Unofficial official preseason WR thread...
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No, Im not down on Hartline or suffering from white receiver issues.....just trying to figure if there are any surprises in store(like Burleson) or if it's just those five guys and everyone else is out....
The one thing i see a lot of people saying that Im gonna disagree with is Gabe in the slot. Not sure why everyone has him there, as he played almost every down on the outside last year. I see him more as a deep(fly) guy and a threat on the outside. And, actually, I see Gabe as the best bet to become our top guy and have him pegged as the starter on one side.
So, why does everyone think they'll suddenly move him over to the slot?.....Just because he's short?.....
One thing they have been saying is they will mix up that slot position with some bigger mismatch players, with Hartline and Housler being named as a couple that would fill that role......so, if Hawk is the starter at slot and these big guys come in to mix it up, how would Gabe fit in here???......
So, my expected would be Gabe, Bowe and Hawkins as your 3 starters......with Hartline and Mayle coming off the bench.....
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Sorry, I just don't see Hartline not starting, especially on third downs. Watching him make so many of those tough catches and just generally being that clichΓ©d 'safety blanket' for Tannehill, there's no way he's not on the field regularly, especially as a #2, with Bowe (or Hawk) as the go-to guy.
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How do you start on 3rd down?......
Certainly you can be a big contributor and play a lot, w/o starting......I could see Hartline being a clutch 3rd down kinda guy, while still not being a starter or primary receiver....
I see Hartline, Mayle and Bowe as being very similar and offering basically the same things. Bigger bodies and average speed. While I see Gabe as offering that deep threat speed those other 2 are lacking......
So Gabe is your deep man.....Hawk is your flash in the slot.....Bowe is your bigger target......etc....
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How do you start on 3rd down?......
Certainly you can be a big contributor and play a lot, w/o starting......I could see Hartline being a clutch 3rd down kinda guy, while still not being a starter or primary receiver....
I see Hartline, Mayle and Bowe as being very similar and offering basically the same things. Bigger bodies and average speed. While I see Gabe as offering that deep threat speed those other 2 are lacking......
So Gabe is your deep man.....Hawk is your flash in the slot.....Bowe is your bigger target......etc....
How do you start on 3rd down?......
Certainly you can be a big contributor and play a lot, w/o starting......I could Hartline being a clutch 3rd down kinda guy, while still not being a starter or primary receiver....
I see Hartline, Mayle and Bowe as being very similar and offering basically the same things. Bigger bodies and average speed. While I see Gabe as offering that deep threat speed those other 2 are lacking......
So Gabe is your deep man.....Hawk is your flash in the slot.....Bowe is your bigger target......etc....
Yeah my bad on the third down stuff
I guess I'm not concerned who takes snap #1 of the game, more who plays most. I see Hartline's skillset as different to Bowe's, who offers a lot more (not as much as 2010) in terms of YAC, while Hartline is a solid route-runner, tough catch kind of a guy. Not saying Bowe's not, but Hartline makes his living with that, Bowe's always been the Josh Gordon type.
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Thats why I see Hartline going in the slot more than outside and being used on 3rd down(like you said)......using him on quick routes across the middle, short yardage situations, etc....
Though, Hartline averages about the same as Bowe career wise.....Hartline 14 ypc & Bowe 13 ypc.....while Gabe and Gordon are at 17+ ypc.....(deep threats)(and a huge difference)
Gabe puts up better #'s and had 150+ more yards on fewer catches. Averaged 5 yards per catch more(which is a LOT), so I guess I dont understand why Hartline is considered better or a deep threat(which we need).....guess well just have to see what the coaches do with them.....a nice problem to have, considering the rest of the world thinks our WR corp isnt very good......Im thinking otherwise.....
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I wouldn't consider Hartline a deep threat. I'd consider him a guy that you tell him to run a 7 yard curl and get the QB to put it on him he'll make the catch under pressure. Gabe might get smothered by a larger DB, maybe isn't in as good a position to shield the catch due to the size difference.
Couple that with the (apparently) WCO-esque passing game we'll be running and I see more of Hartline and less of Gabe. Though, that could very well change by the end of the year.
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Here's a Browns Huddle WR preview for anyone who's interested.....here and in the article below they say there is a chance for 6 and maybe even 7 receivers to make the team.....THAT would surprise me big time......
Three new faces appear in good standing to lock down roster spots at wide receiver.
The group should have a different look under first-year wide receivers coach Joker Phillips, but a couple of familiar faces promise to be marquee members in 2015.
What happened at OTAs?: One year after the Browns didnβt exactly know what they had at the position during offseason workouts, there was some welcomed clarity throughout May and June. Bowe, Hartline, Hawkins and Gabriel served as the primary options with the first-team offense. Benjamin, too, was often involved while many others, including Smith and Moore, saw some time with the players who are expected to be on the field when the season opens against the New York Jets. Gabriel, who was one of the NFLβs leaders in yards per catch last season, performed particularly well and expects to have a bigger role in this yearβs offense. Mayle, a fourth-round pick from Washington State, ran routes but wasnβt able to catch passes because of a broken thumb. Heβs expected to be ready for training camp.
Under the radar: Benjamin is the unlikely answer to the trivia question, βwho led the 2014 Browns in touchdown receptions?β The fourth-year pro out of Miami is entering a pivotal month, as he looks to not only maintain his role within the Browns wide receiving corps, but also as a return man. The competition in both areas promises to be heavier than last year, but Benjaminβs received no shortage of strong endorsements from offensive coordinator John DeFilippo, special teams coordinator Chris Tabor and general manager Ray Farmer. Heβll be one of the top players to watch at the position when camp opens later this month.
Variables to consider: Moore didnβt catch a single pass in 2014 but heβs considered to be an invaluable member on special teams β¦ Though heβs similar in stature to Hawkins, Gabriel often plays at a different spot on the field and is more of an outside receiver than a slot receiver β¦ Pryor was picked up one week after the offseason program came to a close and is transitioning from quarterback β¦ Since he arrived in Cleveland, DeFilippo has harped on his desire for a receiving corps that features players with diverse skill sets. Keep that in mind when trying to project the final player or two to make the cut.
Quote to note: βThe thing I do like about it is each guy is not the same guy. Even though Taylor Gabriel and Hawk are smaller receivers, they do have two different skillsets. Bowe and Hartline are bigger guys. I think itβd be much more of an issue if you had all small guys or all big guys. I think you can still find places on the field for those guys and putting them in situations to where they can succeed in the things that they do well.β -- offensive coordinator John DeFilippo
How many were kept last year?: Five
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I wouldn't consider Hartline a deep threat. I'd consider him a guy that you tell him to run a 7 yard curl and get the QB to put it on him he'll make the catch under pressure. Gabe might get smothered by a larger DB, maybe isn't in as good a position to shield the catch due to the size difference.
Couple that with the (apparently) WCO-esque passing game we'll be running and I see more of Hartline and less of Gabe. Though, that could very well change by the end of the year.
I see more of Hartline and less of Gabe. Though, that could very well change by the end of the year.
Thats basically what happened last year.....Austin was the starter, but ultimately played fewer snaps and had fewer targets than Gabe did(who I see as gaining momentum)....tho Austin did miss the last few games, which definitely factored in.....
The good part is that we have at least 4 guys we can probably rely on to be good receivers......a far cry from Bess, Massaquoi and Little.....
With the various sizes, skills and speed, I can see them getting mixed up....game to game.....trying to create mismatches. It wouldnt surprise me to see a different line up simply based upon who the opponent is....
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For sure. I suggest if anyone is looking at this WR corps and having doubts, they take a look at Bess, Massequoi, Little, and then guys whose names you don't even remember like Josh Cooper, Carlton Mitchell, and Jordan Norwood.
I expect them to essentially rotate through different sets and occasionally, when they find a matchup group they like go no-huddle to try to exploit it - maybe with hartline, bowe, mayle and housler on the field at the same time?
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For sure. I suggest if anyone is looking at this WR corps and having doubts, they take a look at Bess, Massequoi, Little, and then guys whose names you don't even remember like Josh Cooper, Carlton Mitchell, and Jordan Norwood.
I expect them to essentially rotate through different sets and occasionally, when they find a matchup group they like go no-huddle to try to exploit it - maybe with hartline, bowe, mayle and housler on the field at the same time?
For sure. I suggest if anyone is looking at this WR corps and having doubts, they take a look at Bess, Massequoi, Little, and then guys whose names you don't even remember like Josh Cooper, Carlton Mitchell, and Jordan Norwood.
I expect them to essentially rotate through different sets and occasionally, when they find a matchup group they like go no-huddle to try to exploit it - maybe with hartline, bowe, mayle and housler on the field at the same time?
If Pryor makes the cut and is even a half serviceable receiver, could you imagine a red zone package of Bowe, Mayle, Pryor and Housler?
6'2" | 33 inch vert
6'2" | 35 inch vert
6'4" | 32 inch vert
6'5" | 37 inch vert
That's a group of athletic big bodies. One in to block, three out to receive. Two in to block, receiver out of the backfield. Four wide. End around with Pryor. Pryor in motion for an end around pass, with Housler and Bowe running flood for gaps in the zone. PA bootleg end around, play side tight end back corner fade, backside tight end drag, wide out 10 and sit. Two tight, interior zone run. Two tight, PA sluggos. Two tight, PA bootleg flood.
When you have a personnel grouping that isn't so one-dimensional, the opportunities are endless. I loved our WR corps last year for their grit and surprising production, but a stable of sub- 5-10" receivers severely limits the playbook.
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Sounds like Pryor certainly is taking it seriously and working hard.....
Apparently he's been attending Randy Moss' WR camp and working out with Moss, Antonio Brown, Mike Evans and the one and only Josh Gordon....(who I am elated to see working so hard AND helping a potential teammate get better when there is a whole year to sit.....that is a good sign).....
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It would be great if Pryor did somehow pull a decent WR career out of a failed QB career.
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It would be great if Pryor did somehow pull a decent WR career out of a failed QB career.
It would be great if Pryor did somehow pull a decent WR career out of a failed QB career.
well he could always get a job a CRUNCH gym.
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It would be great if Pryor did somehow pull a decent WR career out of a failed QB career.
It would be great if Pryor did somehow pull a decent WR career out of a failed QB career.
Pryor is making all of the right moves, that's for sure.
Training with Randy Moss - check.
Training with Steve Smith - check.
Training with Antonio Brown - check.
Training with Mike Evans - check.
He's got them all covered. A former great #1 destined for the Hall of Fame. A current great #1 at the tail end of his career. A current great #1 just hitting his stride. A future great #1 that is just beginning his career. And a potential great #1 that smoked himself out of the league.
I am very intrigued by Pryor. His footwork is hot garbage as of right now, but three weeks ago it was molten garbage - so there's a slight improvement.
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Ok....lets talk WR, because it is a bit congested at the back end and should prove to be one of the deeper competitions during TC.....
First....last year we carried only 5, so if 5 is the number, it's gonna be tight picking the last one(or 2)...and before suggesting we keep an extra, keep in mind there is much talk about keeping and extra DB and DL based upon the depth at those positions.....plus talk about keeping an extra QB(3) to protect Shaw and make sure we have the depth at back up...so if we keep 3 extra at those positions, little chance well be keeping 6 WR's......
I see 3 guys as shoo-ins to make the team.....Hawkins, Gabriel and Bowe should be the top 3...
5 Next level guys are fighting for those other 2 spots.....Benjiman, Mayle, Hartline, Moore & Pryor
Then, we have another couple presumably promising up and comers in Rodney Smith & Josh Lenz
And the looooong shots of Wynn, Jennings & Cone
So.....ten guys fighting for 2 spots(basically).....
I dont have a prediction on these guys, cause we just haven't seen them yet...but some thoughts.....
Mayle is one I hope flashes and shows he is good enough to keep around. His size and numbers would be a nice fit......
Hartline looks like a nice veteran pick up, but then again, so did Nate Burleson last season(could it be the same story line?).....I say thats a possibility......haven't really heard a peep about him so far, which maybe doesnt mean much.....but then again, if we was lighting it up, I think we'd hear about it...
Pryor is one we've discussed. A long shot, but uber talented and a major threat to score every time he touches the ball. Could be the dark horse here.
Benjiman is one I see losing out here. Unless he explodes as a returner during preseason.....and he needs to hope that Gilbert, Gaines or Johnson dont, cause if they handle that return thingy, then Benji is outside looking in.....
And Moore, I think, is done....along with the rest(cept one or 2 for PS maybe)....
Ok....lets talk WR, because it is a bit congested at the back end and should prove to be one of the deeper competitions during TC.....
First....last year we carried only 5, so if 5 is the number, it's gonna be tight picking the last one(or 2)...and before suggesting we keep an extra, keep in mind there is much talk about keeping and extra DB and DL based upon the depth at those positions.....plus talk about keeping an extra QB(3) to protect Shaw and make sure we have the depth at back up...so if we keep 3 extra at those positions, little chance well be keeping 6 WR's......
I see 3 guys as shoo-ins to make the team.....Hawkins, Gabriel and Bowe should be the top 3...
5 Next level guys are fighting for those other 2 spots.....Benjiman, Mayle, Hartline, Moore & Pryor
Then, we have another couple presumably promising up and comers in Rodney Smith & Josh Lenz
And the looooong shots of Wynn, Jennings & Cone
So.....ten guys fighting for 2 spots(basically).....
Excellent write up Mud!
When Travis Benjamin led our WR Corps with 3 TD receptions in spot duty - Farmer & Pettine prioritized adding size to our perimeter and red zone in particular. These the ideas competing to represent the upgrade in mind:
Dwayne Bowe 6'2"
Mike Hartline 6'2"
Vince Mayle 6'3"
Rodney Smith 6'5"
T. Pryor 6'2"
Here's some encouraging facts from the guys returning to give me the feeling they'll blend well with who sticks above:
1) Benjamin and Gabriel averaged 17.4 and 17.3 yards per catch respectively.
2) Hawkins led us targets (112) and receptions (63)
If I had to guess - we'll keep 6 WRs and use one as a return specialist or as a QB for the extra point conversion thing. Here's the 6 I think we'll keep:
1) Dwayne Bowe
2) Mike Hartline
3) Andrew Hawkins
4) Taylor Gabriel
5) Vince Mayle
and now for the controversial laugh me out of the discussion keeper:
6) Travis Benjamin - Who's faster? Who caught more TD passes? Who averaged more yards per catch? How often did you see him drop the ball? He's improved a lot as a WR, which is what you want from guys you've invested time and coaching into. I think his speed is exactly what D. Bowe was missing on the other side of formation in KC last year. It's more than 2 years post op so I'm betting he regains his elite return skills.
Practice Squad - Rodney Smith
It'll be fun to watch this competition shake out with an open mind...
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
It would be great if Pryor did somehow pull a decent WR career out of a failed QB career.
Pryor is making all of the right moves, that's for sure.
Training with Randy Moss - check.
Training with Steve Smith - check.
Training with Antonio Brown - check.
Training with Mike Evans - check.
He's got them all covered. A former great #1 destined for the Hall of Fame. A current great #1 at the tail end of his career. A current great #1 just hitting his stride. A future great #1 that is just beginning his career. And a potential great #1 that smoked himself out of the league.
I am very intrigued by Pryor. His footwork is hot garbage as of right now, but three weeks ago it was molten garbage - so there's a slight improvement.
Pryor is making all of the right moves, that's for sure.
Training with Randy Moss - check.
Training with Steve Smith - check.
Training with Antonio Brown - check.
Training with Mike Evans - check.
He's got them all covered. A former great #1 destined for the Hall of Fame. A current great #1 at the tail end of his career. A current great #1 just hitting his stride. A future great #1 that is just beginning his career. And a potential great #1 that smoked himself out of the league.
I am very intrigued by Pryor. His footwork is hot garbage as of right now, but three weeks ago it was molten garbage - so there's a slight improvement.
I hear we're approaching tepid garbage.
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Ok....lets talk WR, because it is a bit congested at the back end and should prove to be one of the deeper competitions during TC.....
First....last year we carried only 5, so if 5 is the number, it's gonna be tight picking the last one(or 2)...and before suggesting we keep an extra, keep in mind there is much talk about keeping and extra DB and DL based upon the depth at those positions.....plus talk about keeping an extra QB(3) to protect Shaw and make sure we have the depth at back up...so if we keep 3 extra at those positions, little chance well be keeping 6 WR's......
I see 3 guys as shoo-ins to make the team.....Hawkins, Gabriel and Bowe should be the top 3...
5 Next level guys are fighting for those other 2 spots.....Benjiman, Mayle, Hartline, Moore & Pryor
Then, we have another couple presumably promising up and comers in Rodney Smith & Josh Lenz
And the looooong shots of Wynn, Jennings & Cone
So.....ten guys fighting for 2 spots(basically).....
Excellent write up Mud!
When Travis Benjamin led our WR Corps with 3 TD receptions in spot duty - Farmer & Pettine prioritized adding size to our perimeter and red zone in particular. These the ideas competing to represent the upgrade in mind:
Dwayne Bowe 6'2"
Mike Hartline 6'2"
Vince Mayle 6'3"
Rodney Smith 6'5"
T. Pryor 6'2"
Here's some encouraging facts from the guys returning to give me the feeling they'll blend well with who sticks above:
1) Benjamin and Gabriel averaged 17.4 and 17.3 yards per catch respectively.
2) Hawkins led us targets (112) and receptions (63)
If I had to guess - we'll keep 6 WRs and use one as a return specialist or as a QB for the extra point conversion thing. Here's the 6 I think we'll keep:
1) Dwayne Bowe
2) Mike Hartline
3) Andrew Hawkins
4) Taylor Gabriel
5) Vince Mayle
and now for the controversial laugh me out of the discussion keeper:
6) Travis Benjamin - Who's faster? Who caught more TD passes? Who averaged more yards per catch? How often did you see him drop the ball? He's improved a lot as a WR, which is what you want from guys you've invested time and coaching into. I think his speed is exactly what D. Bowe was missing on the other side of formation in KC last year. It's more than 2 years post op so I'm betting he regains his elite return skills.
Practice Squad - Rodney Smith
It'll be fun to watch this competition shake out with an open mind...
Excellent write up Mud!
When Travis Benjamin led our WR Corps with 3 TD receptions in spot duty - Farmer & Pettine prioritized adding size to our perimeter and red zone in particular. These the ideas competing to represent the upgrade in mind:
Dwayne Bowe 6'2"
Mike Hartline 6'2"
Vince Mayle 6'3"
Rodney Smith 6'5"
T. Pryor 6'2"
Here's some encouraging facts from the guys returning to give me the feeling they'll blend well with who sticks above:
1) Benjamin and Gabriel averaged 17.4 and 17.3 yards per catch respectively.
2) Hawkins led us targets (112) and receptions (63)
If I had to guess - we'll keep 6 WRs and use one as a return specialist or as a QB for the extra point conversion thing. Here's the 6 I think we'll keep:
1) Dwayne Bowe
2) Mike Hartline
3) Andrew Hawkins
4) Taylor Gabriel
5) Vince Mayle
and now for the controversial laugh me out of the discussion keeper:
6) Travis Benjamin - Who's faster? Who caught more TD passes? Who averaged more yards per catch? How often did you see him drop the ball? He's improved a lot as a WR, which is what you want from guys you've invested time and coaching into. I think his speed is exactly what D. Bowe was missing on the other side of formation in KC last year. It's more than 2 years post op so I'm betting he regains his elite return skills.
Practice Squad - Rodney Smith
It'll be fun to watch this competition shake out with an open mind...
Pryor is more like 6'4 or 6'5" not 6-2
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One thing I did not see considered to this point is that we are a running team.
Last year that meant that we featured a single-back/two-TE set with only 2 WRs on the field. I don't see that changing unless one of our FB candidates shines bringing in more 2B1TE sets... again with 2 WRs. I see our starting two being Bowe and Gabe. Everything else is situational.
As for the number of WRs making the 53-man roster... 7 seems high to me. Last year five was it, but Josh was always looming. So six this year is plausible, if the talent warrants it and the PS is not an option for a promising WR.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
One thing I did not see considered to this point is that we are a running team.
Last year that meant that we featured a single-back/two-TE set with only 2 WRs on the field. I don't see that changing unless one of our FB candidates shines bringing in more 2B1TE sets... again with 2 WRs. I see our starting two being Bowe and Gabe. Everything else is situational.
As for the number of WRs making the 53-man roster... 7 seems high to me. Last year five was it, but Josh was always looming. So six this year is plausible, if the talent warrants it and the PS is not an option for a promising WR.
One thing I did not see considered to this point is that we are a running team.
Last year that meant that we featured a single-back/two-TE set with only 2 WRs on the field. I don't see that changing unless one of our FB candidates shines bringing in more 2B1TE sets... again with 2 WRs. I see our starting two being Bowe and Gabe. Everything else is situational.
As for the number of WRs making the 53-man roster... 7 seems high to me. Last year five was it, but Josh was always looming. So six this year is plausible, if the talent warrants it and the PS is not an option for a promising WR.
Ahhh....someone else who agrees that Gabe is our #2 outside.....
7 seems high to me too.....Browns are gonna keep our best 53 and I dont think WR is where the extras will be found.....
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Here is what I see as a well written and well researched article on Hartline from last season.....and it basically concludes what I feel about him, which is that he has dependable hands...but is very limited in speed, route running, etc....and not really #2 WR material(which was evident last season when he was moved back to #3, behind Wallace & Jarvis Landry)...
Now Jarvis Landry was ranked by PFF as the 3rd best rookie WR last year.......so it's understandable that he'd move ahead of Hartline.....
Who was ranked as the 4th best?.......Gabe......
Not trying to slam Hartline...just being realistic that he's pretty average and best used as a situational player....
And trying to plug our own guy who had one of the best rookie seasons of ALL the supposedly AMAZING WR's drafted last year..
Our own Rodney Dangerfield....no respect, I tell ya....
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