NOW...the trade is done....
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Nice!
I'm a big history buff old enough to remember trading Paul Warfield to Miami so we could move up to #3 overall to draft Purdue QB Mike Phipps. Just when the solution to Larry Csonka, Mercury Morris and Jim Kiick on the ground was cheating a Safety up in run support - another former Purdue QB (and Earl Morral) could now bury that over the top with a HOF caliber WR. Gridiron chess made easy for Don Shula.
Where did that leave us with our 1st round QB? He just needs experience and help. And we went skipping record on that until some QB that was told not to even bother thinking his arm was worthy of the NFL as a 13th round prospect depicted. In a division where Mel Blount could undress WRs down field like it was a hockey fight - many weighed whether or not to even remember the name Brian Sipe here. The Browns spent a lot of time square pegging Mike Phipps into around hole and it was always the same Poseiden Adventure. Sipe eventually got a chance with the same teammates Phipps always led to a stop sign. Guess what? He's the only League MVP I've seen on this franchise. Pocket presence? You bet. Improvise? Pulled more rabbits out of a hat than Houdini. Confidence and poise under pressure? The volume of late game comebacks gave us our first group of Kardiac Kids regardless of how the first 58 minutes went some Sundays. What else? For having such a weak arm, he averaged over 4000 yards a season over a 3 year stretch when that was unheard of back in BC (Before Cellphones). That was long before the NFL added rules to baby passing games and promote more scoring. Arm Strength? Sorry, he didn't have Brandon Weeden's/Derek Anderson's bionic arm - just the elite vision both those guys wished they had. If that vision is good enough, I've seen it overcome arm strengths in question in the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, etc. People often confuse slow reading QBs with weak arms, which can come into play with inexperienced QBs.
Where does all that leave us today with the young QBs we've invested in? If Manziel continues to shoot himself in the foot like an accurate sniper (hasn't missed yet) - Connor Shaw did NOT look too bad in his first start against a playoff defense. Like Sipe, his biggest question mark is arm strength. Now it's just a question of CAN he read progressions quick enough to get the throws there fast enough? And, will he get his arm stronger with a couple years of NFL strength and conditioning in him? Steve Spurrier has been known to hang his QBs out to dry in some pretty unsound protection schemes. That means they have to throw off a speed read or he gives them a timing pattern to an area of the field of a specified drop. If one is thinking Danny Wuerffel, Shaw has some damn good foot speed and quickness to make his improvise a little more NFL applicable. What intrigues me most about Shaw was his TD to INT ratio of 24:1 his last year at South Carolina. That can work pretty freakin good with a nice running game here.
I'm still hoping Johnny Blutarsky Jr hasn't completely killed Johnny Football just like I'm still hoping to see a fat guy in a red suit on a sled flying in the sky once a year. It wouldn't suck if there's still that QB that went into Nick Saban's house and OWNED it against a National Champion. Either way, I think fate has the right young guy here - while Pettine is the right guy in charge to let it play out without any premature knee jerk. The decision to bring McCown here with a strong running game that can provide plenty of 3rd and short situations doesn't suck either.
I really like Connor Shaw too. What amazed me was how he played in the Ravens game and the poise he showed for someone with such little preparation going into that game. He didn't look like a 3rd string quarterback with little preparation. He impresses me as a smart quarterback who will only get better with game experience. Shaw did have some great stats at South Carolina and I give Farmer credit for bringing him to Cleveland. Brian Sipe comes to mind as well with the potential of someone like Shaw.
I really like Connor Shaw too. What amazed me was how he played in the Ravens game and the poise he showed for someone with such little preparation going into that game. He didn't look like a 3rd string quarterback with little preparation. He impresses me as a smart quarterback who will only get better with game experience. Shaw did have some great stats at South Carolina and I give Farmer credit for bringing him to Cleveland. Brian Sipe comes to mind as well with the potential of someone like Shaw.
Connor Shaw could be the equivalent of Brian Sipe....in theory. Sipe was 13th round pick...330 overall. He would have been a UDFA in today's world.
Which is what Shaw was. Plus Sipe spent 2 years on the Taxi Squad....as Shaw could have done...but for the injuries.
So, you never know.
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I'll take Watkins, Mack, Mosley, Martin, Beckham, Evans, or just about anyone over Justin Gilbert.
We got anal fucked on that trade like we did in 2012. Those trades are meaningless if you squander them.
I'll take Watkins, Mack, Mosley, Martin, Beckham, Evans, or just about anyone over Justin Gilbert.
We got anal fucked on that trade like we did in 2012. Those trades are meaningless if you squander them.
Too early to tell.....yet you have jumped to conclusion already.
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Shaw just so intrigues Me.. And yes.. I have always believed Our QB would come in an obscure way.. And it still feels like that to me...
Now that you mention it like that....Kosar kind of came to us in an obscure way too.....considering "he" manipulated his draft status so he could play for the Browns.
If he hadn't chosen the Browns, then the Browns never could have chosen him....
So, the reality is that Otto Graham is the only 1st round QB we've ever chosen in the regular draft that actually worked out....
Now that you mention it like that....Kosar kind of came to us in an obscure way too.....considering "he" manipulated his draft status so he could play for the Browns.
He he hadn't chosen the Browns, then the Browns never could have chosen him....
So, the reality is that Otto Graham is the only 1st round QB we've ever chosen in the regular draft that actually worked out....
The Browns did not choose Otto Graham in the draft. He was a first round pick of the Lions in 1944....but he was in the military.....playing for Paul Brown at the Great Lakes Naval Academy....and after the war he chose to come play with PB and the Browns rather than go play for Detroit. He was a Free Agent...and signed with the competitor league.
You are pretty much right though....the Browns HAVE screwed the pooch with their 1st round QB picks. Bobby Garrett, Phipps, Couch, Quinn, Weeden,....and maybe JMZ?
So,,,,really, NONE of them have worked out.
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Now that you mention it like that....Kosar kind of came to us in an obscure way too.....considering "he" manipulated his draft status so he could play for the Browns.
He he hadn't chosen the Browns, then the Browns never could have chosen him....
So, the reality is that Otto Graham is the only 1st round QB we've ever chosen in the regular draft that actually worked out....
The Browns did not choose Otto Graham in the draft. He was a first round pick of the Lions in 1944....but he was in the military.....playing for Paul Brown at the Great Lakes Naval Academy....and after the war he chose to come play with PB and the Browns rather than go play for Detroit. He was a Free Agent...and signed with the competitor league.
You are pretty much right though....the Browns HAVE screwed the pooch with their 1st round QB picks. Bobby Garrett, Phipps, Couch, Quinn, Weeden,....and maybe JMZ?
So,,,,really, NONE of them have worked out.
The Browns did not choose Otto Graham in the draft. He was a first round pick of the Lions in 1944...So,,,,really, NONE of them have worked out.
Wow!.....I did not know that.....thanks for the correction...
So...yeah....Im really with Nickers now....and I guess the odds say he's right too.....
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I'll take Watkins, Mack, Mosley, Martin, Beckham, Evans, or just about anyone over Justin Gilbert.
We got anal fucked on that trade like we did in 2012. Those trades are meaningless if you squander them.
I'll take Watkins, Mack, Mosley, Martin, Beckham, Evans, or just about anyone over Justin Gilbert.
We got anal fucked on that trade like we did in 2012. Those trades are meaningless if you squander them.
That was an entertaining way of putting it; and I understand some of your frustration.
However, his overall value wasn't just from being a corner. Mike Mayock called him the best return man in the draft, which he got the chance to do 0% of the time. As a result, we used much lesser talents to return punts/kickoffs for the entire 2014 season.
Think back to our Jax game that wasn't going well for us. What put that game on FUBAR rather than potential suck it out mode was changing the punt returner in the second half to somebody we hadn't used yet (Poyer), who proceeded to play Santa Claus and misjudge the football right into the hands of Jax for first and goal from inside our 10 yard line. Just 1 KO or punt return for a TD that day means Blake Bortles has to beat us instead of Cleveland taking care of that for Blake.
In any of the games we had second half leads or tie scores with Baltimore, Pitt, Carolina, Buffalo, Baltimore II, or Indy - just 1 STs return for a score changes everything that day. We just kept a scoring weapon benched. Think back to Eric Metcalf being drafted up in round 1. His ability to return kicks for TDs is a BIG reason we were the last AFC team to beat Buffalo in a playoff game before they won 4 straight AFC Championships. His 2 punt returns for TDs vrs Pittsburgh was the reason we could beat that rival on a day our offense was about as forgettable that day as our offense was against Jax in 2014. Then again, watching Kevin Mack make Greg Lloyd wake up to smelling salts ranks up there with any any of our memories vrs Pittsburgh. Who was the knucklehead spitting in Lloyd's face to get physical before the TKO? Oh yeah, a former BACKUP LBer in Cleveland named Bill Cowher.
If we never used Eric in our return game, guess what fans would have thought of his overall 1st round draft value? The same thing you're thinking about Gilbert today.
Pettine didn't leave me with a lot of doubts about his ability to coach. The Gilbert situation seemed like an exception to that rule especially when our alternatives to returning punts/kicks were head scratchers. If he wasn't even outplaying K'Wuan Williams at corner, I can't say that I understand the reluctance to use Gilbert in our return game. Returning kicks is the most instinctive role in terms of how much prep time it would have stolen from his role as a corner. A return man either reads the wall or he doesn't. It's a lot vision, instincts, speed and agility - that Gilbert has.
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I'll take Watkins, Mack, Mosley, Martin, Beckham, Evans, or just about anyone over Justin Gilbert.
We got anal fucked on that trade like we did in 2012. Those trades are meaningless if you squander them.
I'll take Watkins, Mack, Mosley, Martin, Beckham, Evans, or just about anyone over Justin Gilbert.
We got anal fucked on that trade like we did in 2012. Those trades are meaningless if you squander them.
hilarious.
i think by the end of the year you'll have changed your mind.
oh and btw, it's funny how you omit others you had on your love list from last year's draft including manziel and borland.
one can't play and another quit.
as a matter of fact i'll wager our picks (4 mentioned above) will work out better as a whole for the browns than the other teams drafts work out for them.
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Shaw just so intrigues Me.. And yes.. I have always believed Our QB would come in an obscure way.. And it still feels like that to me...
Now that you mention it like that....Kosar kind of came to us in an obscure way too.....considering "he" manipulated his draft status so he could play for the Browns.
If he hadn't chosen the Browns, then the Browns never could have chosen him....
So, the reality is that Otto Graham is the only 1st round QB we've ever chosen in the regular draft that actually worked out....
Now that you mention it like that....Kosar kind of came to us in an obscure way too.....considering "he" manipulated his draft status so he could play for the Browns.
If he hadn't chosen the Browns, then the Browns never could have chosen him....
So, the reality is that Otto Graham is the only 1st round QB we've ever chosen in the regular draft that actually worked out....
Exactly! And what specifically expedited Bernie's success? 2 RBs that gained over 1000 yards apiece plus a HOF TE = playoffs in Miami as a rookie QB. We had a 20-3 halftime lead over Miami back when Shula was the Head of the Rules Committee. In the 2nd half, we were still imposing our will on the ground - but there were a lot of flags that smelled fishier than Miami's mascot. Apparent first downs conversions were suddenly turning into 3rd and long scenarios that serial killed a few 2nd half drives...
In 1986, Lindy Infante was hired to be our OC. His priority was to change the number handoffs into more short passes to RBs. Therefore, our RBs combined for 123 receptions with 3rd down RB Herman Fontenot leading us with 47. While Shanny liked the ole fashioned quick pitches and laterals (that were proned to sloppiness/fumbles) - Infante preferred the swing passes/wheel routes to bury defenses drooling to blitz his Qb with 125 lb pound cleats. He was busting undisciplined zone transitions all over the league; and spreading out teams horizontally. And don't forget, Ozzie was a former All American WR that could still line up and exploit a defense like a WR better than he could probably ever block or help set an edge as a TE.
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Now that you mention it like that....Kosar kind of came to us in an obscure way too.....considering "he" manipulated his draft status so he could play for the Browns.
If he hadn't chosen the Browns, then the Browns never could have chosen him....
So, the reality is that Otto Graham is the only 1st round QB we've ever chosen in the regular draft that actually worked out....
Exactly! And what specifically expedited Bernie's success? 2 RBs that gained over 1000 yards apiece plus a HOF TE = playoffs in Miami as a rookie QB. We had a 20-3 halftime lead over Miami back when Shula was the Head of the Rules Committee. In the 2nd half, we were still imposing our will on the ground - but there were a lot of flags that smelled fishier than Miami's mascot. Apparent first downs conversions were suddenly turning into 3rd and long scenarios that serial killed a few 2nd half drives...
In 1986, Lindy Infante was hired to be our OC. His priority was to change the number handoffs into more short passes to RBs. Therefore, our RBs combined for 123 receptions with 3rd down RB Herman Fontenot leading us with 47. While Shanny liked the ole fashioned quick pitches and laterals (that were proned to sloppiness/fumbles) - Infante preferred the swing passes/wheel routes to bury defenses drooling to blitz his Qb with 125 lb pound cleats. He was busting undisciplined zone transitions all over the league; and spreading out teams horizontally. And don't forget, Ozzie was a former All American WR that could still line up and exploit a defense like a WR better than he could probably ever block or help set an edge as a TE.
Exactly! And what specifically expedited Bernie's success? 2 RBs that gained over 1000 yards apiece ....
And lest we forget that floating in the wake of our Heisman bust Charlie White, one of those backs you just mentioned was an obscure late round(9th-10th?) pick by the name of Ernest Byner....no fan fare for him.....but he sure gave us AND the Redskins HOF type football.....his partner in crime was another supplemental pick too....Kevin Mack......(and Minnefield and Johnson too)
realizing just how many of our greatest players came from somewhere other than the first round......
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Sammy Watkins now with a bad Hip in football, I just hope the kid can show his talent he had at Clemson..(Except on us of course)
Sammy Watkins now with a bad Hip in football, I just hope the kid can show his talent he had at Clemson.
I wish him nothing but the best with that hip. He had the surgery in early Feb, so by all accounts should be 100% full go right now(8 weeks on a minor tear, which is what they said he had).....Though, Im hearing they are holding him out of practice and ota's......say its a precautionary measure...so I hope for his sake THAT is true and there isnt still a problem.....
Sadly....if he has a recurrence this year, it easily could spell an early end for him....which would be very unfortunate.....indeed
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At least we got to the bottom of how many QBs we drafted in round 1 (outside of the supplemental draft) ever got us into a Conference Championship Game or equaled Brian Sipe's ability to preform like a League MVP here.
Joe Montana's arm wasn't a first round QB that won 4 SBs
Kurt Warner wasn't drafted before appearing in 3 Superbowls on 2 different teams
Tom Brady was a 6th round pick that played in 6 SBs
Russell Wilson, not to be confused with #2 overall pick RG3, has already appeared in 2 SBs
Joe Theisman, who began in the CFL before cracking in as a punt returner in the NFL, appeared in at least 2 Superbowls
Bart Starr was a 17th round draft pick before frequenting Championships and Superbowls.
Fran Tarkenton played in 3 Superbowls and 9 Pro Bowls as a 3rd round NFL draft pick (also a 5th round AFL draft pick)
Superbowl Champions Qbs like Favre, Brees, Rypien, Hostetler and Brad Johnson weren't 1st round Qbs either.
The thing we always need to remember is that inclement weather benched many a playoff hopes of Dan Marino, Dan Fouts (in Cincy) and Brian Sipe. As far above the QB performance barometer as Peyton Manning has always been - he's got the same number of Superbowl Championships as Trent Dilfer received by accident. And Manning played the majority of his career in a climate controlled dome with no wind, ice, rain or anything that makes the field surface or football slippery.
Our previous front offices have had the following QBs on their doorstep:
1) Donovan McNabb but chose between Akili Smith and Tim Couch
2) Kurt Warner in the expansion draft but chose Scot Milanovich with gambling on his resume
3) Tom Brady but apparently the completion percentages of Spergon Wynn found cupid's arrow
4) Ben Roethlisberger instead of trading up for Winslow
5) Aaron Rodgers instead Braylon Barfights Edwards at #3 overall (possibly via trading back and adding picks)
6) Russell Wilson instead Brandon Weeden (and it could have been in round 2 or possibly 3)
7) Nick Foles instead of Weeden (and it could have been later than where we could have landed Wilson)
We as fans can get this stuff wrong; but we've been counting on some short sighted research in our front office for quite some time now. Had a Browns fan buddy whom I respect a great deal tell me that Tarkenton couldn't start in this era. I told him he would have been a lot better than Christian Ponder the year AP carried Minnesota on his back into the playoffs. Then I asked him, which season in Cleveland since 1999 would any of the QBs we've brought here started over Tarkenton?
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Cleveland definitely got the best of that transaction.
Gilbert had a bad first 2,3 games last year - and after that was good. And he's been money in OTA's. He'll be great this year.
Erving and Campbell are rookies, we'll see how they respond - but they've been good so far.
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I don't think it is even a question that Watkins is much better than Gilbert at this point in time. Bacon
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Well, great college wr vs great college db - the db has a harder job in the nfl, and Watkins had a
rib injury in preseason, then reinjured it.....
The Browns needed to be a complete team, this last draft did that. Okay, except they don't have a superstar
qb...whatever. I don't see Buffalo as being a far better team after the trade
It's just a far greater impact on the Browns, than Buffalo, and it's early.
I don't think it is even a question that Watkins is much better than Gilbert at this point in time. Bacon
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Well, great college wr vs great college db - the db has a harder job in the nfl, and Watkins had a
rib injury in preseason, then reinjured it.....
The Browns needed to be a complete team, this last draft did that. Okay, except they don't have a superstar
qb...whatever. I don't see Buffalo as being a far better team after the trade
It's just a far greater impact on the Browns, than Buffalo, and it's early.
Watkins 65 Rec 982 Yards 15.1 YPC 6 TDs vs Gilbert that wasn't even trusted to play and 2 draft choices. So it's a very solid #1 NFL WR vs a DB that the coaches hope grows up enough to be a starter and two unknowns, but I guess this is the Browns board so yes it appears the Browns won.
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Well we will see. You guys have your opinions, and I have mine I guess. There is an awful lot of Hopes associated with the Browns, but Erving may actually make the trade worth it, but we will see. The sad part is revisionist history will come up next year when I bring up this thread if you are wrong.
I will still take the wildly productive rookie wideout over a bust, and players whom haven't even played a down for us. But I hope Gilbert and friends do make this worth it.
My question is this, when Gilbert failes miserably again, and ibrahiem does what all 4th rounders do, nothing, but Erving turns out to be good, and Watkins is good who wins?
Has to still be Buffalo because we had 3 chances to land great players, and only got 1 good one, the same thing they got in their single pick. The point of trading picks is to land more "good" players. So even if 1 of them turns out to be good, Buffalo still wins because they batted 1.000 for their picks, and we batted .333 for ours.
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I don't think it is even a question that Watkins is much better than Gilbert at this point in time. Bacon
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Well, great college wr vs great college db - the db has a harder job in the nfl, and Watkins had a
rib injury in preseason, then reinjured it.....
The Browns needed to be a complete team, this last draft did that. Okay, except they don't have a superstar
qb...whatever. I don't see Buffalo as being a far better team after the trade
It's just a far greater impact on the Browns, than Buffalo, and it's early.
Watkins 65 Rec 982 Yards 15.1 YPC 6 TDs vs Gilbert that wasn't even trusted to play and 2 draft choices. So it's a very solid #1 NFL WR vs a DB that the coaches hope grows up enough to be a starter and two unknowns, but I guess this is the Browns board so yes it appears the Browns won.
Watkins 65 Rec 982 Yards 15.1 YPC 6 TDs vs Gilbert that wasn't even trusted to play and 2 draft choices. So it's a very solid #1 NFL WR vs a DB that the coaches hope grows up enough to be a starter and two unknowns, but I guess this is the Browns board so yes it appears the Browns won.
This has been a hot topic with several of them. They weigh and measure based on names, not production. They are putting a ton of weight on guys who haven't played a snap in this league, and a DB that was so demoted he was benched behind a undrafted ROOKIE free agent. But in their view that means he is good. I would recommend just ignoring them and waiting till next year. The Browns board is known to be full of kool-aid drinkers and blind optimism. Realism isn't considered here.
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Its a shame we were having such a good quality discussion....from both sides .....2 pages and not one asshole comment the whole time....
Everyone has been able to simply state their side and move on without having personal issue with the other guys opinion....almost completely like growns up....
Then CB shows and starts slinging arrows....for zero reason......so, thanks for that....
Too bad.....we had a great convo going too.....
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