All Time Browns Depth Chart

The Gipper

Yes, the FS/SS thing is a dilemma. Here is Scott's line"

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/ScotCl00.htm

8 years as a corner, 4 years at SS, one at FS

Here is E-Rocks:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TurnEr00.htm

2 years at SS with Browns, 3 years at FS.

Darden definitely gets the FS nod, all but one year spent there:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DardTh00.htm

Here is Lahr's line:

ww.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LahrWa20.htm

He is listed as an "LDH" which I can't figure out....or just as a generic DB.

I agree that Lahr should probably be on the depth chart....but where?

There are other early guys that could be considered: Ken Konz, Tommy James, Cliff Lewis. 40s/50s guys.

Here are the top Ten Browns in Interceptions, not that Ints are the sole factor to consider:

1. Darden 45

2. Lahr 44

3. Scott 39

4. Tommy James 34

5. Ken Konz 30

5. Cliff Lewis 30

7. Bernie Parish 29

8. Ross Fichtner 27

9. Mike Howell 27

10. Hanford Dixon 26

10. Felix Wright 26.

MLD Woody

@the-gipper said:

By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.

Is that how you roll?

Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.

Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.

Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.

The Gipper

@mld-woody said:
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.

No fucking shit Sherlock.....but they weren't better.

(and some of them weren't any of that.....Jim Brown is as big, fast, strong as any RB playing today. Paul Warfield, while not big would have fit fine today.

Marion Motley could have been as big as Jerome Bettis.

And, fyi.....if the likes of Groza, MacCormack, Willis, Ford etc were playing today....they too would be as big and as strong as today's players......they would have had the advantage of the training/nutrition that today's athletes did.

Do you think that today's athletes got that way by evolution? They got that way through applied methods....

Zombo

@mld-woody said:
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.

What's wrong with making an all-time depth chart based upon how they played against their peers?

You want guys that only played the last ten years because they are the biggest and fastest? What fun is that?

I don't know how Otto Graham would do in the NFL today if you raised him from the dead, put him in a time machine, had him born in 1990, put him through modern high school and college football training and then put him on an NFL roster. Who cares? 50 years from now there will a guy bigger, stronger and a faster than Tom Brady playing QB for the Patriots and there will be a bigger, faster, stronger DL playing for the texans than JJ Watt and some punk kid will want to leave them off of their team's all-time roster.

When the NFL, NBA and MLB select their all-time teams they select Jim Brown, Bill Russell and Babe Ruth ... not Arian Foster, Dwight Howard and Ryan Braun.

Zombo

Tour2ma

@texasag1969 said:
As much as I hate to tout a U of Texas player, there has to be room for Eric Metcalf

The Browns never figured out how to use Eric on Offense. Turned out he just wasn't an NFL RB, averaged under 4 ypc for his career.

Left us for ATL, who moved him to WR, and he promptly posted a 1000-yard season.

But he was a helluva punt returner.

Tour2ma

@the-gipper said:

Here is Lahr's line:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LahrWa20.htm

He is listed as an "LDH" which I can't figure out....or just as a generic DB.

LDH = Left Defensive Halfback (AKA left cornerback)... either that or he was a Mormon...

Warren was a good, smart CB for many years... and very fast for his day as I recall.

EDIT: ... and the two LS notations were Left Safety.

The Gipper

Besides, Otto Graham was 6'1" 200 lbs. While that is less than the average QB today, which is about 6'3" 220, it is still plenty big enough. He would have probably played today closer to the 220 mark. And all these QBs who are just 6/2 or less play today:

Russell Wilson

John P. Manziel

Drew Brees

Mike Vick

Chase Daniel

Bruce Gradkowski

Tyrod Taylor

all of the above are 6'1" or less

And the following are 6'2

Romo

Rodgers

Stafford

Griffin

Dalton

Fitzgerald

Carr

Locker

Sanchez

Bridgewater

Hoyer

Clausen

Flynn.

Otto would have had no trouble.

MLD Woody

Zombo said:

What's wrong with making an all-time depth chart based upon how they played against their peers?

You want guys that only played the last ten years because they are the biggest and fastest? What fun is that?

I don't know how Otto Graham would do in the NFL today if you raised him from the dead, put him in a time machine, had him born in 1990, put him through modern high school and college football training and then put him on an NFL roster. Who cares? 50 years from now there will a guy bigger, stronger and a faster than Tom Brady playing QB for the Patriots and there will be a bigger, faster, stronger DL playing for the texans than JJ Watt and some punk kid will want to leave them off of their team's all-time roster.

When the NFL, NBA and MLB select their all-time teams they select Jim Brown, Bill Russell and Babe Ruth ... not Arian Foster, Dwight Howard and Ryan Braun.

Zombo

Umm.... Read my posts again.

I'm fine with it being an all time depth chart based on how they played against their peers. It was informed to be that this depth chart was supposed to just be the all time best players, regardless of the era. If that is what we're going for than this list is inaccurate.

So I'm fine with what you are saying, but I was told this isn't what this depth chart is supposed to be

The Gipper

@tour2ma said:

The Browns never figured out how to use Eric on Offense. Turned out he just wasn't an NFL RB, averaged under 4 ypc for his career.

Left us for ATL, who moved him to WR, and he promptly posted a 1000-yard season.

But he was a helluva punt returner.

The favorite mantra of Bill Belichick was "Metcalf up the middle". Sorry, maybe now he is better, but in his early days here BB knew Bo Diddly about how to run an offense.

The Gipper

@tour2ma said:

LDH = Left Defensive Halfback (AKA left cornerback)... either that or he was a Mormon...

Warren was a good smart CB for many years.

So what you are saying is that what we call a corner is now a Latter Day Defensive Halfback?

Zombo

@mld-woody said:

Umm.... Read my posts again.

I'm fine with it being an all time depth chart based on how they played against their peers. It was informed to be that this depth chart was supposed to just be the all time best players, regardless of the era. If that is what we're going for than this list is inaccurate.

So I'm fine with what you are saying, but I was told this isn't what this depth chart is supposed to be

These are the best players.

Who was better that we left off?

Braylon Edwards? I imagine he was bigger, faster and stronger than Dante Lavelli, but he couldnt catch and ol' Gluefingers could.

Im interested to know which QBs you think were better than Graham and which RB was better than Brown.

Z

hoorta

@the-gipper said:

By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.

Is that how you roll?

Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.

Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.

Better that AP? Debatable. I get your much better than their @ the time peers- but better than current players? Um, not so fast. IIRC, Geno Marchetti was the first lineman to top 300 pounds- now it's a rarity for any lineman to weigh LESS than 300 pounds. I don't think you could find a starting OL who weighs less than that. You can debate if the oldsters had the same training tools available to current athletes, they'd be competitive- but I'd still bet the below average guys wouldn't be able to cut it in today's NFL- or any other sport. Just plain not big enough or fast enough. You want an example? Wilt Chamberlain would doubtless be a HOF center in today's NBA- still think he could post a couple 100 point games against today's level of competition? I for one say hell no.

So all we're saying is the average level of skill in today's sports world is far, far superior than it was 50 years ago. So yeah- the absolute greatest would probably be great in any era. But- I'd put heavy money on Kentucky's college team to blow out George Mikan's NBA guys.

BTW Gip- Pele was to soccer as Jim Brown was to football.

@mld-woody said:
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.

Just let him live in his nostalgia world- you ought to know by now, even if Gip's wrong, he's still right.

The Gipper

@mld-woody said:

Umm.... Read my posts again.

I'm fine with it being an all time depth chart based on how they played against their peers. It was informed to be that this depth chart was supposed to just be the all time best players, regardless of the era. If that is what we're going for than this list is inaccurate.

So I'm fine with what you are saying, but I was told this isn't what this depth chart is supposed to be

It is absolutely accurate....well in the extent that you include Hall of Fame players over current middle of the road players.

See, in you thinking Babe Ruth would be an inferior ball player to like Brandon Moss.

Timofey Mozgov would be a better center than Bill Russell.

Ryan Seymour would be a better center than Frank Gatski.

More and more idiocy keeps drooling out of your cock pocket.

The Gipper

@hoorta said:

Better that AP? Debatable.

Maybe....but JB would win that debate. Peterson is 6'1" 217. JB was 6'2" 232. I don't know about the speed...they didn't do 40 times in JBs days....but I hear that his speed was about the same as Peterson's 4.4.

You take AP on your team, I'll take JB.....and I will be confident as hell in the lineup of my team....at least at that position

I get your much better than their @ the time peers- but better than current players? Um, not so fast. IIRC, Geno Marchetti was the first lineman to top 300 pounds- now it's a rarity for any lineman to weigh LESS than 300 pounds. I don't think you could find a starting OL who weighs less than that. You can debate if the oldsters had the same training tools available to current athletes, they'd be competitive- but I'd still bet the below average guys wouldn't be able to cut it in today's NFL- or any other sport.

Maybe those below average guys could not cut it today.....but my lineup is filled with HOFers.....not below avg. guys.

Just plain not big enough or fast enough. You want an example? Wilt Chamberlain would doubtless be a HOF center in today's NBA- still think he could post a couple 100 point games against today's level of competition? I for one say hell no.

No NBA offense would be designed today to let that happen....but if some team let a LeBron/Kobe in his prime go at it and say "score as much as you can" someone could come close. Didn't Kobe have like 81 points in a game not too long ago?

So all we're saying is the average level of skill in today's sports world is far, far superior than it was 50 years ago. So yeah- the absolute greatest would probably be great in any era. But- I'd put heavy money on Kentucky's college team to blow out George Mikan's NBA guys.

Mikan could be compared to probably Kaminski who nearly took them out. Wisconsin is sort of a throw back team....so I don't know...it could be close.

BTW Gip- Pele was to soccer as Jim Brown was to football.

Yea, I know....and Woody would relegate Pele to being a bench player.

Just let him live in his nostalgia world- you ought to know by now, even if Gip's wrong, he's still right.

larryfine

@the-gipper said:
You are as stupid as anyone I have ever seen on this board. I have to assume you are a Steeler fan. No fan of any other team could be as dumb as you come off.

Dumb, your one of the biggest Homers on this board. Just because you have a autograph picture of Jim Brown hanging above your bed, he is the greatest RB to ever play. You post your homer opionion. Someone else post their opioion which happens to be the opposite of yours and you reply 20 times trying to talk them out of it. Go fuck yourself court clerk. You ain't changing my mind. Suck on my giant smelly balls!

Flugel

Zombo said:

What's wrong with making an all-time depth chart based upon how they played against their peers?

You want guys that only played the last ten years because they are the biggest and fastest? What fun is that?

I don't know how Otto Graham would do in the NFL today if you raised him from the dead, put him in a time machine, had him born in 1990, put him through modern high school and college football training and then put him on an NFL roster. Who cares? 50 years from now there will a guy bigger, stronger and a faster than Tom Brady playing QB for the Patriots and there will be a bigger, faster, stronger DL playing for the texans than JJ Watt and some punk kid will want to leave them off of their team's all-time roster.

When the NFL, NBA and MLB select their all-time teams they select Jim Brown, Bill Russell and Babe Ruth ... not Arian Foster, Dwight Howard and Ryan Braun.

Zombo

Money post Zombo!

Meatball on spaghetti, Otto Graham led the Browns into Championship Games in 1946,1947,1948,1949,1950,1951,1952,1953,1954,1955. Cleveland won 7 of those Pro Football Championships. A lot of NFL teams tried to dismiss their pro football Championship levels from 46-49 to junior achievement league. Consequently, Cleveland was warned they better bring their sling shot to take down the big boys. No better sling shot than Otto Graham in the REAL birth place of the West Coast Offense... Works every time when your QB is Ottomatic. Every time some Steel-for-brains wanted to tell me about 1 for the Thumb - I said I got your 1 for the thumb right here! We were working toward 1 for the second thumb in the 50s and 60s. We reached 8 Pro Football Championship Wins in 1964, which is why the Rooney Family needed to look to a former Paul Brown pupil - Chuck Noll in order to finally put their program on the NFL map. The SF dynasty borrowed a majority of Paul Brown's ideas all the way down to the careful selection of QB pedigree that would bridge the perfection of delivery to the idea of the offensive design.

Joe Montana and Tom Brady are often praised for what they've accomplished in NFL Championships and rightfully so. Sometimes, younger generations will question Graham's stats back when QBs weren't babied so much by rules and what secondaries could do to receivers all the way down field. Then they will say they wonder if he could make it in more modern eras. Here's the thing, pro football is old enough to the extent where trends get recycled way more often than they get invented. Bill Walsh never INVENTED all of Paul Brown's concepts. He recycled them and cleverly added some Sid Gilman wrinkles and others. That wasn't too long after the Dallas Cowboys patterned a lot of their scouting methods and criteria after Paul Brown (and others before him). If memory serves me right, it wasn't cool to consider Joe Montana's arm strength or college offensive system before round 3 or 4 (and some would even say there's nothing gotta have about the stats below). True; but the 1 team that gave him the perfect match for his skill set didn't give a rat about the rear view mirror - any more than the 34 D that drafted JJ Watt (only to see Wade Phillips change to a 4 man front 78% of the snaps in JJ's rookie year) to dwarf his previous college stats and alleged pre-draft limitations to just 1 scheme/alignment. Interestingly enough, Brady often took a back seat to the Freshman Sensation at the school up North. Now here's the Victorious Secret SF looked to emphasizing why film is every bit as important as Joe Montana's college numbers below:

Year ▴ Team GP Comp Att % Yds TD INT

1975 ND 7 28 66 42.4 507 4 8

1977 ND 9 99 189 52.4 1604 11 8

1978 ND 11 141 260 54.2 2010 10 9

Westside Steve

Graham in modern day football?

Not to blaspheme but....

WSS

calfoxwc

GREAT Stuff - it's a riot to just sit back and read.... !

Flugel

@the-gipper said:

Here is a proposed All time Browns Depth Chart taking each position with a starter and a backup from the all time Browns roster:

QB Otto Graham, backup Frank Ryan (over Sipe and Kosar)

FB Jim Brown backup Marion Motley

RB Leroy Kelly, backup Greg Pruitt

WR 1 Paul Warfield, backup Bobby Mitchell

WR 2 Dante Lavelli, backup Gary Collins

TE Ozzie Newsome, backup Milt Morin

OT1 Joe Thomas, backup Doug Dieken

OT2 Mike MacCormack, backup Dick Shafrath

OG1 Gene Hickerson, backup Robert Jackson

OG2 Joe Delamalleure, backup John Wooten

OC Frank Gatski, backup Tom DeLeone (over Baab, Mack)

DE1 Len Ford, backup Paul Wiggin

DE2 Bill Glass, backup Carl Hairston

DT1 Michael Dean Perry, backup Walter Johnson

DT2 Jerry Sherk backup Bob Golic

OLB1 Clay Matthews, backup Chip Banks

OLB2 Jim Houston, backup Charlie Hall

MLB1 Bill Willis, backup Vince Costello

MLB2 Mike Johnson, backup Dick Ambrose

CB1 Hanford Dixon, backup Bernie Parrish

CB2 Frank Minnifield, backup Joe Haden

SS Clarence Scott, backup Ross Fichtner

FS Thom Darden, backup Eric Turner

K Lou Groza, backup Don Cockroft/Phil Dawson

P Horace Gillom, backup Chris Gardocki

KR Josh Cribbs, backup Eric Metcalf

Any substitutions you would like to make?

Italics= HOF

Thanks for putting that together Gipper! I'm sure you've had to edit here and there but great job overall man! Good to see you got Jerry Sherk starting inside. You're not going please everyone. If I could borrow the lineup for 1 game day - I'd make these changes:

1) Start Walter Johnson over MD Perry (Big difference vrs the run IMO. Johnson wrestled a bear on the Wide World of Sports. That takes grapefruits under the acorn)

2) Start Joe Haden over Frank Minnifield (Both impressive cover guys with/without great pass rushes. LOVE Haden's open field tackling)

3) Start Eric Turner over anybody. When he erased Ben Coates - it was the last playoff game this franchise won. If we're going to count Chris Gardocki for the length of time he was here - I'd say Don Rogers is at least worthy of making this list (even if it has to be as a backup).

If we could do up a practice squad of 7 - here's my blue collar heros:

1) QB Bernie Kosar (very slight edge over MVP Brian Sipe because of the playoff Ws)

2) FB Kevin Mack (knocked out Greg Loyd who needed smelling salts in order to wake up quicker than Rip Van Winkle)

3) OT Tony Jones (Undrafted and Underrated; but Unforgettable enough for Denver to add him to the other side of formation of Gary Zimmerman)

4) OT Cody Risien (7th round draft pick from Texas A&M that made at least 2 Pro Bowls here)

5) WR Brian Brennan (This Irish loddy's unparalleled toughness over the middle led our 86 team w/ 55 receptions @ 15.1 ypc & 6 TDs. No ear plugs required!)

6) DE Rob Burnett (It sucked Valley Girl-level to hand a guy like this over to the Rathouse so he could make a Pro Bowl or 2)

7) RB Ernest Byner (10th round pick from East Carolina that could block like a FB, sport great hands out of the backfield and play like a feature back/workhorse in a Joe Gibbs Superbowl Championship run. Take that inner-chest and run him down thy esophagii. He's everything we wanted Trent Richardson to be plus 2 testicles)

Riffer X

Good job on the list Gipper. I tried to pick it apart but can only find issue with two things and they are both debatable.

Clarence Scott -- Solid player but just can't get wrapped around him being number one. I would just put the two best interchangeable safeties so Turner would be my starter at SS.
Mike Pruitt being left off. I know Motley is a legend and HOFer, but Mike was bad.