The Unofficial... Off-Season... D-line Thread

Tour2ma

@tiamat63 said:
I see I'll be spending some time in this thread.

And welcome you are... but someone needs to start an LB thread.

Orchard looks lean... and very quick. And in his interview the position coach was bragging all over Tank.

Mudfly

@tour2ma said:

And welcome you are... but someone needs to start an LB thread.

Ill take it from here.....

tiamat63

@tour2ma said:

And welcome you are... but someone needs to start an LB thread.

Orchard looks lean... and very quick. And in his interview the position coach was bragging all over Tank.

Oh yes, that's right. I have a personal interest in Orchards success given some of my comments. Not shocked to hear that he's looking quick.

Mudfly

@tour2ma said:
...or a gem so promising that he opens up trade possibilities for a starter.

Thats what I would guess too......a starter would bring more than a prospect, thats for sure......

If they want a decent return, it'd have to be someone like D. Bryant or Phil Taylor.....or maybe we at least recoup(or better) our original investment in a bubble guy like Billy Wynn or A. Bryant??

gumby73

I Know we our set on a 3-4 D System but I just don't get with all these names on D and if a team and situations call for it, play in a 4-3 D in Spots??

Tour2ma

Never say never, gum, but just feels like we are less 4-3-ish going into this year than we were last.

But we are looking at a helluva goalline unit...

Mudfly

@tour2ma said:

Never say never, gum, but just feels like we are less 4-3-ish going into this year than we were last.

Ironically....the one guy we let go, Sheard, woulda/coulda been the best end for a 4-3 situation

tiamat63

Don't rule out seeing orchard with his hand in the ground. He did that quite a bit at Utah.

Tour2ma

@mudfly said:
Ironically....the one guy we let go, Sheard, woulda/coulda been the best end for a 4-3 situation

Certainly in part... but IMO other changes have contributed as well.

Rubin, our best 4-3 DT leaving...

Phil's move back to NT, where he belongs...

Adding Shelton...

Adding Cooper...

@tiamat63 said:
Don't rule out seeing orchard with his hand in the ground. He did that quite a bit at Utah.

Situationally? Absolutely... although excepting his rookie year I can't think of instances when Mingo, a full-time DE at LSU, has been used that way.

tiamat63

@tour2ma said:

Certainly in part... but IMO other changes have contributed as well.

Rubin, our best 4-3 DT leaving...

Phil's move back to NT, where he belongs...

Adding Shelton...

Adding Cooper...

Situationally? Absolutely... although excepting his rookie year I can't think of instances when Mingo, a full-time DE at LSU, has been used that way.

Of course situationally. The idea being to bring him along slowly while still allowing Nate to contribute as a pass rusher. Though he's had extensive work from a 2pt stance - he's well ahead of where Mingo was after being drafted.

Flugel

@tour2ma said:

Nice little, 5-minute interview with D-line Coach, Anthony Weaver... great, baritone speaking voice.

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/videos/Anthony_Weaver_Excited_With_Their_Work_Habits/dc42424f-1b61-46b9-bd27-b5f16fa7867f

Condensed version...

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/videos/Browns_Huddle_Defensive_Line_Update/42b1656c-9307-4308-842c-82c4271f11e7

Tour's CliffNotes:

Very excited by the group's work habits.

Starks has brought a great, veteran presence.

Xavier Cooper's first step is translating to pros.

Three lesser knows that are impressing: 2nd-year players Jacoby McDaniels and Jamie Meder (The Pride of Parma), and rookie, Dylan Winn, the player most like Dellavedova.

Can't wait for Shelton, but knows he is doing cardio to stay in shape.

Thanks Tour! I'm starting get an insatiable appetite for these "Unofficial Offseason" topics to discuss. Great job man!

Not to be redundant with bringing up our 86 team; but our defense ranked #1 in the AFC against the run while our corners were Hanford Dixon and Frank Minnifield.Too bad our superstar Safety on the horizon (Don Rogers) passed away before our 86 season. Here's our starting lineups back then:

12-4-0

QB Bernie Kosar

RB Ernest Byner

FB Kevin Mack

LT Paul Farren

RG Dan Fike

RT Cody Risien*

LDE Reggie Camp

NT Bob Golic*

RDE Carl Hairston

LOLB Chip Banks*

LILB Eddie Johnson

RILB Anthony Griggs

ROLB Clay Matthews

LCB Frank Minnifield*

RCB Hanford Dixon*+

SS Ray Ellis

As we discussed about the offense elsewhere, our leading receiver at RB (Fontenot- 47 rec) & WR (Brennan - 55 rec) were only situational rotation guys that accomplished most of their magic on 3rd downs.

Stopping the run via the LBers in that 3-4 was predicated on the gap integrity and blue collar efforts of the 3 up front in most of that scheme. However, we had a neat little David Puzzuoli wrinkle in the sense he finished with 6 sacks as the backup NT in the rotation. Fresh legs providing a little sic em, sock em and sack em! Teams weren't passing as often as they do now - but this was our top 5 guys at sacking the QB: 1) Hairston 9, 2) Camp 7, 3) Clancy 6.5, 4) Puzzuoli 6, 5) Banks 4.5. Sometimes teams rank high against the run because they're so horrible vrs the pass that nobody wastes time trying to run on them. Our Corners were Dixon and Minnifield so that was not the case here.

A reason I love bringing back the 86 team is because I think this team is shaping up a lot like that one. Custom built to play well in any weather off that Lake. Mud and Tia have had some very insightful posts about the varied/multiple fronts so it's tough to call our 3-4 traditional unless a lot of 2014 alignments and schematics were injury driven.

Here's the top 7 dlinemen in random order I think we'll see in our rotation:

Randy Starks - still some good football in that tank much like Carl Hairston had for us.

John Hughes - If memory serves me right I had my sour puss on that we let someone else draft WR T.Y. Hilton.Since that day, he's been my favorite 2 gap player here. Killer good when healthy. The good news is he can also kick inside if we should need that.

Danny Shelton - Would love to hear Keith Jackson describing him on my weekend caffeine volumes. He's a stud I can't wait to see tossing around Pouncey like he weighs an ouncey. Our DC spoke about the importance of an inside push that commands 2 blockers at all times to to keep a Guard off the ILBer. Check.

Billy Winn - Always had a knack for being in the middle of a big play whether he was causing it or coming up with the turnover. Didn't take long before I called him Billy Badass. His biggest enemy to date has been nagging injuries; and a occasionally a scale that reads one at a time.

Xavier Cooper - Love what I'm reading and seeing on film. Very intrigued here.

Phil Taylor - I've been his biggest critic to date ever since I gave him a Wundumson welcome dance that had my wife contemplating changing the locks on our house. My celebration was 1 minute shy of me sleeping with raccoons outside. Noticing the need to draft Danny Shelton for the apex of our defense should accomplish 2 things here Phil: 1) rehab the injury 2) show up with endurance that exceeds 2 consecutive downs. Both doable.

Des Bryant - Can he return to the form we saw before he had the procedure on a heart valve in November of 2013? He reminded me of a poor man's Richard Seymore. I just haven't seen the same guy since; but the first impression was powerful enough to keep him listed.

Deep enough for a fresh legged rotation that has very little dropoff. It should be LBer-friendly enough to project massive improvement against the run. Game on!

miktoxic

very informative thread. well done as usual guys.

Mudfly

@gumby73 said:
I Know we our set on a 3-4 D System but I just don't get with all these names on D and if a team and situations call for it, play in a 4-3 D in Spots??

Now it looks like they are gonna add a little 4-3 to the multi front arsenal.......from Oneills pressy....

1) The Browns will use more four-man fronts

From a traditional standpoint, Cleveland employs a 3-4 scheme. But that will be less of the case in the 2015 season. On Thursday, defensive coordinator Jim O’Neil hinted the Browns will use more exotic fronts, including several packages with four players in a down position on the line of scrimmage.

“I do think we’ll be able roll more guys up front, and that’s a good luxury because if you can keep those guys up front fresh, that will really help us in the later part of the game,” O’Neil said.

Pettine took it a step further, talking specific changes. The coaching staff views 26-year-old Scott Solomon as more of a defensive end who can set the edge on early downs and force running backs to the inside. Armonty Bryant is versatile enough to stick his hand in the dirt and become a one-on-one matchup pass rusher with a left tackle. And Pettine even said the Browns will consider teaming 330-pounders Danny Shelton and Ishmaa’ily Kitchen in the middle together as defensive tackles.

These defensive revelations from mini-camp could be a significant storyline all season

calfoxwc

Kickass Browns defense. Oh, this coming season is going to be great !

Tour2ma

Flounder?

Tour2ma

@mudfly said:
Now it looks like they are gonna add a little 4-3 to the multi front arsenal.......from Oneills pressy....

My listen produced more of an impression of a semi-brush-back on the question... Pet said we were more of a 3.5-3.5 D than a 3-4. O'Neil upped the ante stating that we often present five-man fronts.

gumby73

Well sounds like they see it too or became members. But either way I can see the 1/2 when your trying to run in a bunch of 330's like Hockey line changes. We are Huge:: Kitchen, Taylor, Shelton, Starks, Hughes, Cooper, 2 Bryant's and Wynn, damn turn on the Game Lights. Is A. Bryant getting work at LB? (active 7 could be 8?)

tiamat63

@tour2ma said:
My listen produced more of an impression of a semi-brush-back on the question... Pet said we were more of a 3.5-3.5 D than a 3-4. O'Neil upped the ante stating that we often present five-man fronts.

The point I've been trying to harp over and over is how many on this board are hung up on '34' and '43' and the players that they believe are to be pigeon holed into spots.

Defense doesn't work that way in Pettine and O'Neil's mind(s). Which I can appreciate - the only problem is that the defense itself can be very complex. I'd expect to see some growing pains out of Shelton and Orchard in the very early going. Hell, don't be surprised if there are some busted plays at their spots in the pre-season.

That said, all the early word is that Danny is absorbing the calls like a sponge and having a great showing.

Flugel

@tiamat63 said:

The point I've been trying to harp over and over is how many on this board are hung up on '34' and '43' and the players that they believe are to be pigeon holed into spots.

Defense doesn't work that way in Pettine and O'Neil's mind(s). Which I can appreciate - the only problem is that the defense itself can be very complex. I'd expect to see some growing pains out of Shelton and Orchard in the very early going. Hell, don't be surprised if there are some busted plays at their spots in the pre-season.

That said, all the early word is that Danny is absorbing the calls like a sponge and having a great showing.

That's an insightful post Tia. We often get caught up in the traditional sense of we're either a 34 or a 43. But situational football and matchups from Mike Pettine's staff use mutiple fronts that you and Mud did a nice job of reminding us about throughout the offseason. They used some 52 looks (and some other alignments) that prolly traced back Pettine's dad's defenses considering our DC (O'Neill) and LBer Coach (Driesbach) have roots there as well. I also liked how they changed up the techniques across the line. Sometimes after an opponent like Houston dashed and gashed us up front - they tightened our dline splits inside the next week. They did some innovative stuff that was fun to watch. Also keep in mind, we had a ridiculous volume of injuries up front that might have forced their hand to use alignments they wouldn't consider if we were reasonably healthy.

It does take time for younger players like you alluded to. Having said that, a guy like Shelton is an absolute film junkie and student of the game on top of how smart he is. I expect him to get this pretty quickly. Defense always seems to come quicker to players than offense for some reason. That said, look how quickly guys like Mack, Thomas and Bitonio picked our offense as rookies.

tiamat63

@flugel said:

That's an insightful post Tia. We often get caught up in the traditional sense of we're either a 34 or a 43. But situational football and matchups from Mike Pettine's staff use mutiple fronts that you and Mud did a nice job of reminding us about throughout the offseason. They used some 52 looks (and some other alignments) that prolly traced back Pettine's dad's defenses considering our DC (O'Neill) and LBer Coach (Driesbach) have roots there as well. I also liked how they changed up the techniques across the line. Sometimes after an opponent like Houston dashed and gashed us up front - they tightened our dline splits inside the next week. They did some innovative stuff that was fun to watch. Also keep in mind, we had a ridiculous volume of injuries up front that might have forced their hand to use alignments they wouldn't consider if we were reasonably healthy.

It does take time for younger players like you alluded to. Having said that, a guy like Shelton is an absolute film junkie and student of the game on top of how smart he is. I expect him to get this pretty quickly. Defense always seems to come quicker to players than offense for some reason. That said, look how quickly guys like Mack, Thomas and Bitonio picked our offense as rookies.

The 34 is the 52, only difference is your ends are now in a 2pt look. The difference between those schemes is negligible against the run (unless of course you want your OLB's doing some crazy shit)

The injuries are certainly not lost on anyone here. The rough part is that players who were extensively injured, example being Big Phil - can't really offer the insight and knowledge into the scheme that comes only from playing time. That is a hindrance to themselves and our younger group. Sure he might have the X's and O's down, but when you're in a live game and you get a check from your field general, communication, sliding, the proper rotation has to be second nature otherwise you're now a larger step behind the opposing offense.

All in all, I'm very pleased with the approach our coaching staff has with our defense. Nothing is off the table and no combination of personnel will be ignored or at the very least experimented with. Although my largest gripe is how O'Neil took Winn, asked him to put on weight and defeated the natural, scheme versatile ally he had. That said, Cooper has an even faster first step than Billy did with any additional 10lbs his rookie season. I pray the coaching staff understands just how big of a matchup nightmare Xavier can become as long as they continuously strive to improve his strength and technique while letting him stay at his normal weight. Then Cooper would become the player I hoped Pettine would allow Winn to be.