Justin Houston wants out of KC..
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So you'd tell Krugs to undo what made him better? Why? Were Houston his opposite, teams would already run in Houston's direction as it is.
Not that it matters... I don't think anyone is going to make an offer. Houston will "hold out" through pre-season and then report before he starts forfeiting game checks. Then the only question will be whether or not the process repeats in 2016.
1) Krugs best year is still the year Blt used him mainly as a strict pass rusher with his hand in the dirt. He was terrible at run stopping that year but he's def gotten better at that. He sets the edge brilliantly now standing or with his hands down so for him it really doesn't matter...but his sack numbers would most "definitely" go back up if we were in a 4-3. Two reasons....A) His hands would be in the dirt and
We'd have a better rotation at the ends so he wouldn't have to play every single defensive snap like he had to do a lot last year.2) Not that Houston couldn't easily be converted to a 4-3 DE but obviously if we got him we would likely stay in the 3-4. And it wouldn't matter if teams would run at him cause he's one of the best run stoppers in the NFL.
1) Krugs best year is still the year Blt used him mainly as a strict pass rusher with his hand in the dirt. He was terrible at run stopping that year but he's def gotten better at that. He sets the edge brilliantly now standing or with his hands down so for him it really doesn't matter...but his sack numbers would most "definitely" go back up if we were in a 4-3. Two reasons....A) His hands would be in the dirt and
We'd have a better rotation at the ends so he wouldn't have to play every single defensive snap like he had to do a lot last year.2) Not that Houston couldn't easily be converted to a 4-3 DE but obviously if we got him we would likely stay in the 3-4. And it wouldn't matter if teams would run at him cause he's one of the best run stoppers in the NFL.
1. If asked to, then Krugs can put his hand down at any weight.
2. Do you have a reference on Houston's run stop prowess? I ask because I have trouble seeing a player tied for 60th in total tackles among LBs as being "one of the best run stoppers in the NFL". More so when you consider over a third of his tackles were on sacks.
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1) Krugs best year is still the year Blt used him mainly as a strict pass rusher with his hand in the dirt. He was terrible at run stopping that year but he's def gotten better at that. He sets the edge brilliantly now standing or with his hands down so for him it really doesn't matter...but his sack numbers would most "definitely" go back up if we were in a 4-3. Two reasons....A) His hands would be in the dirt and
We'd have a better rotation at the ends so he wouldn't have to play every single defensive snap like he had to do a lot last year.2) Not that Houston couldn't easily be converted to a 4-3 DE but obviously if we got him we would likely stay in the 3-4. And it wouldn't matter if teams would run at him cause he's one of the best run stoppers in the NFL.
1. If asked to, then Krugs can put his hand down at any weight.
2. Do you have a reference on Houston's run stop prowess? I ask because I have trouble seeing a player tied for 60th in total tackles among LBs as being "one of the best run stoppers in the NFL". More so when you consider over a third of his tackles were on sacks.
. Well u know that de's and olb'ers are rated on edge setting . And i read last night he's rated close to jpp in that respect. I cant furnish that link right now cause im at work and on this stupid phone. But google works.1. If asked to, then Krugs can put his hand down at any weight.2. Do you have a reference on Houston's run stop prowess? I ask because I have trouble seeing a player tied for 60th in total tackles among LBs as being "one of the best run stoppers in the NFL". More so when you consider over a third of his tackles were on sacks.
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. Well u know that de's and olb'ers are rated on edge setting . And i read last night he's rated close to jpp in that respect. I cant furnish that link right now cause im at work and on this stupid phone. But google works.1. If asked to, then Krugs can put his hand down at any weight.2. Do you have a reference on Houston's run stop prowess? I ask because I have trouble seeing a player tied for 60th in total tackles among LBs as being "one of the best run stoppers in the NFL". More so when you consider over a third of his tackles were on sacks.
. Well u know that de's and olb'ers are rated on edge setting . And i read last night he's rated close to jpp in that respect. I cant furnish that link right now cause im at work and on this stupid phone. But google works.
I'm sure there's every conceivable list somewhere, but googling "rating nfl edge setters" turned up nothing so I'll wait...
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And of corse kruger can put his hands down at any weight....not sure what the reference there was. My only point is that he's undebatably better with his hands down. As a full time DE he could put a couple lbs back on and get his beast bullrush back
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. Well u know that de's and olb'ers are rated on edge setting . And i read last night he's rated close to jpp in that respect. I cant furnish that link right now cause im at work and on this stupid phone. But google works.
I'm sure there's every conceivable list somewhere, but googling "rating nfl edge setters" turned up nothing so I'll wait...
i think i googled houston and run stopping rating..,something like that . In any case, look at him,,,,he 's no mingo type. Dude is legit jacked...if he wasnt a good run stopper it would be something he could learn, just like kruger did...cause both are physical specimensI'm sure there's every conceivable list somewhere, but googling "rating nfl edge setters" turned up nothing so I'll wait...
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i think i googled houston and run stopping rating..,something like that . In any case, look at him,,,,he 's no mingo type. Dude is legit jacked...if he wasnt a good run stopper it would be something he could learn, just like kruger did...cause both are physical specimensI'm sure there's every conceivable list somewhere, but googling "rating nfl edge setters" turned up nothing so I'll wait...
i think i googled houston and run stopping rating..,something like that . In any case, look at him,,,,he 's no mingo type. Dude is legit jacked...if he wasnt a good run stopper it would be something he could learn, just like kruger did...cause both are physical specimens
Just looked him up and....
Houston has a fairly decent run stop rating at +8.1, compared to Krugers 0.5.....also has way less missed tackles and way more sacks.....
His overall PFF is off the charts at +51.....(3rd highest OLB in the league)(K.Mack & V. Miller)
And 40 tackles appears to be the standard for 3-4 OLB's, as it is the 5th highest total.......(Krugs had 35)...
So...for me.....Houston would be an awesome addition.....but, as always, it's fear of the price that bothers me.....I hate to pay him huge AND pay huge to get him......should be one or the other, but not both......
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I hate seeing kmacks stats. I really wanted that bastard. Fuck he's a rookie and already the best run stpping olb'er in the league. Fuck he would have been awesome as a brown. Somebody refresh my mem on which category gilbert was rated out as best in nfl?
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I hate seeing kmacks stats. I really wanted that bastard. Fuck he's a rookie and already the best run stpping olb'er in the league. Fuck he would have been awesome as a brown. Somebody refresh my mem on which category gilbert was rated out as best in nfl?
I hate seeing kmacks stats. I really wanted that bastard. Fuck he's a rookie and already the best run stpping olb'er in the league. Fuck he would have been awesome as a brown. Somebody refresh my mem on which category gilbert was rated out as best in nfl?
Well we agree on Khalil. Him being on the board at 4 made me jettison Sammy tout suite... But I was OK with the trade down deal and the book is not yet closed on the value it produced.
Just looked him up and....
Houston has a fairly decent run stop rating at +8.1, compared to Krugers 0.5.....also has way less missed tackles and way more sacks.....
His overall PFF is off the charts at +51.....(3rd highest OLB in the league)(K.Mack & V. Miller)
And 40 tackles appears to be the standard for 3-4 OLB's, as it is the 5th highest total.......(Krugs had 35)...
So...for me.....Houston would be an awesome addition.....but, as always, it's fear of the price that bothers me.....I hate to pay him huge AND pay huge to get him......should be one or the other, but not both......
Did the 40 includes sacks? If yes, tends to make the tackle total less impressive. But it may not as NFL stats had him at 60 combined tackles.
Also... what's the norm for a 4-3 OLB?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I hate seeing kmacks stats. I really wanted that bastard. Fuck he's a rookie and already the best run stpping olb'er in the league. Fuck he would have been awesome as a brown. Somebody refresh my mem on which category gilbert was rated out as best in nfl?
Well we agree on Khalil. Him being on the board at 4 made me jettison Sammy tout suite... But I was OK with the trade down deal and the book is not yet closed on the value it produced.
Just looked him up and....
Houston has a fairly decent run stop rating at +8.1, compared to Krugers 0.5.....also has way less missed tackles and way more sacks.....
His overall PFF is off the charts at +51.....(3rd highest OLB in the league)(K.Mack & V. Miller)
And 40 tackles appears to be the standard for 3-4 OLB's, as it is the 5th highest total.......(Krugs had 35)...
So...for me.....Houston would be an awesome addition.....but, as always, it's fear of the price that bothers me.....I hate to pay him huge AND pay huge to get him......should be one or the other, but not both......
Did the 40 includes sacks? If yes, tends to make the tackle total less impressive. But it may not as NFL stats had him at 60 combined tackles.
Also... what's the norm for a 4-3 OLB?
Well we agree on Khalil. Him being on the board at 4 made me jettison Sammy tout suite... But I was OK with the trade down deal and the book is not yet closed on the value it produced.
Did the 40 includes sacks? If yes, tends to make the tackle total less impressive. But it may not as NFL stats had him at 60 combined tackles.
Also... what's the norm for a 4-3 OLB?
K Mack would have been awesome, no doubt......I know there were a lot of questions about him, due to his lack of competition in college.......would have been a nice add, but aint gonna lose sleep over woulda coulda shoulda.... Im still very good with the trade...
And Houstons 40 tackles do NOT include sacks.....so he had 40 tackles - 23 sacks - and(wait for it) 54 QB hurries.....(yes, 54)....
And the difference between the #'s on 3-4 vs 4-3 OLB's is HUGE.......
The top 5 tackle totals for 3-4 olbs were very close, ranging between 40 & 44 total tackles...
The top 5 tackle totals for 4-3 olbs were much higher, ranging between 86-120 total tackles....
A completely different planet, actually......though we know they have different responsibilities, I admit to being surprised by the huge difference in the #'s....
More like a DE #'s, than an OLB
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I'm torn on this not am I entirely sure how this situation works. Would we have to give up our first round pick this year, or could we give up the #19 pick?
Knowing exactly nothing about the situation other than we'd have to give up two firsts and assuming that there would be a willing trade partner, this would be the perfect scenario:
We give up #19 + 2016 first-round pick.
We trade out of #12 to late 20's to recoup 2015 first round pick.
We take BPA DT/OG in the late first.
That would be the ultimate perfect scenario to justify taking Houston. However, that scenario is insanely unlikely (for a number of reasons), therefore I don't think I could justify taking him for two first round picks.
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I realize that cap room is not an issue, my point is that you're not only giving him a huge contract but also giving up two first round picks and there's no certainty he will work out.
The Chiefs have built a solid front seven which makes things easier on Houston. The Browns don't have players of that quality in the front 7.
Normally, I would balk at the idea of two first round picks and you are totally right because it is an extraordinarily large sum and the risks are there no matter what... I just think sometimes you gotta pay the price to get better. Now, with where this team is at? It is worth it all the way. He's a good player and judging from our past, our two first rounders won't even be on our team 4 years after we draft them... so, what I'm saying is at some point the Browns are going to have to pay the price and make a statement that says they are going to do what it takes to win. It seems to me that there is a high risk reward with this type of deal. And seriously here, even if this were to happen and the football gods smiled on Berea in such a bold fashion and then he failed to live up to expectations or even worse, got hurt? I think you would damn near get a free pass from the fans for actually having the balls to do something risky in free agency for a change. I think this would be a better calculated move than signing over the hill free agents and drafting spoiled entitled rich kids to be promised the future.
Seriously though, why are we even talking about this? The Browns won't do something like this... they will do what they usually do and that's sit on their hands and tell themselves that the future will get better because they believe. Just like they believed in drafting an old retired baseball player to be the quarterback of the future. Or that they believe that drafting a wealthy college icon is going to translate into NFL success?
And seriously here, even if this were to happen and the football gods smiled on Berea in such a bold fashion and then he failed to live up to expectations or even worse, got hurt? I think you would damn near get a free pass from the fans for actually having the balls to do something risky in free agency for a change.
The FO will never get a free pass from the fans. Hindsight is 20-20 and it will only be called ballsy if it works out, otherwise it will be called stupid.
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what's he looking for? 15m? That's a little steep I'll admit. But for that output? If we had a bum on the opposite side I'd say forget it, he's gonna come here and get triple teamed on every snap....but since we have Kruger on the other side, man that would be nasty. We'd have about 23m tied up In our olb'ers, lol. I still think we need to make an offer to one of those FA NT/DL
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Well we agree on Khalil. Him being on the board at 4 made me jettison Sammy tout suite... But I was OK with the trade down deal and the book is not yet closed on the value it produced.
Did the 40 includes sacks? If yes, tends to make the tackle total less impressive. But it may not as NFL stats had him at 60 combined tackles.
Also... what's the norm for a 4-3 OLB?
K Mack would have been awesome, no doubt......I know there were a lot of questions about him, due to his lack of competition in college.......would have been a nice add, but aint gonna lose sleep over woulda coulda shoulda.... Im still very good with the trade...
And Houstons 40 tackles do NOT include sacks.....so he had 40 tackles - 23 sacks - and(wait for it) 54 QB hurries.....(yes, 54)....
And the difference between the #'s on 3-4 vs 4-3 OLB's is HUGE.......
The top 5 tackle totals for 3-4 olbs were very close, ranging between 40 & 44 total tackles...
The top 5 tackle totals for 4-3 olbs were much higher, ranging between 86-120 total tackles....
A completely different planet, actually......though we know they have different responsibilities, I admit to being surprised by the huge difference in the #'s....
More like a DE #'s, than an OLB
And the difference between the #'s on 3-4 vs 4-3 OLB's is HUGE.......
The top 5 tackle totals for 3-4 olbs were very close, ranging between 40 & 44 total tackles...
The top 5 tackle totals for 4-3 olbs were much higher, ranging between 86-120 total tackles....
A completely different planet, actually......though we know they have different responsibilities, I admit to being surprised by the huge difference in the #'s....
Yes, startling. I wonder how much is run D roles vs. other factors like platooning... If 3-4 ILBs rack up more tackles than than their 4-3 counterpart, then we may have a clue.
I'm torn on this not am I entirely sure how this situation works. Would we have to give up our first round pick this year, or could we give up the #19 pick?
Don't know for sure, but my guess would be we'd have to give up the #12 and our 2016 #1, i.e., "our" picks. The #19 would still be considered Buffalo's pick, albeit traded to us.
Assuming cap space, it sure makes poaching a tagged player a better move for a contender to make. Surrendering a couple of late first picks wouldn't hurt that much.
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And the difference between the #'s on 3-4 vs 4-3 OLB's is HUGE.......
The top 5 tackle totals for 3-4 olbs were very close, ranging between 40 & 44 total tackles...
The top 5 tackle totals for 4-3 olbs were much higher, ranging between 86-120 total tackles....
A completely different planet, actually......though we know they have different responsibilities, I admit to being surprised by the huge difference in the #'s....
Yes, startling. I wonder how much is run D roles vs. other factors like platooning... If 3-4 ILBs rack up more tackles than than their 4-3 counterpart, then we may have a clue.
I'm torn on this not am I entirely sure how this situation works. Would we have to give up our first round pick this year, or could we give up the #19 pick?
Don't know for sure, but my guess would be we'd have to give up the #12 and our 2016 #1, i.e., "our" picks. The #19 would still be considered Buffalo's pick, albeit traded to us.
Assuming cap space, it sure makes poaching a tagged player a better move for a contender to make. Surrendering a couple of late first picks wouldn't hurt that much.
Yes, startling. I wonder how much is run D roles vs. other factors like platooning... If 3-4 ILBs rack up more tackles than than their 4-3 counterpart, then we may have a clue.
3-4 OLB'ers are asked to the same things in the run game that 4-3 DE's are....set the edge. "IF" they can still make the tackle from behind they are free to do so...as Houston does "a lot". But most important is to force the runner inside. When I watch our defense this is what i'm almost always looking at on EVERY play. I can't see well what our interior is doing cause it's a cloud of dust but you can see how well the edges are either rushing or setting up the edge. My progression when watching goes from the OLB'ers to the ILB'ers if it's a run...see how well the ILB'ers read the run.
This is was my analysis of our OLB'ers against the run last year. they were "very" good. Both Sheard and Kruger were excellent at setting the edge...they almost never got blown off the point and hence almost everything got turned inside. Which worked out fine for opposing teams cause we couldn't stop anything up the middle. Bout midway to 3/4 of the way through the season it became an all hands on deck to stop the run....that's when I started to see Kruger literally spinning off the point and flailing down on the runner as he came through off guard. Was so cringy...spinning like that in that mass of large moving bodies was just asking to get your star OLB'ers shit ruined. I was furious. One of the reasons I was so hard on our ILB'ers was because they were going to get our main pass rushers dinged.
3-4 OLB'ers main jobs are to turn the run inside...period. If you have them trying to make a play on the ball carrier you're opening up the bounce lanes...which is exactly what happened to us when the coaches started asking our OLB'ers to make plays on the ball.
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