Armonty fucking Bryant...

[Clevfan4life]

I've been saying for the last 2-3 years this our most talented edge guy. We're such a better team with 4 down lineman and him being one of the DE's. Even though he was still doing an alright job as the 5 tech DE last year, his talents are really wasted as a DL in a 3-4. He shouldn't be the guy fighting off a whole lot of double teams. He should be lined up against the tackle. We'd have such a better rotation throughout the whole front too. I think we get Kruger too tired throughout the game by standing him up and playing him kind of like a weak side backer. I saw a little bit of year one Kruger today on some snaps when he had his hand in the ground, problem is he got tired and then started coming off the line slow.

Our DL rotation could be Meder, Shelton, Starks, Hughes, D. Bryant. Our DE rotation could consist of A. Bryant, Kruger, Solomon, Orchard, Mingo. Both Bryants can be moved around through the whole line as depth if some injury occurred...Mingo could be moved to the LB'ing corp if there was a matchup there....we just need to have most of these aforementioned guys on the field more together. I feel like our current scheme is slightly nerfing us even though we had a good game today. I think our edges aren't getting the rotation they need cause it looks like they get tired and something bounces big time to the outside. That's my only explanation for some of the glaring edge collapses today. But we shored up the interior for sure that was a good job out of someone. Not sure if it was a scheme tweak or not, but someone ought to do an analysis on the game tape to see why interior runs were for the most part stuffed today.

Back to Armonty though, guy has serious pass rush skills. Best hand fighter on our team, only Desmond matches up with him. Would love to see packages with Shelton and Meder in the interior and the Bryants lined up as DE's. I think we'd be seeing more consistent pressure with that front than any line since the team came back to Cleveland.

[Comeonman]

Agreed. Would love to see that four man front. Good post

[Opal312]

Really good post! Do you have any input with the coaching staff?

[Kvoethe]

+ 1 someone should forward this to pettine

[Clevfan4life]

@kvoethe said:

+ 1 someone should forward this to pettine

well, if I grew out a goatee I could pass as a convincing impersonator of his. Then I could sneak into some team meetings maybe. DC would be running base 4-3's all day next week and Pettine would walk up to Oneil and say when did you decide this? lols

[Mudfly]

PFF gave AB 3 sacks yesterday.....nice start!

And, speaking of LB's....looks like Craig Robertson wants his job back from Kirksey.....

[gftChris]

@mudfly said:

PFF gave AB 3 sacks yesterday.....nice start!

And, speaking of LB's....looks like Craig Robertson wants his job back from Kirksey.....

Kirksey blowing up that screen to Douglas though...pretty.

[Clevfan4life]

@mudfly said:

PFF gave AB 3 sacks yesterday.....nice start!

And, speaking of LB's....looks like Craig Robertson wants his job back from Kirksey.....

I see no reason why Robertson and Kirksey are mutually exclusive on this team. There should be a constant rotation of those guys. And frankly i'd love to see a base 4-3 with Dansby, Kirksey and Robertson in there all at the same time with Mingo coming in for specific cover duties.

[gftChris]

@clevfan4life said:

I see no reason why Robertson and Kirksey are mutually exclusive on this team. There should be a constant rotation of those guys. And frankly i'd love to see a base 4-3 with Dansby, Kirksey and Robertson in there all at the same time with Mingo coming in for specific cover duties.

Can we change you to 'Clevefan4-3life'?

Seriously though, Robertson's best season to date was his first, running out of Dick Juaron's 4-3.

[Mudfly]

@gftchris said:

Seriously though, Robertson's best season to date was his first, running out of Dick Juaron's 4-3.

Id debate that.....for sure....

He was not good in 2012 and led the team in missed tackles(and was the 3rd from last rated player on the team)....and in 2013 he was just terrible(lowest rated player on the team)....2014 was his first year with a positive score.....ever.....

And, now, so far(2 games in).....he is our top rated player on D.....

[gftChris]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but 2012 he went from UDFA to full time starter next to DQ in the 4-3. 2013 and the change from OLB to ILB he struggled, then last year he was decent splitting time with Kirksey.

Either way, he's solid now. Something else I've been thinking - Mingo to ILB?

[Osiris]

@gftchris said:

Maybe I'm misremembering, but 2012 he went from UDFA to full time starter next to DQ in the 4-3. 2013 and the change from OLB to ILB he struggled, then last year he was decent splitting time with Kirksey.

Either way, he's solid now. Something else I've been thinking - Mingo to ILB?

Might be a good idea, he's got the coverage skills apparently. Maybe he could be a flex guy put him at OLB or ILB based on the scheme where you need a coverage LB.

[gftChris]

He'd be a menace running free behind Shelton on blitzes...but does he have the smarts to take over from Dansby as 'QB of the D'? Or is Kirksey fully earmarked for that?

[Tour2ma]

@mudfly said:

PFF gave AB 3 sacks yesterday.....nice start!

And that was out of??? Likely one of the morphilicious 2-4 or 5 looks. Seems like we don't spend enough time in our base D to worry about its label... especially since it doesn't even look like a 3-4 half of the time. Even saw some unbalanced 4-3 looks yesterday... shifted into a couple IIRC.

Cleve, I was so with you in past years, but can't get worked up about it anymore... sorry...

@clevfan4life said:

I see no reason why Robertson and Kirksey are mutually exclusive on this team.

And both were OLBs in past lives. I still do not see why they don't get a shot outside now. Undersized to take on the run? A bit, but their quicks might more than compensate.

@gftchris said:

Maybe I'm misremembering, but 2012 he went from UDFA to full time starter next to DQ in the 4-3. 2013 and the change from OLB to ILB he struggled, then last year he was decent splitting time with Kirksey.

Either way, he's solid now. Something else I've been thinking - Mingo to ILB?

Kinda remembering the same plus Fort came in 2013 and bumped Robertson inside... maybe???

Mingo at ILB? Scares me vs. the run... not seeing the read/reaction outside, so how could he process the middle?

[Clevfan4life]

well here's my thing about the 4-3 with "our" current personnel. Mingo as an ILB in a 3-4? Not likely, but Mingo as a 4-3 OLB'er and we have something special imo. I was thinking of putting there before I saw what Denver did with Von Miller when they went back to the 4-3. Not sure what they're running this year, but the past year or so they had 4 downlineman with Miller roaming around the LOS...maybe blitz, maybe drop back....it's hell for an offensive line that is looking at 4 down lineman to have to also keep track of one of the elite pass rushers in the NFL. Mingo is never going to shine having to put his hand down, or even stand up rush, against tackles that are waiting for him. Offensive schemes are just too good now they know how to nerf a pure edge guy.

That's why I like 4 down beasts that occupy the OL, and also take the shortest edge to the QB. This limits his ability to step up, so if he gets flushed he has to flush up and out.....possibly right into the waiting arms of the 5th rusher in the form of a blitzing LB'er, CB or Safety. What those bigger DE"s on the end also can do is set the edge and push their guy inward so that they can still disrupt the bounce but also are pinching the off guard lanes that have been burning us for awhile. With our current edges, if they guess to the inside they have to completely disengage and dive backwards a little...which a good RB will read and bounce right off that. That's what I thought I saw happen on a couple big running plays yesterday.

No defense is perfect, there's always going to be weaknesses. I just see Krugers most productive year as having been at Blt where they used him strictly as a DE in their 4-3 packages. He's just going nowhere as 3-4 OLB'er. Remember our offensive lineman talking about what a load he was to block? Bet no o line talks like that about him now...if they did Petting wouldn't be standing him and moving him around trying to spring him into the backfield. We put 15 lbs of muscle back on him he starts to explode like a proper DE and probably gets his power edge rush back. If for matchups sake we wanna run the 3-4 for a game than we have the personnel for that too. I just want this bullshit to stop with 4 DL and Kruger standing up as the 5th guy. What in the all fuck is the point of that? That's not his game. Let Mingo do that. Your'e just tiring Kruger out by running him all over the place.

[Mudfly]

@tour2ma said:

And that was out of??? Likely one of the morphilicious 2-4 or 5 looks. Seems like we don't spend enough time in our base D to worry about its label... especially since it doesn't even look like a 3-4 half of the time. Even saw some unbalanced 4-3 looks yesterday... shifted into a couple IIRC.

Kinda remembering the same plus Fort came in 2013 and bumped Robertson inside... maybe???

Not sure how he got em until I go back and rewatch....

On the 4-3 3-4 thing...if you remember at the end of last season, I tracked that and showed we used a 5-2 dime like package "most" of the time.....and had plenty of 3 man and 4 man line sets....so, Id say there is no "base set"....and if there is, its a 5-2 that looks a lot like a dime to me......

And you remember correctly(better than I did)....Robertson played Will his first season....and then moved inside for '13

[Clevfan4life]

@mudfly said:

Not sure how he got em until I go back and rewatch....

On the 4-3 3-4 thing...if you remember at the end of last season, I tracked that and showed we used a 5-2 dime like package "most" of the time.....and had plenty of 3 man and 4 man line sets....so, Id say there is no "base set"....and if there is, its a 5-2 that looks a lot like a dime to me......

And you remember correctly(better than I did)....Robertson played Will his first season....and then moved inside for '13

yeah those 5 man fronts are junk though cause they're incorporating mostly 3-4 personnel. I want both Bryants in the game consistently. Des you can move from DL to DE in a 4-3 seamlessly. But like I said we have other guys like Kruger and Solomon that can also play DE in a 4-3. Solomon can also play OLB'er in the 3-4 if we choose to show that. I'm just trying to figure out how we shore up our edges cause right now they're shit. That's why I think base fronts are important. If we can get ahead of teams so they have to throw more, than we can start showing some more exotic looks to free up guys to the QB. But I think we have to start coming out and running base 4-3 with the right personnel. And to me right now, that looks like the Bryants starting the game at DE with Kruger rotating in with them.

[Tour2ma]

@mudfly said:

Not sure how he got em until I go back and rewatch....

On the 4-3 3-4 thing...if you remember at the end of last season, I tracked that and showed we used a 5-2 dime like package "most" of the time.....and had plenty of 3 man and 4 man line sets....so, Id say there is no "base set"....and if there is, its a 5-2 that looks a lot like a dime to me......

And you remember correctly(better than I did)....Robertson played Will his first season....and then moved inside for '13

Now that you mention it... I remember you doing that...

I was referring to the look with two down in a 3-point and a mix of DBs and LBs standing around... with maybe 3 more up making a 5-2 look. Same thing?

Maybe a dime-nickle hybrid...

... let's call it a "dickle"...

... or not...

On my memory... obviously I had help from, Chris... but what I do distinctly remember is when they played Robertson in and Fort outside, I thought Horton(?) got it exactly backwards.

[Flugel]

@mudfly said:

Id debate that.....for sure....

He was not good in 2012 and led the team in missed tackles(and was the 3rd from last rated player on the team)....and in 2013 he was just terrible(lowest rated player on the team)....2014 was his first year with a positive score.....ever.....

And, now, so far(2 games in).....he is our top rated player on D.....

Me too Mud! I thought last year he played the best football I've seen from him. His first step instinct was way better than I had seen it whether we're talking getting to the right place at the right time in coverage or vrs the point of attack. If I had to pick a most improved Defensive Player on this team in 2014 - it was Craig Robertson. Looks like he's picking up right where he left off in 2014 in our first 2 games. The LBer I thought played his very best football in Jauron's 4-3 was D'Qwell Jackson in terms of where he made most of his tackles vrs the point of attack.

Aside from how good Armonty looked bouncing back from a knee injury, I thought John Hughes played a pretty nice game inside yesterday as well as Randy Starks and Meder (loved his sack). Shelton was a beast. When they were collapsing the pocket into Mariota - that helped run Mariota right into the guys coming from the outside whether it was a DB like K'Wuan Williams blitzing or Armonty off the edge. Fun to watch!

[Clevfan4life]

Bottom line is the Browns have to figure out a way to basically start Armonty. Like I said previously he's kind of wasted as a 5 tech 3-4 DE...can still do it but I want to see him against a tackles outside shoulder all day. Well not all day cause I want a good rotation in there but you guys get what i'm saying. I'm open to discussion on who the other edge should be, but I think there's no question that Armonty is our best pass outside pass rusher.