Anonymous Players Complain to SI Reporter about Defensive Scheme
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I guess my main question is, where did this whole defensive scheme idea come from? Some team somewhere must've had success with it, right?
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Maybe, but they didn't just put in this system overnight and
teach it in six weeks.
Teams generally have systems installed for years.
It's stupid to throw that much complication at the Browns defense
and expect them to be successful right out of the gate.
If it's Pettine's defense he got from wherever, it hasn't been successful where he's been.
You'd think he would make changes.
And, btw, he MUST stop all the constant micromanaging of the defense with substitutions.
It's signalling to the offense what they do with different packages.
My solution - bring Bill Parcells in, and either install him as defensive coordinator and make
Oneil his assistant, or at least make Bill Parcells a major advisor to help Oneil grow into a
SMART defensive coordinator.
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Same with the offense like even the comms said last week as soon as you put Dray on the field you know it's going to be a run play
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This defensive coaching staff is definitely not very good. However...one of the most frustrating things I see every week is poor tackling and missed tackles. That's on these lazy, complaining players....not the coaches.
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Kevin Jones, formerly of clevelandbrowns.com, filed the report Friday.
"Recently, a number of players have told me what they believe is the main impetus behind the continual running-back beatings: The Browns have issues with gap integrity - football speak for jamming the holes between the offensive linemen - at all.
Rather than being assigned specific gaps, Cleveland's defensive linemen play different techniques based on how their offensive counterparts are blocking them. The linebackers, then, are expected to guess what technique their teammates are using, scrape through the resulting mess and make the play. Opposing offenses have identified this flaw on film and are repeatedly, week-after-week, gashing the edge of Cleveland's defense. Its a completely chaotic approach to stopping the run, and players have said - off the record - they're spending way too much time thinking, and not nearly enough time reacting.
'Its an entire guessing game,' said one source. 'Imagine trying to define mud.'
Indeed, the defense may be too complicated for its own good - something the players have largely failed to address head on. Coordinator Jim O'Neil comes from the Pettine-Rex Ryan lineage, whereby part of the defensive philosophy is to cause pre-snap identification problems for quarterbacks and offensive linemen. It's a scheme that flourished with the Ravens, Jets and Bills but has so far failed to yield reliable results in Cleveland.
Simply put, the Browns are spending so much time figuring out ways to trick the offense, they're leaving themselves little to no margin for error. If it means dropping linebacker Paul Kruger in coverage to fool Peyton Manning, despite the latter being a scheme-identifying genius, Cleveland will do it. In other words, the Browns are so worried about you figuring out their cards, they wind up putting certain players in the wrong position."
http://www.si.com/thecauldron/2015/10/21/mike-pettine-cleveland-browns-defense-problems-afc-north
Most troubling to me is the line "... something the players have largely failed to address head on." Players, at least the leaders on D, have to be communicating with the staff and the staff should be asking for input.
Kevin Jones, formerly of clevelandbrowns.com, filed the report Friday.
"Recently, a number of players have told me what they believe is the main impetus behind the continual running-back beatings: The Browns have issues with gap integrity - football speak for jamming the holes between the offensive linemen - at all.
Rather than being assigned specific gaps, Cleveland's defensive linemen play different techniques based on how their offensive counterparts are blocking them. The linebackers, then, are expected to guess what technique their teammates are using, scrape through the resulting mess and make the play. Opposing offenses have identified this flaw on film and are repeatedly, week-after-week, gashing the edge of Cleveland's defense. Its a completely chaotic approach to stopping the run, and players have said - off the record - they're spending way too much time thinking, and not nearly enough time reacting.
'Its an entire guessing game,' said one source. 'Imagine trying to define mud.'
Indeed, the defense may be too complicated for its own good - something the players have largely failed to address head on. Coordinator Jim O'Neil comes from the Pettine-Rex Ryan lineage, whereby part of the defensive philosophy is to cause pre-snap identification problems for quarterbacks and offensive linemen. It's a scheme that flourished with the Ravens, Jets and Bills but has so far failed to yield reliable results in Cleveland.
Simply put, the Browns are spending so much time figuring out ways to trick the offense, they're leaving themselves little to no margin for error. If it means dropping linebacker Paul Kruger in coverage to fool Peyton Manning, despite the latter being a scheme-identifying genius, Cleveland will do it. In other words, the Browns are so worried about you figuring out their cards, they wind up putting certain players in the wrong position."
http://www.si.com/thecauldron/2015/10/21/mike-pettine-cleveland-browns-defense-problems-afc-north
Most troubling to me is the line "... something the players have largely failed to address head on." Players, at least the leaders on D, have to be communicating with the staff and the staff should be asking for input.
When did it succeed in Buffalo? Weren't they one of the 4 teams we beat in 2013 on a night Weeden had to replace an injured Brian Hoyer. That seemed like the only opponent that couldn't get Weeden to cooperate with beating the Cleveland Browns that year.
Totally agree with the last 3 sentences above. Ranking 32nd vrs the run in Cleveland says all that it has to. This comes from a guy that wears rose colored glasses as often as possible.
I was once told by a coach the difference between winning and losing resides in your ability to evaluate. If you can't acknowledge the truth, the garbage continuing to be swept under the rug stinks more while it recruits more noses. What goes on film is your vulnerabilities and which opponent hasn't found them this year?
Here's the 1 thing I do know - our Head Coach got his NFL potty training in Baltimore where Team Leaders (Ray Lewis & Ed Reed) meant way more to winning than B.Billick or any DC they had. I also read that they hosted get togethers where they chowed & studied film of tendencies, pre-snap keys and all those little intangibles that perpetuated them playing faster than their opponents most of the time. That was above and beyond what they might have had to do with their position coaches/teammates at the Rathouse. I never get the impression they were too terrified to tell their Head Coach if something seemed too confusing or appeared square peg-round hole. That built-in leadership at there got a lot of former DCs/Defensive Staff some Head Coaching jobs.
If we had ideal team leaders today - they wouldn't be bitching to the papers. They'd man up and take the truth to Pettine unless it's already happened and he gave them a great big F--- you (which I doubt). The frustrating thing is this is fixable stuff at least to an extent it's not preventing us from winning really close games.
It feels like we're walking a fine line between going on a run and rolling over and playing dead.
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This defensive coaching staff is definitely not very good. However...one of the most frustrating things I see every week is poor tackling and missed tackles. That's on these lazy, complaining players....not the coaches.
-
I guess my main question is, where did this whole defensive scheme idea come from? Some team somewhere must've had success with it, right?
I guess my main question is, where did this whole defensive scheme idea come from? Some team somewhere must've had success with it, right?
Legit question. It's important to understand there is no Haloti Ngata in front of Ray Lewis inside or T. Suggs dominating 1 edge here. And there's definitely no Ed Reed intercepting everything in sight at the back end. Meatball on spaghetti, beating an opponent to their own tendency/area comes from being extremely well prepared.
Come game time, those bastards always knew our offensive playbook better than half the rent-a-squids we were going with. It seemed like every RB on the Houston Texans practice squad used to get pumped knowing he'd have a chance to start in Cleveland by the end of the year. Good Lord!
Prepare well and you play fast. Going into Sundays with too many questions - doesn't reward the church mice for staying silent. Waiting for passive aggressive opportunities in the press to scapegoat 1 coach after the fact doesn't impress me at all.
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I'll be interested to see today whether this represents a legitimate rift between team and staff or not.
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I'll be interested to see today whether this represents a legitimate rift between team and staff or not.
I'll be interested to see today whether this represents a legitimate rift between team and staff or not.
Me too! I don't think I could take another round of firing the coach only to rehire another coach from a very small list of interested candidates. Every time we mess this up, that makes the next list of interested candidates even smaller. This also impacts how many veteran FAs that would even consider this place. Even worse, a new philosophy could take a guy like D'Qwell Jackson who played the best football of his career in a 4-3 and morph him into somebody we need to replace. That math says we're adding guys that need to be purged outta here, which only keeps playoffs here scheduled for the 12th of Never. But good look communicating that to the Walter Whites of this fan base every Sunday.
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Maybe, but they didn't just put in this system overnight and
teach it in six weeks.
Teams generally have systems installed for years.
It's stupid to throw that much complication at the Browns defense
and expect them to be successful right out of the gate.
If it's Pettine's defense he got from wherever, it hasn't been successful where he's been.
You'd think he would make changes.
And, btw, he MUST stop all the constant micromanaging of the defense with substitutions.
It's signalling to the offense what they do with different packages.
My solution - bring Bill Parcells in, and either install him as defensive coordinator and make
Oneil his assistant, or at least make Bill Parcells a major advisor to help Oneil grow into a
SMART defensive coordinator.
If it's Pettine's defense he got from wherever, it hasn't been successful where he's been.
You'd think he would make changes.
Depends on how you measure success... So far folks have been talking up stopping the run.
Birthplace of "the D" was surely BLT, but Pet was primarily OLB Coach during his seven years there. While he was there the D was regularly top six with two exceptions as measured by total yards allowed.
In Pet's 4 years as DC of the Jets their D was ranked 1, 3, 5, and 8 in total yards allowed. Trended in wrong direction...
In his one year as Bills DC they ranked 12th.
Since failure to stop the run game can actually reduce total yards allowed, further breakdown is necessary.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
So who are our defensive studs? 33 year old Karlos Dansby? 30 year old Donte Whitner? 31 year old Randy Starks? 32 year old Tramon Williams? We watch a lot of football but I don't know how we keep missing the key fact that our players are either old or not very good. The Browns continue to lack talent and we continue to blame coaches. Brian Hartline, Dwayne Bowe, Randy Starks and Tramon Williams were the big signings, wow blown away.
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So, rememeber a few weeks ago when I called for more one gap assignments? It would allow the players to line up faster, play more aggressively and have smaller sample sizes of responsibility?
Yeah.....
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If it's Pettine's defense he got from wherever, it hasn't been successful where he's been.
You'd think he would make changes.
Depends on how you measure success... So far folks have been talking up stopping the run.
Birthplace of "the D" was surely BLT, but Pet was primarily OLB Coach during his seven years there. While he was there the D was regularly top six with two exceptions as measured by total yards allowed.
In Pet's 4 years as DC of the Jets their D was ranked 1, 3, 5, and 8 in total yards allowed. Trended in wrong direction...
In his one year as Bills DC they ranked 12th.
Since failure to stop the run game can actually reduce total yards allowed, further breakdown is necessary.
Depends on how you measure success... So far folks have been talking up stopping the run.
Birthplace of "the D" was surely BLT, but Pet was primarily OLB Coach during his seven years there. While he was there the D was regularly top six with two exceptions as measured by total yards allowed.
In Pet's 4 years as DC of the Jets their D was ranked 1, 3, 5, and 8 in total yards allowed. Trended in wrong direction...
In his one year as Bills DC they ranked 12th.
Since failure to stop the run game can actually reduce total yards allowed, further breakdown is necessary.
It's worth noting how the Bills defense improved in every category after Pettine's departure.
Keep in mind, I like Pettine. However I'm not necessarily in complete agreement with his defensive fronts nor some of his coverage calls in this new NFL.
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True, tia, but they also improved under Pet in his one year there... 22nd to 10th.
Also noteworthy... the BUF D is not looking so good two years removed from Pet.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
True, tia, but they also improved under Pet in his one year there... 22nd to 10th.
Also noteworthy... the BUF D is not looking so good two years removed from Pet.
True, tia, but they also improved under Pet in his one year there... 22nd to 10th.
Also noteworthy... the BUF D is not looking so good two years removed from Pet.
Keep in mind what changes Rexy has done to that scheme and what he's asking of his talent.
His own players have openly questioned their assignments. To which I rightfully agree, you don't see THAT large a drop off in production first year of a new alignment and calls then in turn feel its on the players shoulders to produce.
Schwartz was the man for that team and Ryan's arrogance has cost him.
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