Jonathan Paul Manziel
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Sit him. McCown was the starter until injury, only right he be given his chance to show how he'd do without the concussion - which is quite decent.
Johnny still has plenty of time for learning and growth. Yesterday should only add fuel to that fire. IF he truly enjoys winning more than anything, being
named the backup will drive him that much more to succeed.
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Man, when Tour's leaning more towards starting Johnny than I am I know I've become too hard on the kid. Certainly, even if Josh DOES get the nod, today gave the staff the comfort to cut Josh's leash by about 80%. Prior to these last two games I don't think they would have benched Josh until he strung together about 3 pretty bad games in a row. Basically the same as Hoyer. Now, 2 bad quarters and he's probably out (that's IF he even starts).
Some say that only leads to bad outcomes. Usually I agree, but our situation is different because Josh knows his role and doesn't have huge ambitions and Johnny is also completely trusting of the staff's decisions one way or the other (at least I think/hope so). The attitude improvement in our top two QBs from 2014 to 2015 is jaw-dropping.
Man, when Tour's leaning more towards starting Johnny than I am I know I've become too hard on the kid.
lol... How's it feel to be a "hater"?
And on your clock training exercise... two words... Adrian Petersen...
Pettines dilemma is do you go with him and see if he's the guy and risk a back slide?.....or do you go with your veteran starter, knowing Johnny will get another chance somewhere down the line?.....
Im taking the same road as Tour on this one......meaning I dont give Johnny the job....But I do give him one more game......keep Josh in the garage for a little extra healing....hook the short leash on Johnny and take him for another walk......
Depends on the size of the backslide risk doesn't it? And by now... with the TN game graded and the OAK scouting reports in... the staff likely has a pretty good feel of its size.
If the size is judged small enough then the "extra healing" rationale is convenient. And while no one will swallow it whole, it's credible enough to buy JM another week, yet keep the back door open for a Week 4 Josh start, if need be.
If the size is too great, then "JM did well and we would have no hesitation turning to him again, but McCown was our Game 1 starter and is healthy enough to return to that role... the role he earned in camp".
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
So what is the concensus around here? Start him or Sit him. I'm for starting him from here on in....good, bad, or indifferent.
So what is the concensus around here? Start him or Sit him. I'm for starting him from here on in....good, bad, or indifferent.
I'm a little conflicted on this one. The biggest problem us Browns fans have is we are so quick to start a rookie QB instead of just sitting back and letting him learn. I know we had a great win yesterday, but we really need Josh to start and let Johnny sit back and learn. For the most part, I'm still not sure he is will take us to the promise land. But I still say let Josh start and have Johnny learn like the good teams do. If he's our guy, perhaps later he can come in and take us perhaps to the playoffs. Otherwise, we might have to draft a guy for the future. And who knows, perhaps we can get to the playoffs with Josh. Of course, we still know he's not our future.
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Goat ropers? Really? I never met any when I was there. Now sheep fuckers.
.......................that's a different story altogether. 
I thought more like steer fuckers.
I thought more like steer fuckers.
Goat-fuckers...
They put the goat's rear legs in their cowboy boots...
... think it's what is meant by "animal husbandry".
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I think...that the Tenn. defense made changes to dial up the pressure on Johnny,
They made adjustments, and JM was looking at new ways to mess with the
qb.
McCown has seen it all - knows how to counter it.
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And here he is: http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/09/merril_hoge_knot_down_on_johnn.html
LMAO... I simply cannot compete with that kind of pro-caliber flip-flopping...
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I think...that the Tenn. defense made changes to dial up the pressure on Johnny,
They made adjustments, and JM was looking at new ways to mess with the
qb.
McCown has seen it all - knows how to counter it.
I think...that the Tenn. defense made changes to dial up the pressure on Johnny,
They made adjustments, and JM was looking at new ways to mess with the
qb.
McCown has seen it all - knows how to counter it.
Great point. I lean toward McCown for this reason as well, but I still think the Browns will start Manziel. Look at it from this perspective - if Josh starts and loses, Pettine will get a ton of criticism. Much more than if Manziel loses.
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I thought more like steer fuckers.
Goat-fuckers...
They put the goat's rear legs in their cowboy boots...
... think it's what is meant by "animal husbandry".
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I'll just assume coach Pettine checks this board and heard not only mine, but the prayers of Tour as well.
I didn't see a single pistol set.
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Different opponent, different game plan. You did notice they didn't just play the Jets again,
this week, right, Tiam?
If the pistol sets didn't work, maybe the Browns just weren't ready to play, like the offense
wasn't ready for certain things and matchups ...
It has worked well in the past - like when the Browns played the steelers last year...
"The Browns had great success picking up the pace on offense, and they also operated well out of βPistolβ sets,"Maybe you should stop reaching for patting yourself on your back so much. You could get arthritis. -
I never fled. Call me a fanboy all you want. Plays like the one he made yesterday to seal the game are memorable - they last. Picture Johnny making 5 to 10 plays like that every game and you come close to figuring out why Aggies love Johnny.
But it's not just that. He's a good kid. Let me repeat that. HE'S A GOOD KID. Find a coach or teammate from his past that doesn't like him and it will be the first I've heard of. He's a kid you should feel good about rooting for. He's been told all his life he wasn't good enough, big enough, but he has always stood up and fought against that.
People hate Johnny Football but they don't even know him. Did he let the hype get to him? Did he flaunt his incredible success in all the faces of the people who said he wasn't big enough/good enough? Yes. Has he been young and stupid? Yes.
We all have. God knows what we all would do with that kind of fame at 19 years old.
But he is not some brash, young punk like some think. He simply played the game of college football in a way that made people take notice. As the breathtaking plays mounted, so did the media, the women, the celebrity, the parties. He probably lost himself somewhat in all that craziness. And he could have lost everything, but thankfully he made some good decisions, and is on a good path now.
The turnaround he has made these last 10 months make me more happy for Johnny Manziel the person than Johnny Manziel Texas Aggie/ Cleveland Brown quarterback.
Yesterday was awesome, but Johnny still has an uphill battle in front of him - in life and in football. I'm glad that Johnny won some goodwill from Browns fans, and I hope there are lots more Browns wins to come.
I don't mind saying I love the kid and I will continue to root for him on and off the field.
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I think...that the Tenn. defense made changes to dial up the pressure on Johnny,
They made adjustments, and JM was looking at new ways to mess with the
qb.
McCown has seen it all - knows how to counter it.
I think...that the Tenn. defense made changes to dial up the pressure on Johnny,
They made adjustments, and JM was looking at new ways to mess with the
qb.
McCown has seen it all - knows how to counter it.
No offense bro, but if he has seen it all and knows how to counter it, how come he has been traded so much?
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Man, when Tour's leaning more towards starting Johnny than I am I know I've become too hard on the kid.
lol... How's it feel to be a "hater"?
And on your clock training exercise... two words... Adrian Petersen...
Pettines dilemma is do you go with him and see if he's the guy and risk a back slide?.....or do you go with your veteran starter, knowing Johnny will get another chance somewhere down the line?.....
Im taking the same road as Tour on this one......meaning I dont give Johnny the job....But I do give him one more game......keep Josh in the garage for a little extra healing....hook the short leash on Johnny and take him for another walk......
Depends on the size of the backslide risk doesn't it? And by now... with the TN game graded and the OAK scouting reports in... the staff likely has a pretty good feel of its size.
If the size is judged small enough then the "extra healing" rationale is convenient. And while no one will swallow it whole, it's credible enough to buy JM another week, yet keep the back door open for a Week 4 Josh start, if need be.
If the size is too great, then "JM did well and we would have no hesitation turning to him again, but McCown was our Game 1 starter and is healthy enough to return to that role... the role he earned in camp".
. with the TN game graded and the OAK scouting reports in... the staff likely has a pretty good feel of its size.
Of course....leaving the whole QB thing out of it and looking only at strategy....
1) I would wait as long as possible to announce who the starter is...let Oakland prepare for both....
2) There is now 2 Johnny games on tape and only a few drives of Josh on tape....sooo.....maybe Josh would have the upper hand there....?
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I didn't want him but once we drafted him I wanted him to start. Why prolong his progress? I thought the front office did a rotten job last year destroying his confidence and telling him right off the bat he was a backup. The whole way everything was handled was bush league.
Now make this kid your franchise and commit now!
Stop the merry go round of recycled journeymen and let this kid develop into a superstar. Carr, Bridgewater, Winston, Mariota all took the reigns for better or worse. Why is Cleveland any different? Play the guy you drafted in the first round!
I am so sick of the over thinking by our coaches! Or is it Farmer? Don't think so much. Football isn't rocket science!
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Different opponent, different game plan. You did notice they didn't just play the Jets again,
this week, right, Tiam?
If the pistol sets didn't work, maybe the Browns just weren't ready to play, like the offense
wasn't ready for certain things and matchups ...
It has worked well in the past - like when the Browns played the steelers last year...
"The Browns had great success picking up the pace on offense, and they also operated well out of βPistolβ sets,"Maybe you should stop reaching for patting yourself on your back so much. You could get arthritis.It has worked well in the past - like when the Browns played the steelers last year...
Hoyer ran the pistol last year?
*looks at 2014 game notes*
Son of a gun... he did... 13 times or so in 2014 Week 1... and many in second half as we came storming back from a 24 point halftime deficit.
Week 6 rematch? I see one "PSTL".
Not a lot worked 2015 week 1, cal, so agree with your point that it was not a good basis for evaluating the 2015 "Flipstol", but I don't think tia and I were doing that... at least I know I wasn't. We only used it 4 times in week 1 and all were runs for -2, 0, +8, +1. The +8 was the last play before the half.
Similarly rolling up some 2014 yards and points after trailing big and early does not strike me as a valid basis for touting it's success.
I simply don't like the formation. It seems to me to be a compromise.
I think it hurts both the run and play action compared to going under center.
I think it delays the post-snap read compared to the ShotGun.
On the Pistol's side:
Post snap reads can faster than under center and the drop can be completed faster than starting under center.
It offers a stronger run threat than the gun.
To me it's a matter of what you value more and what areas your QB needs the most help.
I value Play Action. I don't see a QB that needs the limited crutch it offers.
Just my opinion...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
OK. I've kinda been a prick to the Texas boys, because I have been thinking, "can we wait until he wins a football game?"
Mission accomplished. Yesterday was fun, I enjoyed being a Browns fan.
Zombo
Zombo said:
Mission accomplished. Yesterday was fun, I enjoyed being a Browns fan.
Zombo
"Enjoyed", The Great Zomboni doesnt even feel a little shamed slutting it up. Theres no remorse there, I respect it.Damn, Zombo... giving it up on the first date like that is gonna get you labelled "EZ".... but then there was alcohol involved....
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It has worked well in the past - like when the Browns played the steelers last year...
Hoyer ran the pistol last year?
*looks at 2014 game notes*
Son of a gun... he did... 13 times or so in 2014 Week 1... and many in second half as we came storming back from a 24 point halftime deficit.
Week 6 rematch? I see one "PSTL".
Not a lot worked 2015 week 1, cal, so agree with your point that it was not a good basis for evaluating the 2015 "Flipstol", but I don't think tia and I were doing that... at least I know I wasn't. We only used it 4 times in week 1 and all were runs for -2, 0, +8, +1. The +8 was the last play before the half.
Similarly rolling up some 2014 yards and points after trailing big and early does not strike me as a valid basis for touting it's success.
I simply don't like the formation. It seems to me to be a compromise.
I think it hurts both the run and play action compared to going under center.
I think it delays the post-snap read compared to the ShotGun.
On the Pistol's side:
Post snap reads can faster than under center and the drop can be completed faster than starting under center.
It offers a stronger run threat than the gun.
To me it's a matter of what you value more and what areas your QB needs the most help.
I value Play Action. I don't see a QB that needs the limited crutch it offers.
Just my opinion...
Hoyer ran the pistol last year?
*looks at 2014 game notes*
Son of a gun... he did... 13 times or so in 2014 Week 1... and many in second half as we came storming back from a 24 point halftime deficit.
Week 6 rematch? I see one "PSTL".
Not a lot worked 2015 week 1, cal, so agree with your point that it was not a good basis for evaluating the 2015 "Flipstol", but I don't think tia and I were doing that... at least I know I wasn't. We only used it 4 times in week 1 and all were runs for -2, 0, +8, +1. The +8 was the last play before the half.
Similarly rolling up some 2014 yards and points after trailing big and early does not strike me as a valid basis for touting it's success.
I simply don't like the formation. It seems to me to be a compromise.
I think it hurts both the run and play action compared to going under center.
I think it delays the post-snap read compared to the ShotGun.
On the Pistol's side:
Post snap reads can faster than under center and the drop can be completed faster than starting under center.
It offers a stronger run threat than the gun.
To me it's a matter of what you value more and what areas your QB needs the most help.
I value Play Action. I don't see a QB that needs the limited crutch it offers.
Just my opinion...
The Pistol is good for nothing but getting your QB killed.
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The two fumbles seemed nearly identical, too long in the pocket without the internal clock saying, "Get ready to eat one." I'll watch the game again later today and see if that is accurate, but that was my "live" take on it. So the question is do the Browns have a "fumble play" for the OL when they get beat to the QB?
The two fumbles seemed nearly identical, too long in the pocket without the internal clock saying, "Get ready to eat one." I'll watch the game again later today and see if that is accurate, but that was my "live" take on it. So the question is do the Browns have a "fumble play" for the OL when they get beat to the QB?
Those fumbles can only be corrected by seeing live game action. When you go through all of last year, plus this offseason without being hit you don't realize how important ball security actually is. It takes a few live hits to get the "internal clock" and understand when to tuck the ball and take the sack. In practice and TC, he didn't have to worry about that b/c he knew he wasn't actually going to get hit...
Other than those 2 fumbles, he did everything we want from him. I think he'll still be inconsistent and make some poor decisions, but it appears the ceiling is MUCH higher than if we play McCown. With McCown we're hoping for 8-8. With Manziel we're hoping for 10-6, but could easily end up 4-12...
It's risk vs. reward. The reward of playing Manziel from this point forward, IMHO, outweighs the risk, while on-the-other-hand, playing the lesser risk McCown seems like less chance of reward...
Manziel is currently our biggest playmaker, sans Benjamin, and I just don't see how we can keep him on the bench. He is also a ruthless competitor and seems to have that "cutthroat" mentality where he is able to "will" his team to victory.
I'm not saying he's the next great thing, but I just have a feeling this is the best time to get him out there and let him continue to adjust to the NFL game. He looks ready to make plays... not without the growing pains that you see with young QBs... but I think he could have a good season if Flip puts him in the right position to succeed.
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. with the TN game graded and the OAK scouting reports in... the staff likely has a pretty good feel of its size.
Of course....leaving the whole QB thing out of it and looking only at strategy....
1) I would wait as long as possible to announce who the starter is...let Oakland prepare for both....
2) There is now 2 Johnny games on tape and only a few drives of Josh on tape....sooo.....maybe Josh would have the upper hand there....?
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