McCown starts if healthy
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excellent post by flugel.
I want to take issue with this bs myth that Mccown is somehow a model of productivity that is keeping us in close losses however. The only loss he was really productive in was the San diego loss. (san diego sucks btw)
In the st louis loss, our offense scored 6 pts. 6 pts. Thats not productive. Thats terrible. Had johnny started, how much less productive than 6 pts and 2 lost fumbles can you get?
In the denver loss, our offense scored 17 pts. In overtime(so actually less than that prorated to a whole game). Oh, and our defense kept setting the offense up in GREAT field position on a few occasions that our offense pissed away. Oh, and mccown threw a terrible pick 6, so even the mediocre 17 pts scored on offense in an OT game is less valuable(when you give 7 to the defense yourself)
So the last two games in particular, no, Mccown has not been productive in the least. Not if the goal is to get an offense scoring points at least.....
excellent post by flugel.
I want to take issue with this bs myth that Mccown is somehow a model of productivity that is keeping us in close losses however. The only loss he was really productive in was the San diego loss. (san diego sucks btw)
In the st louis loss, our offense scored 6 pts. 6 pts. Thats not productive. Thats terrible. Had johnny started, how much less productive than 6 pts and 2 lost fumbles can you get?
...3, 4 lost fumbles? I don't know that Johnny would have done better than McCown and neither do you, but Johnny fumbles the ball every time the wind changes direction so that's something to be worried about.
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excellent post by flugel.
I want to take issue with this bs myth that Mccown is somehow a model of productivity that is keeping us in close losses however. The only loss he was really productive in was the San diego loss. (san diego sucks btw)
In the st louis loss, our offense scored 6 pts. 6 pts. Thats not productive. Thats terrible. Had johnny started, how much less productive than 6 pts and 2 lost fumbles can you get?
In the denver loss, our offense scored 17 pts. In overtime(so actually less than that prorated to a whole game). Oh, and our defense kept setting the offense up in GREAT field position on a few occasions that our offense pissed away. Oh, and mccown threw a terrible pick 6, so even the mediocre 17 pts scored on offense in an OT game is less valuable(when you give 7 to the defense yourself)
So the last two games in particular, no, Mccown has not been productive in the least. Not if the goal is to get an offense scoring points at least.....
excellent post by flugel.
I want to take issue with this bs myth that Mccown is somehow a model of productivity that is keeping us in close losses however. The only loss he was really productive in was the San diego loss. (san diego sucks btw)
In the st louis loss, our offense scored 6 pts. 6 pts. Thats not productive. Thats terrible. Had johnny started, how much less productive than 6 pts and 2 lost fumbles can you get?
In the denver loss, our offense scored 17 pts. In overtime(so actually less than that prorated to a whole game). Oh, and our defense kept setting the offense up in GREAT field position on a few occasions that our offense pissed away. Oh, and mccown threw a terrible pick 6, so even the mediocre 17 pts scored on offense in an OT game is less valuable(when you give 7 to the defense yourself)
So the last two games in particular, no, Mccown has not been productive in the least. Not if the goal is to get an offense scoring points at least.....
Thanks Taco! Here's a cut and paste of it:
Great post from Westside Steve!
I know it's popular to hate Manziel and a lot of guys want credit for that almighty told you so. That said, if the front office & staff have reached a consensus Manziel is a goner after this year - would it kill them to try to get a 2nd good outing on film this year (especially while McCown is in a lot of pain) so we can get some type of exchange value on this first round draft pick? It isn't like we've been winning and we're protecting a playoff run this week. We're actually 1-0 in games Manziel started this year; and a very pretty in pink 1-5 with the 36 year old. It would at least be nice to say this is what Manziel looks like as a 22 year old that actually studies the game vrs the 21 year old missing his junior season of eligibility.
For those of you that want a football messiah at QB in the next draft, the best way to land him is to get the pick of the litter if starting Manziel 1 more time becomes the train wreck some are predicting before we get back to losing with prettier QB stats via McCown again. We're 2-5 and these OT losses aren't exactly triggering warm and fuzzy Koombayas in here. I'm seeing more vocal fans refusing to look at the difference between that ability to compete for 60+ minutes up against the 4-12 competitive value/lack-there-of we had in 2013.
I've been in McCown's corner since we signed him; but I also want to know WHY we have a first round QB being employed here. I didn't draft him (but confess to wanting us to) so I never created this. Since we DID draft him and he HAS shown improvement - I'm not understanding why there would be a huge reluctance to see him this week. I've already witnessed the angry response in here to playing an undefeated Denver team into OT. And folks, if you think Jim Kelly and Bernie Kosar weren't partying heavy when they were in their early-mid 20s - I have some land for sale in Alligator Alley. If he's studying film, working hard and consulting with McCown during games - I'm seeing a much different guy than I saw last year. My biggest worry with Manziel is the same one I have with McCown - don't fumble it away.
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excellent post by flugel.
I want to take issue with this bs myth that Mccown is somehow a model of productivity that is keeping us in close losses however. The only loss he was really productive in was the San diego loss. (san diego sucks btw)
In the st louis loss, our offense scored 6 pts. 6 pts. Thats not productive. Thats terrible. Had johnny started, how much less productive than 6 pts and 2 lost fumbles can you get?
...3, 4 lost fumbles? I don't know that Johnny would have done better than McCown and neither do you, but Johnny fumbles the ball every time the wind changes direction so that's something to be worried about.
...3, 4 lost fumbles? I don't know that Johnny would have done better than McCown and neither do you, but Johnny fumbles the ball every time the wind changes direction so that's something to be worried about.
All we can go by is what he did when given the chance to start this year.
You think Blake Bortles doesn't fumble or make blunders during his learning curve? All you guys that want to draft a QB every single year are going to have to endure some growing pains when it happens. All this time we extend a 36 year old's career while we lose games anyhow - we nip the progress we saw on the field in the bud. Someone prolly can't wait to tell me Manziel only had 8 completions in his start; but Josh was 26 of 32 when we overwhelmed the Rams' defense with 6 points from our kicker. When 3 of those 8 completions are TD passes and none of the 26 completions are TD passes - we're not seeing the same Victorious Secrets.
What would suck, if God forbid, Manziel actually plays and comes of age? You predicted otherwise?
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...3, 4 lost fumbles? I don't know that Johnny would have done better than McCown and neither do you, but Johnny fumbles the ball every time the wind changes direction so that's something to be worried about.
All we can go by is what he did when given the chance to start this year.
You think Blake Bortles doesn't fumble or make blunders during his learning curve? All you guys that want to draft a QB every single year are going to have to endure some growing pains when it happens. All this time we extend a 36 year old's career while we lose games anyhow - we nip the progress we saw on the field in the bud. Someone prolly can't wait to tell me Manziel only had 8 completions in his start; but Josh was 26 of 32 when we overwhelmed the Rams' defense with 6 points from our kicker. When 3 of those 8 completions are TD passes and none of the 26 completions are TD passes - we're not seeing the same Victorious Secrets.
What would suck, if God forbid, Manziel actually plays and comes of age? You predicted otherwise?
All we can go by is what he did when given the chance to start this year.
Two long passes to a wide open Benjamin combined with a whole lotta-nothing-else. (And a couple fumbles he got lucky to not lose) A poor 3 quarters against the Jets.
He looks to be improving and I'm happy about that and I'd like to see him on the field, but there's nothing that convinces me he gives us the best chance to win - which is why I can't be critical of Pettine for choosing to stick with McCown - especially when he isn't playing that bad and has set a browns record / current season record in that 3-game stretch.
I don't think McCown would have lost the game against the Titans...
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westside steve- Mike Pettine has to take the blame for this. He is the head coach, even if nobody outside of cleveland fans could pick him out of a lineup
westside steve- Mike Pettine has to take the blame for this. He is the head coach, even if nobody outside of cleveland fans could pick him out of a lineup
Correct: he is Harry Truman:
But what did Truman have that Pettine doesn't? A Fat Man and a Little Boy.
Pettine needs a couple of those....figuratively.
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I don't even care at this point. The season is over and the browns suck again no matter who is out there
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If he could turn this into a winning season I'd say hire him back and when there are problems in his love life I'll personally Drive to his apartment and kick his wife's ass for him.
WSS
LOL
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I guess the real question would be, if McCown can't play will Johnny even be available to play this week after his NFL meeting and if not, will Connor Shaw back up Davis or do they have to sign another QB...
Johnny will be able to play, there's 0% he won't be elligible.
If that 0% chance comes to fruition, it'd likely be Shaw as the #2 though - he was places on IR but is elligible to return now if I understand correctly.
Johnny will be able to play, there's 0% he won't be elligible.
Man... killing the conspiracy theory in its crib... and the headline would have written itself:
"Goodell Waits until McCown Hurt before Suspending Manziel"
... would it kill them to try to get a 2nd good outing on film this year...
Bird in the hand, Flugs...
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Why wouldn't the best QB on your team be the starter if he's healthy?
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I agree, now, that JM's time has come to show us what he can do.
McCown has lived greatly up to his level of ability. And, the Browns are still losing.
JM should have been around long enough this year to know how to compensate for the
tiny little wr's he has to work with, although, to the point about McCown running the offense,
and only gaining so many points vs Denver....
Peyton Manning didn't make many more points than that, either, and he has far better wr's.
So, there's that.
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All we can go by is what he did when given the chance to start this year.
Two long passes to a wide open Benjamin combined with a whole lotta-nothing-else. (And a couple fumbles he got lucky to not lose) A poor 3 quarters against the Jets.
He looks to be improving and I'm happy about that and I'd like to see him on the field, but there's nothing that convinces me he gives us the best chance to win - which is why I can't be critical of Pettine for choosing to stick with McCown - especially when he isn't playing that bad and has set a browns record / current season record in that 3-game stretch.
I don't think McCown would have lost the game against the Titans...
Two long passes to a wide open Benjamin combined with a whole lotta-nothing-else. (And a couple fumbles he got lucky to not lose) A poor 3 quarters against the Jets.
He looks to be improving and I'm happy about that and I'd like to see him on the field, but there's nothing that convinces me he gives us the best chance to win - which is why I can't be critical of Pettine for choosing to stick with McCown - especially when he isn't playing that bad and has set a browns record / current season record in that 3-game stretch.
I don't think McCown would have lost the game against the Titans...
the point is that he *did* hit the two big passes and they did lead to points and a big lead and a nice victory. Honestly, how do we know mccown would have hit those passes? For all we know he chooses to dump the ball in the flat instead....after all we saw a whole hell of a lot of that in the rams game as he impressed some in here with his completion percentage....on the way to 6 pts.
Josh Mccown has led the offense to 23 total points in the last 2 games. That's not good, especially when he threw a terrible pick 6 as well(subtract 7 essentially). And it's even worse when you consider the opportunities he was given in the denver game.
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Two long passes to a wide open Benjamin combined with a whole lotta-nothing-else. (And a couple fumbles he got lucky to not lose) A poor 3 quarters against the Jets.
He looks to be improving and I'm happy about that and I'd like to see him on the field, but there's nothing that convinces me he gives us the best chance to win - which is why I can't be critical of Pettine for choosing to stick with McCown - especially when he isn't playing that bad and has set a browns record / current season record in that 3-game stretch.
I don't think McCown would have lost the game against the Titans...
the point is that he *did* hit the two big passes and they did lead to points and a big lead and a nice victory. Honestly, how do we know mccown would have hit those passes? For all we know he chooses to dump the ball in the flat instead....after all we saw a whole hell of a lot of that in the rams game as he impressed some in here with his completion percentage....on the way to 6 pts.
Josh Mccown has led the offense to 23 total points in the last 2 games. That's not good, especially when he threw a terrible pick 6 as well(subtract 7 essentially). And it's even worse when you consider the opportunities he was given in the denver game.
the point is that he *did* hit the two big passes and they did lead to points and a big lead and a nice victory. Honestly, how do we know mccown would have hit those passes?
How do we know Manziel would have hit the 8TD passes that McCown has hit so far?
Anybody that watched the rams game knows that McCown played pretty good, but a slew of penalties and fumbles impeded our offensive progress. McCown averaged 8 yards per attempt - and had some nice throws down the middle of the field - so I'm not sure why you think all he does is dink and dunk it.
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The best guy on our offensive line will be in the Hall of Fame while the worst guy is average. All of a sudden they can't play together. Our defense under the direction of a defensive coordinator handpicked by a defensive coach, is the highest paid in the league. All of a sudden they can't play together either.
What's the difference who lines up under center if those two groups have fallen apart?
And who is to blame for how many yards in penalties and how many yards in gains negated by those penalties? Not Johnny Manziel not Josh McCown not Austin Davis...
WSS
The best guy on our offensive line will be in the Hall of Fame while the worst guy is average. All of a sudden they can't play together. Our defense under the direction of a defensive coordinator handpicked by a defensive coach, is the highest paid in the league. All of a sudden they can't play together either.
What's the difference who lines up under center if those two groups have fallen apart?
And who is to blame for how many yards in penalties and how many yards in gains negated by those penalties? Not Johnny Manziel not Josh McCown not Austin Davis...
WSS
Steve, exactly right- I want to know why the O & D lines have fallen apart. MHO it's on coaching that we got 3 holding penalties and one false start in ONE drive killers against the Rams,. We could have beaten them IF we had played error free football, but we literally played like the Clowns.
What I see in Pettine is a scared coach.....he's saying to himself "if I can just get to 6-10 or 7-9 or so, they will give me another year right? right?"......that's exactly what you DONT want in a coach. The reality is that he knows this is his ONLY chance, and if it doesnt pan out there is not going to be another head coaching job with his track record. He was never a golden boy or can't miss coordinator who maybe gets another shot if the first go doesn't work out, and he knows it. It's win now, or hit the bricks pal. His second place is a set of steak knives.
You can also see it in how defensive pettine is with the media. Like it's a ridiculous question to inquire about the qb position when a 2-5 franchise headed towards another losing season is throwing a 36 year old journeyman backup with one of the worst records in nfl history with a minimum number of starts out there......
Good point Taco.
I've been in McCown's corner since we signed him; but I also want to know WHY we have a first round QB being employed here. I didn't draft him (but confess to wanting us to) so I never created this. Since we DID draft him and he HAS shown improvement - I'm not understanding why there would be a huge reluctance to see him this week. I've already witnessed the angry response in here to playing an undefeated Denver team into OT. And folks, if you think Jim Kelly and Bernie Kosar weren't partying heavy when they were in their early-mid 20s - I have some land for sale in Alligator Alley. If he's studying film, working hard and consulting with McCown during games - I'm seeing a much different guy than I saw last year. My biggest worry with Manziel is the same one I have with McCown - don't fumble it away.
It might be Taco has a point- maybe Pettine is thinking if I can just get another 4 wins with McCown, I've saved my bacon. McCown has some pretty gaudy stats- and might be coloring Mike's judgement.
Does that tell you who perhaps it should be?
Austin Powers? I mean Austin Davis. We're losing games we should be winning.
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the point is that he *did* hit the two big passes and they did lead to points and a big lead and a nice victory. Honestly, how do we know mccown would have hit those passes?
How do we know Manziel would have hit the 8TD passes that McCown has hit so far?
Anybody that watched the rams game knows that McCown played pretty good, but a slew of penalties and fumbles impeded our offensive progress. McCown averaged 8 yards per attempt - and had some nice throws down the middle of the field - so I'm not sure why you think all he does is dink and dunk it.
How do we know Manziel would have hit the 8TD passes that McCown has hit so far?
Anybody that watched the rams game knows that McCown played pretty good, but a slew of penalties and fumbles impeded our offensive progress. McCown averaged 8 yards per attempt - and had some nice throws down the middle of the field - so I'm not sure why you think all he does is dink and dunk it.
no- the fumbles didnt mostly stop scoring drives, at least the early key ones. One was a fumble returned for td, so we got the ball RIGHT BACK on offense at the same point. Nothing lost there in terms of potential offensive production(it obviously cost us six points). The one right after that was also fumbled well in our own territory and the rams immediately kicked a fg and gave it right back to us there with little time off clock, so again virtually nothing lost in terms of time or a drive that the offense missed out on.
oh and btw mccown lost two of the fumbles himself, so if fumbling was what set back our offensive production then thats on him too.
And yes penalties hurt us, but that goes to my original point- at no point in the game did mccown do anything to overcome that. If 2nd and 8 becoems 2nd and 13, well if you are the qb that means you might have to take a shot a little more aggressively to overcome that. Increases the risk/reward balance a bit, but oh well.....thats a lot better than dumping it off time and time again and sending the punt team out.
They scored SIX POINTS. And the qb lost two fumbles. How in the hell can anyone say the qb played well when he committed two turnovers himself and led the offense to six points is beyond me.....
where were the plays the whole damn game where cleveland fans could say "there it is....bigtime throw that led to points". they DIDNT EXIST. And hence you have a 6 pt game....
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Sometimes.....big time throw that leads to point isn't there because there's something on the field called defense. Defense is generally prepared for that sort of thing when you're in 2nd/3rd and long and have had no success running the ball.
Fumbles from the QB are not always avoidable depending on the blind side, but it's not like Manziel is good in that regard since he has 4 this season in 2 games played. (Does the Jets came not count or....?)
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Why are we bothering worrying about josh mccown. Everyone know what mccown can do. And we suck with him. Now we need to see what manziel can do for real. Not for a game here and there. I don't know what your attachments are to mccown but we're not winning anything this year. Evaluate the 1st round quarterback you took.
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Why are we bothering worrying about josh mccown. Everyone know what mccown can do. And we suck with him. Now we need to see what manziel can do for real. Not for a game here and there. I don't know what your attachments are to mccown but we're not winning anything this year. Evaluate the 1st round quarterback you took.
Why are we bothering worrying about josh mccown. Everyone know what mccown can do. And we suck with him. Now we need to see what manziel can do for real. Not for a game here and there. I don't know what your attachments are to mccown but we're not winning anything this year. Evaluate the 1st round quarterback you took.
Pettine is afraid that if they start manziel and manziel blows(a real possibility) the team will go 4-12 instead of 6-10 and that the difference for him between 4-12 and 6-10 is one more year of being a head coach in the nfl. Because he is smart enough to know that this is it for him in that role....so ride it for as long as you can.
Im thinking though he may be miscalculating....if he goes 6-10 with mccown at the helm, WHAT IN THE HELL would management have to point to as a reason to keep in? Two mediocre years where we are completely irrelevant AND on top of that there is not even the excuse that we are trying to develop or take a chance with some qb. We're a 6-10 team going into year 3 with no direction, hope, or excuses.....
But if you throw johnny in there and he blows and we go 4-12, well at least pettine can take the "hey, I tried to shake it up and the kid didnt work out. He wasnt even my pick but I figured we needed to make sure he wasnt good and what did we have to lose".....that argument may be more likely to buy his sorry ass another year before being canned than having a dreadfully mediocre and irrelevant year under mccown that nobody cares about.
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Two long passes to a wide open Benjamin combined with a whole lotta-nothing-else. (And a couple fumbles he got lucky to not lose) A poor 3 quarters against the Jets.
He looks to be improving and I'm happy about that and I'd like to see him on the field, but there's nothing that convinces me he gives us the best chance to win - which is why I can't be critical of Pettine for choosing to stick with McCown - especially when he isn't playing that bad and has set a browns record / current season record in that 3-game stretch.
I don't think McCown would have lost the game against the Titans...
the point is that he *did* hit the two big passes and they did lead to points and a big lead and a nice victory. Honestly, how do we know mccown would have hit those passes? For all we know he chooses to dump the ball in the flat instead....after all we saw a whole hell of a lot of that in the rams game as he impressed some in here with his completion percentage....on the way to 6 pts.
Josh Mccown has led the offense to 23 total points in the last 2 games. That's not good, especially when he threw a terrible pick 6 as well(subtract 7 essentially). And it's even worse when you consider the opportunities he was given in the denver game.
LMFAO at all this Pet scared BS...
Also LMAO at an idiot who clearly cannot analyze QB play for shit wanting to see what JM has.
the point is that he *did* hit the two big passes and they did lead to points and a big lead and a nice victory. Honestly, how do we know mccown would have hit those passes? For all we know he chooses to dump the ball in the flat instead....after all we saw a whole hell of a lot of that in the rams game as he impressed some in here with his completion percentage....on the way to 6 pts.
How do we know McC would have had to hit those passes? Especially the 2nd one as it was not a designed play. The first? Fairly likely as it was within McC's range and Benji was open enough to wait on the ball... just as he did in the actual game.
As for the Rams game... on how many of those dump offs can you swear there were receivers open further downfield? I'll spot you one...
Through one-half of O-line grading using the broadcast, so far I've seen one verifiable miss. On the 3rd down and 8 at the end of our opening, 2nd-half drive McC was flushed up and to the right. He threw short to Benji who got 4. At the top of the shot by the sideline and 1st-down marker was Barn. A completion to him looked likely and would have gotten the 1st down.
You are on your own now...
MHO it's on coaching that we got 3 holding penalties and one false start in ONE drive killers against the Rams,.
h,
Did it get ever loud enough in what looked like a half-empty dome to disrupt signal calling? Seemed like it might have in that series when we had back-to-back false starts down close to our own endzone, but hard to tell on TV.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
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