All Time Browns Depth Chart
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Here is a proposed All time Browns Depth Chart taking each position with a starter and a backup from the all time Browns roster:
QB Otto Graham, backup Frank Ryan (over Sipe and Kosar)
FB Marion Motley, backup Mike Pruitt (over Mack)
RB Jim Brown, backup Leroy Kelly
WR 1 Paul Warfield, backup Mac Speedie
WR 2 Dante Lavelli, backup Gary Collins
TE Ozzie Newsome, backup Milt Morin
OT1 Lou Groza, backup Joe Thomas
OT2 Mike MacCormack, backup Dick Shafrath
OG1 Gene Hickerson, backup Robert Jackson
OG2 Joe Delamalleure, backup John Wooten
OC Frank Gatski, backup Tom DeLeone (over Baab, Mack)
DE1 Len Ford, backup Paul Wiggin
DE2 Bill Glass, backup Carl Hairston
DT1 Michael Dean Perry, backup Jerry Sherk
DT2 Walter Johnson, backup Bob Golic
OLB1 Clay Matthews, backup Chip Banks
OLB2 Jim Houston, backup Charlie Hall
MLB1 Bill Willis, backup Vince Costello
MLB2 Mike Johnson, backup Dick Ambrose
CB1 Hanford Dixon, backup Bernie Parrish
CB2 Frank Minnifield, backup Joe Haden
SS Clarence Scott, backup Ross Fichtner
FS Thom Darden, backup Eric Turner
K Lou Groza, backup Don Cockroft (over Phil Dawson)
P Gary Collins, backup Horace Gillom
KR Bobby Mitchell, backup Josh Cribbs
Any substitutions you would like to make?
Italics= HOF
I think some of the selections indicate a quantity of production with the Browns over a shorter, more quality-packed run, which is a good way to go, but If I were doing it "at the peak of his career" of guys that played, say, three years or more with the Browns, then I am starting Sherk over Johnson and Turner over Scott for sure.
And I'm not sure how Mitchell go the kick return job over Cribbs, but that is highway robbery. Mitchell is a HOF, and was a terrific receiver and running back, but Cribbs is probably the best special teams player in NFL history and holds the Browns Punt and KO return records. About 8,500 more KO return yards a Brown than Mitchell.
Zombo
Zombo said:
I think some of the selections indicate a quantity of production with the Browns over a shorter, more quality-packed run, which is a good way to go, but If I were doing it "at the peak of his career" of guys that played, say, three years or more with the Browns, then I am starting Sherk over Johnson and Turner over Scott for sure.
Cannot agree more. Prior to his unfortunate knee injury, Jerry Sherk was the most dominant DT ever to play for us. His four straight Pro-Bowl years stand as testament to that.
Of all the things that do not translate through the years, knee surgery capability has to top the list.
Again, fair argument. (though I am not sure that Lou gets into HOF on basis of his kicking alone)
I know he was designated the FB.....but he was obviously the "Running Back" when he played....that is why I designated him as such. And Leroy may have also been designated a FB as well, no? Ernie Green was the blocking back for JB....despite being designated the HB.
Plus, I put him at RB to get Motley in there.
Lou was in fact a very good OT, but I have no doubt his kicking prowess for the time was his ticket to the hall.
Kelly was always listed as HB. Ernie Green "converted" from HB to FB Kelly's first year as a starter.
Both Motley and Brown were listed as FBs. Both Motley and Brown were clearly the RB when they were on the field. It's your list, and you can do what you want, but to call one a RB so the other can also start is just a reverse engineered contrivance. Instead follow your own lead and you'll see that the best FB to play for the Browns was Ernie Green. He led the way for two HOF RBs.
Motley is fine as an alternate RB to JB and LK...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Zombo said:
I think some of the selections indicate a quantity of production with the Browns over a shorter, more quality-packed run, which is a good way to go, but If I were doing it "at the peak of his career" of guys that played, say, three years or more with the Browns, then I am starting Sherk over Johnson and Turner over Scott for sure.
Cannot agree more. Prior to his unfortunate knee injury, Jerry Sherk was the most dominant DT ever to play for us. His four straight Pro-Bowl years stand as testament to that.
Of all the things that do not translate through the years, knee surgery capability has to top the list.
Again, fair argument. (though I am not sure that Lou gets into HOF on basis of his kicking alone)
I know he was designated the FB.....but he was obviously the "Running Back" when he played....that is why I designated him as such. And Leroy may have also been designated a FB as well, no? Ernie Green was the blocking back for JB....despite being designated the HB.
Plus, I put him at RB to get Motley in there.
Lou was in fact a very good OT, but I have no doubt his kicking prowess for the time was his ticket to the hall.
Kelly was always listed as HB. Ernie Green "converted" from HB to FB Kelly's first year as a starter.
Both Motley and Brown were listed as FBs. Both Motley and Brown were clearly the RB when they were on the field. It's your list, and you can do what you want, but to call one a RB so the other can also start is just a reverse engineered contrivance. Instead follow your own lead and you'll see that the best FB to play for the Browns was Ernie Green. He led the way for two HOF RBs.
Motley is fine as an alternate RB to JB and LK...
Cannot agree more. Prior to his unfortunate knee injury, Jerry Sherk was the most dominant DT ever to play for us. His four straight Pro-Bowl years stand as testament to that.
Of all the things that do not translate through the years, knee surgery capability has to top the list.
Lou was in fact a very good OT, but I have no doubt his kicking prowess for the time was his ticket to the hall.
Kelly was always listed as HB. Ernie Green "converted" from HB to FB Kelly's first year as a starter.
Both Motley and Brown were listed as FBs. Both Motley and Brown were clearly the RB when they were on the field. It's your list, and you can do what you want, but to call one a RB so the other can also start is just a reverse engineered contrivance. Instead follow your own lead and you'll see that the best FB to play for the Browns was Ernie Green. He led the way for two HOF RBs.
Motley is fine as an alternate RB to JB and LK...
Yet, the funny thing about Green is that he had really the lighter, slimmer physique that both Brown and Kelly.
But still, if you say Green was maybe the best blocking back....that still would not make him the best Fullback no? Even if you say that JB, Kelly and Motley were the RBs....what about Mike Pruitt and Kevin Mack? I think they were "fullbacks" who were better than Green....if by better you mean a better runner....not that Green was shabby at running.
When they played they were in tandem with another "running back" that got their share of carries: Greg Pruitt, Ernest Byner.
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Here are the Browns Top Ten all time rushers:
1. Jim Brown 12312 yds
2. Leroy Kelly 7274
3. Mike Pruitt 6540
4. Greg Pruitt 5496
5. Kevin Mack 5123
6. Marion Motley 4712
7. Ernest Byner 3364
8. Ernie Green 3204
9. Jamal Lewis 2806
10. Bobby Mitchell 2297
per PFR, Mitchell was a designate Halfback/KR when he was with the Browns. When he went to the Redskins he became a "Flanker".
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Sorry- I disagree.
I'll take a Lamborghini instead of a model T.
Jim Brown would still be a Lamborghini is this day and age.
And for all we know, Groza may have performed as well as Dawson if they were teaching the soccer style of kicking in his day.
And did you see where Ballpeen called you an 11 year old mongoloid?
Jim Brown would still be a Lamborghini is this day and age.
And for all we know, Groza may have performed as well as Dawson if they were teaching the soccer style of kicking in his day.
And did you see where Ballpeen called you an 11 year old mongoloid?
Jim brown outweigh most of the linebackers he played against. If he played now he'd be another Peyton Hillis.
Auto Grahm would have a hard time beating out Branden weeden for a backup.
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Jim Brown would probably just be average if he played now. Bug, strong, fast HBs aren't an anomaly now.
Lou Groza would be a terrible kicker, and in no way better than Dawson.
If you want the very best team, your depth chart above would not be it
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
Jim Brown would still be a Lamborghini is this day and age.
And for all we know, Groza may have performed as well as Dawson if they were teaching the soccer style of kicking in his day.
And did you see where Ballpeen called you an 11 year old mongoloid?
Jim brown outweigh most of the linebackers he played against. If he played now he'd be another Peyton Hillis.
Auto Grahm would have a hard time beating out Branden weeden for a backup.
Jim brown outweigh most of the linebackers he played against. If he played now he'd be another Peyton Hillis.
Auto Grahm would have a hard time beating out Branden weeden for a backup.
Crap, Brown outweighed many defensive linemen. Aren't many 165 pound DBs currently in the NFL for him to run over either. Defenders have since learned you don't tackle a guy by jumping on his back, and trying to trip him.
JB would be faster and more agile than Hillis, but NOT faster than a healthy Bo Jackson. Oh, he'd be very, very good- but I'd bet he wouldn't be averaging 5+ ypc either. -
As much as I hate to tout a U of Texas player, there has to be room for Eric Metcalf
"Overall, Metcalf finished his career with 2,392 rushing yards, 541 receptions for 5,572 yards, 3,453 punt return yards, and 5,813 yards returning kickoffs. This gave him a total of 17,230 all-purpose yards, ranking him among the NFL's top 10 in that category at the time of his retirement. He also scored 55 touchdowns (12 rushing, 31 receiving, ten punt returns, two kickoff returns). His 12 returns for touchdowns are the third most in NFL history behind Devin Hester and Brian Mitchell. Metcalf's 10 punt return touchdowns were an NFL record, until October 2, 2011 when Devin Hester broke it against the Carolina Panthers. He is the only player ever to have 7,000+ yards on offense and 7,000+ yards on kickoff/punt returns."
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Jim Brown would still be a Lamborghini is this day and age.
And for all we know, Groza may have performed as well as Dawson if they were teaching the soccer style of kicking in his day.
And did you see where Ballpeen called you an 11 year old mongoloid?
Jim brown outweigh most of the linebackers he played against. If he played now he'd be another Peyton Hillis.
Auto Grahm would have a hard time beating out Branden weeden for a backup.
Jim brown outweigh most of the linebackers he played against. If he played now he'd be another Peyton Hillis.
Auto Grahm would have a hard time beating out Branden weeden for a backup.
You are as stupid as anyone I have ever seen on this board. I have to assume you are a Steeler fan. No fan of any other team could be as dumb as you come off.
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Jim Brown would probably just be average if he played now. Bug, strong, fast HBs aren't an anomaly now.
Lou Groza would be a terrible kicker, and in no way better than Dawson.
If you want the very best team, your depth chart above would not be it
Jim Brown would probably just be average if he played now. Bug, strong, fast HBs aren't an anomaly now.
Lou Groza would be a terrible kicker, and in no way better than Dawson.
If you want the very best team, your depth chart above would not be it
By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
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As much as I hate to tout a U of Texas player, there has to be room for Eric Metcalf
"Overall, Metcalf finished his career with 2,392 rushing yards, 541 receptions for 5,572 yards, 3,453 punt return yards, and 5,813 yards returning kickoffs. This gave him a total of 17,230 all-purpose yards, ranking him among the NFL's top 10 in that category at the time of his retirement. He also scored 55 touchdowns (12 rushing, 31 receiving, ten punt returns, two kickoff returns). His 12 returns for touchdowns are the third most in NFL history behind Devin Hester and Brian Mitchell. Metcalf's 10 punt return touchdowns were an NFL record, until October 2, 2011 when Devin Hester broke it against the Carolina Panthers. He is the only player ever to have 7,000+ yards on offense and 7,000+ yards on kickoff/punt returns."
As much as I hate to tout a U of Texas player, there has to be room for Eric Metcalf
"Overall, Metcalf finished his career with 2,392 rushing yards, 541 receptions for 5,572 yards, 3,453 punt return yards, and 5,813 yards returning kickoffs. This gave him a total of 17,230 all-purpose yards, ranking him among the NFL's top 10 in that category at the time of his retirement. He also scored 55 touchdowns (12 rushing, 31 receiving, ten punt returns, two kickoff returns). His 12 returns for touchdowns are the third most in NFL history behind Devin Hester and Brian Mitchell. Metcalf's 10 punt return touchdowns were an NFL record, until October 2, 2011 when Devin Hester broke it against the Carolina Panthers. He is the only player ever to have 7,000+ yards on offense and 7,000+ yards on kickoff/punt returns."
We love us some Eric Metcalf. But he obviously isn't going to break into the RB list......so the best I could do is to put him at backup Kick Returner. Josh Cribbs surpassed Eric's KR accomplishments. That means I would have to move Mitchell.
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OK, I made some changeups to my Depth Chart:
A. I put Jim Brown in at FB, backed up by Motley (relegating M. Pruitt)
B. I put Greg Pruitt in at backup RB behind Kelly
C. I put Bobby Mitchell at backup WR behind Warfield (relegating Speedie)
D. I put Joe Thomas in at one starting OT, backed up by Dieken (leaving Groza only at K)
E. I put Jerry Sherk in as a starter, and Walter Johnson in as backup to Michael Dean Perry
F. I put Cribbs in at starting KR, backed up by Eric Metcalf (moving Mitchell to WR)
G. I put Gillom in at starting Punter, backed up by Chris Gardocki (leaving Collins only as WR)
I did not move E-Rock in ahead of Scott, because Scott was a SS where E-Rock was a FS....and I left E-Rock behind Darden at FS.
I did not put a good current day kicker ahead of a fucking Hall of Fame player. Anyone that says I should is, in the words of ballpeen an 11 year old mongoloid.
See the original post for the changes.
Anything else?
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Clarence Scott still bothering me. He moved to safety at the end of his career. He was a good CB, then a good safety, never great.
Eric Turner was a great safety. Played first two years as a strong safety and then switched to free.
Warren Lahr is another guy worth mentioning, but i think his career was split up between CB (defensive halfback) and S too.
Overall, a pretty impressive team, a lot of Steeler killers.
Zombo
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Yes, the FS/SS thing is a dilemma. Here is Scott's line"
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/ScotCl00.htm
8 years as a corner, 4 years at SS, one at FS
Here is E-Rocks:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TurnEr00.htm
2 years at SS with Browns, 3 years at FS.
Darden definitely gets the FS nod, all but one year spent there:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DardTh00.htm
Here is Lahr's line:
ww.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LahrWa20.htm
He is listed as an "LDH" which I can't figure out....or just as a generic DB.
I agree that Lahr should probably be on the depth chart....but where?
There are other early guys that could be considered: Ken Konz, Tommy James, Cliff Lewis. 40s/50s guys.
Here are the top Ten Browns in Interceptions, not that Ints are the sole factor to consider:
1. Darden 45
2. Lahr 44
3. Scott 39
4. Tommy James 34
5. Ken Konz 30
5. Cliff Lewis 30
7. Bernie Parish 29
8. Ross Fichtner 27
9. Mike Howell 27
10. Hanford Dixon 26
10. Felix Wright 26.
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Jim Brown would probably just be average if he played now. Bug, strong, fast HBs aren't an anomaly now.
Lou Groza would be a terrible kicker, and in no way better than Dawson.
If you want the very best team, your depth chart above would not be it
By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
No fucking shit Sherlock.....but they weren't better.
(and some of them weren't any of that.....Jim Brown is as big, fast, strong as any RB playing today. Paul Warfield, while not big would have fit fine today.
Marion Motley could have been as big as Jerome Bettis.
And, fyi.....if the likes of Groza, MacCormack, Willis, Ford etc were playing today....they too would be as big and as strong as today's players......they would have had the advantage of the training/nutrition that today's athletes did.
Do you think that today's athletes got that way by evolution? They got that way through applied methods....
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By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
What's wrong with making an all-time depth chart based upon how they played against their peers?
You want guys that only played the last ten years because they are the biggest and fastest? What fun is that?
I don't know how Otto Graham would do in the NFL today if you raised him from the dead, put him in a time machine, had him born in 1990, put him through modern high school and college football training and then put him on an NFL roster. Who cares? 50 years from now there will a guy bigger, stronger and a faster than Tom Brady playing QB for the Patriots and there will be a bigger, faster, stronger DL playing for the texans than JJ Watt and some punk kid will want to leave them off of their team's all-time roster.
When the NFL, NBA and MLB select their all-time teams they select Jim Brown, Bill Russell and Babe Ruth ... not Arian Foster, Dwight Howard and Ryan Braun.
Zombo
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As much as I hate to tout a U of Texas player, there has to be room for Eric Metcalf
"Overall, Metcalf finished his career with 2,392 rushing yards, 541 receptions for 5,572 yards, 3,453 punt return yards, and 5,813 yards returning kickoffs. This gave him a total of 17,230 all-purpose yards, ranking him among the NFL's top 10 in that category at the time of his retirement. He also scored 55 touchdowns (12 rushing, 31 receiving, ten punt returns, two kickoff returns). His 12 returns for touchdowns are the third most in NFL history behind Devin Hester and Brian Mitchell. Metcalf's 10 punt return touchdowns were an NFL record, until October 2, 2011 when Devin Hester broke it against the Carolina Panthers. He is the only player ever to have 7,000+ yards on offense and 7,000+ yards on kickoff/punt returns."
As much as I hate to tout a U of Texas player, there has to be room for Eric Metcalf
The Browns never figured out how to use Eric on Offense. Turned out he just wasn't an NFL RB, averaged under 4 ypc for his career.
Left us for ATL, who moved him to WR, and he promptly posted a 1000-yard season.
But he was a helluva punt returner.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Yes, the FS/SS thing is a dilemma. Here is Scott's line"
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/ScotCl00.htm
8 years as a corner, 4 years at SS, one at FS
Here is E-Rocks:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TurnEr00.htm
2 years at SS with Browns, 3 years at FS.
Darden definitely gets the FS nod, all but one year spent there:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DardTh00.htm
Here is Lahr's line:
ww.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LahrWa20.htm
He is listed as an "LDH" which I can't figure out....or just as a generic DB.
I agree that Lahr should probably be on the depth chart....but where?
There are other early guys that could be considered: Ken Konz, Tommy James, Cliff Lewis. 40s/50s guys.
Here are the top Ten Browns in Interceptions, not that Ints are the sole factor to consider:
1. Darden 45
2. Lahr 44
3. Scott 39
4. Tommy James 34
5. Ken Konz 30
5. Cliff Lewis 30
7. Bernie Parish 29
8. Ross Fichtner 27
9. Mike Howell 27
10. Hanford Dixon 26
10. Felix Wright 26.
Here is Lahr's line:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LahrWa20.htm
He is listed as an "LDH" which I can't figure out....or just as a generic DB.
LDH = Left Defensive Halfback (AKA left cornerback)... either that or he was a Mormon...
Warren was a good, smart CB for many years... and very fast for his day as I recall.
EDIT: ... and the two LS notations were Left Safety.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Besides, Otto Graham was 6'1" 200 lbs. While that is less than the average QB today, which is about 6'3" 220, it is still plenty big enough. He would have probably played today closer to the 220 mark. And all these QBs who are just 6/2 or less play today:
Russell Wilson
John P. Manziel
Drew Brees
Mike Vick
Chase Daniel
Bruce Gradkowski
Tyrod Taylor
all of the above are 6'1" or less
And the following are 6'2
Romo
Rodgers
Stafford
Griffin
Dalton
Fitzgerald
Carr
Locker
Sanchez
Bridgewater
Hoyer
Clausen
Flynn.
Otto would have had no trouble.
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Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
What's wrong with making an all-time depth chart based upon how they played against their peers?
You want guys that only played the last ten years because they are the biggest and fastest? What fun is that?
I don't know how Otto Graham would do in the NFL today if you raised him from the dead, put him in a time machine, had him born in 1990, put him through modern high school and college football training and then put him on an NFL roster. Who cares? 50 years from now there will a guy bigger, stronger and a faster than Tom Brady playing QB for the Patriots and there will be a bigger, faster, stronger DL playing for the texans than JJ Watt and some punk kid will want to leave them off of their team's all-time roster.
When the NFL, NBA and MLB select their all-time teams they select Jim Brown, Bill Russell and Babe Ruth ... not Arian Foster, Dwight Howard and Ryan Braun.
Zombo
Zombo said:
What's wrong with making an all-time depth chart based upon how they played against their peers?
You want guys that only played the last ten years because they are the biggest and fastest? What fun is that?
I don't know how Otto Graham would do in the NFL today if you raised him from the dead, put him in a time machine, had him born in 1990, put him through modern high school and college football training and then put him on an NFL roster. Who cares? 50 years from now there will a guy bigger, stronger and a faster than Tom Brady playing QB for the Patriots and there will be a bigger, faster, stronger DL playing for the texans than JJ Watt and some punk kid will want to leave them off of their team's all-time roster.
When the NFL, NBA and MLB select their all-time teams they select Jim Brown, Bill Russell and Babe Ruth ... not Arian Foster, Dwight Howard and Ryan Braun.
Zombo
Umm.... Read my posts again.
I'm fine with it being an all time depth chart based on how they played against their peers. It was informed to be that this depth chart was supposed to just be the all time best players, regardless of the era. If that is what we're going for than this list is inaccurate.
So I'm fine with what you are saying, but I was told this isn't what this depth chart is supposed to be
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody!
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