McCown starts if healthy
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As far as Johnny is concerned, does anyone really think he would have done better against the Rams continuous pressure? If McCown fumbled twice, lord knows how many times Johnny would've fumbled it away. The ONLY possibility I can think of for Johnny's success would've come from his legs. It's somewhat possible that he could've scampered for some big first downs, or even a touchdown, but who knows? McCown has earned the right to start in my eyes, and if he's healthy, he should start.
Now, at some point in this awful season, there will come a time when you have to play Johnny simply to see what you have (if anything) for next year. The only way to get experience is to play, but the thing is with that...once you make the move to Johnny, I think you're basically surrendering the season and saying, "Well, we're out of it now, might as well play Johnny." The players would know that too, and I don't think Pettine wants to surrender just yet. As bad as we are, we're still professionals, and pros don't quit. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Johnny gives everyone a spark...but I don't see it. Especially after this last debacle with the police.
Johnny also doesn't have a big receiver he can just lob the ball to either. How many big plays did he have where he chunked it up to Mike Evans? Yeah...can't really do that with Gabriel. And what QB can win without a running game besides Tom Brady? How fair is it to McCown when Crow averages zero yards per carry? There will come a point this season where we have to see what Johnny has, and that point is coming very soon. But I don't think we're there yet. Inside Pettine's head, I'm sure he's thinking, "If we can just win four in a row, we're back in it." Yeah...keep dreaming, buddy.
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The best guy on our offensive line will be in the Hall of Fame while the worst guy is average. All of a sudden they can't play together. Our defense under the direction of a defensive coordinator handpicked by a defensive coach, is the highest paid in the league. All of a sudden they can't play together either.
What's the difference who lines up under center if those two groups have fallen apart?
And who is to blame for how many yards in penalties and how many yards in gains negated by those penalties? Not Johnny Manziel not Josh McCown not Austin Davis...
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Shaw is on season-ending IR.
It is Johnny and then Davis.
I can't see NFL suspending Johnny in the middle of the season when he was not charged by the police, but stranger things have happened.
Zombo
Zombo said:
Shaw is on season-ending IR.
It is Johnny and then Davis.
I can't see NFL suspending Johnny in the middle of the season when he was not charged by the police, but stranger things have happened.
Zombo
Since it was in pre-season, I thought we had the option to bring him back to the roster after week 6, unless they decided to keep him on IR?
Not that it matters there's no reason to expect to see Shaw regardless.
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Zombo said:
Shaw is on season-ending IR.
It is Johnny and then Davis.
I can't see NFL suspending Johnny in the middle of the season when he was not charged by the police, but stranger things have happened.
Zombo
Since it was in pre-season, I thought we had the option to bring him back to the roster after week 6, unless they decided to keep him on IR?
Not that it matters there's no reason to expect to see Shaw regardless.
Since it was in pre-season, I thought we had the option to bring him back to the roster after week 6, unless they decided to keep him on IR?
Not that it matters there's no reason to expect to see Shaw regardless.
He's on season-ending IR, not designated to return (in which case, if it's before the season, like with Charles Gaines and Glenn Winston, they can start practising in week 6 and be activated in week 8).
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I see the stars lining up for this scenario . . . McCown out, Johnny suspended, Austin Davis hurt in first series . . . Brian Hartline goes on to be the winingest QB in Browns history . . .
In all seriousness though, I think at this point all evidence is saying that the Browns are just flat out done with Johnny. That's the only explanation for the decisions they have made concerning the QB position. All this talk about him changing must be media fodder to boost his trade value as much as possible. If they really believed all this why are they so hesitant to give the kid a chance?
I really don't blame them if they are done with him, other than making the pick in the first place, but if they have any hope that he could be the QB of the future I feel they are making a mistake by not letting him gain game day experience now. Cause no matter who starts at QB this team is going nowhere good anyhow.
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What I see in Pettine is a scared coach.....he's saying to himself "if I can just get to 6-10 or 7-9 or so, they will give me another year right? right?"......that's exactly what you DONT want in a coach. The reality is that he knows this is his ONLY chance, and if it doesnt pan out there is not going to be another head coaching job with his track record. He was never a golden boy or can't miss coordinator who maybe gets another shot if the first go doesn't work out, and he knows it. It's win now, or hit the bricks pal. His second place is a set of steak knives.
You can also see it in how defensive pettine is with the media. Like it's a ridiculous question to inquire about the qb position when a 2-5 franchise headed towards another losing season is throwing a 36 year old journeyman backup with one of the worst records in nfl history with a minimum number of starts out there......
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westside steve- Mike Pettine has to take the blame for this. He is the head coach, even if nobody outside of cleveland fans could pick him out of a lineup
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Great post from Westside Steve!
I know it's popular to hate Manziel and a lot of guys want credit for that almighty told you so. That said, if the front office & staff have reached a consensus Manziel is a goner after this year - would it kill them to try to get a 2nd good outing on film this year (especially while McCown is in a lot of pain) so we can get some type of exchange value on this first round draft pick? It isn't like we've been winning and we're protecting a playoff run this week. We're actually 1-0 in games Manziel started this year; and a very pretty in pink 1-5 with the 36 year old. It would at least be nice to say this is what Manziel looks like as a 22 year old that actually studies the game vrs the 21 year old missing his junior season of eligibility.
For those of you that want a football messiah at QB in the next draft, the best way to land him is to get the pick of the litter if starting Manziel 1 more time becomes the train wreck some are predicting before we get back to losing with prettier QB stats via McCown again. We're 2-5 and these OT losses aren't exactly triggering warm and fuzzy Koombayas in here. I'm seeing more vocal fans refusing to look at the difference between that ability to compete for 60+ minutes up against the 4-12 competitive value/lack-there-of we had in 2013.
I've been in McCown's corner since we signed him; but I also want to know WHY we have a first round QB being employed here. I didn't draft him (but confess to wanting us to) so I never created this. Since we DID draft him and he HAS shown improvement - I'm not understanding why there would be a huge reluctance to see him this week. I've already witnessed the angry response in here to playing an undefeated Denver team into OT. And folks, if you think Jim Kelly and Bernie Kosar weren't partying heavy when they were in their early-mid 20s - I have some land for sale in Alligator Alley. If he's studying film, working hard and consulting with McCown during games - I'm seeing a much different guy than I saw last year. My biggest worry with Manziel is the same one I have with McCown - don't fumble it away.
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McCown can rack up tons of yardage and get them to the end zone, but in the end the Browns have more field goals than touchdowns. What if Pettine lets McCown take them to the end zone and then runs a surprise "Johnny package" to get them a chance at a touchdown instead of always settling for field goals?
In all seriousness though, there is something wrong with both lines this year and that's not the QB's fault (although McCown does tend to hold on to the ball too long on some plays). Offensive line can't get it together, Mack is pushed backwards every play, stupid penalties everywhere, letting runners get by untouched to pressure McCown, the list goes on. D-line isn't doing much better with their inability to stop the run and to tackle. I don't know if it's a scheme issue, a strength/conditioning issue or what, but both lines regressed horribly this season. On the D-line, I don't think it has much to do with losing Phil Taylor or Jabaal Sheard, they were injured for most of last season. O-line hasn't changed much since last season either in terms of personnel. So, what is the problem? If we lose on the lines, we lose the game, no matter who is at QB.
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Can Andy Moeller really be that good an OL coach?
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excellent post by flugel.
I want to take issue with this bs myth that Mccown is somehow a model of productivity that is keeping us in close losses however. The only loss he was really productive in was the San diego loss. (san diego sucks btw)
In the st louis loss, our offense scored 6 pts. 6 pts. Thats not productive. Thats terrible. Had johnny started, how much less productive than 6 pts and 2 lost fumbles can you get?
In the denver loss, our offense scored 17 pts. In overtime(so actually less than that prorated to a whole game). Oh, and our defense kept setting the offense up in GREAT field position on a few occasions that our offense pissed away. Oh, and mccown threw a terrible pick 6, so even the mediocre 17 pts scored on offense in an OT game is less valuable(when you give 7 to the defense yourself)
So the last two games in particular, no, Mccown has not been productive in the least. Not if the goal is to get an offense scoring points at least.....
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excellent post by flugel.
I want to take issue with this bs myth that Mccown is somehow a model of productivity that is keeping us in close losses however. The only loss he was really productive in was the San diego loss. (san diego sucks btw)
In the st louis loss, our offense scored 6 pts. 6 pts. Thats not productive. Thats terrible. Had johnny started, how much less productive than 6 pts and 2 lost fumbles can you get?
In the denver loss, our offense scored 17 pts. In overtime(so actually less than that prorated to a whole game). Oh, and our defense kept setting the offense up in GREAT field position on a few occasions that our offense pissed away. Oh, and mccown threw a terrible pick 6, so even the mediocre 17 pts scored on offense in an OT game is less valuable(when you give 7 to the defense yourself)
So the last two games in particular, no, Mccown has not been productive in the least. Not if the goal is to get an offense scoring points at least.....
excellent post by flugel.
I want to take issue with this bs myth that Mccown is somehow a model of productivity that is keeping us in close losses however. The only loss he was really productive in was the San diego loss. (san diego sucks btw)
In the st louis loss, our offense scored 6 pts. 6 pts. Thats not productive. Thats terrible. Had johnny started, how much less productive than 6 pts and 2 lost fumbles can you get?
...3, 4 lost fumbles? I don't know that Johnny would have done better than McCown and neither do you, but Johnny fumbles the ball every time the wind changes direction so that's something to be worried about.
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excellent post by flugel.
I want to take issue with this bs myth that Mccown is somehow a model of productivity that is keeping us in close losses however. The only loss he was really productive in was the San diego loss. (san diego sucks btw)
In the st louis loss, our offense scored 6 pts. 6 pts. Thats not productive. Thats terrible. Had johnny started, how much less productive than 6 pts and 2 lost fumbles can you get?
In the denver loss, our offense scored 17 pts. In overtime(so actually less than that prorated to a whole game). Oh, and our defense kept setting the offense up in GREAT field position on a few occasions that our offense pissed away. Oh, and mccown threw a terrible pick 6, so even the mediocre 17 pts scored on offense in an OT game is less valuable(when you give 7 to the defense yourself)
So the last two games in particular, no, Mccown has not been productive in the least. Not if the goal is to get an offense scoring points at least.....
excellent post by flugel.
I want to take issue with this bs myth that Mccown is somehow a model of productivity that is keeping us in close losses however. The only loss he was really productive in was the San diego loss. (san diego sucks btw)
In the st louis loss, our offense scored 6 pts. 6 pts. Thats not productive. Thats terrible. Had johnny started, how much less productive than 6 pts and 2 lost fumbles can you get?
In the denver loss, our offense scored 17 pts. In overtime(so actually less than that prorated to a whole game). Oh, and our defense kept setting the offense up in GREAT field position on a few occasions that our offense pissed away. Oh, and mccown threw a terrible pick 6, so even the mediocre 17 pts scored on offense in an OT game is less valuable(when you give 7 to the defense yourself)
So the last two games in particular, no, Mccown has not been productive in the least. Not if the goal is to get an offense scoring points at least.....
Thanks Taco! Here's a cut and paste of it:
Great post from Westside Steve!
I know it's popular to hate Manziel and a lot of guys want credit for that almighty told you so. That said, if the front office & staff have reached a consensus Manziel is a goner after this year - would it kill them to try to get a 2nd good outing on film this year (especially while McCown is in a lot of pain) so we can get some type of exchange value on this first round draft pick? It isn't like we've been winning and we're protecting a playoff run this week. We're actually 1-0 in games Manziel started this year; and a very pretty in pink 1-5 with the 36 year old. It would at least be nice to say this is what Manziel looks like as a 22 year old that actually studies the game vrs the 21 year old missing his junior season of eligibility.
For those of you that want a football messiah at QB in the next draft, the best way to land him is to get the pick of the litter if starting Manziel 1 more time becomes the train wreck some are predicting before we get back to losing with prettier QB stats via McCown again. We're 2-5 and these OT losses aren't exactly triggering warm and fuzzy Koombayas in here. I'm seeing more vocal fans refusing to look at the difference between that ability to compete for 60+ minutes up against the 4-12 competitive value/lack-there-of we had in 2013.
I've been in McCown's corner since we signed him; but I also want to know WHY we have a first round QB being employed here. I didn't draft him (but confess to wanting us to) so I never created this. Since we DID draft him and he HAS shown improvement - I'm not understanding why there would be a huge reluctance to see him this week. I've already witnessed the angry response in here to playing an undefeated Denver team into OT. And folks, if you think Jim Kelly and Bernie Kosar weren't partying heavy when they were in their early-mid 20s - I have some land for sale in Alligator Alley. If he's studying film, working hard and consulting with McCown during games - I'm seeing a much different guy than I saw last year. My biggest worry with Manziel is the same one I have with McCown - don't fumble it away.
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excellent post by flugel.
I want to take issue with this bs myth that Mccown is somehow a model of productivity that is keeping us in close losses however. The only loss he was really productive in was the San diego loss. (san diego sucks btw)
In the st louis loss, our offense scored 6 pts. 6 pts. Thats not productive. Thats terrible. Had johnny started, how much less productive than 6 pts and 2 lost fumbles can you get?
...3, 4 lost fumbles? I don't know that Johnny would have done better than McCown and neither do you, but Johnny fumbles the ball every time the wind changes direction so that's something to be worried about.
...3, 4 lost fumbles? I don't know that Johnny would have done better than McCown and neither do you, but Johnny fumbles the ball every time the wind changes direction so that's something to be worried about.
All we can go by is what he did when given the chance to start this year.
You think Blake Bortles doesn't fumble or make blunders during his learning curve? All you guys that want to draft a QB every single year are going to have to endure some growing pains when it happens. All this time we extend a 36 year old's career while we lose games anyhow - we nip the progress we saw on the field in the bud. Someone prolly can't wait to tell me Manziel only had 8 completions in his start; but Josh was 26 of 32 when we overwhelmed the Rams' defense with 6 points from our kicker. When 3 of those 8 completions are TD passes and none of the 26 completions are TD passes - we're not seeing the same Victorious Secrets.
What would suck, if God forbid, Manziel actually plays and comes of age? You predicted otherwise?
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...3, 4 lost fumbles? I don't know that Johnny would have done better than McCown and neither do you, but Johnny fumbles the ball every time the wind changes direction so that's something to be worried about.
All we can go by is what he did when given the chance to start this year.
You think Blake Bortles doesn't fumble or make blunders during his learning curve? All you guys that want to draft a QB every single year are going to have to endure some growing pains when it happens. All this time we extend a 36 year old's career while we lose games anyhow - we nip the progress we saw on the field in the bud. Someone prolly can't wait to tell me Manziel only had 8 completions in his start; but Josh was 26 of 32 when we overwhelmed the Rams' defense with 6 points from our kicker. When 3 of those 8 completions are TD passes and none of the 26 completions are TD passes - we're not seeing the same Victorious Secrets.
What would suck, if God forbid, Manziel actually plays and comes of age? You predicted otherwise?
All we can go by is what he did when given the chance to start this year.
Two long passes to a wide open Benjamin combined with a whole lotta-nothing-else. (And a couple fumbles he got lucky to not lose) A poor 3 quarters against the Jets.
He looks to be improving and I'm happy about that and I'd like to see him on the field, but there's nothing that convinces me he gives us the best chance to win - which is why I can't be critical of Pettine for choosing to stick with McCown - especially when he isn't playing that bad and has set a browns record / current season record in that 3-game stretch.
I don't think McCown would have lost the game against the Titans...
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westside steve- Mike Pettine has to take the blame for this. He is the head coach, even if nobody outside of cleveland fans could pick him out of a lineup
westside steve- Mike Pettine has to take the blame for this. He is the head coach, even if nobody outside of cleveland fans could pick him out of a lineup
Correct: he is Harry Truman:
But what did Truman have that Pettine doesn't? A Fat Man and a Little Boy.
Pettine needs a couple of those....figuratively.
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I don't even care at this point. The season is over and the browns suck again no matter who is out there
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If he could turn this into a winning season I'd say hire him back and when there are problems in his love life I'll personally Drive to his apartment and kick his wife's ass for him.
WSS
LOL
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