Jonathan Paul Manziel
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Maybe I'm looking at the wrong video, but I Manziel beating McCown?
The video Mud posted :45 to :56
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Tour where did you find the OTA footage?
It looks like this one is a compilation of JFF from the OTA videos....nothing ground breaking, but lots of shots of him throwing here
It looks like this one is a compilation of JFF from the OTA videos....nothing ground breaking, but lots of shots of him throwing here
Looks like a lot of short passes aimed at getting the ball out quickly. There were a couple 5-7 step drops mixed in there with a very nice throw from Manziel and a good catch from Smith (#17) at the other end. The rest of this is going to be long and well caffeinated for those of you that don't like long posts or Flugel's dumb jock Shakespeare. Let's please stay on topic if you do read and react.
I don't know if anyone remembers what Mike McCarthy tried to do with a younger Aaron Rodgers after their playoff game with Arizona ended with him holding onto the ball too long in the pocket with a strip sack for a game ending TD. He had all day to get rid of the ball or get outside of the pocket to throw it away and live another down while he waited for his favorite Wr to get loose (as younger QBs are prone to doing in lieu of the progression from time to time). Inexperience got the best of him; but it gave McCarthy something to work on with Rodgers moving forward. The next year, the ball was getting out of Rodgers' hands quicker than ever. In the SB, Pittsburgh's Pro Bowl edge rush seemed a country mile away from Rodgers on every play. That was Mike McCarthy saying if my talented QB gets sacked holding onto the ball in today's rules - Aaron Rodgers needs me to be a better coach. Land ho!
In Cleveland back in 1985, we had an old vet Gary Danielson starting at QB to begin the year for the first 5 games or so. I can't remember who our OC was at the time but it wasn't Mr. Meoggi. Anyway, there was a logical plan in place to run the ball with Byner and Mack and get Kosar starting before mid-season. We ended the year 8-8 with both RBs rushing for over 1000 yards a piece. We took that momentum into the playoffs and got something like 20-3 halftime lead on Miami before a line that imposed its will was suddenly getting flagged in the 2nd half to erase first downs into requiring the pass on 3rd and long. In essence, we went from exclusively doable to unrealistic for a rookie QB in the playoffs. I think 4 of the officials were Dewey Cheatem, Hugh Betterpaymeshula, Ben Dover and Howie Phuckem.
Lindy Infante was hired as our OC in 1986 knowing defenses were chomping at the bits to load the box and pressure a QB with 75 pound cleats. He came here with such an impressive plan - my football wood factor went from balsa to sequoia. Not only are we still going to run the ball down your esophagus; but we're going to spread your gay little twister game in the box out horizontally. Zone blitz schemes are very vulnerable to undisciplined zone coverage transitions out in the flats and hook zones in particular. Consequently, our RBs combined for 123 receptions to either bury the blitz or the mere thought of it. Gridiron chess said we didn't need 2 different RBs to rush for over 1000 yards again especially if we wanted to give defenses more things to defend. We evolved and grew as our young QB got more starts under his belt. Believe it or not, Bernie only had to throw 17 TD passes in 86. It was awesome to watch his 3rd down magic with RB Herman Fontentot (47 receptions) and WR Brian Brennan (55 receptions) though. Even better, was watching the seams open up for Ozzie when defenses had to adjust to covering our RBs better. Outsiders called that finesse. We called it pick your poison.
That team was constructed a lot like this one. Veteran QB brought here working with a 1st round QB. I really think when this team got out to a 6-3 start with Crow averaging something like 5.2 yards per carry - our running came of age (especially when healthy). Before Tate limped off the field one game - he had something like a 4.2-4.4 yard per carry average. Never looked the same after when he returned though. West grew on me once he stopped taking too many false steps to get upfield. I still wished he packed a little more power that compact frame and low center of gravity projects. He should be tougher to tackle than he is sometimes; but a guy like Wilbert Montgomery can tap that. As teams prepared to stop our running game as we delved into the 2nd half of 2014 - we didn't throw very many passes to our RBs. I think we only ended up with something like 18 receptions all year from our RBs. Shanny might have felt a slightly forward swing pass isn't much different than a lateral or quick pitch. IMO it is though for these reasons: 1) depth of DE/OLBer can cause a turnover, loose ball or sloppy pitch (as witnessed), 2) depth of edge rush can also cause a running back to belly back or QB to pitch it deeper back inviting pursuit to smother the play, 3) if a Defense is already committing an OLB to the edge rush - we're blowing off a favorable matchup in the short pass game outside which can also help jar loose a seam later on once we make a vacated zone worth defending. Any team that caught what we do every week on film - already knew we weren't going to exploit the flats. That's like playing Chess and saying I don't want to use my Bishops and my Rooks because they're not as powerful as my other chess piece. They loaded up on our strengths and we lost a lot of 2nd half leads via the inability to give them more to defend. That plus injuries caught up with us. The progress from a 4-12 mini bus fire drill made that a fun season overall for me though.
I loved how compatible our oline was with a zbs (especially since Schwartz and Mack played in a zone blitz scheme at Cal). The wrinkle of throwing to our RBs that our new OC wants to add not only gives defenses more to defend but it should make it easier on our QBs. Hopefully, Duke Johnson can give us a Herman Fontenot role on 3rd downs with a homerun gear. On paper, we look ready to rock and problem solve injuries way better than in recent years. 2 very good offseasons of planning to improve our running game on the Lake Erie climate. There's an old saying, "if you fail to prepare - prepare to fail." Pettine wants our QBs frequently in 3rd and short like McCown was in Chicago when he sported a 109 passer rating with 13 TDs to 1 INT and only 2 fumbles. In Tampa, the handcuffs of the 31st ranked running game had him in a lot of 3rd and long situations behind very suspect pass protection. Even summer school student aces that math! We don't need to get creative to find our game faces today folks. The only question I really have right now is do I need another cup of coffee?
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Good job Flugel......stirred another great memory there......and I agree, there are parallels between this team and that '84 Browns team. Most notably the comparison of journeyman QB Gary Danielson to McCown and the potential of the young(unproven) tandem of Mack/Byner vs todays tandem of Crowell/West.....(and Duke)....
Then add the fact that those Browns found great success with some late pick WRs in Reggie Langhorne and Brian Brennan....role players who did the job without flash or huge stats.....and that offense did quite well indeed(minus any huge stars except maybe Newsome)......
Of course, we had a solid D backing them up too......
Another possible comparison is also an '83-'84 team in the Washington Redskins....powered primarily by the HOGS......That legendary O-line made their team great!.....With solid protection and run blocking, Joe Theismann suddenly became a Pro-bowl QB and John Riggins turned into an unstoppable running machine(and he was well into his 30's by then).....but everyone knew that the HOGS were the true reason behind their success(and HOF voters seem to agree)......that great O-line gave others the time to be great too....
So.....Id hope that a stiff D and premier O-Line would propel this team....and guys like McCown, West, Crowell, Duke and all the WRs will benefit from that extra protection provided by the line and extra opportunities provided by the D....and rise above "average"..........
Last year I was really optimistic coming into camp and felt we had the best roster I had seen since the late 80's or early 90's, only to see us decimated by injury and the revelation that our depth needed to improve....
THIS year, I am certain it's the best roster we've had in over 30 years.....and the depth is much improved......
Chomping at the bit to see some action......cant come fast enough.......
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Nice post Flugel. Zombo, TCPU and Mudfly also have had some excellent posts (why I like this board). Since 99 I never thought this team had any real vision or direction but with Farmer and Pettine I finally see the Browns making all the right moves to build this team and having clear goals. I liked Mariota a lot but we couldn't afford him and I think we did well with our draft this year and Shelton in particular is exactly who we needed up front on defense. Every time I think of Shelton I think of Mudfly's pre draft prediction we would take him at #12 and his "come to papa" remark.
McCown is in the twilight of his career but if he is the starter this year I believe Pettine has a clear plan in how to use McCown to get the maximum of his ability and have his performance level close to how well he did with the Bears versus the Buccs. If Manziel can beat out McCown that would be great and I am interested to see how well Manziel can play with the good work ethic he is showing this year. I see why Pettine wanted to bring in McCown though, even at his age he brings a lot to the table and will help Manziel to develop.
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It looks like this one is a compilation of JFF from the OTA videos....nothing ground breaking, but lots of shots of him throwing here
Looks like a lot of short passes aimed at getting the ball out quickly. There were a couple 5-7 step drops mixed in there with a very nice throw from Manziel and a good catch from Smith (#17) at the other end. The rest of this is going to be long and well caffeinated for those of you that don't like long posts or Flugel's dumb jock Shakespeare. Let's please stay on topic if you do read and react.
I don't know if anyone remembers what Mike McCarthy tried to do with a younger Aaron Rodgers after their playoff game with Arizona ended with him holding onto the ball too long in the pocket with a strip sack for a game ending TD. He had all day to get rid of the ball or get outside of the pocket to throw it away and live another down while he waited for his favorite Wr to get loose (as younger QBs are prone to doing in lieu of the progression from time to time). Inexperience got the best of him; but it gave McCarthy something to work on with Rodgers moving forward. The next year, the ball was getting out of Rodgers' hands quicker than ever. In the SB, Pittsburgh's Pro Bowl edge rush seemed a country mile away from Rodgers on every play. That was Mike McCarthy saying if my talented QB gets sacked holding onto the ball in today's rules - Aaron Rodgers needs me to be a better coach. Land ho!
In Cleveland back in 1985, we had an old vet Gary Danielson starting at QB to begin the year for the first 5 games or so. I can't remember who our OC was at the time but it wasn't Mr. Meoggi. Anyway, there was a logical plan in place to run the ball with Byner and Mack and get Kosar starting before mid-season. We ended the year 8-8 with both RBs rushing for over 1000 yards a piece. We took that momentum into the playoffs and got something like 20-3 halftime lead on Miami before a line that imposed its will was suddenly getting flagged in the 2nd half to erase first downs into requiring the pass on 3rd and long. In essence, we went from exclusively doable to unrealistic for a rookie QB in the playoffs. I think 4 of the officials were Dewey Cheatem, Hugh Betterpaymeshula, Ben Dover and Howie Phuckem.
Lindy Infante was hired as our OC in 1986 knowing defenses were chomping at the bits to load the box and pressure a QB with 75 pound cleats. He came here with such an impressive plan - my football wood factor went from balsa to sequoia. Not only are we still going to run the ball down your esophagus; but we're going to spread your gay little twister game in the box out horizontally. Zone blitz schemes are very vulnerable to undisciplined zone coverage transitions out in the flats and hook zones in particular. Consequently, our RBs combined for 123 receptions to either bury the blitz or the mere thought of it. Gridiron chess said we didn't need 2 different RBs to rush for over 1000 yards again especially if we wanted to give defenses more things to defend. We evolved and grew as our young QB got more starts under his belt. Believe it or not, Bernie only had to throw 17 TD passes in 86. It was awesome to watch his 3rd down magic with RB Herman Fontentot (47 receptions) and WR Brian Brennan (55 receptions) though. Even better, was watching the seams open up for Ozzie when defenses had to adjust to covering our RBs better. Outsiders called that finesse. We called it pick your poison.
That team was constructed a lot like this one. Veteran QB brought here working with a 1st round QB. I really think when this team got out to a 6-3 start with Crow averaging something like 5.2 yards per carry - our running came of age (especially when healthy). Before Tate limped off the field one game - he had something like a 4.2-4.4 yard per carry average. Never looked the same after when he returned though. West grew on me once he stopped taking too many false steps to get upfield. I still wished he packed a little more power that compact frame and low center of gravity projects. He should be tougher to tackle than he is sometimes; but a guy like Wilbert Montgomery can tap that. As teams prepared to stop our running game as we delved into the 2nd half of 2014 - we didn't throw very many passes to our RBs. I think we only ended up with something like 18 receptions all year from our RBs. Shanny might have felt a slightly forward swing pass isn't much different than a lateral or quick pitch. IMO it is though for these reasons: 1) depth of DE/OLBer can cause a turnover, loose ball or sloppy pitch (as witnessed), 2) depth of edge rush can also cause a running back to belly back or QB to pitch it deeper back inviting pursuit to smother the play, 3) if a Defense is already committing an OLB to the edge rush - we're blowing off a favorable matchup in the short pass game outside which can also help jar loose a seam later on once we make a vacated zone worth defending. Any team that caught what we do every week on film - already knew we weren't going to exploit the flats. That's like playing Chess and saying I don't want to use my Bishops and my Rooks because they're not as powerful as my other chess piece. They loaded up on our strengths and we lost a lot of 2nd half leads via the inability to give them more to defend. That plus injuries caught up with us. The progress from a 4-12 mini bus fire drill made that a fun season overall for me though.
I loved how compatible our oline was with a zbs (especially since Schwartz and Mack played in a zone blitz scheme at Cal). The wrinkle of throwing to our RBs that our new OC wants to add not only gives defenses more to defend but it should make it easier on our QBs. Hopefully, Duke Johnson can give us a Herman Fontenot role on 3rd downs with a homerun gear. On paper, we look ready to rock and problem solve injuries way better than in recent years. 2 very good offseasons of planning to improve our running game on the Lake Erie climate. There's an old saying, "if you fail to prepare - prepare to fail." Pettine wants our QBs frequently in 3rd and short like McCown was in Chicago when he sported a 109 passer rating with 13 TDs to 1 INT and only 2 fumbles. In Tampa, the handcuffs of the 31st ranked running game had him in a lot of 3rd and long situations behind very suspect pass protection. Even summer school student aces that math! We don't need to get creative to find our game faces today folks. The only question I really have right now is do I need another cup of coffee?
The rest of this is going to be long and well caffeinated for those of you that don't like long posts or Flugel's dumb jock Shakespeare. Let's please stay on topic if you do read and react.
The only question I really have right now is do I need another cup of coffee?
First, no... you do not.
Second, maybe it was the disclaimer, but I read, and enjoyed, the entire post. Who knew Shakespeare played chess?
Combining your Browns' and Mud's Skins' parallels gets me to the question of how far some of the best of 80's football might take a team in today's NFL. It's going to be fun watching the answer unfold.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Nice post Flugel. Zombo, TCPU and Mudfly also have had some excellent posts (why I like this board). Since 99 I never thought this team had any real vision or direction but with Farmer and Pettine I finally see the Browns making all the right moves to build this team and having clear goals. I liked Mariota a lot but we couldn't afford him and I think we did well with our draft this year and Shelton in particular is exactly who we needed up front on defense. Every time I think of Shelton I think of Mudfly's pre draft prediction we would take him at #12 and his "come to papa" remark.
McCown is in the twilight of his career but if he is the starter this year I believe Pettine has a clear plan in how to use McCown to get the maximum of his ability and have his performance level close to how well he did with the Bears versus the Buccs. If Manziel can beat out McCown that would be great and I am interested to see how well Manziel can play with the good work ethic he is showing this year. I see why Pettine wanted to bring in McCown though, even at his age he brings a lot to the table and will help Manziel to develop.
Nice post Flugel. Zombo, TCPU and Mudfly also have had some excellent posts (why I like this board). Since 99 I never thought this team had any real vision or direction but with Farmer and Pettine I finally see the Browns making all the right moves to build this team and having clear goals. I liked Mariota a lot but we couldn't afford him and I think we did well with our draft this year and Shelton in particular is exactly who we needed up front on defense. Every time I think of Shelton I think of Mudfly's pre draft prediction we would take him at #12 and his "come to papa" remark.
McCown is in the twilight of his career but if he is the starter this year I believe Pettine has a clear plan in how to use McCown to get the maximum of his ability and have his performance level close to how well he did with the Bears versus the Buccs. If Manziel can beat out McCown that would be great and I am interested to see how well Manziel can play with the good work ethic he is showing this year. I see why Pettine wanted to bring in McCown though, even at his age he brings a lot to the table and will help Manziel to develop.
Much appreciated OBF! There's a ton of good reads that will keep you parked here.
Shelton was a fun guy discuss pre-draft. He was the closest prospect we had to a consensus. Totally agree with your Farmer, Pettine and McCown pov. Well done...
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i really HOPE that this OL and running game can be parallel to some mentioned above, but i'll keep my optimism a little more bottled up until i actually see it come to fruition.
call it too many years as a browns fan or whatever but i've been down this road before only to have an injury here or a dumb ass move by a player there to see those dreams evaporate like a 20 point cavs lead.
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Its a great point. I have watched enough sweeps right or left the back cuts it up to late or to early or the pulling lineman gets there after the back is already gone. Am with you on that hope. Timing is Key to run the Ball if that's the plan and each back sees it and runs it in different running styles.
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The rest of this is going to be long and well caffeinated for those of you that don't like long posts or Flugel's dumb jock Shakespeare. Let's please stay on topic if you do read and react.
The only question I really have right now is do I need another cup of coffee?
First, no... you do not.
Second, maybe it was the disclaimer, but I read, and enjoyed, the entire post. Who knew Shakespeare played chess?
Combining your Browns' and Mud's Skins' parallels gets me to the question of how far some of the best of 80's football might take a team in today's NFL. It's going to be fun watching the answer unfold.
First, no... you do not.
Second, maybe it was the disclaimer, but I read, and enjoyed, the entire post. Who knew Shakespeare played chess?
Combining your Browns' and Mud's Skins' parallels gets me to the question of how far some of the best of 80's football might take a team in today's NFL. It's going to be fun watching the answer unfold.
I hear ya. Here's some good stuff for us to remember or put into perspective:
We played that kind of football featuring a physical running game in the 40s, 50s, 64, 80s, 94, 02 and 07. Do you what never changed in all that time? The weather off Lake Erie in October, November, December and January. Some might question 02 or 07; but in 02 rookie RB William Green averaged over 100 yards rushing in our last 6-7 games. Our run blocking in 07 was really impressive.
Our buried treasure wasn't ever drafting the QB in round 1. It was just finding the right QB for what we planned on doing. As someone else said, Kosar was the only first round QB we got right; but that was in the supplemental draft. Otto Graham was actually the 4th overall pick in the NFL draft for Detroit in 1944 - but he signed with the Browns in the All American Football Conference and began playing in 1946.
When we won 11 games in 94, Leroy Hoard made the Pro Bowl so all Testaverde had to do was throw 16 TD passes to 18 INTs.
In 1986, all Kosar had to do was throw 17 TD passes en route to 12 wins.
I always try to keep all that in mind when people/media are trying to tell us we won't be able to win in spite of our QB situation. We won 10 games with DA - who hasn't been able to start 15 consecutive games for any other NFL team. History says it isn't impossible here if we make this a much easier team to QB. This FO has been on a mission to set that up. I give Farmer & Pettine a 2 thumbs up for it.
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Johnny Idiot Face ?
I feel guilty because that was a LOL moment.
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Johnny Idiot Face ?
I feel guilty because that was a LOL moment.
Johnny Idiot Face ?
I feel guilty because that was a LOL moment.
Ha!..I saw that....funny stuff.....should we start calling him JIF?
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I felt bad for him. He is keeping out of the clubs and goes to a wrestling event and gets called out in a way (Johnny idiot face) the "rassler" didn't do with LBJ. I see no problem with JM going to baseball, basketball and wrestling events. The last time I went to see some rassling was at our county fair back in the 90's and took my son. I imagine the script never changes, the evil bad rassler totally insults the home crowd and then when he gets beat in the ring by another "good" rassler the hometwown fans go wild.
The only thing I would fault Manziel for is if this part was scripted and he knew he was going to get called out. He should have told them no thanks. If he goes to these events he does not need to be the center of attention.
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I felt bad for him. He is keeping out of the clubs and goes to a wrestling event and gets called out in a way (Johnny idiot face) the "rassler" didn't do with LBJ. I see no problem with JM going to baseball, basketball and wrestling events. The last time I went to see some rassling was at our county fair back in the 90's and took my son. I imagine the script never changes, the evil bad rassler totally insults the home crowd and then when he gets beat in the ring by another "good" rassler the hometwown fans go wild.
The only thing I would fault Manziel for is if this part was scripted and he knew he was going to get called out. He should have told them no thanks. If he goes to these events he does not need to be the center of attention.
I felt bad for him. He is keeping out of the clubs and goes to a wrestling event and gets called out in a way (Johnny idiot face) the "rassler" didn't do with LBJ. I see no problem with JM going to baseball, basketball and wrestling events. The last time I went to see some rassling was at our county fair back in the 90's and took my son. I imagine the script never changes, the evil bad rassler totally insults the home crowd and then when he gets beat in the ring by another "good" rassler the hometwown fans go wild.
The only thing I would fault Manziel for is if this part was scripted and he knew he was going to get called out. He should have told them no thanks. If he goes to these events he does not need to be the center of attention.
Im sure it was all in fun and, like you said, just part of that wrestlers schtick and entertainment for the masses......dont see anything to worry about here......
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I felt bad for him. He is keeping out of the clubs and goes to a wrestling event and gets called out in a way (Johnny idiot face) the "rassler" didn't do with LBJ. I see no problem with JM going to baseball, basketball and wrestling events. The last time I went to see some rassling was at our county fair back in the 90's and took my son. I imagine the script never changes, the evil bad rassler totally insults the home crowd and then when he gets beat in the ring by another "good" rassler the hometwown fans go wild.
The only thing I would fault Manziel for is if this part was scripted and he knew he was going to get called out. He should have told them no thanks. If he goes to these events he does not need to be the center of attention.
Im sure it was all in fun and, like you said, just part of that wrestlers schtick and entertainment for the masses......dont see anything to worry about here......
Im sure it was all in fun and, like you said, just part of that wrestlers schtick and entertainment for the masses......dont see anything to worry about here......
I agree Mudfly but wish with the the contrived insult would have been on the lines of something else as part of the schtick. Poor decision making has gotten Manziel into trouble and as he tries to break free from his past being called an idiot in front of thousands (probably millions more when the media runs with the story) is not the publicity that will help him.
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I felt bad for him. He is keeping out of the clubs and goes to a wrestling event and gets called out in a way (Johnny idiot face) the "rassler" didn't do with LBJ. I see no problem with JM going to baseball, basketball and wrestling events. The last time I went to see some rassling was at our county fair back in the 90's and took my son. I imagine the script never changes, the evil bad rassler totally insults the home crowd and then when he gets beat in the ring by another "good" rassler the hometwown fans go wild.
The only thing I would fault Manziel for is if this part was scripted and he knew he was going to get called out. He should have told them no thanks. If he goes to these events he does not need to be the center of attention.
Im sure it was all in fun and, like you said, just part of that wrestlers schtick and entertainment for the masses......dont see anything to worry about here......
Im sure it was all in fun and, like you said, just part of that wrestlers schtick and entertainment for the masses......dont see anything to worry about here......
Nothing to worry about besides the fact that from this point forward until he proves otherwise he will be known as JIF.
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Nothing to worry about besides the fact that from this point forward until he proves otherwise he will be known as JIF.
I see burnt toast jokes just around the corner....
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stolen from another thread:
@d-bone said:
NFL Network's Aditi Kinkhabwala covered the Browns' practice today and was asked "if there is any way Johnny could beat out McCown and be the starter on opening day" and she said:
"MCown would have to fall flat on his face, trip, or break every single bone in his body. Josh McCown looked phenomenal today, he is repeatedly completing long passes, this is clearly his team, guys respond to him."
"Johnny Manziel in one 11 on 11 series, I saw him fumble the snap 3 times. He's still not completing passes, he's still not looking particularly comfortable....... It's not happening, any time soon. I'm sorry, it's just not."
seems like being called idiot face is the least of his probs.
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