The Latest on "The Trade"
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My opinion is that you would do this trade. I think that the new front office and coaching staff are looking at the big picture. If you can get two first and a second for your first and BQ then you do it. You live with DA and hope he can be coached up and you draft a QB to replace him NEXT season if you need too.
This is a deep draft at many positions, QB is not one of them. You are not going to trade BQ and draft a QB this year. You draft OL and defense, try and sign a few serviceable receivers in the FA market and go from there. If needed then you try and pick up a QB in next seasons draft when there will be many more quality QBs to choose from.
And as far as what has been offered for either BQ or DA there is no real proof other than rumor for what has ever been offered. We don't know if the Vikings really offered two first for BQ and we don't know if Dallas offered a 1st and 2nd for DA. And even if both situations are true, that was a different front office. That was a different coaching staff.
This coaching staff wants to build the team from the ground up. I don't get why people think that because BQ had a very good game against a HORRIBLE Denver defense that that makes him an automatic star in the league. Yes he hurt himself and had two poor games after that. Give him the benefit of the doubt and start him. But if you can get value in a deep draft and you as a coaching staff are not sold on him then you pull the trigger.
And Lum, please just post your opinion on this trade and make it constructive. This trade is not about DA, it is about BQ. Really the Browns could go sign a QB to fill in for a year and trade both DA and BQ and try and get a franchise QB next year. There is nothing to say that the Browns would not trade both of them.
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nmills said:
It doesnt matter that the previous FO is gone, Minnesota's FO is still there and there the one's that offered it. You think Kokinis doesnt no what Minnesota offered the previous regime.While he might know what was offered, *knowing* and *caring* are two entirely different things.
Quinn MIGHT have been worth two first rounders to Minnesota. That was last year. It appears his worth is much less at the present, which is all that matters. It doesn't matter that your house was 'worth' $500,000 last year. This year, someone will only give you $300,000 making that it's value.
Kokinis and Mangini have no loyalties to any of these players. IF they can get what they fell is fair value that will help the team more than keeping the player, they will do it. It doesn't matter what may or may not have been offered in the past.
While he might know what was offered, *knowing* and *caring* are two entirely different things.
Quinn MIGHT have been worth two first rounders to Minnesota. That was last year. It appears his worth is much less at the present, which is all that matters. It doesn't matter that your house was 'worth' $500,000 last year. This year, someone will only give you $300,000 making that it's value.
Kokinis and Mangini have no loyalties to any of these players. IF they can get what they fell is fair value that will help the team more than keeping the player, they will do it. It doesn't matter what may or may not have been offered in the past.
It was like 4-5 months ago
If you have a house thats was worth 500,000 last year and your only getting 300,000 dollar offers this year you'd be a complete idiot to sell it. But I dont think thats a very good comparison.
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And if the old front office was willing to accept a mid 1st and a 2nd or 3rd round pick for BQ he would have been gone along time ago. That has nothing to do with what the new front office will do.
I had a friend that would not sell her tech stock at 110. I sold mine, stock dropped to 25 in less than 6 months. She still did not sell because she was much like you, its value is 110 I am not selling at 25. Now it is worthless. Not exactly the same thing but I think you get my point. Kind of like the house situation posted above.
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While he might know what was offered, *knowing* and *caring* are two entirely different things.
Quinn MIGHT have been worth two first rounders to Minnesota. That was last year. It appears his worth is much less at the present, which is all that matters. It doesn't matter that your house was 'worth' $500,000 last year. This year, someone will only give you $300,000 making that it's value.
Kokinis and Mangini have no loyalties to any of these players. IF they can get what they fell is fair value that will help the team more than keeping the player, they will do it. It doesn't matter what may or may not have been offered in the past.
It was like 4-5 months ago
If you have a house thats was worth 500,000 last year and your only getting 300,000 dollar offers this year you'd be a complete idiot to sell it. But I dont think thats a very good comparison.
nmills said:
It was like 4-5 months agoIf you have a house thats was worth 500,000 last year and your only getting 300,000 dollar offers this year you'd be a complete idiot to sell it. But I dont think thats a very good comparison.
That doesn't change what it's true (current) value is. What it used to be doesn't matter. It is worth what someone will give you for it. You can speculate what it will be worth in the future, but if no one else projects the same, you end up holding an asset that isn't worth as much as you think it is. At the time, to Minnesota, Quinn may have been worth two 1st rounders. No one else offered two first rounders, and now it appears Minnesota doesn't need him that badly either. So, he isn't worth 2 1st rounders AT PRESENT.
Is keeping Quinn (or Anderson) going to give us greater returns than getting draft picks or other players for them.
I *personally* don't know. I just know that's how the decisions are made.
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And if the old front office was willing to accept a mid 1st and a 2nd or 3rd round pick for BQ he would have been gone along time ago. That has nothing to do with what the new front office will do.
I had a friend that would not sell her tech stock at 110. I sold mine, stock dropped to 25 in less than 6 months. She still did not sell because she was much like you, its value is 110 I am not selling at 25. Now it is worthless. Not exactly the same thing but I think you get my point. Kind of like the house situation posted above.
And if the old front office was willing to accept a mid 1st and a 2nd or 3rd round pick for BQ he would have been gone along time ago. That has nothing to do with what the new front office will do.
I had a friend that would not sell her tech stock at 110. I sold mine, stock dropped to 25 in less than 6 months. She still did not sell because she was much like you, its value is 110 I am not selling at 25. Now it is worthless. Not exactly the same thing but I think you get my point. Kind of like the house situation posted above.
I was talking about the new front office when I said if they we willing to part with Quinn and a 2nd for a Mid 1st that it would already have been done.
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nmills said:
so thats a yeaIf the Browns were willing to accept a mid first for Quinn and a 2nd or 3rd I GUARANTEE he would have been gone along time ago.
What has Quinn done in the NFL?
Cutler is the proven QB here and they are willing to trade him for draft picks and Brady Quinn
The Broncos receive: #5 pick in 2009 draft, Jets 2nd round pick 2009 draft and Brady Quinn
The Browns receive: #12 picks in 2009 draft, #17 pick in 2009 draft and maybe a 4th round pick in 2009 draft
The Jets receive: A starting quarterback they need to replace Farve and trade draft choices
The Browns now don't have to pay a #5 draft choice the money that comes with that pick and they pickup a 1st round choice, now we have 2 1st round picks and 2 second round picks and still have Derek Anderson as a stop gap quarterback if we draft another QB
The Browns have traded Brady Quinn who has had ONE GOOD GAME in the NFL against a very poor defense and the #5 pick in the draft and now have 2-1st round picks in this draft. I don't see how you can't see this trade helps the Browns long term
I ask you again whats Brady Quinn done in the NFL........You are acting like we should get 2..1st round picks for a guy that is unproven and done nothing in the NFL.
This would be a GREAT DEAL for the Jets as they are only giving up 3 draft choices for a FRANCHISE QB, the Broncos get good return they get a QB in Quinn, the #5 pick in the draft and a 2nd round pick from the Jets. they are able to trade Cutler replace him with Quinn and move up 7 slots in the draft and pickup a 2nd round draft choice.
The Browns want and need draft choices now we have a chance to get 4 of the top 60 players in the draft which can fill 4 holes we need filled or fill 3 holes and draft the QB that Mangini wants
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whatever you guys are obviously set in your beleives and like wise for me so will just agree to disagree and when or if something actually happens we can argue some more until then will leave it at that
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nmills said:
so thats a yeaIf the Browns were willing to accept a mid first for Quinn and a 2nd or 3rd I GUARANTEE he would have been gone along time ago.
What has Quinn done in the NFL?
Cutler is the proven QB here and they are willing to trade him for draft picks and Brady Quinn
The Broncos receive: #5 pick in 2009 draft, Jets 2nd round pick 2009 draft and Brady Quinn
The Browns receive: #12 picks in 2009 draft, #17 pick in 2009 draft and maybe a 4th round pick in 2009 draft
The Jets receive: A starting quarterback they need to replace Farve and trade draft choices
The Browns now don't have to pay a #5 draft choice the money that comes with that pick and they pickup a 1st round choice, now we have 2 1st round picks and 2 second round picks and still have Derek Anderson as a stop gap quarterback if we draft another QB
The Browns have traded Brady Quinn who has had ONE GOOD GAME in the NFL against a very poor defense and the #5 pick in the draft and now have 2-1st round picks in this draft. I don't see how you can't see this trade helps the Browns long term
I ask you again whats Brady Quinn done in the NFL........You are acting like we should get 2..1st round picks for a guy that is unproven and done nothing in the NFL.
This would be a GREAT DEAL for the Jets as they are only giving up 3 draft choices for a FRANCHISE QB, the Broncos get good return they get a QB in Quinn, the #5 pick in the draft and a 2nd round pick from the Jets. they are able to trade Cutler replace him with Quinn and move up 7 slots in the draft and pickup a 2nd round draft choice.
The Browns want and need draft choices now we have a chance to get 4 of the top 60 players in the draft which can fill 4 holes we need filled or fill 3 holes and draft the QB that Mangini wants
Cutler is the proven QB here and they are willing to trade him for draft picks and Brady Quinn
really? i know he has the yards to back this up but look at his record as a starter is 17-20. he's below .500. he also has never been to the playoffs. i know that he can't control what happens on defense, but if he really was elite, he would have at least an above .500 record or a playoff appearance. i'm also not sold on his abilities late in the game. if it weren't for a blown call by ed hochuli then the broncos would have lost that first game against the chargers because cutler got happy feet and dropped the ball.
once a fan, always a fan. married to a steeler fan. aaaaaaaaah! --andy -
whatever you guys are obviously set in your beleives and like wise for me so will just agree to disagree and when or if something actually happens we can argue some more until then will leave it at that
nmills said:
whatever you guys are obviously set in your beleives and like wise for me so will just agree to disagree and when or if something actually happens we can argue some more until then will leave it at thatI think Quinn will be good and it would be foolish to give him up for anything less than a surefire contributor. It's hard to underestimate the effect a good QB will have on the entire team. I have hope he will be good but that is really only based on what I've seen him do in a very limited starting scenario (and what he says). I'm certainly no NFL talent evaluator, although I can't be as bad as many of the so-called 'experts' (Phil/RAC!)
BUT it's just as speculative as taking draft picks for him, all of which may be busts and therefore wasted picks.
I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.
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nmills said:
whatever you guys are obviously set in your beleives and like wise for me so will just agree to disagree and when or if something actually happens we can argue some more until then will leave it at thatI think Quinn will be good and it would be foolish to give him up for anything less than a surefire contributor. It's hard to underestimate the effect a good QB will have on the entire team. I have hope he will be good but that is really only based on what I've seen him do in a very limited starting scenario (and what he says). I'm certainly no NFL talent evaluator, although I can't be as bad as many of the so-called 'experts' (Phil/RAC!)
BUT it's just as speculative as taking draft picks for him, all of which may be busts and therefore wasted picks.
I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.
I think Quinn will be good and it would be foolish to give him up for anything less than a surefire contributor. It's hard to underestimate the effect a good QB will have on the entire team. I have hope he will be good but that is really only based on what I've seen him do in a very limited starting scenario (and what he says). I'm certainly no NFL talent evaluator, although I can't be as bad as many of the so-called 'experts' (Phil/RAC!)
BUT it's just as speculative as taking draft picks for him, all of which may be busts and therefore wasted picks.
I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.
From ESPN today: Cutler's agent is talking to the Lions for the #1 pick and a later pick. They could be willing to go with Simms or a FA and draft a franchise QB for the future. Denver may work out both Sanchez and Stafford first.
No mention of Quinn or Cleveland.......................................
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I think Quinn will be good and it would be foolish to give him up for anything less than a surefire contributor. It's hard to underestimate the effect a good QB will have on the entire team. I have hope he will be good but that is really only based on what I've seen him do in a very limited starting scenario (and what he says). I'm certainly no NFL talent evaluator, although I can't be as bad as many of the so-called 'experts' (Phil/RAC!)
BUT it's just as speculative as taking draft picks for him, all of which may be busts and therefore wasted picks.
I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.
From ESPN today: Cutler's agent is talking to the Lions for the #1 pick and a later pick. They could be willing to go with Simms or a FA and draft a franchise QB for the future. Denver may work out both Sanchez and Stafford first.
No mention of Quinn or Cleveland.......................................
From ESPN today: Cutler's agent is talking to the Lions for the #1 pick and a later pick. They could be willing to go with Simms or a FA and draft a franchise QB for the future. Denver may work out both Sanchez and Stafford first.
No mention of Quinn or Cleveland.......................................
Wow - I can't imagine giving up Cutler to go with either of those guys. Of course, if the relationship is so damaged, it may not matter.
Next year looks like it will be a good QB class, so it may be wise of Denver to not draft a QB THIS year.
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No, it doesn't look bad......but I do think some of the picks might be somewhat different.
You have to put yourself in the Jets shoes and Denvers shoes and forget about the Browns for a moment. We know what we want and what would be fair.
There has to be some other picks from the Jets involved.
If Denver simply wanted Quinn, why not just come to us? They don't have to broker through NY other than we want picks, and they aren't going to give picks away to trade Cutler.
I can't believe Denver would trade Cutler to us in a straight up deal to land Quinn. Sorry folks.....Cutler is worth way more than simply Brady Quinn...fact.....bank it.
In all of this, if it pans out, the Jets are going to have to send Denver some picks....or, we are going to have to send Denver our high first rounder for their 1st rounder, and we get the Jets first rounder...and when thinking about that...that seems fair for this year.
Denver would still need something from the Jets....maybe next years first rounder and this years 2nd.
Cutler is worth more than a few picks....he will bring 3-4 picks from the Jets over time.
So, back to us.....Denver picks 12th this year.....the Jets 17th.......so, I see it we will drop to 12th with Denver getting our selection at #5, and we pick up the Jets selection at #17.
I make that move without much though and even less regret.
You never know....maybe Denver will demand more this year an we will be the ones to get future considerations.
so your ok with giving Quinn and 2nd rounder for a mid 1st.
nmills said:
so your ok with giving Quinn and 2nd rounder for a mid 1st.Geeze Mills.......no...we don't give up a 2nd.
We end up with the 12th and 17th and a 2nd or 3rd rounder....though that 2nd or 3rd might be next year depending on what else the Jets have to give to Denver for Cutler.
NY is the only team giving up picks...we gain a pick or two and swap a pick.
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Attempts: 23
Completions: 35
Pass Yds: 239
Touchdowns: 2
Interceptions: 0
Pass %: %65.7
Avg. Pass: 6.8 yds
QB Rating: 104.3
Those are Brady Quinn's stats for the first game he started in the NFL. I dont care who you are, you don't trade a Quarterback who does that in his first game on 2-days notice. Theres just too much potential to be had. Not to mention his career in a pro offense in college and how well he did there. He could potentially be one of THOSE players, you know the ones that only come around every 20 years. Plus, Im sick of my city loosing yet another future all star player to a trade... its happened too many times in the past in Cleveland sports, lets learn from our mistakes
Attempts: 33
Completions: 20
Pass Yds: 328
Touchdowns: 5
Interceptions: 1
Pass %: 60.6%
Avg. Pass: 9.9
QB Rating: 121.0
Records: Tied franchise record for TDs in a game. Most points in a game for the franchise in 18 years.
Awards: NFL Player of the Week
And those are DA's stats for the first game he was given the reigns as the guy....on 6 days notice.
But you woulda traded that in a new york minute wouldn't you.....
Oh but BQ threw 2 TDs in a loss to the Broncs at home. Wooohooo.
Attempts: 33
Completions: 20
Pass Yds: 328
Touchdowns: 5
Interceptions: 1
Pass %: 60.6%
Avg. Pass: 9.9
QB Rating: 121.0
Records: Tied franchise record for TDs in a game. Most points in a game for the franchise in 18 years.
Awards: NFL Player of the Week
And those are DA's stats for the first game he was given the reigns as the guy....on 6 days notice.
But you woulda traded that in a new york minute wouldn't you.....
Oh but BQ threw 2 TDs in a loss to the Broncs at home. Wooohooo.
Wow Lumby.... you just failed, I thought you knew a little bit more about YOUR mancrush.... DA started his first game December 7th of 2006 he started the game after charlie frye injured his wrist the previous week. His stats were as follows:
Attempts: 37
Completions: 21
Pass Yds: 276
Touchdowns: 1
Interceptions: 1
Pass %: 56.8%
Avg. Pass: 7.5
QB Rating: 78.2
OH SNAP!!!!
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Zombo said:
I understand your concern with what we paid for him, but I don't think that factors in to the new admin.They are concerned with what what he can do for us vs. what he can get for us.
What happened in the past, what we traded for him ... none of their concern.
We as fans tend to look at franchise as an ever-evolving piece of work ... but I assure you that Mangini and Kok look at it as "This is our franchise now, this is the way we are going to do things, let's see what we have in cupboard here: what can I use and what has any value?"
I like the fact, for example, that they thought Shaffer was overpaid and outright cut him ... now we have three quality guys that can start at RT for a lot less.
As for Quinn, they have nothing invested with him. They just need to decide whether he's more valuable to them in picks or performance.
Zombo
Z, great post. Thanks for the reply.
I agree totally with your analysis. Obviously for ManKok it's going to come down to pure value in the case of either BQ or DA, i.e., "who can improve this team the most, either on the field or in a trade for draft picks?"
And to be honest, I totally support that rationale, as long as they remain as cold-hearted and objective when it comes to their own FAs/draft picks as they have been with Phil's. If it's about improving the team, then I'm all for it.
As John layed out in his draft pick scenario, it would be hard to refuse 5 Day One picks. With that much young talent, you figure we'll play just about anyone for a year because everyone's learning and building the foundation together this year anyway. It would also set us up to look for our next franchise QB in 2010 or 2011.
The thing I can't get away from though is that nagging fear that we'd be letting BQ go without even a look. It's UNLIKELY he'll be all that great, but man, can't you just see him going to Denver and becoming something special there? Wouldn't that just be the way it would go given our last three decades of football fortune?
That's that nagging sick feeling in all of our guts that guys like Lum don't get. We are terrified of letting BQ go because of what he might be and it would be just like us to let the next Peyton Manning go for the next Vernon Gholston...
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Oh, and ironically, the value argument was the exact argument I used last year for trading DA while his value was highest. Buy low, sell high.
At the time my thought was we had BQ and BQ plus 2 Day One picks was greater than DA and BQ.
The irony is that now we are saying that DA plus 2 Day One picks is greater than DA and BQ.
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From Terry Pluto:
1. While some fans gnash their teeth and wish evil things for coach Eric Mangini every time a Brady Quinn rumor is floated, the Browns have a much bigger problem than trying to figure out who should be their quarterback next season. That's because I believe it will be Quinn, and everything else is posturing to increase the possible trade value of Derek Anderson.
I'm sure Lum has a source to refute Pluto's view and debunk him as a complete sports reporting hack.
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From Terry Pluto:
1. While some fans gnash their teeth and wish evil things for coach Eric Mangini every time a Brady Quinn rumor is floated, the Browns have a much bigger problem than trying to figure out who should be their quarterback next season. That's because I believe it will be Quinn, and everything else is posturing to increase the possible trade value of Derek Anderson.
I'm sure Lum has a source to refute Pluto's view and debunk him as a complete sports reporting hack.
From Terry Pluto:
I'm sure Lum has a source to refute Pluto's view and debunk him as a complete sports reporting hack.
I don't see how floating Quinn rumors would increase Anderson's value??
I understand how us acting like we want to keep Anderson might do that, but I think it would be easy enough for other teams to say ok.....let's talk Quinn.
As much as would like to think it so.....other teams aren't run by fools who would trade a Mickey Mantle card for Elroy Face and Ted Abernathy cards.
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What is there to say about Pluto? It is his opinion, I can disagree with his opinion but I can't say he is right or wrong until the season starts. You don't have to pull up articles or other peoples opinions to say if Pluto is talking out his ass or not. Until somebody that works for the Browns says something then everything is just an opinion and conjecture.
And Dam, you are right if the Browns were offered two first day picks for DA last season they should have pulled the trigger. Just like they should this year for BQ. But, I do not think that the Browns will trade BQ and I do think he will start the season at QB.
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Cutler is the proven QB here and they are willing to trade him for draft picks and Brady Quinn
really? i know he has the yards to back this up but look at his record as a starter is 17-20. he's below .500. he also has never been to the playoffs. i know that he can't control what happens on defense, but if he really was elite, he would have at least an above .500 record or a playoff appearance. i'm also not sold on his abilities late in the game. if it weren't for a blown call by ed hochuli then the broncos would have lost that first game against the chargers because cutler got happy feet and dropped the ball.
really? i know he has the yards to back this up but look at his record as a starter is 17-20. he's below .500. he also has never been to the playoffs. i know that he can't control what happens on defense, but if he really was elite, he would have at least an above .500 record or a playoff appearance. i'm also not sold on his abilities late in the game. if it weren't for a blown call by ed hochuli then the broncos would have lost that first game against the chargers because cutler got happy feet and dropped the ball.
I'm not a Cutler fan but at the same time you can't lay this 17-20 record on him. You are right in that he can't control what happens on Defense and that was the cause of the Bronco's woes. They are absolutely awful.
The one thing Cutler can control is the offensive numbers and as a team they were really good. At one time the were in the top 5 in overall offense. I'm unsure where they ended up.
It's just not fair to say he's not elite becasue they are not over .500. But don't get me wrong. I want nothing to do with the guy.
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That was my point, cmac, if you took a second to think about it. There's nothing at all that can be drawn from any of this crap until one of the QB's is dealt or we keep 'em both.
Pluto's pretty well respected. His opinion is we'll go with Quinn. It simply points out that these things can be intrepreted any way you wish.
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