McCown was the wrong choice
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McCown looked a QB just cleared for practice mid week after two weeks off behind a line that was getting mauled across the board. That he actually got better the 2nd half should be commended in a game that looked lost with 10 min. to go. Not ready to give up on him yet.
Sure... some rust visible in spots. Some momentum in 2nd half, but I think the Raiders' D softened some to help that... just as ours did last week vs. Titans. But very late they seemed to have been able to turn it back on.
I'll add that I saw a lot more 3-4 out of them this week than I did in their game vs. BLT.
Tour I agree if your goal is to push the envelope and go 7-9 or 6-10 because that is the ceiling for this team. I think at some point you have to quantify what you have in Manziel then move on. Mccown can start next year with a rookie on the roster or god forbid backup for another journeyman cashing in like a Fitzpatrick.
May well be the ceiling... certainly if I extrapolate on 1-2, then I end up 6-10 at best... but I can't do that... or at least I can't and claim it's valid.
Beyond that I think we're disagreeing primarily on how many games are needed to evaluate a QB. For me 13 is high... and honestly... trying to do that the way we looked today is problematic.
Sure... some rust visible in spots. Some momentum in 2nd half, but I think the Raiders' D softened some to help that... just as ours did last week vs. Titans. But very late they seemed to have been able to turn it back on.
I'll add that I saw a lot more 3-4 out of them this week than I did in their game vs. BLT.
May well be the ceiling... certainly if I extrapolate on 1-2, then I end up 6-10 at best... but I can't do that... or at least I can't and claim it's valid.
Beyond that I think we're disagreeing primarily on how many games are needed to evaluate a QB. For me 13 is high... and honestly... trying to do that the way we looked today is problematic.
Agree on that but Manziel's stats through 7 games in the NFL are horrible.
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Faded said:
Pettine is a conservative, defensive-minded coach. His idea of a perfect game would be a 40+ run, eight possession game that you win 6-3. Manziel is the antithesis of this. He is always going to be some amalgam of brilliance and dumbassery. At this point in his career, I expect the dumbassery will outweigh the brilliance by at least a little. Over time, the hope is that balance shifts the other way, and now you have a fully serviceable and electric playmaker that means you are never out of the game. We'll see.
But, even then, I think Pettine would struggle with Manziel, and will never be comfortable with the gunslinger approach. I'm not sure Manziel can ever be the QB Pettine really wants. The debacle from last year may have left some scars, as well. I think Pettine is no idiot, and Manziel is no washout (though it's early to tell), but I think the pairing may be problematic.
It feels like I wrote this... only it's better... and half as long...
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Faded said:
Pettine is a conservative, defensive-minded coach. His idea of a perfect game would be a 40+ run, eight possession game that you win 6-3. Manziel is the antithesis of this. He is always going to be some amalgam of brilliance and dumbassery. At this point in his career, I expect the dumbassery will outweigh the brilliance by at least a little. Over time, the hope is that balance shifts the other way, and now you have a fully serviceable and electric playmaker that means you are never out of the game. We'll see.
But, even then, I think Pettine would struggle with Manziel, and will never be comfortable with the gunslinger approach. I'm not sure Manziel can ever be the QB Pettine really wants. The debacle from last year may have left some scars, as well. I think Pettine is no idiot, and Manziel is no washout (though it's early to tell), but I think the pairing may be problematic.
It feels like I wrote this... only it's better... and half as long...
It's like I wrote this... only it's better... and half as long...
So Pettine wouldn't want Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Palmer? or is he afraid of the guy who completes 53% of his passes and has fumbled 5 times in 7 games?
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Sure... some rust visible in spots. Some momentum in 2nd half, but I think the Raiders' D softened some to help that... just as ours did last week vs. Titans. But very late they seemed to have been able to turn it back on.
I'll add that I saw a lot more 3-4 out of them this week than I did in their game vs. BLT.
May well be the ceiling... certainly if I extrapolate on 1-2, then I end up 6-10 at best... but I can't do that... or at least I can't and claim it's valid.
Beyond that I think we're disagreeing primarily on how many games are needed to evaluate a QB. For me 13 is high... and honestly... trying to do that the way we looked today is problematic.
Agree on that but Manziel's stats through 7 games in the NFL are horrible.
Agree on that but Manziel's stats through 7 games in the NFL are horrible.
Maybe but not nearly as bad as Pettine career at trying to stop the run
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Agree on that but Manziel's stats through 7 games in the NFL are horrible.
Maybe but not nearly as bad as Pettine career at trying to stop the run
Maybe but not nearly as bad as Pettine career at trying to stop the run
I thought that was Danny Shelton's job?
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Faded said:
If they do play Manziel, though, I hope they let him throw on first or second down every once in while.
I'll continue to be a broken record, Johnny Manziel's stats in 7 games are fucking terrible
I'll continue to be a broken record, Johnny Manziel's stats in 7 games are fucking terrible
I think you have to set aside starts prior to this year... 2014 was a boat anchor.
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So Pettine wouldn't want Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Palmer? or is he afraid of the guy who completes 53% of his passes and has fumbled 5 times in 7 games?
The only one of those four I would even consider put in the gunslinger category would be Brees... and I'd have to think hard on him.
QBs can be both conservative game managers and throw a lot of passes. Brady and Rogers are definitely in that intersection IMO...
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Maybe but not nearly as bad as Pettine career at trying to stop the run
I thought that was Danny Shelton's job?
I thought that was Danny Shelton's job?
Pettine could have Reggie White, Randy White, Merlin Olsen, Bruce Smith, Jack Ham, Jack Lambert and Lawrence Taylor as his front seven and still couldn't stop the run.
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I'll continue to be a broken record, Johnny Manziel's stats in 7 games are fucking terrible
I think you have to set aside starts prior to this year... 2014 was a boat anchor.
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So Pettine wouldn't want Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Palmer? or is he afraid of the guy who completes 53% of his passes and has fumbled 5 times in 7 games?
The only one of those four I would even consider put in the gunslinger category would be Brees... and I'd have to think hard on him.
QBs can be both conservative game managers and throw a lot of passes. Brady and Rogers are definitely in that intersection IMO...
The only one of those four I would even consider put in the gunslinger category would be Brees... and I'd have to think hard on him.
QBs can be both conservative game managers and throw a lot of passes. Brady and Rogers are definitely in that intersection IMO...
Brady has 9 double digit INT years and Rodgers just happens to be the best pure passer in the NFL but fore the sake of argument
I'd say Pettine would be fine with Andrew Luck over Josh Mccown -
It's not that McCown lost the job. He didn't. It's that this team has now shown over 3 games they're not nearly as good as we thought they were so playing for this year is now pointless.
We thought you just airdrop McCown behind an elite OL, a great running game, and an elite defense, and we had a chance to make the playoffs. I still believe that's true re: McCown. Problem is it doesn't appear we have any of those 3 things.
It's not that McCown lost the job. He didn't. It's that this team has now shown over 3 games they're not nearly as good as we thought they were so playing for this year is now pointless.
We thought you just airdrop McCown behind an elite OL, a great running game, and an elite defense, and we had a chance to make the playoffs. I still believe that's true re: McCown. Problem is it doesn't appear we have any of those 3 things.
Could not agree more.
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The only one of those four I would even consider put in the gunslinger category would be Brees... and I'd have to think hard on him.
QBs can be both conservative game managers and throw a lot of passes. Brady and Rogers are definitely in that intersection IMO...
Brady has 9 double digit INT years and Rodgers just happens to be the best pure passer in the NFL but fore the sake of argument
I'd say Pettine would be fine with Andrew Luck over Josh MccownBrady has 9 double digit INT years and Rodgers just happens to be the best pure passer in the NFL but fore the sake of argument
I'd say Pettine would be fine with Andrew Luck over Josh MccownBut only 3 of his last 6 full seasons... Tom Terrific strung 6 together early in his first 6 full-time years...
Luck is still learning and is in no position to game manage... Can't think of a QB who has more on him than Andrew does in Indy... but yeah, I think he'd get a look with us.
Ideally you want a QB who can be what you need based upon how a given Sunday unfolds... a QB that knows without being told to dial up or down his aggression-meter. Aaron and Tom do it. Wilson in SEA does as will although the scale on his dial is not as wide. I think Andrew would love to be able to dial it down some weeks.
QBs like McCown and Hoyer don't have a dial... you have to match their "speed". Fitz with the Jets is the same way.
Favre only dialed it down one year... and I think it killed him to not be him. Coincidentally it was the only year he won a SB. By and large the same for P. Manning, although circumstances dictated more aggression more of the time.
JM shows signs of being able to dial it, but there's no doubt it goes against his nature... and that puts him in conflict with Pet as Faded pointed out.
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Brady has 9 double digit INT years and Rodgers just happens to be the best pure passer in the NFL but fore the sake of argument
I'd say Pettine would be fine with Andrew Luck over Josh MccownBut only 3 of his last 6 full seasons... Tom Terrific strung 6 together early in his first 6 full-time years...
Luck is still learning and is in no position to game manage... Can't think of a QB who has more on him than Andrew does in Indy... but yeah, I think he'd get a look with us.
Ideally you want a QB who can be what you need based upon how a given Sunday unfolds... a QB that knows without being told to dial up or down his aggression-meter. Aaron and Tom do it. Wilson in SEA does as will although the scale on his dial is not as wide. I think Andrew would love to be able to dial it down some weeks.
QBs like McCown and Hoyer don't have a dial... you have to match their "speed". Fitz with the Jets is the same way.
Favre only dialed it down one year... and I think it killed him to not be him. Coincidentally it was the only year he won a SB. By and large the same for P. Manning, although circumstances dictated more aggression more of the time.
JM shows signs of being able to dial it, but there's no doubt it goes against his nature... and that puts him in conflict with Pet as Faded pointed out.
But only 3 of his last 6 full seasons... Tom Terrific strung 6 together early in his first 6 full-time years...
Luck is still learning and is in no position to game manage... Can't think of a QB who has more on him than Andrew does in Indy... but yeah, I think he'd get a look with us.
Ideally you want a QB who can be what you need based upon how a given Sunday unfolds... a QB that knows without being told to dial up or down his aggression-meter. Aaron and Tom do it. Wilson in SEA does as will although the scale on his dial is not as wide. I think Andrew would love to be able to dial it down some weeks.
QBs like McCown and Hoyer don't have a dial... you have to match their "speed". Fitz with the Jets is the same way.
Favre only dialed it down one year... and I think it killed him to not be him. Coincidentally it was the only year he won a SB. By and large the same for P. Manning, although circumstances dictated more aggression more of the time.
JM shows signs of being able to dial it, but there's no doubt it goes against his nature... and that puts him in conflict with Pet as Faded pointed out.
I guess I don't see the great upside of Manziel. I don't see the physical attributes or NFL intangibles that would make him a good NFL QB.
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the coach should NEVER try to make thE QB the way HE wants him to play. the coach SHOULD mold the team around the way the QB plays. JM looked good the first game. JM DID NOT lose the first game. the o-line did that. JM looked GOOD the next game AND got the win. so why did they not play him today??? I am and always will be a browns fan but...there is something funny going on with the endless years of the SAME STUPID THINGS BEING DONE OVER AND OVER. JM is the FIRST QB we have had in a long time that looks like he just MIGHT be the one. but...the browns WILL fuck him up somehow! they always do.
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Alright guys. I'll say it. Just because I'm very knowledgeable about football. We shouldn't have passed on Russell Wilson. There. I said it
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Faded said:
Every post is the same: Manziel doesn't look like an NFL QB, and, therefore, he cannot succeed.
You're not alone. Half the coaches in the NFL would make the same assessment without two minutes thought. It's one of the reasons the league has gotten so boring to watch.
Maybe the Browns will get lucky and Ryan Fitzpatrick will be available next year...
It's not what he looks like, it's how he plays. Russell Wilson doesn't look like the prototypical NFL QB.
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I didn't want to start a new thread for this, but check out Pet's demeanor in his post game presser. Makes me feel better knowing how sick he is (what do they say about misery?) I liked his reaction to the question about us giving up a 300yd passer, 100yd receiver and 100yd rusher today;
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I didn't want to start a new thread for this, but check out Pet's demeanor in his post game presser. Makes me feel better knowing how sick he is (what do they say about misery?) I liked his reaction to the question about us giving up a 300yd passer, 100yd receiver and 100yd rusher today;
I didn't want to start a new thread for this, but check out Pet's demeanor in his post game presser. Makes me feel better knowing how sick he is (what do they say about misery?) I liked his reaction to the question about us giving up a 300yd passer, 100yd receiver and 100yd rusher today;
He comes through well on press conferences, not sure how many wins that translates to, don't get me wrong I like Pettine. The common theme from the Mangini, Shurmur, Chudzinski and Pettine administrations is a complete and utter lack of talent and a willingness of the fans to overlook that fact and blame the coach. At no point in the last 5-7 years have we been a coach away from being a contender.
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I'll just state my opinion once, and I'll do it here. The QB position is an area of concern, but it isn't even in the top 3 areas of concern for me. Our offensive line play is awful. Our game day readiness is pathetic. Our Defense is as far from being a bully as one can get. Our offensive play calling is beyond predictable....... Shit, I can keep going on and on, but I don't want to.......... As for the QB position, I would start Johnny this week, no question about it.
We just aren't a good football team.... Period. Coaching and players alike. We look like the doormat of the NFL, so there is nowhere to go but up (please God, let us not fall any lower) and we might as well see if Johnny is our elusive franchise QB, or if he's just the next former Browns QB bust.
The organization should be embarrassed, I know I am.
This post is an A+ , very well saidI'll just state my opinion once, and I'll do it here. The QB position is an area of concern, but it isn't even in the top 3 areas of concern for me. Our offensive line play is awful. Our game day readiness is pathetic. Our Defense is as far from being a bully as one can get. Our offensive play calling is beyond predictable....... Shit, I can keep going on and on, but I don't want to.......... As for the QB position, I would start Johnny this week, no question about it.
We just aren't a good football team.... Period. Coaching and players alike. We look like the doormat of the NFL, so there is nowhere to go but up (please God, let us not fall any lower) and we might as well see if Johnny is our elusive franchise QB, or if he's just the next former Browns QB bust.
The organization should be embarrassed, I know I am.
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