Jonathan Paul Manziel
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But it was determined in the summer and it was claimed in the summer that it was due to Johnny's major suckage under center and McCown's dominance there. I've proven the latter is nonexistent.
No, it wasn't and you haven't.
The under-center point was raised about three posts ago by me. It was an opinion based upon observation.
You've "proved" nothing.
Josh was named #1 going in camp because he was the better QB going into camp.
I think the same will be true going into the regular season... in part because of his play-action skill from under center.
You don't agree
Cool... but don't pretend it's anything more than that.
No, it wasn't and you haven't.
The under-center point was raised about three posts ago by me. It was an opinion based upon observation.
You've "proved" nothing.
Josh was named #1 going in camp because he was the better QB going into camp.
I think the same will be true going into the regular season... in part because of his play-action skill from under center.
You don't agree
Cool... but don't pretend it's anything more than that.
I can post actual stats all day. You can say "I watched him!" Doesn't take a logician to figure out whose "proof" is better.
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But it was determined in the summer and it was claimed in the summer that it was due to Johnny's major suckage under center and McCown's dominance there. I've proven the latter is nonexistent. You guys keep acting like he was named the starter just this past weekend. If that were the case, you'd have a case.
McCown was named the starter in the offseason because, at that point, he looked like a better NFL QB than Johnny Manziel. And, at this point, he still does look like a better NFL QB.
Manziel was in an open competition last year. He didn't earn the job. He then got the job by default late in the season. He proved to be less than stellar.
McCown earned the job this season by being offered the job. It's his job to lose. At no point has Manziel shown that he should overtake McCown.
Whenever he does, then we'll talk. Until then, he just needs to keep pounding and earn his reps, like everyone else in the league.
The only thing that you have proven is that you can't grasp the concept of "the best player plays".
McCown was named the starter in the offseason because, at that point, he looked like a better NFL QB than Johnny Manziel. And, at this point, he still does look like a better NFL QB.
Manziel was in an open competition last year. He didn't earn the job. He then got the job by default late in the season. He proved to be less than stellar.
McCown earned the job this season by being offered the job. It's his job to lose. At no point has Manziel shown that he should overtake McCown.
Whenever he does, then we'll talk. Until then, he just needs to keep pounding and earn his reps, like everyone else in the league.
The only thing that you have proven is that you can't grasp the concept of "the best player plays".
Well that (since it's a complete myth anyway), and that McCown is not some amazing under center snap taker.
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And this short into TC I think we are right on schedule with all. This is gonna be a good season overall. They are building a team that does not rely on a "star" QB to pull the fat out of the fire every possession. They are building one with a stellar D that just needs an O to at least help keep the other team off the field for half the game with a few first downs as often as possible and some scores when opportunity presents. Staff thinks they will be able to do that.
See, this is something I just disagree on when people mention it. I don't see how in any shape or form you can win more than 7, 8 games without a franchise QB. You can reach that "mediocre" level sure, maybe even sneak into the playoffs. But that strategy will never work long-term, at least IMO.
See, this is something I just disagree on when people mention it. I don't see how in any shape or form you can win more than 7, 8 games without a franchise QB. You can reach that "mediocre" level sure, maybe even sneak into the playoffs. But that strategy will never work long-term, at least IMO.
Buffalo last year says hello as well.
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Your post strongly implied Manziek was a celeb. He caused a circus. So name McCown the starter.
You keep going back to practice when I am asking what in McCown's history made him the anointed starter PRIOR TO training camp. It certainly is not his ability to play under center, which is the commonly cited reason.
Yes...you do have a way of "adding words" to what I said.....it was a circus and created a distraction and prevented the team from practicing on a regular basis with one QB......what I did NOT say was "Manziek was a celeb. He caused a circus"......those are words you added.....and not what I was implying...
We've had QB comps before Johnny too....they are never what you prefer....its best to have a #1....
And, when we signed McCown...yes, he was named #1....and, at the same time, Johnny was in rehab with zero indication if/when he might return....so,theres that....McCown was the only option.
Ive never heard anyone associated with the team saying we picked him up due to his ability to play under center....ever. Ive only heard them say they needed maturity and leadership and needed someone to execute a basic "run first" offense, that hopefully will be supported by strong defense. Then I heard them(The Browns) say they liked the way McCown played in Chicago and they felt, based upon that tape, that McCown would fit our scheme well....thats why we signed him ....its been printed and said a millions times by Farmer...Pettine...etc...
And....just last week, Pettine said AGAIN, that we have to have a #1 to properly prepare.....But the door was open for anyone to step up and take that job....and he would NOT say the McCown was his day 1 starter....
That is hair splitting of the microscopic sort. We are saying the same thing.Yes...you do have a way of "adding words" to what I said.....it was a circus and created a distraction and prevented the team from practicing on a regular basis with one QB......what I did NOT say was "Manziek was a celeb. He caused a circus"......those are words you added.....and not what I was implying...
We've had QB comps before Johnny too....they are never what you prefer....its best to have a #1....
And, when we signed McCown...yes, he was named #1....and, at the same time, Johnny was in rehab with zero indication if/when he might return....so,theres that....McCown was the only option.
Ive never heard anyone associated with the team saying we picked him up due to his ability to play under center....ever. Ive only heard them say they needed maturity and leadership and needed someone to execute a basic "run first" offense, that hopefully will be supported by strong defense. Then I heard them(The Browns) say they liked the way McCown played in Chicago and they felt, based upon that tape, that McCown would fit our scheme well....thats why we signed him ....its been printed and said a millions times by Farmer...Pettine...etc...
And....just last week, Pettine said AGAIN, that we have to have a #1 to properly prepare.....But the door was open for anyone to step up and take that job....and he would NOT say the McCown was his day 1 starter....
I'm not talking about guys associated with the team. I'm talking about the groundswell of McCown supporters here. If "guys associated with the team" is the only standard by which truth is revealed then we can pretty much toss the "Johnny was Jimmy's pick" theory. I wish I could hop in a time machine and go back two months. Just post "why did we need to sign McCown" and I'm pretty sure a solid 50+% of the responses would have had to do with Johnny being terrible under center. Ergo, we need a guy who is better at taking snaps under center (yes this is an implication, which I know you don't believe in but they're all around). This isn't rocket science. And no, team officials aren't going to come out and say "yeah, Johnny Manziel under center is about as good as a screen door on a submarine" (yes, I'm exaggerating what you said they didn't say). That wasn't my point. I was talking about the fans' opinion.
Also (and this is no longer a response to you Mudfly, just don't feel like doing a new post), a lot of people are simplistically hitting me with the "Josh McCown is the starter because he is better right now." K thanks, bros, way to completely miss the nuances of the discussion we're having. Although I would point you to a ton of teams out there that have started their young draftee at QB over a better (at the time) veteran. But since we're apparently still in the "under THIS staff, the better players will be starting 100% of the time, no exceptions, and the staff's eyes are always to be trusted!" phase of the new regime, I suppose that's not in the cards. And to be clear, I think McCown should start at the moment. I just arrive at that conclusion for much different reasons than everyone else.
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McCown was named the starter in the offseason because, at that point, he looked like a better NFL QB than Johnny Manziel. And, at this point, he still does look like a better NFL QB.
Manziel was in an open competition last year. He didn't earn the job. He then got the job by default late in the season. He proved to be less than stellar.
McCown earned the job this season by being offered the job. It's his job to lose. At no point has Manziel shown that he should overtake McCown.
Whenever he does, then we'll talk. Until then, he just needs to keep pounding and earn his reps, like everyone else in the league.
The only thing that you have proven is that you can't grasp the concept of "the best player plays".
Well that (since it's a complete myth anyway), and that McCown is not some amazing under center snap taker.
Well that (since it's a complete myth anyway), and that McCown is not some amazing under center snap taker.
It's a complete myth that McCown was the better NFL QB when he was signed here?
I have career completion percentage, YPG, YPA, TD percentage, INT percentage, and QB rating that would say otherwise.
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I hope that JFF starts and excels. McCown's lifetime in the NFL is very short and he is nothing but a short term QB.
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I was thinking exactly the same thing. Without Beastmode (and a great D) that team would be average.
Well of course they do, but if you don't consider Russell Wilson a franchise QB idk what else to say really. We've had good RB's and defenses so why haven't we gotten to the SB? I'm honestly really surprised so many people see this differently, it's plain as day to me.
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Sorry, I keep reading this thread, and Warpo is not making sense,
and JRB is wrong about something.
See, this is something I just disagree on when people mention it. I don't see how in any shape or form you can win more than 7, 8 games without a franchise QB. JRB
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It depends on how complete your team is. If you have a talented offense, and
a talented defense, you could pick up an Andy Dalton and win ten games and
go to the playoffs.
2014 Bengals.
Record 10–5–1 Division place 2nd AFC North Playoff finish Wild Card Playoffs (Colts) Lost 26–10 -
I was thinking exactly the same thing. Without Beastmode (and a great D) that team would be average.
Well of course they do, but if you don't consider Russell Wilson a franchise QB idk what else to say really. We've had good RB's and defenses so why haven't we gotten to the SB? I'm honestly really surprised so many people see this differently, it's plain as day to me.
Well of course they do, but if you don't consider Russell Wilson a franchise QB idk what else to say really. We've had good RB's and defenses so why haven't we gotten to the SB? I'm honestly really surprised so many people see this differently, it's plain as day to me.
Actually I do. But you also have to have a complete team around him starting with a great D and a franchise RB. Browns are building it right this time. D and run game first, QB second. You have to have a true base before you throw someone new to the NFL into the fire and ask him to run the show. QB's don't just grow on trees. They took an athlete and hope to shape him into the QB they need when all the other pieces are there. One thing no one can dispute about JM is that the kid is an athlete. He has excelled at every sport he loves. Scratch golfer, over .400 hitter in Texas baseball and then the Heisman. Unlike many here the Browns have not given up hope yet that the athlete they have MAY be THE ONE.
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Well of course they do, but if you don't consider Russell Wilson a franchise QB idk what else to say really. We've had good RB's and defenses so why haven't we gotten to the SB? I'm honestly really surprised so many people see this differently, it's plain as day to me.
Actually I do. But you also have to have a complete team around him starting with a great D and a franchise RB. Browns are building it right this time. D and run game first, QB second. You have to have a true base before you throw someone new to the NFL into the fire and ask him to run the show. QB's don't just grow on trees. They took an athlete and hope to shape him into the QB they need when all the other pieces are there. One thing no one can dispute about JM is that the kid is an athlete. He has excelled at every sport he loves. Scratch golfer, over .400 hitter in Texas baseball and then the Heisman. Unlike many here the Browns have not given up hope yet that the athlete they have MAY be THE ONE.
Unlike many here the Browns have not given up hope yet that the athlete they have MAY be THE ONE.
Most of us still have "hope"......he MAY be the one......so, after 15+ months of waiting, he's put up a couple good days and some not so good days.......are we now seeing the first glimpses of effort and confidence and quality play starting to show up???.....maybe.....?
Fingers crossed......(big time)....
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Been hearing and seeing some comments here that JM had a pretty good day yesterday.
Four clips here of some nice throws/plays by JM yesterday :
Take the rest of the article with quite a bit of salt as they end by saying maybe JM should get some Regular Season play time . . .
Please let's not go there again this year, last thing we need . . . JM needs more seasoning, and to me right now he's working to get the #2 spot, not Starter.
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Well of course they do, but if you don't consider Russell Wilson a franchise QB idk what else to say really. We've had good RB's and defenses so why haven't we gotten to the SB? I'm honestly really surprised so many people see this differently, it's plain as day to me.
Actually I do. But you also have to have a complete team around him starting with a great D and a franchise RB. Browns are building it right this time. D and run game first, QB second. You have to have a true base before you throw someone new to the NFL into the fire and ask him to run the show. QB's don't just grow on trees. They took an athlete and hope to shape him into the QB they need when all the other pieces are there. One thing no one can dispute about JM is that the kid is an athlete. He has excelled at every sport he loves. Scratch golfer, over .400 hitter in Texas baseball and then the Heisman. Unlike many here the Browns have not given up hope yet that the athlete they have MAY be THE ONE.
Actually I do. But you also have to have a complete team around him starting with a great D and a franchise RB. Browns are building it right this time. D and run game first, QB second. You have to have a true base before you throw someone new to the NFL into the fire and ask him to run the show. QB's don't just grow on trees. They took an athlete and hope to shape him into the QB they need when all the other pieces are there. One thing no one can dispute about JM is that the kid is an athlete. He has excelled at every sport he loves. Scratch golfer, over .400 hitter in Texas baseball and then the Heisman. Unlike many here the Browns have not given up hope yet that the athlete they have MAY be THE ONE.
Yeah, I mean I don't disagree with that at all. I'm not trying to suggest that having a franchise QB alone makes a SB team cause obviously that's not true. I'm not opposed to finding the QB "last" (see Seahawks) but the fact of the matter is you still have to find the QB. You can have an elite defense (see Cardinals last season) or a beast run game (see Vikings pre-AP beats his kids days) even go as far as the playoffs, sure. But a team will never get the ultimate prize without a true, top-tier signal caller.
What I mean to say overall is that the QB is the engine that makes the car run. And I'm about as optimistic of a Browns fan there can be but I'm FAR from sold that dude is on the roster this year. But hey, nothing we as fans can do but watch and loudly yell at the bar right?
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What I mean to say overall is that the QB is the engine that makes the car run. JRB
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"ahem"... Bengals...2014....
The QB is the steering wheel. The offensive line is the engine. The rb's, TE's and wr's ...are the wheels.
The Browns were running the race really well last year, til one of their engines' cylinders got injured, as in Mack.
And Warpo - I -think- you are saying, that Johnny is the best qb, the best althlete...and the best player isn't playing, except you are
saying that you agree that McCown should still start, except ...... eh..... and McCown isn't better under center...
....... ???
Anyways, McCown's experience in the league is worth it's weight in gold, as is the case for this teamwork, excellent
maturity and ability to help the other qb's, his leadership, and his stronger arm than Hoyer.
Always seems to some people, that any qb having to deal with a lack of talent around him, "isn't a good or great qb".
But any qb with a ton of talent around him, "is a good or great qb".
It will be very interesting, to see McCown play with a complete, talented cast, especially the offensive line,
rather than what he had to struggle with in the past.
I think Andy Dalton is the best example of what I'm saying. You put Andy Dalton with the Browns four years ago,
and he would fare no better than Colt McCoy.
We just need to hope that when Johnny does come in, he's ready to roll and be the qb everybody
needs him to be, the best he can be.
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No, it wasn't and you haven't.
The under-center point was raised about three posts ago by me. It was an opinion based upon observation.
You've "proved" nothing.
Josh was named #1 going in camp because he was the better QB going into camp.
I think the same will be true going into the regular season... in part because of his play-action skill from under center.
You don't agree
Cool... but don't pretend it's anything more than that.
I can post actual stats all day. You can say "I watched him!" Doesn't take a logician to figure out whose "proof" is better.
I can post actual stats all day. You can say "I watched him!" Doesn't take a logician to figure out whose "proof" is better.
Then go for it.... I've got "all day"...
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Jim Donovan said Manziel had a terrific day, completing 70%
of his passes, and really looking good.
Hard work will pay off.
Only 70%? That's a major drop-off from Friday's one incompletion.
I have a quote for you from my 7 y.o. grandson to his Mom and grandmother when they went into the hall closet during a tornado warning about 6 weeks ago, "We're doomed!" LOL
But I'd rather defer to Bitonio: Taken from a article today by Pat McManamon, ESPN Staff Writer
"His mentality is night and day from last year," guard Joel Bitonio said. "He's focused in the meetings. He's determined to be better. I think the naked eye can say how he's approaching practice. He's trying to be a good football player. He's frustrated when he does stuff bad. He's excited when he does stuff well.
"He wants to be the best and I think that's the right mentality to have and he really improved that," Bitonio continued. "He's taking notes in meetings; he's on top of things. There's definitely an improvement and I think these preseason games are going to be valuable for him to get back on the field and kind of get his bearings back."
But I'd rather defer to Bitonio: Taken from a article today by Pat McManamon, ESPN Staff Writer
"He's taking notes in meetings..."
Revolutionary!
You do realize that McCown threw his first pick of camp yesterday...
It was a Kruger tip that Williams made a diving INT on to end the day's CamoCompetition.
Hey guys.
Welcome back...
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Id say there are pros and cons to the shotgun......
Hey, if thats what Johnny needs to succeed, then Im all for it.....whatever it takes....BUT, if it's the only formation that you can play from, then thats an issue and seriously diminishes the offensive options(and definitely makes life easier for the D).....
Also kind of stifles the running game. If we can only pass from the shotgun, then it'll be easy for D's to anticipate the play if our QB lines up under center.........
And, yes, shotgun forces the QB to take his eyes off the D and concentrate on receiving the snap....while QB's under center can scan the D the whole time.....no need to look away......
Also kind of stifles the running game. If we can only pass from the shotgun, then it'll be easy for D's to anticipate the play if our QB lines up under center.........
And, yes, shotgun forces the QB to take his eyes off the D and concentrate on receiving the snap....while QB's under center can scan the D the whole time.....no need to look away......
Exactly !
It's difficult to develope a SMASH MOUTH mentality spending too much time in the gun/pistol.
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Well of course they do, but if you don't consider Russell Wilson a franchise QB idk what else to say really. We've had good RB's and defenses so why haven't we gotten to the SB? I'm honestly really surprised so many people see this differently, it's plain as day to me.
Actually I do. But you also have to have a complete team around him starting with a great D and a franchise RB. Browns are building it right this time. D and run game first, QB second. You have to have a true base before you throw someone new to the NFL into the fire and ask him to run the show. QB's don't just grow on trees. They took an athlete and hope to shape him into the QB they need when all the other pieces are there. One thing no one can dispute about JM is that the kid is an athlete. He has excelled at every sport he loves. Scratch golfer, over .400 hitter in Texas baseball and then the Heisman. Unlike many here the Browns have not given up hope yet that the athlete they have MAY be THE ONE.
Point taken Mr Manziel.Actually I do. But you also have to have a complete team around him starting with a great D and a franchise RB. Browns are building it right this time. D and run game first, QB second. You have to have a true base before you throw someone new to the NFL into the fire and ask him to run the show. QB's don't just grow on trees. They took an athlete and hope to shape him into the QB they need when all the other pieces are there. One thing no one can dispute about JM is that the kid is an athlete. He has excelled at every sport he loves. Scratch golfer, over .400 hitter in Texas baseball and then the Heisman. Unlike many here the Browns have not given up hope yet that the athlete they have MAY be THE ONE.
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What I mean to say overall is that the QB is the engine that makes the car run. JRB
*********************************
"ahem"... Bengals...2014....
The QB is the steering wheel. The offensive line is the engine. The rb's, TE's and wr's ...are the wheels.
The Browns were running the race really well last year, til one of their engines' cylinders got injured, as in Mack.
And Warpo - I -think- you are saying, that Johnny is the best qb, the best althlete...and the best player isn't playing, except you are
saying that you agree that McCown should still start, except ...... eh..... and McCown isn't better under center...
....... ???
Anyways, McCown's experience in the league is worth it's weight in gold, as is the case for this teamwork, excellent
maturity and ability to help the other qb's, his leadership, and his stronger arm than Hoyer.
Always seems to some people, that any qb having to deal with a lack of talent around him, "isn't a good or great qb".
But any qb with a ton of talent around him, "is a good or great qb".
It will be very interesting, to see McCown play with a complete, talented cast, especially the offensive line,
rather than what he had to struggle with in the past.
I think Andy Dalton is the best example of what I'm saying. You put Andy Dalton with the Browns four years ago,
and he would fare no better than Colt McCoy.
We just need to hope that when Johnny does come in, he's ready to roll and be the qb everybody
needs him to be, the best he can be.
What I mean to say overall is that the QB is the engine that makes the car run. JRB
*********************************
"ahem"... Bengals...2014....
The QB is the steering wheel. The offensive line is the engine. The rb's, TE's and wr's ...are the wheels.
The Browns were running the race really well last year, til one of their engines' cylinders got injured, as in Mack.
All I can say is that we agree to disagree. Mack going down certainly hurt a lot, but I'd point to the much larger elephant in the room that Hoyer stopped completing passes, played bad and got figured out for what he was. I'd point to the years since 1999 and 1 playoff appearance to show for it as proof. We've had (and have) good OL, good defense, good RB's etc..the one thing we've never had is a good QB. Also, look at the playoffs from the past 5 years. What's the common denominator there?
Again, I'm not saying a QB wins a SB by himself, but we are never going to see another SB champion with Trent Dilfer under center. But, it's certainly not a bad plan at all to find the QB "last" and have an elite team already built.
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