Run defense - player breakout/ratings
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Thanks so much!
I love seeing stats that grade out how players actually do every play. As they say, you're exactly as good as your record.
This eliminates the blowhardiness of people who come on and talk about how REAL FOOTBALL COACHES look at "Things Everyone Knows" and therefore Because He Tries Really Hard, we should pay big bucks to some incompetent old free agent who's been cut by 4 teams.. or trade Joe Thomas for a backup linebacker.
I thought Mingo was not that good, but hopefully next year he'll be even better.. It's pretty astounding he was able to play the entire year with his shoulder in a sling.
It's frustrating that Kirksey's ceiling is probably Robertson.. but not shocking given that Kirksey was only a 4th round pick.
Not shocking that Rubin and Taylor stink.
Not shocking that Rubin and Taylor stink.
hilarious!!
i thought taylor was the mainstay of the D line.......hard to believe that sometimes what you perceive to see with your own two old assed blind eyes is really not what is happening.
man, i need to start taking drugs (again).
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How about giving us the link to where you are getting these rankings.
How about giving us the link to where you are getting these rankings.
Mostly from PFF and I cant cut/paste or link to it cause its a pay service...
glad to see mingo wasn't as bad as people had thought.
prob take a DL with the 12th if there's no movement.
Me too....I was pretty hard on him(Mingo) this year..
yes, id say take best "front 7" available...example, if Shelton was gone, but Beasley was still there....BAM...hes a Brown!
Thanks so much!
I love seeing stats that grade out how players actually do every play. As they say, you're exactly as good as your record.
It's frustrating that Kirksey's ceiling is probably Robertson.. but not shocking given that Kirksey was only a 4th round pick.
Yep...they help tell the whole story....Hey, Mingo cant get a sack if coach doesnt rush him, right?....yet, people grade him on not having enough sacks....or Kruger is great because he had 11 sacks, yet thats the only thing he did well....etc etc....
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Nice job, Mud... buy yourself a beer... on me...
Couple questions:
- Are all the ratings vs. the run only? I'm guessing yes, since it was a run D analysis (duh), but I got a little confused when you started breaking down Sheard vs. Krugs and the relative pass/run contributions to their grades.
- In the game grades vs. run... do they note positives for occupying blockers? Assuming yes, what's the weight vs. a solo tackle vs. an assist?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Nice job, Mud... buy yourself a beer... on me...
Couple questions:
- Are all the ratings vs. the run only? I'm guessing yes, since it was a run D analysis (duh), but I got a little confused when you started breaking down Sheard vs. Krugs and the relative pass/run contributions to their grades.
- In the game grades vs. run... do they note positives for occupying blockers? Assuming yes, what's the weight vs. a solo tackle vs. an assist?
Nice job, Mud... buy yourself a beer... on me...
Couple questions:
- Are all the ratings vs. the run only? I'm guessing yes, since it was a run D analysis (duh), but I got a little confused when you started breaking down Sheard vs. Krugs and the relative pass/run contributions to their grades.
- In the game grades vs. run... do they note positives for occupying blockers? Assuming yes, what's the weight vs. a solo tackle vs. an assist?
Thanks Tour....been putting it together for a while now....
#1...I have no answer for that first one...
#2... see how that can be confusing....The first block I posted was run D specific and all the LB...DB ...DL ratings were run d only
........BUT...the second block I posted(on LB's) is an overall rating for them...includes Run D, Pass D and Pass ratings....
#3...No. They dont give us specifics stats for holding a block, per se....but it is in the equation and factored. They do not reveal the weighting. They also incude a "stop" stat that is one of my favorites. Which is basically given when that player creates the end of an offensive play.
Here's a good example....picture this(cause we all can)....Mingo comes flying thru at 100mhp on the blitz and hits the QB....freezes him....but doesnt bring him down.....and instant later Kruger(or anyone) finishes him off...gets the sack.....and we all chortle about Mingo and his one armed missed tackle....right?.....but HE gets the stop at PFF.....cause he, in essense, ended the offensive plays progress.....So, I like the "stop" concept very much and the fact that they break it out there(nice stat).....
The Lb rating contradiction in era 1 is mostly explained by the perceived assignments over that period and those who are grading them...meaning the last 3 games of Era 1, the LBs were perceived as having much more run responsibility than they were the first 3 games, and were graded differently because of it..... it would take a lot of paragraphs to show how exactly I came to it, but the cliffs notes are they do break out "run snaps" vs "pass snaps" and you can see it per game/per snap basis(and it's not run/pass plays...its what that player played on that snap, see?)....and then you can easily see the trends(and adjustments the D was making)......LB plays run 10 snaps/gm for 3 games, then suddenly plays run 30 snaps/gm for 3 games and grades change dramatically over those same games.....etc...
Im gonna post a follow up to this that kinda shows some of the formation changes he made and how the grades coincide....it'll help with the overall picture.....but not today....
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Rubin signed a one year deal with Seattle. Browns definitely go defense at #12
curious how much he's gettin?......even with all the bad things I said about his play this year, he was a good player for us for quite a while(and very good teammate). I think he could rebound from his injury and do well. The 4-3 Seattle plays should work well for him.....so good luck and adios to the Ruben sammich
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Great data. Have another beer. This one on me. Thanks.
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Gotta disagree with u on Rubin.. Rubin was a 6th rounder for a reason: He's very limited athletically. He was decent until he was unable to compensate.
I don't think he'll be even serviceable in Seattle.. he's done
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Danny Shelton.
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Ah, 17 games? Did we make the playoffs?
Ah, 17 games? Did we make the playoffs?
Guessing he meant weeks, but, yeah...
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Ah, 17 games? Did we make the playoffs?
Guessing he meant weeks, but, yeah...
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Nice job, Mud... buy yourself a beer... on me...
Couple questions:
- Are all the ratings vs. the run only? I'm guessing yes, since it was a run D analysis (duh), but I got a little confused when you started breaking down Sheard vs. Krugs and the relative pass/run contributions to their grades.
- In the game grades vs. run... do they note positives for occupying blockers? Assuming yes, what's the weight vs. a solo tackle vs. an assist?
Thanks Tour....been putting it together for a while now....
#1...I have no answer for that first one...
#2... see how that can be confusing....The first block I posted was run D specific and all the LB...DB ...DL ratings were run d only
........BUT...the second block I posted(on LB's) is an overall rating for them...includes Run D, Pass D and Pass ratings....
#3...No. They dont give us specifics stats for holding a block, per se....but it is in the equation and factored. They do not reveal the weighting. They also incude a "stop" stat that is one of my favorites. Which is basically given when that player creates the end of an offensive play.
Here's a good example....picture this(cause we all can)....Mingo comes flying thru at 100mhp on the blitz and hits the QB....freezes him....but doesnt bring him down.....and instant later Kruger(or anyone) finishes him off...gets the sack.....and we all chortle about Mingo and his one armed missed tackle....right?.....but HE gets the stop at PFF.....cause he, in essense, ended the offensive plays progress.....So, I like the "stop" concept very much and the fact that they break it out there(nice stat).....
The Lb rating contradiction in era 1 is mostly explained by the perceived assignments over that period and those who are grading them...meaning the last 3 games of Era 1, the LBs were perceived as having much more run responsibility than they were the first 3 games, and were graded differently because of it..... it would take a lot of paragraphs to show how exactly I came to it, but the cliffs notes are they do break out "run snaps" vs "pass snaps" and you can see it per game/per snap basis(and it's not run/pass plays...its what that player played on that snap, see?)....and then you can easily see the trends(and adjustments the D was making)......LB plays run 10 snaps/gm for 3 games, then suddenly plays run 30 snaps/gm for 3 games and grades change dramatically over those same games.....etc...
Im gonna post a follow up to this that kinda shows some of the formation changes he made and how the grades coincide....it'll help with the overall picture.....but not today....
Im gonna post a follow up to this that kinda shows some of the formation changes he made and how the grades coincide....it'll help with the overall picture.....but not today....
No hurry, my friend... thanks for the reply... cleared the methodology up some...
Great data. Have another beer. This one on me. Thanks.
... or on mik, if you win the bet...
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Ah, 17 games? Did we make the playoffs?
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im very surprised by Dansby's PFF rating. He looked out of place and consistently in the wrong gap all season long...just like all our LB'ers.
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im very surprised by Dansby's PFF rating. He looked out of place and consistently in the wrong gap all season long...just like all our LB'ers.
im very surprised by Dansby's PFF rating. He looked out of place and consistently in the wrong gap all season long...just like all our LB'ers.
That describes D'Qwell Jackson...you sure you didn't sleep through last year?
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im very surprised by Dansby's PFF rating. He looked out of place and consistently in the wrong gap all season long...just like all our LB'ers.
im very surprised by Dansby's PFF rating. He looked out of place and consistently in the wrong gap all season long...just like all our LB'ers.
Ha....Im not surprised that you are surprised....
we definitely have different perspectives on how Pettine uses these guys....
That describes D'Qwell Jackson...
Double HA!...
Yeah, Id take Dansby a thousand times over DQ.....
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Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, Haloti Ngata, now Danny Shelton. Those type of players come around almost never. Steal Shelton and watch the rest of the D become elite.
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yeah I just don't know what you guys were seeing with Dansby. He made some nice plays in the backfield when he blitzed, that was all I can say he did alright on for most of the season. His reactions to the run were horrible. He may have made the stop eventually which is why his ratings were ok but that was after the runner already made 5-10 yds. It's just hard for me to imagine that the worst run D in the league can have an ILB'er with a high run defense rating. It makes no sense.
We'll see this year. I'm going to be watching our ILB'ers like a hawk. And this coming season i'm not gonna accept the argument, if our run D sucks again, that the d line isn't getting the job done. I'm going to look at his one on one matchups, cause at some point every LB'er in the league has to fight off a blocker. You can't make the argument that one OL makes it to the 2nd level that oh well I guess that neutralizes our whole interior run defense, which is what it looked like happened last year. Maybe it was Dansby and Kirksey not working well together, I dunno. I'm not giving our D line a complete pass either, but watching the stretch plays all season long gives you a real good idea of what your ILB'ers are made of. And i'm sorry but from what I saw Dansby never made his way through the redwoods. DQ did it all the time, "maybe" DQ was better side to side than up the middle...a fair opinion...but his side line to side line pursuit was vastly better than anybody on our roster now save maybe for Robertson. You guys had to have noticed how Robertson was getting through on those stretch plays when he was starting later in the season. He wasn't world class by any means but he was showing the baseline competencies of what you expect from an ILB'er. At the beginning of the season Kirksey and Dansby were always stuck behind the wall running to the sideline. I don't know if our scheme was putting them in different positions on those plays or what, but watch any of the good defense's in the NFL and you see their inside LB'ers flashing through the lineman as they make their way to the sideline.
Ray Ray was the best ever at doing this. Drove me nuts when we played the Ravens cause it would look like our RB had the sideline and then that cunt would flash through just as the runner was about to cut upfield. I love watching Kuechly because he's that sideline to sideline monster who will also fly north to make stops at the line.
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yeah I just don't know what you guys were seeing with Dansby. He made some nice plays in the backfield when he blitzed, that was all I can say he did alright on for most of the season. His reactions to the run were horrible. He may have made the stop eventually which is why his ratings were ok but that was after the runner already made 5-10 yds. It's just hard for me to imagine that the worst run D in the league can have an ILB'er with a high run defense rating. It makes no sense.
We'll see this year. I'm going to be watching our ILB'ers like a hawk. And this coming season i'm not gonna accept the argument, if our run D sucks again, that the d line isn't getting the job done. I'm going to look at his one on one matchups, cause at some point every LB'er in the league has to fight off a blocker. You can't make the argument that one OL makes it to the 2nd level that oh well I guess that neutralizes our whole interior run defense, which is what it looked like happened last year. Maybe it was Dansby and Kirksey not working well together, I dunno. I'm not giving our D line a complete pass either, but watching the stretch plays all season long gives you a real good idea of what your ILB'ers are made of. And i'm sorry but from what I saw Dansby never made his way through the redwoods. DQ did it all the time, "maybe" DQ was better side to side than up the middle...a fair opinion...but his side line to side line pursuit was vastly better than anybody on our roster now save maybe for Robertson. You guys had to have noticed how Robertson was getting through on those stretch plays when he was starting later in the season. He wasn't world class by any means but he was showing the baseline competencies of what you expect from an ILB'er. At the beginning of the season Kirksey and Dansby were always stuck behind the wall running to the sideline. I don't know if our scheme was putting them in different positions on those plays or what, but watch any of the good defense's in the NFL and you see their inside LB'ers flashing through the lineman as they make their way to the sideline.
Ray Ray was the best ever at doing this. Drove me nuts when we played the Ravens cause it would look like our RB had the sideline and then that cunt would flash through just as the runner was about to cut upfield. I love watching Kuechly because he's that sideline to sideline monster who will also fly north to make stops at the line.
yeah I just don't know what you guys were seeing with Dansby. It's just hard for me to imagine that the worst run D in the league can have an ILB'er with a high run defense rating. It makes no sense.
We'll see this year. I'm going to be watching our ILB'ers like a hawk. And this coming season i'm not gonna accept the argument, if our run D sucks again, that the d line isn't getting the job done. I'm going to look at his one on one matchups, cause at some point every LB'er in the league has to fight off a blocker.
Too bad someone did not do an analysis of our run D...
If you are saying that you are going to DVR and breakdown every game, then good... I look forward to your write ups.
However, if you are going to peddle your anecdotal game impressions, half of them live and in person, as analysis, then don't bother. Even were you disciplined enough to not "watch the game", you simply cannot analyze 3 DL and 4 LB every play in two or fewer viewings, and then remember 70-odd plays hours later when you get to a PC.
Sorry... can't be done...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
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