Run defense - player breakout/ratings
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im very surprised by Dansby's PFF rating. He looked out of place and consistently in the wrong gap all season long...just like all our LB'ers.
im very surprised by Dansby's PFF rating. He looked out of place and consistently in the wrong gap all season long...just like all our LB'ers.
That describes D'Qwell Jackson...you sure you didn't sleep through last year?
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im very surprised by Dansby's PFF rating. He looked out of place and consistently in the wrong gap all season long...just like all our LB'ers.
im very surprised by Dansby's PFF rating. He looked out of place and consistently in the wrong gap all season long...just like all our LB'ers.
Ha....Im not surprised that you are surprised....
we definitely have different perspectives on how Pettine uses these guys....
That describes D'Qwell Jackson...
Double HA!...
Yeah, Id take Dansby a thousand times over DQ.....
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Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, Haloti Ngata, now Danny Shelton. Those type of players come around almost never. Steal Shelton and watch the rest of the D become elite.
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yeah I just don't know what you guys were seeing with Dansby. He made some nice plays in the backfield when he blitzed, that was all I can say he did alright on for most of the season. His reactions to the run were horrible. He may have made the stop eventually which is why his ratings were ok but that was after the runner already made 5-10 yds. It's just hard for me to imagine that the worst run D in the league can have an ILB'er with a high run defense rating. It makes no sense.
We'll see this year. I'm going to be watching our ILB'ers like a hawk. And this coming season i'm not gonna accept the argument, if our run D sucks again, that the d line isn't getting the job done. I'm going to look at his one on one matchups, cause at some point every LB'er in the league has to fight off a blocker. You can't make the argument that one OL makes it to the 2nd level that oh well I guess that neutralizes our whole interior run defense, which is what it looked like happened last year. Maybe it was Dansby and Kirksey not working well together, I dunno. I'm not giving our D line a complete pass either, but watching the stretch plays all season long gives you a real good idea of what your ILB'ers are made of. And i'm sorry but from what I saw Dansby never made his way through the redwoods. DQ did it all the time, "maybe" DQ was better side to side than up the middle...a fair opinion...but his side line to side line pursuit was vastly better than anybody on our roster now save maybe for Robertson. You guys had to have noticed how Robertson was getting through on those stretch plays when he was starting later in the season. He wasn't world class by any means but he was showing the baseline competencies of what you expect from an ILB'er. At the beginning of the season Kirksey and Dansby were always stuck behind the wall running to the sideline. I don't know if our scheme was putting them in different positions on those plays or what, but watch any of the good defense's in the NFL and you see their inside LB'ers flashing through the lineman as they make their way to the sideline.
Ray Ray was the best ever at doing this. Drove me nuts when we played the Ravens cause it would look like our RB had the sideline and then that cunt would flash through just as the runner was about to cut upfield. I love watching Kuechly because he's that sideline to sideline monster who will also fly north to make stops at the line.
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yeah I just don't know what you guys were seeing with Dansby. He made some nice plays in the backfield when he blitzed, that was all I can say he did alright on for most of the season. His reactions to the run were horrible. He may have made the stop eventually which is why his ratings were ok but that was after the runner already made 5-10 yds. It's just hard for me to imagine that the worst run D in the league can have an ILB'er with a high run defense rating. It makes no sense.
We'll see this year. I'm going to be watching our ILB'ers like a hawk. And this coming season i'm not gonna accept the argument, if our run D sucks again, that the d line isn't getting the job done. I'm going to look at his one on one matchups, cause at some point every LB'er in the league has to fight off a blocker. You can't make the argument that one OL makes it to the 2nd level that oh well I guess that neutralizes our whole interior run defense, which is what it looked like happened last year. Maybe it was Dansby and Kirksey not working well together, I dunno. I'm not giving our D line a complete pass either, but watching the stretch plays all season long gives you a real good idea of what your ILB'ers are made of. And i'm sorry but from what I saw Dansby never made his way through the redwoods. DQ did it all the time, "maybe" DQ was better side to side than up the middle...a fair opinion...but his side line to side line pursuit was vastly better than anybody on our roster now save maybe for Robertson. You guys had to have noticed how Robertson was getting through on those stretch plays when he was starting later in the season. He wasn't world class by any means but he was showing the baseline competencies of what you expect from an ILB'er. At the beginning of the season Kirksey and Dansby were always stuck behind the wall running to the sideline. I don't know if our scheme was putting them in different positions on those plays or what, but watch any of the good defense's in the NFL and you see their inside LB'ers flashing through the lineman as they make their way to the sideline.
Ray Ray was the best ever at doing this. Drove me nuts when we played the Ravens cause it would look like our RB had the sideline and then that cunt would flash through just as the runner was about to cut upfield. I love watching Kuechly because he's that sideline to sideline monster who will also fly north to make stops at the line.
yeah I just don't know what you guys were seeing with Dansby. It's just hard for me to imagine that the worst run D in the league can have an ILB'er with a high run defense rating. It makes no sense.
We'll see this year. I'm going to be watching our ILB'ers like a hawk. And this coming season i'm not gonna accept the argument, if our run D sucks again, that the d line isn't getting the job done. I'm going to look at his one on one matchups, cause at some point every LB'er in the league has to fight off a blocker.
Too bad someone did not do an analysis of our run D...
If you are saying that you are going to DVR and breakdown every game, then good... I look forward to your write ups.
However, if you are going to peddle your anecdotal game impressions, half of them live and in person, as analysis, then don't bother. Even were you disciplined enough to not "watch the game", you simply cannot analyze 3 DL and 4 LB every play in two or fewer viewings, and then remember 70-odd plays hours later when you get to a PC.
Sorry... can't be done...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
yeah I just don't know what you guys were seeing with Dansby. It's just hard for me to imagine that the worst run D in the league can have an ILB'er with a high run defense rating. It makes no sense.
We'll see this year. I'm going to be watching our ILB'ers like a hawk. And this coming season i'm not gonna accept the argument, if our run D sucks again, that the d line isn't getting the job done. I'm going to look at his one on one matchups, cause at some point every LB'er in the league has to fight off a blocker.
Too bad someone did not do an analysis of our run D...
If you are saying that you are going to DVR and breakdown every game, then good... I look forward to your write ups.
However, if you are going to peddle your anecdotal game impressions, half of them live and in person, as analysis, then don't bother. Even were you disciplined enough to not "watch the game", you simply cannot analyze 3 DL and 4 LB every play in two or fewer viewings, and then remember 70-odd plays hours later when you get to a PC.
Sorry... can't be done...
mudfly did a good job with his analysis not taking anything away from him. My only issue is i dont really know the nuances of how alot of those stats are compiled. Alot of it i guarantee is sketchy and they know it ...its compiled mainly for fantasy league honks who need something with numbers to tell them things that people who played can see for themselves. I know what i saw at the beginning of last season before the injuries started...i just dont know why i was seeing it. If i had all 22 access then "maybe" i could see something that the browns are doing with their ilb'ers that no other 3-4 team is doing...thats entirely possible. When it comes to pro level football schemes i fully admit im lost in the tall weeds. Especially at the more skill positions. In the trenches though things are a little simpler and its more of a "beat ur man" environment. But i saw right away what the staff started to do with our olb'ers in the run game midway through the season that none of u picked up on...and it coincided with our run losing edge containment. So iknow a little about what im talking about and when i read something i wasnt aware of i try to go read up on it cause its fun to actually comprehend the nuances of the game as they happen infront of u and not just be a drooling idiot or s neckbeard stats homo. So i will go read up on precisely these run stats are compuled and yes rest assured that for at least a couple games i will rewinding alot of plays and trying to see exactly whick cocksucker was just responsible for that b gap handoff that just went for 10 yds.Too bad someone did not do an analysis of our run D...If you are saying that you are going to DVR and breakdown every game, then good... I look forward to your write ups.However, if you are going to peddle your anecdotal game impressions, half of them live and in person, as analysis, then don't bother. Even were you disciplined enough to not "watch the game", you simply cannot analyze 3 DL and 4 LB every play in two or fewer viewings, and then remember 70-odd plays hours later when you get to a PC.Sorry... can't be done...
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yeah I just don't know what you guys were seeing with Dansby. It's just hard for me to imagine that the worst run D in the league can have an ILB'er with a high run defense rating. It makes no sense.
We'll see this year. I'm going to be watching our ILB'ers like a hawk. And this coming season i'm not gonna accept the argument, if our run D sucks again, that the d line isn't getting the job done. I'm going to look at his one on one matchups, cause at some point every LB'er in the league has to fight off a blocker.
Too bad someone did not do an analysis of our run D...
If you are saying that you are going to DVR and breakdown every game, then good... I look forward to your write ups.
However, if you are going to peddle your anecdotal game impressions, half of them live and in person, as analysis, then don't bother. Even were you disciplined enough to not "watch the game", you simply cannot analyze 3 DL and 4 LB every play in two or fewer viewings, and then remember 70-odd plays hours later when you get to a PC.
Sorry... can't be done...
Too bad someone did not do an analysis of our run D...
If you are saying that you are going to DVR and breakdown every game, then good... I look forward to your write ups.
However, if you are going to peddle your anecdotal game impressions, half of them live and in person, as analysis, then don't bother. Even were you disciplined enough to not "watch the game", you simply cannot analyze 3 DL and 4 LB every play in two or fewer viewings, and then remember 70-odd plays hours later when you get to a PC.
Sorry... can't be done...
A couple times last year I sat there with pencil and paper.
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Alrighty.....spent a lot of time on this, so I hope it helps some of you guys or offers some insight....
Decided to go through the entire season, one game at a time, and try to get my head around what happened with the run defense....when did it happen?....who played well consistently and who didnt...were there trends?....no?.....yada yada......used mostly PFF for the game to game player scores and, of course, NFL stats for the traditional #'s.....
The first thing that came to light were 3 distinct "statistical eras" for our run D....
ERA 1
Games 1 thru 7 = we gave up 156 yds per game(6 games).....this first block was pretty consistently poor for all 6 games. We were learning the new system, but fairly healthy(obviously) overall. The only reasonable answers to "why" we played so poorly are that we were learning a new system and/or just played poorly....
ERA 2
Games 8 thru 14 = we gave up 105 yds per game(7 games)....ok, this block we did really well and completely shut some teams down for a decent stretch. The one exception was game 11(Texans) where we gave up big yards(216)...remove this game and we had a 6 game run giving up only 86 yds per game......which is exceptional!!!!
ERA 3
Games 15 thru 17 = we gave up 191 yds per game(last 3 games)....and, at the end, we drove off a cliff....complete failure to stop any back the last 3 games.....
So, with those 3 distinct eras, I wondered "who" showed up when and how they coincide with players performance ratings, injuries, etc.....Im gonna try to understand who played best and who played worst and how it all relates....
ERA 1: Everyone is healthy except John Hughes, but we have a new system to work out. So some rough edges should be expected. Rubin went down after the third game, so by game 4 both he and Hughes were out. Everyone else is pretty much available. I went game to game and broke out the top and bottom performers run defense ratings for each game. To highlight the very best and very worst players each weeK....
The #1 consistent top performer(4 games outta 6) was Carlos Dansby and the first 3 games the other best run stoppers were Kruger and Sheard. Conversely(this is where it gets interesting) the worst scores for run D went to Rubin(games 1 &2) and the 2 Bryants....but once Rubin goes down, the LB's suddenly started getting lower scores and krugers run d starts sliding. It would appear the last 3 games that the LB's are adjusting to cover more run, but not doing so well with it. Clearly, Kruger struggled the most, while Dansby and Sheard really stepped it up.
So...era #1....top performers were generally linebacker and mostly Dansby & Sheard as the most effective. And the ONLY DL to score a "top rating" was John Hughes in the one game he played.
ERA 2: By now we have lost Hughes, Rubin, A bryant and Taylor...plus D. Bryant & Winn are nursing injuries and missing some games too....and Hughes is almost ready to return. So, with the better part of the D-line out and/or injured, we enter into our best and most effective run D era....(weird right?)...Im thinking this is because Pettine is adjusting personnel assignments, as the one big change that happens here are the safeties....suddenly Whitner shows up as our #1 run stuffer and the run D starts functioning at it's peak. Gipson and Leonards name both start showing up too, which tells me the DB's gained run responsibility as time went on....
The top run performer during this "very good" period was clearly Donte Whitner....followed by Mingo. And these guys didn't even register in the first era. So did they start playing better? or just gain responsibility because the guys in front of them couldn't get it done......the worst rated players were all DL...D. Bryant, Fua, Rubin(in fact....Rubin was rated in the bottom 2 in almost every game he played upon his return)
ERA 3: Im not gonna get too wrapped up in these last 3 games, because it was a death spiral. Just the names tell the story.....our top rated players were Poyer, Kitchen and Solomon...HA! and the bottom feeders were names like Fua, Meder, Bryant and Leonard....
Which says it all.....there was no one left......
So....with about 30 guys playing Defense over 16 games.....either Rubin(6) or D Bryant(5) were rated the worst player in 11 of them(ouch)......and Whitner(5), Dansby(4) and Sheard(4) took the honors for being rated the best against the run...consistently
TOP 5 RUN STOP SCORES - (its troubling to have 2 DB's and NOT have a DL on this list)
Sheard +9.4
Mingo +6.5
Whitner +5.5
Dansby +3.2
Gipson +2.7
Note: John Hughes scored very well in the few games he played and is the only D lineman to have a positive PFF this season. So...props to him anyway.
BOTTOM 5 RUN STOP SCORES
Rubin -9.6
D. Bryant -7.2
Fua -6.6
Winn -3.6
Taylor -3.6
Note: All DL.....everyone of them.
So, my final take away is this......we started out with a radically new system and players at new positions, which Id expect to take a while to gel, but instantly lost our D line....and this put pressure on the coaches to adjust to compensate, so other players(DB's and LB's) started carrying addition run responsibilities...which lowered their overall performance too....and the D line just got worse with more injuries(never the same rotation(ever))...then some backers went down and Sheard/Mingo/Dansby all played hurt just to cover for the massively damage line.....
So the line was all 2nd/3rd stringers being backed up by injured or 2nd string backers.....
and, fortunately, the CB's and FS were amazing and kept it all in check so the LB's and SS could at least stay home and try to help out.....
So, I see that we need help at DL(as we all thought) and that Rubin and Desmond Bryant were the 2 worst performers....and they were both really bad. Coincidentally, they are our 2 highest paid as well.
And John Hughes, when he played, played really really well.....
And our LB's were actually quite good and only started to slip when they had extra piled on.....and THEY definitely helped save the day during that "era 2" stretch that we played so well....
And Donte Whitner did so much more than any of us give him credit for....when Dansby was hurt and during those games we completely stopped the run, he was off the hook and the primary difference....
So...with a year in the system and the return of a healthy roster, it really DOES look like we only need to add a couple DL and replace Sheard and we can be back on track with the run D and have all the fixins for a dominant defense.....with depth....
But I do say, if we replace anybody based upon performance, it should be Rubin and D. Bryant.
Alrighty.....spent a lot of time on this, so I hope it helps some of you guys or offers some insight....
Decided to go through the entire season, one game at a time, and try to get my head around what happened with the run defense....when did it happen?....who played well consistently and who didnt...were there trends?....no?.....yada yada......used mostly PFF for the game to game player scores and, of course, NFL stats for the traditional #'s.....
The first thing that came to light were 3 distinct "statistical eras" for our run D....
ERA 1
Games 1 thru 7 = we gave up 156 yds per game(6 games).....this first block was pretty consistently poor for all 6 games. We were learning the new system, but fairly healthy(obviously) overall. The only reasonable answers to "why" we played so poorly are that we were learning a new system and/or just played poorly....
ERA 2
Games 8 thru 14 = we gave up 105 yds per game(7 games)....ok, this block we did really well and completely shut some teams down for a decent stretch. The one exception was game 11(Texans) where we gave up big yards(216)...remove this game and we had a 6 game run giving up only 86 yds per game......which is exceptional!!!!
ERA 3
Games 15 thru 17 = we gave up 191 yds per game(last 3 games)....and, at the end, we drove off a cliff....complete failure to stop any back the last 3 games.....
So, with those 3 distinct eras, I wondered "who" showed up when and how they coincide with players performance ratings, injuries, etc.....Im gonna try to understand who played best and who played worst and how it all relates....
ERA 1: Everyone is healthy except John Hughes, but we have a new system to work out. So some rough edges should be expected. Rubin went down after the third game, so by game 4 both he and Hughes were out. Everyone else is pretty much available. I went game to game and broke out the top and bottom performers run defense ratings for each game. To highlight the very best and very worst players each weeK....
The #1 consistent top performer(4 games outta 6) was Carlos Dansby and the first 3 games the other best run stoppers were Kruger and Sheard. Conversely(this is where it gets interesting) the worst scores for run D went to Rubin(games 1 &2) and the 2 Bryants....but once Rubin goes down, the LB's suddenly started getting lower scores and krugers run d starts sliding. It would appear the last 3 games that the LB's are adjusting to cover more run, but not doing so well with it. Clearly, Kruger struggled the most, while Dansby and Sheard really stepped it up.
So...era #1....top performers were generally linebacker and mostly Dansby & Sheard as the most effective. And the ONLY DL to score a "top rating" was John Hughes in the one game he played.
ERA 2: By now we have lost Hughes, Rubin, A bryant and Taylor...plus D. Bryant & Winn are nursing injuries and missing some games too....and Hughes is almost ready to return. So, with the better part of the D-line out and/or injured, we enter into our best and most effective run D era....(weird right?)...Im thinking this is because Pettine is adjusting personnel assignments, as the one big change that happens here are the safeties....suddenly Whitner shows up as our #1 run stuffer and the run D starts functioning at it's peak. Gipson and Leonards name both start showing up too, which tells me the DB's gained run responsibility as time went on....
The top run performer during this "very good" period was clearly Donte Whitner....followed by Mingo. And these guys didn't even register in the first era. So did they start playing better? or just gain responsibility because the guys in front of them couldn't get it done......the worst rated players were all DL...D. Bryant, Fua, Rubin(in fact....Rubin was rated in the bottom 2 in almost every game he played upon his return)
ERA 3: Im not gonna get too wrapped up in these last 3 games, because it was a death spiral. Just the names tell the story.....our top rated players were Poyer, Kitchen and Solomon...HA! and the bottom feeders were names like Fua, Meder, Bryant and Leonard....
Which says it all.....there was no one left......
So....with about 30 guys playing Defense over 16 games.....either Rubin(6) or D Bryant(5) were rated the worst player in 11 of them(ouch)......and Whitner(5), Dansby(4) and Sheard(4) took the honors for being rated the best against the run...consistently
TOP 5 RUN STOP SCORES - (its troubling to have 2 DB's and NOT have a DL on this list)
Sheard +9.4
Mingo +6.5
Whitner +5.5
Dansby +3.2
Gipson +2.7
Note: John Hughes scored very well in the few games he played and is the only D lineman to have a positive PFF this season. So...props to him anyway.
BOTTOM 5 RUN STOP SCORES
Rubin -9.6
D. Bryant -7.2
Fua -6.6
Winn -3.6
Taylor -3.6
Note: All DL.....everyone of them.
So, my final take away is this......we started out with a radically new system and players at new positions, which Id expect to take a while to gel, but instantly lost our D line....and this put pressure on the coaches to adjust to compensate, so other players(DB's and LB's) started carrying addition run responsibilities...which lowered their overall performance too....and the D line just got worse with more injuries(never the same rotation(ever))...then some backers went down and Sheard/Mingo/Dansby all played hurt just to cover for the massively damage line.....
So the line was all 2nd/3rd stringers being backed up by injured or 2nd string backers.....
and, fortunately, the CB's and FS were amazing and kept it all in check so the LB's and SS could at least stay home and try to help out.....
So, I see that we need help at DL(as we all thought) and that Rubin and Desmond Bryant were the 2 worst performers....and they were both really bad. Coincidentally, they are our 2 highest paid as well.
And John Hughes, when he played, played really really well.....
And our LB's were actually quite good and only started to slip when they had extra piled on.....and THEY definitely helped save the day during that "era 2" stretch that we played so well....
And Donte Whitner did so much more than any of us give him credit for....when Dansby was hurt and during those games we completely stopped the run, he was off the hook and the primary difference....
So...with a year in the system and the return of a healthy roster, it really DOES look like we only need to add a couple DL and replace Sheard and we can be back on track with the run D and have all the fixins for a dominant defense.....with depth....
But I do say, if we replace anybody based upon performance, it should be Rubin and D. Bryant.
Thanks for all the time you put into that! Great analysis and breakdown of the trends. Terrific way to kick off a discussion.
I think a lot of the data matches the eye ball test.
It would be interesting to find out how they differentiate the success vrs the run for the OLBers. For example, when Kruger does his bullrush through the man - he does 1 thing I really like. He usually gets it to the depth of the QB dropback or handoff. Consequently, he maintains outside leverage/contain which turns the ballcarrier up inside toward pursuit. He may not make those tackles, but I'm guessing our defensive coaches are happy he's doing that a high percentage of the time.
I'm afraid you're right about Des Bryant. He hasn't been the same since he had the heart valve procedure. Then he had wrist surgery in 2014, which probably meant he played through a lot of pain.
Karlos Dansby has great first step instinct. Not only that but he always shows up extremely well prepared. When he went down, Craig Robertson really stepped up and played well. It looked like a lot of the things I like about Dansby rubbed off on Robertson.
Danny Shelton in round 1 sounds better and better to me every day...
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Alrighty.....spent a lot of time on this, so I hope it helps some of you guys or offers some insight....
Decided to go through the entire season, one game at a time, and try to get my head around what happened with the run defense....when did it happen?....who played well consistently and who didnt...were there trends?....no?.....yada yada......used mostly PFF for the game to game player scores and, of course, NFL stats for the traditional #'s.....
The first thing that came to light were 3 distinct "statistical eras" for our run D....
ERA 1
Games 1 thru 7 = we gave up 156 yds per game(6 games).....this first block was pretty consistently poor for all 6 games. We were learning the new system, but fairly healthy(obviously) overall. The only reasonable answers to "why" we played so poorly are that we were learning a new system and/or just played poorly....
ERA 2
Games 8 thru 14 = we gave up 105 yds per game(7 games)....ok, this block we did really well and completely shut some teams down for a decent stretch. The one exception was game 11(Texans) where we gave up big yards(216)...remove this game and we had a 6 game run giving up only 86 yds per game......which is exceptional!!!!
ERA 3
Games 15 thru 17 = we gave up 191 yds per game(last 3 games)....and, at the end, we drove off a cliff....complete failure to stop any back the last 3 games.....
So, with those 3 distinct eras, I wondered "who" showed up when and how they coincide with players performance ratings, injuries, etc.....Im gonna try to understand who played best and who played worst and how it all relates....
ERA 1: Everyone is healthy except John Hughes, but we have a new system to work out. So some rough edges should be expected. Rubin went down after the third game, so by game 4 both he and Hughes were out. Everyone else is pretty much available. I went game to game and broke out the top and bottom performers run defense ratings for each game. To highlight the very best and very worst players each weeK....
The #1 consistent top performer(4 games outta 6) was Carlos Dansby and the first 3 games the other best run stoppers were Kruger and Sheard. Conversely(this is where it gets interesting) the worst scores for run D went to Rubin(games 1 &2) and the 2 Bryants....but once Rubin goes down, the LB's suddenly started getting lower scores and krugers run d starts sliding. It would appear the last 3 games that the LB's are adjusting to cover more run, but not doing so well with it. Clearly, Kruger struggled the most, while Dansby and Sheard really stepped it up.
So...era #1....top performers were generally linebacker and mostly Dansby & Sheard as the most effective. And the ONLY DL to score a "top rating" was John Hughes in the one game he played.
ERA 2: By now we have lost Hughes, Rubin, A bryant and Taylor...plus D. Bryant & Winn are nursing injuries and missing some games too....and Hughes is almost ready to return. So, with the better part of the D-line out and/or injured, we enter into our best and most effective run D era....(weird right?)...Im thinking this is because Pettine is adjusting personnel assignments, as the one big change that happens here are the safeties....suddenly Whitner shows up as our #1 run stuffer and the run D starts functioning at it's peak. Gipson and Leonards name both start showing up too, which tells me the DB's gained run responsibility as time went on....
The top run performer during this "very good" period was clearly Donte Whitner....followed by Mingo. And these guys didn't even register in the first era. So did they start playing better? or just gain responsibility because the guys in front of them couldn't get it done......the worst rated players were all DL...D. Bryant, Fua, Rubin(in fact....Rubin was rated in the bottom 2 in almost every game he played upon his return)
ERA 3: Im not gonna get too wrapped up in these last 3 games, because it was a death spiral. Just the names tell the story.....our top rated players were Poyer, Kitchen and Solomon...HA! and the bottom feeders were names like Fua, Meder, Bryant and Leonard....
Which says it all.....there was no one left......
So....with about 30 guys playing Defense over 16 games.....either Rubin(6) or D Bryant(5) were rated the worst player in 11 of them(ouch)......and Whitner(5), Dansby(4) and Sheard(4) took the honors for being rated the best against the run...consistently
TOP 5 RUN STOP SCORES - (its troubling to have 2 DB's and NOT have a DL on this list)
Sheard +9.4
Mingo +6.5
Whitner +5.5
Dansby +3.2
Gipson +2.7
Note: John Hughes scored very well in the few games he played and is the only D lineman to have a positive PFF this season. So...props to him anyway.
BOTTOM 5 RUN STOP SCORES
Rubin -9.6
D. Bryant -7.2
Fua -6.6
Winn -3.6
Taylor -3.6
Note: All DL.....everyone of them.
So, my final take away is this......we started out with a radically new system and players at new positions, which Id expect to take a while to gel, but instantly lost our D line....and this put pressure on the coaches to adjust to compensate, so other players(DB's and LB's) started carrying addition run responsibilities...which lowered their overall performance too....and the D line just got worse with more injuries(never the same rotation(ever))...then some backers went down and Sheard/Mingo/Dansby all played hurt just to cover for the massively damage line.....
So the line was all 2nd/3rd stringers being backed up by injured or 2nd string backers.....
and, fortunately, the CB's and FS were amazing and kept it all in check so the LB's and SS could at least stay home and try to help out.....
So, I see that we need help at DL(as we all thought) and that Rubin and Desmond Bryant were the 2 worst performers....and they were both really bad. Coincidentally, they are our 2 highest paid as well.
And John Hughes, when he played, played really really well.....
And our LB's were actually quite good and only started to slip when they had extra piled on.....and THEY definitely helped save the day during that "era 2" stretch that we played so well....
And Donte Whitner did so much more than any of us give him credit for....when Dansby was hurt and during those games we completely stopped the run, he was off the hook and the primary difference....
So...with a year in the system and the return of a healthy roster, it really DOES look like we only need to add a couple DL and replace Sheard and we can be back on track with the run D and have all the fixins for a dominant defense.....with depth....
But I do say, if we replace anybody based upon performance, it should be Rubin and D. Bryant.
Thanks for all the time you put into that! Great analysis and breakdown of the trends. Terrific way to kick off a discussion.
I think a lot of the data matches the eye ball test.
It would be interesting to find out how they differentiate the success vrs the run for the OLBers. For example, when Kruger does his bullrush through the man - he does 1 thing I really like. He usually gets it to the depth of the QB dropback or handoff. Consequently, he maintains outside leverage/contain which turns the ballcarrier up inside toward pursuit. He may not make those tackles, but I'm guessing our defensive coaches are happy he's doing that a high percentage of the time.
I'm afraid you're right about Des Bryant. He hasn't been the same since he had the heart valve procedure. Then he had wrist surgery in 2014, which probably meant he played through a lot of pain.
Karlos Dansby has great first step instinct. Not only that but he always shows up extremely well prepared. When he went down, Craig Robertson really stepped up and played well. It looked like a lot of the things I like about Dansby rubbed off on Robertson.
Danny Shelton in round 1 sounds better and better to me every day...
glad to see someone else saw the same things from kruger. This is exactly why im not that high on so called stats because i dont think they reflect alot of intangibles. Krugers bull rush was infact better under horton...pets staff had krug drop some lbs to fit their scheme better. He had more sacks this year so on the surface it sounds like a win but im not so sure. I think a few of those extra sacks were because of the secondary giving our rush that extra second to get home. Kruger missed alot of sacks in hortons D, imo, because qb's could get rid of the ball in less than 2 seconds and still gouge our pass defense.Thanks for all the time you put into that! Great analysis and breakdown of the trends. Terrific way to kick off a discussion.
I think a lot of the data matches the eye ball test.
It would be interesting to find out how they differentiate the success vrs the run for the OLBers. For example, when Kruger does his bullrush through the man - he does 1 thing I really like. He usually gets it to the depth of the QB dropback or handoff. Consequently, he maintains outside leverage/contain which turns the ballcarrier up inside toward pursuit. He may not make those tackles, but I'm guessing our defensive coaches are happy he's doing that a high percentage of the time.
I'm afraid you're right about Des Bryant. He hasn't been the same since he had the heart valve procedure. Then he had wrist surgery in 2014, which probably meant he played through a lot of pain.
Karlos Dansby has great first step instinct. Not only that but he always shows up extremely well prepared. When he went down, Craig Robertson really stepped up and played well. It looked like a lot of the things I like about Dansby rubbed off on Robertson.
Danny Shelton in round 1 sounds better and better to me every day...
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Not sure what bull rush you refer to Kruger having under Horton. All he would do in 13 would attack the outside shoulder, false step inside then try to beat the tackle outside again. Most of the time it never worked. Pettine asked him to attack the outside shoulder and then setup his inside step. It worked. Kruger took a step forward as a pass rusher this year and it wasn't in just the sack column.
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Not sure what bull rush you refer to Kruger having under Horton. All he would do in 13 would attack the outside shoulder, false step inside then try to beat the tackle outside again. Most of the time it never worked. Pettine asked him to attack the outside shoulder and then setup his inside step. It worked. Kruger took a step forward as a pass rusher this year and it wasn't in just the sack column.
Not sure what bull rush you refer to Kruger having under Horton. All he would do in 13 would attack the outside shoulder, false step inside then try to beat the tackle outside again. Most of the time it never worked. Pettine asked him to attack the outside shoulder and then setup his inside step. It worked. Kruger took a step forward as a pass rusher this year and it wasn't in just the sack column.
Who said anything about Horton wanting Kruger to bullrush? We were talking about 2014.
The man on the edge of the defense has a lot of responsibility; especially outside contain where maintaining outside leverage is a must. Were there some occasional rip moves or swim moves used when we faced a stationary pocket passer? Probably. The importance of taking a bullrush to the depth of a QB dropback is if a QB tries to scramble inside of it, there's usually a defensive teammate or 2 ready to pounce on him. If a QB chooses to go outside when Kruger gets this depth - he can't do it without bellying back deeper. That allows time for other pass rushers in pursuit to get there or cause the QB to throw it away. It's pretty sound in my opinion.
Here's a link that shows some 2014 Kruger highlights. About halfway through the 2 minute video - there's a really good textbook bullrush against Pittsburgh where Kruger ends up sacking the QB. http://prod.www.browns.clubs.nfl.com/media-center/videos/Best-of-2014-Paul-Kruger/e8fe4991-0fb9-4642-ad4a-ae3754faa297
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
im very surprised by Dansby's PFF rating. He looked out of place and consistently in the wrong gap all season long...just like all our LB'ers.
im very surprised by Dansby's PFF rating. He looked out of place and consistently in the wrong gap all season long...just like all our LB'ers.
Lets re-qualify that rating, cause Im not saying Dansby was great against the run(just not terrible)(and not really THE guy who's responsible)....and my point on his rating is that he is great at defensing the pass lanes, so thats where Pettine used him most(even though he's a MLB)......
His run D rating was +3.2, which is not great...just ok.....(though still better than the other LB's)
1) i'm not gonna accept the argument, if our run D sucks again, that the d line isn't getting the job done.
2) You can't make the argument that one OL makes it to the 2nd level that oh well I guess that neutralizes our whole interior run defense
3) And i'm sorry but from what I saw Dansby never made his way through the redwoods. DQ did it all the time, "maybe" DQ was better side to side than up the middle.
4) I don't know if our scheme was putting them in different positions on those plays or what, but watch any of the good defense's in the NFL and you see their inside LB'ers flashing through the lineman as they make their way to the sideline.
1) Why?.....it's pretty clear they weren't getting the job done.....crystal clear, actually...
2) I've been watching the coaches film and can guarantee you it's WAY MORE than one OL getting to the second level(consistently too). I see ZERO Browns DL taking a double team or occupying bodies....and I see 2 or 3 OL unoccupied or second level on almost every play....and those LB's cannot consistently beat 2-3 OL on every play.....
3) Dansby and DQ are completely different players, with opposite skill sets. Pettine wanted Dansby for his coverage capabilities and DQ has none. So, It keeps coming back to what you perceive these guys should be doing vs what Pettine is askng them to do....
4) Thats it!....it's all scheme....and the Browns base defense is really a nickle.....and it asks the LB's to do things that traditional D's dont.....I will be posting some alignment stuff(soon) to help visualize what Pettines doing....cause it aint traditional everyday 3-4 or 4-3 football....
1) I know what i saw at the beginning of last season before the injuries started...i just dont know why i was seeing it.
2) If i had all 22 access then "maybe" i could see something that the browns are doing with their ilb'ers that no other 3-4 team is doing...thats entirely possible.
3) When it comes to pro level football schemes i fully admit im lost in the tall weeds.
1) Yeah, but the injuries started immediately.....by game 3, we had lost Ruben and Hughes....(thats 2 outta 3 starters)...
2) The Browns are doing a lot with their LB's that no other 3-4 is doing.....(really, we are NOT a 3-4 team)....we almost always use 4-2-5 and 3-3-5 base nickle defenses.....almost every play(run/pass it doesn't matter).....and the personnel switches up so severely, that it's hard to recognize who's playing where sometimes......
But, I can tell you that our OLB's are really just DE's on a 5 man line(85% plus)....and our SS is really a MLB......and Dansby lines up and acts like Mike. but is really Will.....and it's all designed to confuse opposing offenses(and us fans too, I think)...
I think a lot of the data matches the eye ball test.
1) It would be interesting to find out how they differentiate the success vrs the run for the OLBers. For example, when Kruger does his bullrush through the man - he does 1 thing I really like. He usually gets it to the depth of the QB dropback or handoff. Consequently, he maintains outside leverage/contain which turns the ballcarrier up inside toward pursuit.
2) I'm afraid you're right about Des Bryant. He hasn't been the same since he had the heart valve procedure. Then he had wrist surgery in 2014, which probably meant he played through a lot of pain.
3) Karlos Dansby has great first step instinct. Not only that but he always shows up extremely well prepared. When he went down, Craig Robertson really stepped up and played well. It looked like a lot of the things I like about Dansby rubbed off on Robertson.
1) I think what you describe here is Pettines whole run D plan.....by implementing a 5(or 6) man line, he is eliminating 2 LB's that would normally be back to play the run.....so Sheard & Kruger are only responsible for sealing the edges and funneling that runner into the middle....where there are 3 more DL waiting.....and those guys are the intended run stoppers...so, with coverage duties assigned to one MLB, there is usually only one other LB available to pick up the gaps.....
and if there are 1 - 2 or 3 OL unoccupied and available(and there were consistently), then that LB gets leveled everytime....
glad to see someone else saw the same things from kruger. This is exactly why im not that high on so called stats because i dont think they reflect alot of intangibles. Krugers bull rush was infact better under horton...pets staff had krug drop some lbs to fit their scheme better. He had more sacks this year so on the surface it sounds like a win but im not so sure. I think a few of those extra sacks were because of the secondary giving our rush that extra second to get home. Kruger missed alot of sacks in hortons D, imo, because qb's could get rid of the ball in less than 2 seconds and still gouge our pass defense.
Plus, Kruges got a number of crumbs from Sheard....who's pressure pushed a lot of plays his way.....
and the other teams liked to run at Kruger too, cause that edge was much easier to break....and, when broken, Kirksey and Robertson were not as quick to cover, as Dansby and Mingo seemed to be....
So, in the end, I m not saying our LB's were GREAT.....but they didn't suck and, with a good line, would be more than adequate....
And, if I had to say any of them played poorly, Id say it was Robertson/Kirksey who were the weak links.....followed by Kruger, who seems fairly one dimensional......
And that Pettine doesn't use "conventional practices" with these guys.....Dansby is for coverage and kind of a spy......Kruger rushes the passer.....Robertson & Kirksey play the run more.....Mingo covers and rushes......all specialists with a specific job.....and not really an "every man to the ball" type of mentality.....
Anyhow.....will be posting Pettines crazy alignments later today .....or soon...
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mudfly did a good job with his analysis not taking anything away from him. My only issue is i dont really know the nuances of how alot of those stats are compiled. Alot of it i guarantee is sketchy and they know it ...its compiled mainly for fantasy league honks who need something with numbers to tell them things that people who played can see for themselves. I know what i saw at the beginning of last season before the injuries started...i just dont know why i was seeing it. If i had all 22 access then "maybe" i could see something that the browns are doing with their ilb'ers that no other 3-4 team is doing...thats entirely possible. When it comes to pro level football schemes i fully admit im lost in the tall weeds. Especially at the more skill positions. In the trenches though things are a little simpler and its more of a "beat ur man" environment. But i saw right away what the staff started to do with our olb'ers in the run game midway through the season that none of u picked up on...and it coincided with our run losing edge containment. So iknow a little about what im talking about and when i read something i wasnt aware of i try to go read up on it cause its fun to actually comprehend the nuances of the game as they happen infront of u and not just be a drooling idiot or s neckbeard stats homo. So i will go read up on precisely these run stats are compuled and yes rest assured that for at least a couple games i will rewinding alot of plays and trying to see exactly whick cocksucker was just responsible for that b gap handoff that just went for 10 yds.Too bad someone did not do an analysis of our run D...If you are saying that you are going to DVR and breakdown every game, then good... I look forward to your write ups.However, if you are going to peddle your anecdotal game impressions, half of them live and in person, as analysis, then don't bother. Even were you disciplined enough to not "watch the game", you simply cannot analyze 3 DL and 4 LB every play in two or fewer viewings, and then remember 70-odd plays hours later when you get to a PC.Sorry... can't be done...
Alot of it i guarantee is sketchy and they know it ...its compiled mainly for fantasy league honks who need something with numbers to tell them things that people who played can see for themselves.
So i will go read up on precisely these run stats are compuled and yes rest assured that for at least a couple games i will rewinding alot of plays and trying to see exactly whick cocksucker was just responsible for that b gap handoff that just went for 10 yds.
And if you do that, then you likely fail to credit players that fulfilled their assignments. And sooner or later one you miss will be that same cocksucker you caught earlier. It's as much about methodology as it is football knowledge.
As for the compiled stats, if they are breaking down D for fantasy players, then they are wasting a good deal of time and money.
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Not sure what bull rush you refer to Kruger having under Horton. All he would do in 13 would attack the outside shoulder, false step inside then try to beat the tackle outside again. Most of the time it never worked. Pettine asked him to attack the outside shoulder and then setup his inside step. It worked. Kruger took a step forward as a pass rusher this year and it wasn't in just the sack column.
Who said anything about Horton wanting Kruger to bullrush? We were talking about 2014.
The man on the edge of the defense has a lot of responsibility; especially outside contain where maintaining outside leverage is a must. Were there some occasional rip moves or swim moves used when we faced a stationary pocket passer? Probably. The importance of taking a bullrush to the depth of a QB dropback is if a QB tries to scramble inside of it, there's usually a defensive teammate or 2 ready to pounce on him. If a QB chooses to go outside when Kruger gets this depth - he can't do it without bellying back deeper. That allows time for other pass rushers in pursuit to get there or cause the QB to throw it away. It's pretty sound in my opinion.
Here's a link that shows some 2014 Kruger highlights. About halfway through the 2 minute video - there's a really good textbook bullrush against Pittsburgh where Kruger ends up sacking the QB. http://prod.www.browns.clubs.nfl.com/media-center/videos/Best-of-2014-Paul-Kruger/e8fe4991-0fb9-4642-ad4a-ae3754faa297
Who said anything about Horton wanting Kruger to bullrush? We were talking about 2014.
The man on the edge of the defense has a lot of responsibility; especially outside contain where maintaining outside leverage is a must. Were there some occasional rip moves or swim moves used when we faced a stationary pocket passer? Probably. The importance of taking a bullrush to the depth of a QB dropback is if a QB tries to scramble inside of it, there's usually a defensive teammate or 2 ready to pounce on him. If a QB chooses to go outside when Kruger gets this depth - he can't do it without bellying back deeper. That allows time for other pass rushers in pursuit to get there or cause the QB to throw it away. It's pretty sound in my opinion.
Here's a link that shows some 2014 Kruger highlights. About halfway through the 2 minute video - there's a really good textbook bullrush against Pittsburgh where Kruger ends up sacking the QB. http://prod.www.browns.clubs.nfl.com/media-center/videos/Best-of-2014-Paul-Kruger/e8fe4991-0fb9-4642-ad4a-ae3754faa297
The post directly above mine.
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Nice job with all that about Pettine Mud. Looking forward to your Pettine's crazy alignments. One of my fave alignment/adjustments was when he tightened up the splits on the interior of the DLINE (kicking the 5 techniques in much closer to NT) to stout up vrs the run. LOVED that. The only head scratcher was putting the cement shoes of Phil Taylor outside. On top of that, if he has to chase 1 guy more than a few yards on any play - he's sucking gas and worthless the next few plays. If he was playing through or around an injury - even more reason to question why he was wanted outside unless our volume of injuries gave us no other choice.
FWIW, just in the 2 minute video link I shared - Kruges chased a lot of action right into Sheard's hands too. I really liked what I saw from him overall in 2014 so that was why I wondered what criteria PFF took into account when rating 34 OLBers vrs the run.
Interesting point about the conventional practices. I liked how they started to find better ways to use Mingo. I saw a delayed X-stunt where he lined up at his OLBer spot and attacked the offense virtually untouched through the Guard-Center gap. Great design and disguise for a guy that can close like that.
I gotta admit I was kind of tough on Mingo early on because he was a first round draft pick. A few things I never have to worry about with him though are:
1) Relentless hustle (although sometimes it's to the extent of overpursuit that experience can conquer)
2) Coachability (I think how they used him defending the pass at times exemplifies this - I like the idea of getting his wing span and speed in coverage/zones0
3) Toughness. (Played through a painful shoulder injury)
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Nice job with all that about Pettine Mud. Looking forward to your Pettine's crazy alignments. One of my fave alignment/adjustments was when he tightened up the splits on the interior of the DLINE (kicking the 5 techniques in much closer to NT) to stout up vrs the run. LOVED that. The only head scratcher was putting the cement shoes of Phil Taylor outside. On top of that, if he has to chase 1 guy more than a few yards on any play - he's sucking gas and worthless the next few plays. If he was playing through or around an injury - even more reason to question why he was wanted outside unless our volume of injuries gave us no other choice.
FWIW, just in the 2 minute video link I shared - Kruges chased a lot of action right into Sheard's hands too. I really liked what I saw from him overall in 2014 so that was why I wondered what criteria PFF took into account when rating 34 OLBers vrs the run.
Interesting point about the conventional practices. I liked how they started to find better ways to use Mingo. I saw a delayed X-stunt where he lined up at his OLBer spot and attacked the offense virtually untouched through the Guard-Center gap. Great design and disguise for a guy that can close like that.
I gotta admit I was kind of tough on Mingo early on because he was a first round draft pick. A few things I never have to worry about with him though are:
1) Relentless hustle (although sometimes it's to the extent of overpursuit that experience can conquer)
2) Coachability (I think how they used him defending the pass at times exemplifies this - I like the idea of getting his wing span and speed in coverage/zones0
3) Toughness. (Played through a painful shoulder injury)
Ok....in "trying" to understand Pettines defense, Ive watched and watched and watched.....and, lemme tell ya, dude mixes it up....but here are a few things I have concluded, that differentiate it from your traditional 3-4 or 4-3 defense....
a) I think it is designed to accomplish 2 basic things......stop the pass first......and not allow any long plays.....thats it.
It is very aggressive upfront and at the top....but the middle(LB zone) is free.....so, our goal is to get the QB and/or shut down the receiving corp....but we do let them have the short pass or run.....but never let them have the long pass or game breaker run....c) almost all our defensive sets are based upon the Nickle or Dime.....every single one.....
In my interpretation, the OLBs(Sheard Kruger) really are just DE's on a 5 man line.....90% of the time.....2 point/3 point doesn't matter, because they always play forward and rarely ever drop(Sheard did sometimes).....we also play a 6 man line frequently...
4-2-5 nickle appears to be our base set(easily Pettines favorite core set).....and Pettine uses it against the run over and over and over again....(Im gonna guess we use a variation of this on 80% of our plays)(with mixed up personnel and position changes, but it all ends up the same)....
In this "most common" set, we have a 5 man line...backed by 2 MLB's(one of whom will usually take the RB or TE....leaving just one LB to protect against the run)(and the 4 DB's spacing the field to prevent to "long play").....so, in this set, it's really that 5 man line being asked to attack and stop the run(or hurry the QB).....the MLB 's are just clean up....
He also uses what looks like a 3-3-5 nickle, but then drops/adds guys on the fly...and they do this a lot, where they line up in a standard 3-3-5 nickle, but at the snap, they will drop or send LBs to really end up playing a much more aggressive set....out of this set they will do the following...
For pass, they often switch to a 4-1-6......blitzing 1 MLB and dropping the other into coverage.......I think this set is the one most responsible for our league leading interception rate.....those 6 rushers force the bad pass, while our D back field is pretty evenly spread(covered)....(and I will predict that IF we ge a monster pass rusher and increase our sack rate, then our INT rate will drop on a similar scale)(IE...qb's on the ground cant throw)....but, again, if the O chooses to run and they get past that front, then there is no one there.....
Gotta say I saw very little "traditional" type sets....at least in the middle( and with the LBs)...but I did see a lot of people switching roles and going the opposite direction you'd think they should.....
Examples would be Whitner coming up and playing the LB, while Mingo or Dansby take a pasing route....and it often looks like they are going the wrong way at the snap, but ends up being a switch....(and I think it confuses QB's who think they know where the MLB or SS "should be" )....
I also saw a lot of run responsibility placed upon the CB/S in these sets....and some weird switch ups there too.....Example would be having 6 DB's in, with 1 or 2 covering the slot or TE.....then switching up and attacking the line DB's, while covering the slot and TE with your LB's....and again, in a run situation, the LB's are not the primary stoppers here....
So....4-2-5.....3-3-5.....4-1-6.......are really the bulk of what Pettine is doing. Almost every defensive set comes from these basics. He's just playing the pass first (always) (in a pass happy league)...and giving them the short stuff, but rarely if ever the big play.
I prefer that to Horton, who gambled allowing them the big O play against us making the big D play....
Nice job with all that about Pettine Mud. Looking forward to your Pettine's crazy alignments. One of my fave alignment/adjustments was when he tightened up the splits on the interior of the DLINE (kicking the 5 techniques in much closer to NT) to stout up vrs the run. LOVED that. The only head scratcher was putting the cement shoes of Phil Taylor outside. On top of that, if he has to chase 1 guy more than a few yards on any play - he's sucking gas and worthless the next few plays. If he was playing through or around an injury - even more reason to question why he was wanted outside unless our volume of injuries gave us no other choice.
FWIW, just in the 2 minute video link I shared - Kruges chased a lot of action right into Sheard's hands too. I really liked what I saw from him overall in 2014 so that was why I wondered what criteria PFF took into account when rating 34 OLBers vrs the run.
Interesting point about the conventional practices. I liked how they started to find better ways to use Mingo. I saw a delayed X-stunt where he lined up at his OLBer spot and attacked the offense virtually untouched through the Guard-Center gap. Great design and disguise for a guy that can close like that.
I gotta admit I was kind of tough on Mingo early on because he was a first round draft pick. A few things I never have to worry about with him though are:
1) Relentless hustle (although sometimes it's to the extent of overpursuit that experience can conquer)
2) Coachability (I think how they used him defending the pass at times exemplifies this - I like the idea of getting his wing span and speed in coverage/zones0
3) Toughness. (Played through a painful shoulder injury)
Gotta say....Ive been promoting & defending Taylor, but did re-watch the all 22 on the N.O. game last night, which was one of our worst(early on).....bottom line is in that game Taylor, Rubin and Bryant were completely owned all night long....spent the night on their butts....while the NO lineman just stood around cause their job was so easy....
CF4L, re-watch this game if you'd like to see:
1) Dansby flying all over the place making plays
2) Our D line being man handled
3) The second level flooded with offensive linemen on run plays
And, fluges, Im getting there with Mingo too. He looks MUCH better on the second or third looks, than he did initially. Plus, now I have a better feel for what he was sup[posed to be doing, and he seems to do hs job......and, yes, he is guilty of being fast and over shooting the target.....but I like the motor and talent....he'll figure out the tackling part eventually....
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Not sure what bull rush you refer to Kruger having under Horton. All he would do in 13 would attack the outside shoulder, false step inside then try to beat the tackle outside again. Most of the time it never worked. Pettine asked him to attack the outside shoulder and then setup his inside step. It worked. Kruger took a step forward as a pass rusher this year and it wasn't in just the sack column.
Not sure what bull rush you refer to Kruger having under Horton. All he would do in 13 would attack the outside shoulder, false step inside then try to beat the tackle outside again. Most of the time it never worked. Pettine asked him to attack the outside shoulder and then setup his inside step. It worked. Kruger took a step forward as a pass rusher this year and it wasn't in just the sack column.
For the first 5 games he had a very good bulrush. I say 5 games cause it was the Detroit game where the O line coaches started having their right tackles setup for his bull and basically say if you can beat me to the outside so be it. Early in that season Kruger was depositing a lot of good tackles right in their QB's jock. Unfortunately the ball was already out but Kruger was setting a short timer with his bull. Kruger put his hands down ALOT more in 13 and he bull's better with his hand down obviously. He had more sacks last year but I think that's cause our secondary was vastly improved, he still has problems going around the edge. If he could learn how to power edge rush....he's probably left 20 or more sacks on the board throughout his career because of that. In 13 tackles would stick their butts straight back on the snap and load up for his bull..he would try to go the outside but the tackles would just lean on him and push him right off the arc cause he's too upright. If he would only learn how to get low and use more of his natural leverage cause he's a big strong mook....he'd be a 15 sack guy minimum. If I was the LB coach i'd have him watching nothing but Mathis and Matthews tape the whole offseason because they are two of the best at getting low and carving out the edge.
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Ok....in "trying" to understand Pettines defense, Ive watched and watched and watched.....and, lemme tell ya, dude mixes it up....but here are a few things I have concluded, that differentiate it from your traditional 3-4 or 4-3 defense....
a) I think it is designed to accomplish 2 basic things......stop the pass first......and not allow any long plays.....thats it.
It is very aggressive upfront and at the top....but the middle(LB zone) is free.....so, our goal is to get the QB and/or shut down the receiving corp....but we do let them have the short pass or run.....but never let them have the long pass or game breaker run....c) almost all our defensive sets are based upon the Nickle or Dime.....every single one.....
In my interpretation, the OLBs(Sheard Kruger) really are just DE's on a 5 man line.....90% of the time.....2 point/3 point doesn't matter, because they always play forward and rarely ever drop(Sheard did sometimes).....we also play a 6 man line frequently...
4-2-5 nickle appears to be our base set(easily Pettines favorite core set).....and Pettine uses it against the run over and over and over again....(Im gonna guess we use a variation of this on 80% of our plays)(with mixed up personnel and position changes, but it all ends up the same)....
In this "most common" set, we have a 5 man line...backed by 2 MLB's(one of whom will usually take the RB or TE....leaving just one LB to protect against the run)(and the 4 DB's spacing the field to prevent to "long play").....so, in this set, it's really that 5 man line being asked to attack and stop the run(or hurry the QB).....the MLB 's are just clean up....
He also uses what looks like a 3-3-5 nickle, but then drops/adds guys on the fly...and they do this a lot, where they line up in a standard 3-3-5 nickle, but at the snap, they will drop or send LBs to really end up playing a much more aggressive set....out of this set they will do the following...
For pass, they often switch to a 4-1-6......blitzing 1 MLB and dropping the other into coverage.......I think this set is the one most responsible for our league leading interception rate.....those 6 rushers force the bad pass, while our D back field is pretty evenly spread(covered)....(and I will predict that IF we ge a monster pass rusher and increase our sack rate, then our INT rate will drop on a similar scale)(IE...qb's on the ground cant throw)....but, again, if the O chooses to run and they get past that front, then there is no one there.....
Gotta say I saw very little "traditional" type sets....at least in the middle( and with the LBs)...but I did see a lot of people switching roles and going the opposite direction you'd think they should.....
Examples would be Whitner coming up and playing the LB, while Mingo or Dansby take a pasing route....and it often looks like they are going the wrong way at the snap, but ends up being a switch....(and I think it confuses QB's who think they know where the MLB or SS "should be" )....
I also saw a lot of run responsibility placed upon the CB/S in these sets....and some weird switch ups there too.....Example would be having 6 DB's in, with 1 or 2 covering the slot or TE.....then switching up and attacking the line DB's, while covering the slot and TE with your LB's....and again, in a run situation, the LB's are not the primary stoppers here....
So....4-2-5.....3-3-5.....4-1-6.......are really the bulk of what Pettine is doing. Almost every defensive set comes from these basics. He's just playing the pass first (always) (in a pass happy league)...and giving them the short stuff, but rarely if ever the big play.
I prefer that to Horton, who gambled allowing them the big O play against us making the big D play....
Nice job with all that about Pettine Mud. Looking forward to your Pettine's crazy alignments. One of my fave alignment/adjustments was when he tightened up the splits on the interior of the DLINE (kicking the 5 techniques in much closer to NT) to stout up vrs the run. LOVED that. The only head scratcher was putting the cement shoes of Phil Taylor outside. On top of that, if he has to chase 1 guy more than a few yards on any play - he's sucking gas and worthless the next few plays. If he was playing through or around an injury - even more reason to question why he was wanted outside unless our volume of injuries gave us no other choice.
FWIW, just in the 2 minute video link I shared - Kruges chased a lot of action right into Sheard's hands too. I really liked what I saw from him overall in 2014 so that was why I wondered what criteria PFF took into account when rating 34 OLBers vrs the run.
Interesting point about the conventional practices. I liked how they started to find better ways to use Mingo. I saw a delayed X-stunt where he lined up at his OLBer spot and attacked the offense virtually untouched through the Guard-Center gap. Great design and disguise for a guy that can close like that.
I gotta admit I was kind of tough on Mingo early on because he was a first round draft pick. A few things I never have to worry about with him though are:
1) Relentless hustle (although sometimes it's to the extent of overpursuit that experience can conquer)
2) Coachability (I think how they used him defending the pass at times exemplifies this - I like the idea of getting his wing span and speed in coverage/zones0
3) Toughness. (Played through a painful shoulder injury)
Gotta say....Ive been promoting & defending Taylor, but did re-watch the all 22 on the N.O. game last night, which was one of our worst(early on).....bottom line is in that game Taylor, Rubin and Bryant were completely owned all night long....spent the night on their butts....while the NO lineman just stood around cause their job was so easy....
CF4L, re-watch this game if you'd like to see:
1) Dansby flying all over the place making plays
2) Our D line being man handled
3) The second level flooded with offensive linemen on run plays
And, fluges, Im getting there with Mingo too. He looks MUCH better on the second or third looks, than he did initially. Plus, now I have a better feel for what he was sup[posed to be doing, and he seems to do hs job......and, yes, he is guilty of being fast and over shooting the target.....but I like the motor and talent....he'll figure out the tackling part eventually....
good job with this, but I have to say I don't like it. Not one bit. I get it, it's a passing league blah blah blah....but we saw last year how a promising season got nerfed by awful run defense. And they stopped that 5 man front somewhere mid season didn't they? I distinctly remember seeing this two DL and two standing OLB'ers most of the season. I dislike that as well. We're best fit for a 4-3 but if we're gonna stick with this shouldn't we putting down 3 DL and 1 DE/OLB at the line with the WIll back (mingo) hanging back a few yds in that grey is he gonna blitz or not area? And shouldn't we be protecting that Will back by shifting the 5 tech out like SF does a lot with Justin Smith?
This has been talked about by other people but if we could convert Armonty to do what Kruger does, then we might not need to take an OLB'er with the 12th pick. We'll have our two hybrids that don't need protected by the DL, then maybe we can take a smaller guy somewhere in the 240's-250's that's maybe a ltitle bit bigger and stronger than Mingo but can still do cover work. That way we're covered on matchups. Fuck i'm starting to think about Khalil Mack again. Perfect guy to what I just described. Him and MIngo would sub in for each other and some days a certain matchup would favor one or the other. We need to find another Khalil Mack is basically what i'm saying, shouldn't be too difficult right? lol
Ok....in "trying" to understand Pettines defense, Ive watched and watched and watched.....and, lemme tell ya, dude mixes it up....but here are a few things I have concluded, that differentiate it from your traditional 3-4 or 4-3 defense....
a) I think it is designed to accomplish 2 basic things......stop the pass first......and not allow any long plays.....thats it.
It is very aggressive upfront and at the top....but the middle(LB zone) is free.....so, our goal is to get the QB and/or shut down the receiving corp....but we do let them have the short pass or run.....but never let them have the long pass or game breaker run....c) almost all our defensive sets are based upon the Nickle or Dime.....every single one.....
In my interpretation, the OLBs(Sheard Kruger) really are just DE's on a 5 man line.....90% of the time.....2 point/3 point doesn't matter, because they always play forward and rarely ever drop(Sheard did sometimes).....we also play a 6 man line frequently...
4-2-5 nickle appears to be our base set(easily Pettines favorite core set).....and Pettine uses it against the run over and over and over again....(Im gonna guess we use a variation of this on 80% of our plays)(with mixed up personnel and position changes, but it all ends up the same)....
In this "most common" set, we have a 5 man line...backed by 2 MLB's(one of whom will usually take the RB or TE....leaving just one LB to protect against the run)(and the 4 DB's spacing the field to prevent to "long play").....so, in this set, it's really that 5 man line being asked to attack and stop the run(or hurry the QB).....the MLB 's are just clean up....
He also uses what looks like a 3-3-5 nickle, but then drops/adds guys on the fly...and they do this a lot, where they line up in a standard 3-3-5 nickle, but at the snap, they will drop or send LBs to really end up playing a much more aggressive set....out of this set they will do the following...
For pass, they often switch to a 4-1-6......blitzing 1 MLB and dropping the other into coverage.......I think this set is the one most responsible for our league leading interception rate.....those 6 rushers force the bad pass, while our D back field is pretty evenly spread(covered)....(and I will predict that IF we ge a monster pass rusher and increase our sack rate, then our INT rate will drop on a similar scale)(IE...qb's on the ground cant throw)....but, again, if the O chooses to run and they get past that front, then there is no one there.....
Gotta say I saw very little "traditional" type sets....at least in the middle( and with the LBs)...but I did see a lot of people switching roles and going the opposite direction you'd think they should.....
Examples would be Whitner coming up and playing the LB, while Mingo or Dansby take a pasing route....and it often looks like they are going the wrong way at the snap, but ends up being a switch....(and I think it confuses QB's who think they know where the MLB or SS "should be" )....
I also saw a lot of run responsibility placed upon the CB/S in these sets....and some weird switch ups there too.....Example would be having 6 DB's in, with 1 or 2 covering the slot or TE.....then switching up and attacking the line DB's, while covering the slot and TE with your LB's....and again, in a run situation, the LB's are not the primary stoppers here....
So....4-2-5.....3-3-5.....4-1-6.......are really the bulk of what Pettine is doing. Almost every defensive set comes from these basics. He's just playing the pass first (always) (in a pass happy league)...and giving them the short stuff, but rarely if ever the big play.
I prefer that to Horton, who gambled allowing them the big O play against us making the big D play....
Gotta say....Ive been promoting & defending Taylor, but did re-watch the all 22 on the N.O. game last night, which was one of our worst(early on).....bottom line is in that game Taylor, Rubin and Bryant were completely owned all night long....spent the night on their butts....while the NO lineman just stood around cause their job was so easy....
CF4L, re-watch this game if you'd like to see:
1) Dansby flying all over the place making plays
2) Our D line being man handled
3) The second level flooded with offensive linemen on run plays
And Im getting there with Mingo too. He looks MUCH better on the second or third looks, than he did initially. Plus, now I have a better feel for what he was sup[posed to be doing, and he seems to do hs job......and, yes, he is guilty of being fast and over shooting the target.....but I like the motor and talent....he'll figure out the tackling part eventually....
-
good job with this, but I have to say I don't like it. Not one bit. I get it, it's a passing league blah blah blah....but we saw last year how a promising season got nerfed by awful run defense. And they stopped that 5 man front somewhere mid season didn't they? I distinctly remember seeing this two DL and two standing OLB'ers most of the season. I dislike that as well. We're best fit for a 4-3 but if we're gonna stick with this shouldn't we putting down 3 DL and 1 DE/OLB at the line with the WIll back (mingo) hanging back a few yds in that grey is he gonna blitz or not area? And shouldn't we be protecting that Will back by shifting the 5 tech out like SF does a lot with Justin Smith?
This has been talked about by other people but if we could convert Armonty to do what Kruger does, then we might not need to take an OLB'er with the 12th pick. We'll have our two hybrids that don't need protected by the DL, then maybe we can take a smaller guy somewhere in the 240's-250's that's maybe a ltitle bit bigger and stronger than Mingo but can still do cover work. That way we're covered on matchups. Fuck i'm starting to think about Khalil Mack again. Perfect guy to what I just described. Him and MIngo would sub in for each other and some days a certain matchup would favor one or the other. We need to find another Khalil Mack is basically what i'm saying, shouldn't be too difficult right? lol
Ok....in "trying" to understand Pettines defense, Ive watched and watched and watched.....and, lemme tell ya, dude mixes it up....but here are a few things I have concluded, that differentiate it from your traditional 3-4 or 4-3 defense....
a) I think it is designed to accomplish 2 basic things......stop the pass first......and not allow any long plays.....thats it.
It is very aggressive upfront and at the top....but the middle(LB zone) is free.....so, our goal is to get the QB and/or shut down the receiving corp....but we do let them have the short pass or run.....but never let them have the long pass or game breaker run....c) almost all our defensive sets are based upon the Nickle or Dime.....every single one.....
In my interpretation, the OLBs(Sheard Kruger) really are just DE's on a 5 man line.....90% of the time.....2 point/3 point doesn't matter, because they always play forward and rarely ever drop(Sheard did sometimes).....we also play a 6 man line frequently...
4-2-5 nickle appears to be our base set(easily Pettines favorite core set).....and Pettine uses it against the run over and over and over again....(Im gonna guess we use a variation of this on 80% of our plays)(with mixed up personnel and position changes, but it all ends up the same)....
In this "most common" set, we have a 5 man line...backed by 2 MLB's(one of whom will usually take the RB or TE....leaving just one LB to protect against the run)(and the 4 DB's spacing the field to prevent to "long play").....so, in this set, it's really that 5 man line being asked to attack and stop the run(or hurry the QB).....the MLB 's are just clean up....
He also uses what looks like a 3-3-5 nickle, but then drops/adds guys on the fly...and they do this a lot, where they line up in a standard 3-3-5 nickle, but at the snap, they will drop or send LBs to really end up playing a much more aggressive set....out of this set they will do the following...
For pass, they often switch to a 4-1-6......blitzing 1 MLB and dropping the other into coverage.......I think this set is the one most responsible for our league leading interception rate.....those 6 rushers force the bad pass, while our D back field is pretty evenly spread(covered)....(and I will predict that IF we ge a monster pass rusher and increase our sack rate, then our INT rate will drop on a similar scale)(IE...qb's on the ground cant throw)....but, again, if the O chooses to run and they get past that front, then there is no one there.....
Gotta say I saw very little "traditional" type sets....at least in the middle( and with the LBs)...but I did see a lot of people switching roles and going the opposite direction you'd think they should.....
Examples would be Whitner coming up and playing the LB, while Mingo or Dansby take a pasing route....and it often looks like they are going the wrong way at the snap, but ends up being a switch....(and I think it confuses QB's who think they know where the MLB or SS "should be" )....
I also saw a lot of run responsibility placed upon the CB/S in these sets....and some weird switch ups there too.....Example would be having 6 DB's in, with 1 or 2 covering the slot or TE.....then switching up and attacking the line DB's, while covering the slot and TE with your LB's....and again, in a run situation, the LB's are not the primary stoppers here....
So....4-2-5.....3-3-5.....4-1-6.......are really the bulk of what Pettine is doing. Almost every defensive set comes from these basics. He's just playing the pass first (always) (in a pass happy league)...and giving them the short stuff, but rarely if ever the big play.
I prefer that to Horton, who gambled allowing them the big O play against us making the big D play....
Gotta say....Ive been promoting & defending Taylor, but did re-watch the all 22 on the N.O. game last night, which was one of our worst(early on).....bottom line is in that game Taylor, Rubin and Bryant were completely owned all night long....spent the night on their butts....while the NO lineman just stood around cause their job was so easy....
CF4L, re-watch this game if you'd like to see:
1) Dansby flying all over the place making plays
2) Our D line being man handled
3) The second level flooded with offensive linemen on run plays
And Im getting there with Mingo too. He looks MUCH better on the second or third looks, than he did initially. Plus, now I have a better feel for what he was sup[posed to be doing, and he seems to do hs job......and, yes, he is guilty of being fast and over shooting the target.....but I like the motor and talent....he'll figure out the tackling part eventually....
good job with this, but I have to say I don't like it. Not one bit. I get it, it's a passing league blah blah blah....but we saw last year how a promising season got nerfed by awful run defense. And they stopped that 5 man front somewhere mid season didn't they? I distinctly remember seeing this two DL and two standing OLB'ers most of the season. I dislike that as well.
We need to find another Khalil Mack is basically what i'm saying, shouldn't be too difficult right? lol
They did start to stand Sheard & Kruger up more....but they still seemed committed to the rush and very rarely, if ever, dropped back or stunted....
At the same time, they also started bring Whitner up a lot more...but I haven't got all my notes sorted on era 2 yet(which was the period when we had it right and were stopping the run real well for 6-7 games)...Ill try to get it up tomorrow .......
And Im with you....Mack, Kuechly and guys like that are great....but uber rare and very much the exception....most teams gotta make hay with who they got and just try to exploit the one or 2 tools their LB's might have.....
With Pettine....Ill give it another year to see where it goes....for a while his system looked terrible, then it looked great, then it looked terrible again.....but based upon his track record, I think he'll get it sorted out.....
And in the end, we are #1 against the pass and the #9 scoring D, so I think any improvement in the run D will help a lot....
-
Ok....in "trying" to understand Pettines defense, Ive watched and watched and watched.....and, lemme tell ya, dude mixes it up....but here are a few things I have concluded, that differentiate it from your traditional 3-4 or 4-3 defense....
a) I think it is designed to accomplish 2 basic things......stop the pass first......and not allow any long plays.....thats it.
It is very aggressive upfront and at the top....but the middle(LB zone) is free.....so, our goal is to get the QB and/or shut down the receiving corp....but we do let them have the short pass or run.....but never let them have the long pass or game breaker run....c) almost all our defensive sets are based upon the Nickle or Dime.....every single one.....
In my interpretation, the OLBs(Sheard Kruger) really are just DE's on a 5 man line.....90% of the time.....2 point/3 point doesn't matter, because they always play forward and rarely ever drop(Sheard did sometimes).....we also play a 6 man line frequently...
4-2-5 nickle appears to be our base set(easily Pettines favorite core set).....and Pettine uses it against the run over and over and over again....(Im gonna guess we use a variation of this on 80% of our plays)(with mixed up personnel and position changes, but it all ends up the same)....
In this "most common" set, we have a 5 man line...backed by 2 MLB's(one of whom will usually take the RB or TE....leaving just one LB to protect against the run)(and the 4 DB's spacing the field to prevent to "long play").....so, in this set, it's really that 5 man line being asked to attack and stop the run(or hurry the QB).....the MLB 's are just clean up....
He also uses what looks like a 3-3-5 nickle, but then drops/adds guys on the fly...and they do this a lot, where they line up in a standard 3-3-5 nickle, but at the snap, they will drop or send LBs to really end up playing a much more aggressive set....out of this set they will do the following...
For pass, they often switch to a 4-1-6......blitzing 1 MLB and dropping the other into coverage.......I think this set is the one most responsible for our league leading interception rate.....those 6 rushers force the bad pass, while our D back field is pretty evenly spread(covered)....(and I will predict that IF we ge a monster pass rusher and increase our sack rate, then our INT rate will drop on a similar scale)(IE...qb's on the ground cant throw)....but, again, if the O chooses to run and they get past that front, then there is no one there.....
Gotta say I saw very little "traditional" type sets....at least in the middle( and with the LBs)...but I did see a lot of people switching roles and going the opposite direction you'd think they should.....
Examples would be Whitner coming up and playing the LB, while Mingo or Dansby take a pasing route....and it often looks like they are going the wrong way at the snap, but ends up being a switch....(and I think it confuses QB's who think they know where the MLB or SS "should be" )....
I also saw a lot of run responsibility placed upon the CB/S in these sets....and some weird switch ups there too.....Example would be having 6 DB's in, with 1 or 2 covering the slot or TE.....then switching up and attacking the line DB's, while covering the slot and TE with your LB's....and again, in a run situation, the LB's are not the primary stoppers here....
So....4-2-5.....3-3-5.....4-1-6.......are really the bulk of what Pettine is doing. Almost every defensive set comes from these basics. He's just playing the pass first (always) (in a pass happy league)...and giving them the short stuff, but rarely if ever the big play.
I prefer that to Horton, who gambled allowing them the big O play against us making the big D play....
Nice job with all that about Pettine Mud. Looking forward to your Pettine's crazy alignments. One of my fave alignment/adjustments was when he tightened up the splits on the interior of the DLINE (kicking the 5 techniques in much closer to NT) to stout up vrs the run. LOVED that. The only head scratcher was putting the cement shoes of Phil Taylor outside. On top of that, if he has to chase 1 guy more than a few yards on any play - he's sucking gas and worthless the next few plays. If he was playing through or around an injury - even more reason to question why he was wanted outside unless our volume of injuries gave us no other choice.
FWIW, just in the 2 minute video link I shared - Kruges chased a lot of action right into Sheard's hands too. I really liked what I saw from him overall in 2014 so that was why I wondered what criteria PFF took into account when rating 34 OLBers vrs the run.
Interesting point about the conventional practices. I liked how they started to find better ways to use Mingo. I saw a delayed X-stunt where he lined up at his OLBer spot and attacked the offense virtually untouched through the Guard-Center gap. Great design and disguise for a guy that can close like that.
I gotta admit I was kind of tough on Mingo early on because he was a first round draft pick. A few things I never have to worry about with him though are:
1) Relentless hustle (although sometimes it's to the extent of overpursuit that experience can conquer)
2) Coachability (I think how they used him defending the pass at times exemplifies this - I like the idea of getting his wing span and speed in coverage/zones0
3) Toughness. (Played through a painful shoulder injury)
Gotta say....Ive been promoting & defending Taylor, but did re-watch the all 22 on the N.O. game last night, which was one of our worst(early on).....bottom line is in that game Taylor, Rubin and Bryant were completely owned all night long....spent the night on their butts....while the NO lineman just stood around cause their job was so easy....
CF4L, re-watch this game if you'd like to see:
1) Dansby flying all over the place making plays
2) Our D line being man handled
3) The second level flooded with offensive linemen on run plays
And, fluges, Im getting there with Mingo too. He looks MUCH better on the second or third looks, than he did initially. Plus, now I have a better feel for what he was sup[posed to be doing, and he seems to do hs job......and, yes, he is guilty of being fast and over shooting the target.....but I like the motor and talent....he'll figure out the tackling part eventually....
In my interpretation, the OLBs(Sheard Kruger) really are just DE's on a 5 man line.....90% of the time.....2 point/3 point doesn't matter, because they always play forward and rarely ever drop(Sheard did sometimes).....we also play a 6 man line frequently...
So if we get over roster designation "hang-ups", then in essence we play a good deal of 5-2-4 and/ or 5-1-5?
For pass, they often switch to a 4-1-6......blitzing 1 MLB and dropping the other into coverage.......I think this set is the one most responsible for our league leading interception rate.....those 6 rushers force the bad pass, while our D back field is pretty evenly spread(covered)...
Your accounting is now making my head hurt... 2 MLBs in a 4-1-6?
Gotta say....Ive been promoting & defending Taylor, but did re-watch the all 22 on the N.O. game last night, which was one of our worst(early on).....bottom line is in that game Taylor, Rubin and Bryant were completely owned all night long....spent the night on their butts....while the NO lineman just stood around cause their job was so easy....
Any sense that hesitation attributable to thinking about assignments played a role here?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
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