Carson and Trump, Rising and Falling, 20% and 21%

VaporTrail

You're equating nuclear weaponry to AK-47s and RPG-7s or nuclear weaponry to funding for training. This conversation is going nowhere until you admit that nuclear secrets are going to be treated differently.

Westside Steve

@vaportrail said:
You're equating nuclear weaponry to AK-47s and RPG-7s or nuclear weaponry to funding for training. This conversation is going nowhere until you admit that nuclear secrets are going to be treated differently.

That's possible I guess. Or until you admit that Iran is not Switzerland.

WSS

calfoxwc

Vapor....

It's going nowwhere til you quit "not being a fan" of Israel, and

stop thinking that iran, with all it's aggression and maniacal

threats... would be any kind of a good thing. What the hell is up with that?

that implies that you are pro-Israel's enemies a tiny bit, maybe? or not....

And nukes compared to Ak-47's...

try a small dirty bomb. Or a lot of them proliferated around the countries

hostile to Israel. Iran doesn't have to develop and implement actual nukes.

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/12/16/danger-and-delay-on-dirty-bombs/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/preparing-for-nuclear-terrorism.html

They could just proliferate dirty radioactive material to terrorists. Like Hamas.

The middle east is closer and closer to going to war. and it isn't all that farfetched

that Russia and our U.S.A. are way too close to each other over there already.

btw, why in the bullbleep would anybody "not be a friend of Israel", and defend it's enemies?

VaporTrail

@westside-steve said:

That's possible I guess. Or until you admit that Iran is not Switzerland.

WSS

Let's compare them to Pakistan. Pakistan has nuclear weapons, and their relationship with the US is currently much more strained than that of Iran (they hid Osama bin Laden a few miles from their premier military academy). So where's all the outrage and fear over Pakistani nukes?

calfoxwc

You ever hear of Pakistan threatening the existence of Israel? Ever?

Any terrorist groups like hamas and hezbollah, etc... funded to

go destroy Israel?

Sure, Pakistan should not have them either. Look at the hostile atmosphere between

them and India. And, Pakistan IS divided, some in the Intelligence community

support terrorists by allowing them sanctuary in their country.

But Pakistan is a huge different deal. Pakistan is on the other side of Iran and Afghanistan.

There are now going to be Iranian troops officially in Syria.

Seriously. Want to change the subject to the Oman or Sudan while you're at it?

middle%2Beast%2Bregional%2Bmap%2B3-2011.

calfoxwc

now, look at that map, and consider Iran is directly sponsoring terrorist attacks

around the world:

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/uploads/Documents/testimony/LevittTestimony20120725.pdf

VaporTrail

@calfoxwc said:
You ever hear of Pakistan threatening the existence of Israel? Ever?

That's worse than hiding and protecting the mastermind of 9/11?

calfoxwc

And yes, Pakistani outlawed the terrorist support group

LeT and banned it's existence.

How much intel subgroups favor helping terrorists...

who knows.

But comparing that with Iran is ridiculous.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/18/pakistan-isi-mumbai-terror-attacks

calfoxwc

That's worse than hiding and protecting the mastermind of 9/11?

Vapor

**************************

yes, some in the intel community allowed him sanctuary.

But the Pakistani gov banned the terrorist support group LeT, etc etc etc.

That has nothing to do with comparing that to Iran's worldwide, government supported

terrorist activities, and the danger to Israel.

Again, you heard Pakistan say they were going to wipe Israel off the face of the earth?

we are not talking about Pakistan.

We are talking about IRAN. Look at the freakin map, look at the constant threats to annilate

the U.S. and Israel.

VaporTrail

We're gonna have to agree to disagree.

calfoxwc

well, that still leaves the question on the table...

WHY do you disagree ?

And why be "not a friend of Israel"...

and perhaps "be supportive of Iran" getting nukes?

I don't get it..got explanations?

Westside Steve

@vaportrail said:

Let's compare them to Pakistan. Pakistan has nuclear weapons, and their relationship with the US is currently much more strained than that of Iran (they hid Osama bin Laden a few miles from their premier military academy). So where's all the outrage and fear over Pakistani nukes?

Well for one thing I think we've overstated the importance of Osama bin Laden as we usually do in America. Pick some fucking figurehead and pretend it's all about him.

And for that matter if I could prevent it I wouldn't want Pakistan or North Korea to have nuclear weapons either.

WSS

VaporTrail

@calfoxwc said:

well, that still leaves the question on the table...

WHY do you disagree ?

And why be "not a friend of Israel"...

and perhaps "be supportive of Iran" getting nukes?

I don't get it..got explanations?

Our relationship with Israel is the reason Islamic extremists have painted a target on our backs. Rethinking that relationship is probably the single best thing we could do to improve national security.

@westside-steve said:

Well for one thing I think we've overstated the importance of Osama bin Laden as we usually do in America. Pick some fucking figurehead and pretend it's all about him.

Agree to disagree. The guy played a role in a huge number of attacks in the 90s and 2000s. The effects of the 9/11 attacks 14 years ago are still being felt today. The guy was extremely intelligent and changed our country for the worse - the constitution has been shit all over since 9/11 in the name of patriotism and stopping terrorists.

And for that matter if I could prevent it I wouldn't want Pakistan or North Korea to have nuclear weapons either.

It's not our job to police the world.

Westside Steve

I realized 911 was monumentally important. I'm not so sure his role is as crucial as we've been led to believe. Nor do I think his assassination is as big a triumph as we might wish to believe.

For example of all the crackpots that hate whoever the President of the United States is at a particular time assassinated him it would most likely not make their side any safer. Probably to the contrary.

WSS

Westside Steve

@vaportrail said:

It's not our job to police the world.

I disagree.

WSS

Clevfan4life

@calfoxwc said:

well, that still leaves the question on the table...

WHY do you disagree ?

And why be "not a friend of Israel"...

and perhaps "be supportive of Iran" getting nukes?

I don't get it..got explanations?

I could spend hours talking your ear off about why i'm not a "friend of Israel". I'm more ambivalent about Iran because I know that despite being run by the Ayatollahs, most Persians that get out of there are actually fairly progressive people. They're a country still haunted by certain domestic interventions by foreign entities that happened long ago and are as shameful and contemptible as anything we criticize the Russians for.

Clevfan4life

@westside-steve said:

I disagree.

WSS

Than you agree with the road to our ruin. And we weren't the world policeman all these years for the benefit of the world, we did some bad shit for our own gain and it's progressively gotten us a bad name. Slapping little countries against the wall that didn't open up their national resources to us under "our" terms was only gonna fly for so long.

calfoxwc

Our relationship with Israel is the reason Islamic extremists have painted a target on our backs. Rethinking that relationship is probably the single best thing we could do to improve national security. Vapor

********************************************************

So, if you were walking down a street at night, with your younger cousin, and a couple of thugs

walk up, and say "we're going to beat this young kid up, so you had better leave and do what's

best for you"...

You're fine with that? A friend asks you to go with him to pick up his wife at the amtrak station in a bad

part of town.... at a deserted 1:30 in the morning... and you don't go because that is what is best for you?

Staying out of WWI and WWII was best for us? Except eventually, the problems exploded into

global ones, and we finally had to enter the war, and the cost was horrifically high because we waited

so long?

What you mean is, turning out backs on Israel would be EASIER, at least until millions of Israelis'

are destroyed. Again.

You are so wrong about it.

Clevfan4life

Well to your analogy Cal, if that younger cousin stole something from them or killed their dog blah blah blah....yeah you leave him to his own karma. I'm not there yet where i'm like cut Israel complexly lose. But it's getting there. Why? Cause they keep building settlements. They go to the U.N and talk all this bullshit and act like persecuted jews and say oh look at this settlement we just tore down....while it's DOCUMENTED that they quietly bulldoze more Palestinian homes a couple miles down the road to build 5 more settlements. They tear down one settlement and say to the world look at what gracious Jews we are, then build more down the road. They keep that up i'm all for cutting them loose. We can't abide that behavior.

OldBrownsFan

@calfoxwc said:

Our relationship with Israel is the reason Islamic extremists have painted a target on our backs. Rethinking that relationship is probably the single best thing we could do to improve national security. Vapor

********************************************************

So, if you were walking down a street at night, with your younger cousin, and a couple of thugs

walk up, and say "we're going to beat this young kid up, so you had better leave and do what's

best for you"...

You're fine with that? A friend asks you to go with him to pick up his wife at the amtrak station in a bad

part of town.... at a deserted 1:30 in the morning... and you don't go because that is what is best for you?

Staying out of WWI and WWII was best for us? Except eventually, the problems exploded into

global ones, and we finally had to enter the war, and the cost was horrifically high because we waited

so long?

What you mean is, turning out backs on Israel would be EASIER, at least until millions of Israelis'

are destroyed. Again.

You are so wrong about it.

I'm afraid that kind of thought is going to only become stronger in the United States. The bible states there will come a time when all the nations turn against Israel. If language means anything that unfortunately would include the United States.