Same ole stuff
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Everyone at the Browns Backers party I was at knew who Shelton was but were disappointed we took him. Lots of dumb football fans running around out there.
What were they expecting....the WR?
What were they expecting....the WR?
Don't know. Got stuck at a table with fans of other teams so didn't talk to any Browns folks really, but their disappointment was evident.
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Sure, coaching and cohesiveness and stability counts. But having more talented players helps.
Honestly, having talented players has not actually been the Browns biggest problem. I have broken down the depth charts of the AFCN and the Browns have as many or more talented players than the other division teams. (with the exception of QB....OK).
There is the old adage, "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts". In the Browns case it really has been the opposite.....the whole has been lesser than the sum of its parts. They have a great O Line, the best DBs in the division, reasonably solid DL and LBs. But they have not been able to win because something has been lacking. Cohesion, stability. Hopefully that changes now.
Cohesion and stability have much more of an influence on offensive line production than overall talent. Much, much more. That's why I think it's hilarious when some people say "rotate every guy through a different position until we find the right combination".
For instance, the Patriots have only one 1st round pick on their starting offensive line. They have a second round pick, a fourth round pick, and two undrafted players. Yet
The Eagles (2nd in OL production) have only one first round pick, and then a handful of undrafted's and mid-round guys.
Meanwhile, the Dolphins (who finished 32nd in OL production) have three first round picks, a second round pick and a third round pick.
If you're going to draft for offensive line, do it the way Dallas did it. The Cowboys have three first round picks, an undrafted player, and a fourth round pick. Their first round picks are at LT, C, and RG - a pass blocker, a field general and a road grader.
The point is - you can find success (like the Browns did early in the year) without having to stock your line with first round talent. The Browns shouldn't have to address their offensive line in the first few rounds at all next year.
Cohesion and stability have much more of an influence on offensive line production than overall talent. Much, much more. That's why I think it's hilarious when some people say "rotate every guy through a different position until we find the right combination".
For instance, the Patriots have only one 1st round pick on their starting offensive line. They have a second round pick, a fourth round pick, and two undrafted players. Yet
The Eagles (2nd in OL production) have only one first round pick, and then a handful of undrafted's and mid-round guys.
Meanwhile, the Dolphins (who finished 32nd in OL production) have three first round picks, a second round pick and a third round pick.
If you're going to draft for offensive line, do it the way Dallas did it. The Cowboys have three first round picks, an undrafted player, and a fourth round pick. Their first round picks are at LT, C, and RG - a pass blocker, a field general and a road grader.
The point is - you can find success (like the Browns did early in the year) without having to stock your line with first round talent. The Browns shouldn't have to address their offensive line in the first few rounds at all next year.
I think its important to take into context the offensive system those teams run and whom their QB's are. With elite QB's that can distribute the ball and make faster reads you can get away with having an offensive line that might not be highly regarded. Elite QB's snap to throw time is usually significantly lower than your average QB such as McCown. This takes tons of pressure off the Oline.
Then you have systems like Chips with wide splits, option and faux option handoffs that really help with the numbers advantage in the box.
I agree that talent can be found anywhere. However if the front office and coaching staff feel that the talent the Browns have in Erving not only insures continued Oline production this year and beyond with a great scheme fit, I'm all for it. We shouldn't (theoretically) have to invest a high round pick for the next several years in the Oline. I don't suspect that we will, either.
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What were they expecting....the WR?
Don't know. Got stuck at a table with fans of other teams so didn't talk to any Browns folks really, but their disappointment was evident.
Don't know. Got stuck at a table with fans of other teams so didn't talk to any Browns folks really, but their disappointment was evident.
To be fair, the bulk of fans for any sport truly have no idea what they're talking about, being happy for or disappointed in.
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Everyone at the Browns Backers party I was at knew who Shelton was but were disappointed we took him. Lots of dumb football fans running around out there.
Everyone at the Browns Backers party I was at knew who Shelton was but were disappointed we took him. Lots of dumb football fans running around out there.
Well even supposedly smart football fans don't get it. Walter Football panned the Browns Erving pick- "don't they know they have Alex Mack? Walter- don't you know our run game went to hell when Mack got hurt?
The misconception with that being that high draft picks = strong lines.
You can have five first round picks on your offensive line and have it still suck hind teat. Individual talent means little when it comes to offensive line play, it's knowing what your other four guys are doing.
Yes, you can have first round o-line busts. But it does take a certain level of talent to play the position. The no-names that tried to fill in for Mack were getting beat like a drum on a regular basis. BTW, your o-line is only as strong as it's weakest link. Opposing defensive coordinators will find it- and exploit it.
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"BTW, your o-line is only as strong as it's weakest link."
This is surprisingly true. Even though I realize the center is the signal caller and the "glue," I was shocked at the drop off when Mack went down. I mean, you're talking about an absolutely elite pass pro OL and top 10ish run blocking, that just couldn't do anything once it lost its center.
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Lines win football - greatest cliche ever written about the game, but still the truest ever written.
Lines win football - greatest cliche ever written about the game, but still the truest ever written.
Touchdowns win football games
Nickers...."There are no old running QB's in the NFL "~Sam Rutigliano~ -
I think its important to take into context the offensive system those teams run and whom their QB's are. With elite QB's that can distribute the ball and make faster reads you can get away with having an offensive line that might not be highly regarded. Elite QB's snap to throw time is usually significantly lower than your average QB such as McCown. This takes tons of pressure off the Oline. Tiam
************************
Exactly - and the other point is, having wr's who could get open quickly. Brian Brennan, Webster Slaughter, Biletnikcoff sp?, Hindend Ward, could get open like crazy and catch the ball. Brennan was a 4th round pick. Webster was a 2nd round pick.
Know what Biletnicoff and Hindend had in common? They were both round 3 picks. Brennan was 5'9"+, Ward was
"only" 6', Slaughter was 6'1", and Biletnicoff was 6'1". They were guys who understood how to get open quickly - they
weren't "long striders" and had an outstanding work ethic - they loved the game....
They weren't tall, they weren't #1 draft picks, Biletnicoff was a star athlete in different sports. Brennan was a smaller
kid who "can catch a bb in the dark" per Sam Rutigliano.
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btw, I just came across this - about wr work ethic. Amazing.
********************************************************************
Browns | Sanders Trying to Help Younger WRsMon, 13 May 2002 09:12:50 -0700The Cleveland Plain Dealer reports Cleveland Browns WR Chris Sanders has been taking some of the team's younger WRs -- including Dennis Northcutt, Quincy Morgan and rookie Andre Davis -- under his wing trying to teach them better work ethic. Sanders, who learned under Webster Slaughter his rookie year, said the team wants him to take on a leadership role and he's been trying to do that. During earlier workout sessions, he had the team's younger WRs working longer after practice catching more passes. Sanders believes the Browns have a lot of talent at WR and that they'll surprise some this year. -
Everyone at the Browns Backers party I was at knew who Shelton was but were disappointed we took him. Lots of dumb football fans running around out there.
Well even supposedly smart football fans don't get it. Walter Football panned the Browns Erving pick- "don't they know they have Alex Mack? Walter- don't you know our run game went to hell when Mack got hurt?
The misconception with that being that high draft picks = strong lines.
You can have five first round picks on your offensive line and have it still suck hind teat. Individual talent means little when it comes to offensive line play, it's knowing what your other four guys are doing.
Yes, you can have first round o-line busts. But it does take a certain level of talent to play the position. The no-names that tried to fill in for Mack were getting beat like a drum on a regular basis. BTW, your o-line is only as strong as it's weakest link. Opposing defensive coordinators will find it- and exploit it.
Well even supposedly smart football fans don't get it. Walter Football panned the Browns Erving pick- "don't they know they have Alex Mack? Walter- don't you know our run game went to hell when Mack got hurt?
Fine except sites like Walter's are not questioning our adding line depth, it's spending a first rounder to do it and/or spending #19 on Erving, who many thought was a late first pick at best.
"BTW, your o-line is only as strong as it's weakest link."
This is surprisingly true. Even though I realize the center is the signal caller and the "glue," I was shocked at the drop off when Mack went down. I mean, you're talking about an absolutely elite pass pro OL and top 10ish run blocking, that just couldn't do anything once it lost its center.
Especially in the ZBS... and especially in the middle of the line.
The ZBS choreography displayed by our intact starting O-line was gorgeous. Only Greco came anywhere near the combination of speed and strength to the position after Mack went down. Problem was we had no one to back fill John's RG spot.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I think its important to take into context the offensive system those teams run and whom their QB's are. With elite QB's that can distribute the ball and make faster reads you can get away with having an offensive line that might not be highly regarded. Elite QB's snap to throw time is usually significantly lower than your average QB such as McCown. This takes tons of pressure off the Oline. Tiam
************************
Exactly - and the other point is, having wr's who could get open quickly. Brian Brennan, Webster Slaughter, Biletnikcoff sp?, Hindend Ward, could get open like crazy and catch the ball. Brennan was a 4th round pick. Webster was a 2nd round pick.
Know what Biletnicoff and Hindend had in common? They were both round 3 picks. Brennan was 5'9"+, Ward was
"only" 6', Slaughter was 6'1", and Biletnicoff was 6'1". They were guys who understood how to get open quickly - they
weren't "long striders" and had an outstanding work ethic - they loved the game....
They weren't tall, they weren't #1 draft picks, Biletnicoff was a star athlete in different sports. Brennan was a smaller
kid who "can catch a bb in the dark" per Sam Rutigliano.
I think its important to take into context the offensive system those teams run and whom their QB's are. With elite QB's that can distribute the ball and make faster reads you can get away with having an offensive line that might not be highly regarded. Elite QB's snap to throw time is usually significantly lower than your average QB such as McCown. This takes tons of pressure off the Oline. Tiam
************************
Exactly - and the other point is, having wr's who could get open quickly. Brian Brennan, Webster Slaughter, Biletnikcoff sp?, Hindend Ward, could get open like crazy and catch the ball. Brennan was a 4th round pick. Webster was a 2nd round pick.
Know what Biletnicoff and Hindend had in common? They were both round 3 picks. Brennan was 5'9"+, Ward was
"only" 6', Slaughter was 6'1", and Biletnicoff was 6'1". They were guys who understood how to get open quickly - they
weren't "long striders" and had an outstanding work ethic - they loved the game....
They weren't tall, they weren't #1 draft picks, Biletnicoff was a star athlete in different sports. Brennan was a smaller
kid who "can catch a bb in the dark" per Sam Rutigliano.
Biletnikoff was a slow white boy but he ran precise routes, got open, and caught everything (with a generous helping of stickum)
thrown his way.
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Well, "slow" being a relative term?
Because per Wikipedia:
"In high school, he excelled in football, basketball, baseball, and track, earning first team recognition his senior year on Pennsylvania's all-state football and basketball teams. He was later honored along with other high school football greats Tony Dorsett, Joe Montana, and Mike Ditka to Pennsylvania's all-time first team."
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Sure, coaching and cohesiveness and stability counts. But having more talented players helps.
Honestly, having talented players has not actually been the Browns biggest problem. I have broken down the depth charts of the AFCN and the Browns have as many or more talented players than the other division teams. (with the exception of QB....OK).
There is the old adage, "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts". In the Browns case it really has been the opposite.....the whole has been lesser than the sum of its parts. They have a great O Line, the best DBs in the division, reasonably solid DL and LBs. But they have not been able to win because something has been lacking. Cohesion, stability. Hopefully that changes now.
Cohesion and stability have much more of an influence on offensive line production than overall talent. Much, much more. That's why I think it's hilarious when some people say "rotate every guy through a different position until we find the right combination".
For instance, the Patriots have only one 1st round pick on their starting offensive line. They have a second round pick, a fourth round pick, and two undrafted players. Yet
The Eagles (2nd in OL production) have only one first round pick, and then a handful of undrafted's and mid-round guys.
Meanwhile, the Dolphins (who finished 32nd in OL production) have three first round picks, a second round pick and a third round pick.
If you're going to draft for offensive line, do it the way Dallas did it. The Cowboys have three first round picks, an undrafted player, and a fourth round pick. Their first round picks are at LT, C, and RG - a pass blocker, a field general and a road grader.
The point is - you can find success (like the Browns did early in the year) without having to stock your line with first round talent. The Browns shouldn't have to address their offensive line in the first few rounds at all next year.
Cohesion and stability have much more of an influence on offensive line production than overall talent. Much, much more. That's why I think it's hilarious when some people say "rotate every guy through a different position until we find the right combination".
For instance, the Patriots have only one 1st round pick on their starting offensive line. They have a second round pick, a fourth round pick, and two undrafted players. Yet
The Eagles (2nd in OL production) have only one first round pick, and then a handful of undrafted's and mid-round guys.
Meanwhile, the Dolphins (who finished 32nd in OL production) have three first round picks, a second round pick and a third round pick.
If you're going to draft for offensive line, do it the way Dallas did it. The Cowboys have three first round picks, an undrafted player, and a fourth round pick. Their first round picks are at LT, C, and RG - a pass blocker, a field general and a road grader.
The point is - you can find success (like the Browns did early in the year) without having to stock your line with first round talent. The Browns shouldn't have to address their offensive line in the first few rounds at all next year.
The Cowboys line is considered one of the best in the league. And it looks like the Browns O Line may be built close to exactly the same way: 1st round LT, C, RB (assuming Erving plays there). And two second rounders....Bitonio/The Schwartz.
So the talent is seemingly there. The cohesion must follow. And I believe last year they had good cohesion....until the Mack injury. Injuries more than anything can kill cohesion. It happened to us both on the OL and DL.
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Lines win football - greatest cliche ever written about the game, but still the truest ever written.
Touchdowns win football games
Touchdowns win football games
and stopping other teams from doing so mashes that point.
a FG hit or missed won how many SBs?
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Well even supposedly smart football fans don't get it. Walter Football panned the Browns Erving pick- "don't they know they have Alex Mack? Walter- don't you know our run game went to hell when Mack got hurt?
Fine except sites like Walter's are not questioning our adding line depth, it's spending a first rounder to do it and/or spending #19 on Erving, who many thought was a late first pick at best.
"BTW, your o-line is only as strong as it's weakest link."
This is surprisingly true. Even though I realize the center is the signal caller and the "glue," I was shocked at the drop off when Mack went down. I mean, you're talking about an absolutely elite pass pro OL and top 10ish run blocking, that just couldn't do anything once it lost its center.
Especially in the ZBS... and especially in the middle of the line.
The ZBS choreography displayed by our intact starting O-line was gorgeous. Only Greco came anywhere near the combination of speed and strength to the position after Mack went down. Problem was we had no one to back fill John's RG spot.
Fine except sites like Walter's are not questioning our adding line depth, it's spending a first rounder to do it and/or spending #19 on Erving, who many thought was a late first pick at best.
Especially in the ZBS... and especially in the middle of the line.
The ZBS choreography displayed by our intact starting O-line was gorgeous. Only Greco came anywhere near the combination of speed and strength to the position after Mack went down. Problem was we had no one to back fill John's RG spot.
Exactly what I'm saying Tour. If they want to say Erving is a very expensive insurance policy, and we paid too much for it- well so be it. Mack can opt out after this year- and even if he doesn't he's going to want a ton of money.
Should Joe Thomas ever get hurt- his replacement before Irving would probably be Bitonio- then who plays LG? MHO is it doesn't hurt to be 6 deep on the o-line.
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and stopping other teams from doing so mashes that point.
a FG hit or missed won how many SBs?
The Super Bowl has been decided by three points or fewer five times in the past 15 seasons.
Four points or fewer, I believe, 8 times.
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Fine except sites like Walter's are not questioning our adding line depth, it's spending a first rounder to do it and/or spending #19 on Erving, who many thought was a late first pick at best.
Especially in the ZBS... and especially in the middle of the line.
The ZBS choreography displayed by our intact starting O-line was gorgeous. Only Greco came anywhere near the combination of speed and strength to the position after Mack went down. Problem was we had no one to back fill John's RG spot.
Exactly what I'm saying Tour. If they want to say Erving is a very expensive insurance policy, and we paid too much for it- well so be it. Mack can opt out after this year- and even if he doesn't he's going to want a ton of money.
Should Joe Thomas ever get hurt- his replacement before Irving would probably be Bitonio- then who plays LG? MHO is it doesn't hurt to be 6 deep on the o-line.
Exactly what I'm saying Tour. If they want to say Erving is a very expensive insurance policy, and we paid too much for it- well so be it. Mack can opt out after this year- and even if he doesn't he's going to want a ton of money.
Should Joe Thomas ever get hurt- his replacement before Irving would probably be Bitonio- then who plays LG? MHO is it doesn't hurt to be 6 deep on the o-line.
Exactly...
It's not that I do not think Cam is not a high potential, interior line prospect... he is. It's whether there were other options available to be that 6th man later in the draft... there were.
Then it's whether or not in a year's time an alternative choice would be as ready to replace Mack as Cam would be. Harder to project that.
But to really make a comparison you have to consider what else could have been done with the #19 used to take Cam. I suspect trading down to take him a few slots later was not an option due to a lack of quality offers. So who else was a candidate at 19?
The way the draft fell here is the obvious comparison that has to be made:
Erving & Orchard vs. Dupree/Ray & Marpet
Interesting call to make. Personally I like Marpet... and lean towards Orchard. So I could have made a sizeable trade down... or two.
We shall see...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Exactly what I'm saying Tour. If they want to say Erving is a very expensive insurance policy, and we paid too much for it- well so be it. Mack can opt out after this year- and even if he doesn't he's going to want a ton of money.
Should Joe Thomas ever get hurt- his replacement before Irving would probably be Bitonio- then who plays LG? MHO is it doesn't hurt to be 6 deep on the o-line.
Exactly...
It's not that I do not think Cam is not a high potential, interior line prospect... he is. It's whether there were other options available to be that 6th man later in the draft... there were.
Then it's whether or not in a year's time an alternative choice would be as ready to replace Mack as Cam would be. Harder to project that.
But to really make a comparison you have to consider what else could have been done with the #19 used to take Cam. I suspect trading down to take him a few slots later was not an option due to a lack of quality offers. So who else was a candidate at 19?
The way the draft fell here is the obvious comparison that has to be made:
Erving & Orchard vs. Dupree/Ray & Marpet
Interesting call to make. Personally I like Marpet... and lean towards Orchard. So I could have made a sizeable trade down... or two.
We shall see...
Exactly...
It's not that I do not think Cam is not a high potential, interior line prospect... he is. It's whether there were other options available to be that 6th man later in the draft... there were.
Then it's whether or not in a year's time an alternative choice would be as ready to replace Mack as Cam would be. Harder to project that.
But to really make a comparison you have to consider what else could have been done with the #19 used to take Cam. I suspect trading down to take him a few slots later was not an option due to a lack of quality offers. So who else was a candidate at 19?
The way the draft fell here is the obvious comparison that has to be made:
Erving & Orchard vs. Dupree/Ray & Marpet
Interesting call to make. Personally I like Marpet... and lean towards Orchard. So I could have made a sizeable trade down... or two.
We shall see...
I say that we offer La'el Collins the max contract we can offer him, then have him, Greco, Schwartz and Erving duke it out for the two available spots along the right side.
I think Collins could be a very capable ZBS guard, while I think Erving would be the most passable RT we have - partly because I still hate Schwartz. I like Erving in space more than Collins and I like Collins' mentality more on the interior than I do Erving.
If JT and Mack both get hurt/leave, we can move Bito to LT, Erving to C, Collins to LG, and Schwartz and Greco can reclaim their spots along the right.
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Once cleared? Why not?
I never saw what others have in Collins, but for the price of a UDFA, how can you go wrong?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
is there a cap limit for an undrafted free agent?
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons
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