable players to EVER play(not just qbs)....after them, the next 8 are...

3) Fran Tarkenton

4) Dan Marino

5) John Elway

6) Tom Brady

7) Drew Brees

Steve Young

9) Warren Moon

10) Joe Montana