Jonathan Paul Manziel
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I just don't get why people are willing to give the coaching staff all the time in the world, but aren't willing to let a young QB play out a 2-7 season
i'm for both giving pettine and manziel (and the GM and rest of staff) a fair shot. but don't come crying when one or all are gone at the end of the season. if he get's the shot and shits the bed then bye bye. same goes with coaching staff. show improvement. that's all i'm asking for with all of these dopes.
i'm for both giving pettine and manziel (and the GM and rest of staff) a fair shot. but don't come crying when one or all are gone at the end of the season. if he get's the shot and shits the bed then bye bye. same goes with coaching staff. show improvement. that's all i'm asking for with all of these dopes.
I agree, but you have to define improvement.
Improvement from Pettine would be to
A) part ways with good pal Oneil, and take over the defense . . . Like yesterday
make adjustments in scheme to better suit his players, on both sides of the ball. This includes finding middle ground with Johnny. He's not gonna succeed if forced to be a pocket passer, but he also can't be running all over the field like his hair's on fire every time there's some pressure either. But he's got to find a way to live with Johnny being Johnny . . . Even pocket passers throw ints and fumble Mike. C) find your guys and stick with them. I liked that he stuck with Crowell for the heavy lifting and used Johnson as a complimentary back. The constant shuffling of the D line is really starting to piss me off mainly because I don't see it doing any fucking good.
Improvement from Johnny is pretty self explanatory
A) continue to show an understanding of the offense. Even the most adamant anti Manziel person has to at least admit he was worlds away from what we saw last year. Keep it up and keep learning.
use the run effectively. I thought he showed a lot of improvement here. Didn't take off at the first sign of pressure but instead stepped up in the pocket a few times or moved around without completely bolting. When he did leave the pocket I thought that it was mostly warranted, and he did a lot better job of keeping his eyes down field and was looking to pass rather than run. Again keep improving on these things. C) stay off the radar off the field . . . No fucking excuses.
Improvement from farmer . . . I really don't know how to evaluate this guy yet.
A) I will say his complete lack of understanding that offensive playmakers are indeed necessary is very troubling. Pick up some legit offensive threats one way or another.
One thing I think is that he and Pettine need to get on the same page. There seems to be a lot of ego going on and they're needs to be some compromise from both sides. Ask congress how well things go when two parties just bash their heads together over and over. So do us all a favor and stop being an egomaniac . . . Start by admitting that Bowe was a complete fuck up. Haslam . . . Keep yourself (and Scheiner) out of football operations for the next two years and just sign the damn checks.
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Shit is disgusting how people already calling Manziel a back up at best. 5 career starts. Not 5 starts in a row. Just 5 when starters went down. He plays a 7-0 team that McCown probably would have had a tough time with as well... with Hartline and Hawkins out which are both starting receivers. Bowe is garbage. Cut him. Benjamin and Barnidge are his only legit catchers. Crowell had a legit game. And Duke is becoming a playmaker. Defense is depleted. I'm just saying after this game is when you wanna just hang it up. Ridiculous. If Manziel gets one year as starter he'd win more then a couple of games. All this ballwashing for McCown. He's literally a career backup at best. He had one good season. Don't get me wrong he's done great. I didn't think he would do this well. But he's a career back up. And we know that. Manziel didn't lose that game on his own.
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Zombo said:
No you don't.
You play your best QB.
You guys will see this better when you stop thinking of Johnny as a first round pick and start thinking of him as a career backup.
We don't "have to" play him. He's not that special. I think the staff knows that. I think people around the league now that.
Zombo
Lol @ 9-7. I appreciate you believing in our team but dude, we're not winning out with either qb. If they actually want to give Johnny a chance to develop, they'll give him the rest of the season. If they wanna give up on him after 5 games, then they'll put Josh back in. I'm not a fanboy either, I'd rather have a true pocket passer as our qb of the future, but let's at least give manziel a chance before we move on
Lol @ 9-7. I appreciate you believing in our team but dude, we're not winning out with either qb. If they actually want to give Johnny a chance to develop, they'll give him the rest of the season. If they wanna give up on him after 5 games, then they'll put Josh back in. I'm not a fanboy either, I'd rather have a true pocket passer as our qb of the future, but let's at least give manziel a chance before we move on
This.
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Pettine would still be rolling with Matt Flynn over Russell Wilson if he was in Seattle.
I must have missed all those games Wilson has been IA for the Seahawks....
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Pettine would still be rolling with Matt Flynn over Russell Wilson if he was in Seattle.
I must have missed all those games Wilson has been IA for the Seahawks....
Pettine would still be rolling with Matt Flynn over Russell Wilson if he was in Seattle.
I must have missed all those games Wilson has been IA for the Seahawks....
Are you saying Manziel is as good as Wilson???......seriously???......or that they even have the same game?
I dont know for sure, but Id bet the Pettine would leave skid marks rushing to make that trade, if offered the chance ....
I must have missed all those games where Manziel was IA for the Browns......
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london is pissed cuz he had to drink cold beer for the week he was here in the states........not that piss trench euro temp stuff that makes men kill each other at the soccer stadiums over.
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Pettine would still be rolling with Matt Flynn over Russell Wilson if he was in Seattle.
I must have missed all those games Wilson has been IA for the Seahawks....
Are you saying Manziel is as good as Wilson???......seriously???......or that they even have the same game?
I dont know for sure, but Id bet the Pettine would leave skid marks rushing to make that trade, if offered the chance ....
I must have missed all those games where Manziel was IA for the Browns......
Are you saying Manziel is as good as Wilson???......seriously???......or that they even have the same game?
I dont know for sure, but Id bet the Pettine would leave skid marks rushing to make that trade, if offered the chance ....
I must have missed all those games where Manziel was IA for the Browns......
None of us have absolutely any idea if he CAN be as good. What the Browns are doing is not playing to his strengths, I didn't want us to draft Johnny but they did so what they're doing trying to make a short QB stay in the pocket and throw yo short receivers is beyond what I can comprehend.
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london is pissed cuz he had to drink cold beer for the week he was here in the states........not that piss trench euro temp stuff that makes men kill each other at the soccer stadiums over.
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Zombo said:
No you don't.
You play your best QB.
You guys will see this better when you stop thinking of Johnny as a first round pick and start thinking of him as a career backup.
We don't "have to" play him. He's not that special. I think the staff knows that. I think people around the league now that.
Zombo
Lol @ 9-7. I appreciate you believing in our team but dude, we're not winning out with either qb. If they actually want to give Johnny a chance to develop, they'll give him the rest of the season. If they wanna give up on him after 5 games, then they'll put Josh back in. I'm not a fanboy either, I'd rather have a true pocket passer as our qb of the future, but let's at least give manziel a chance before we move on
Lol @ 9-7. I appreciate you believing in our team but dude, we're not winning out with either qb. If they actually want to give Johnny a chance to develop, they'll give him the rest of the season. If they wanna give up on him after 5 games, then they'll put Josh back in. I'm not a fanboy either, I'd rather have a true pocket passer as our qb of the future, but let's at least give manziel a chance before we move on
He's not that special.
He was highly overdrafted, lacks NFL body, NFL strength and NFL mechanics.
He is not worth the time to develop as a starter.
We can get 2 or 3 years out of McCown and keep searching for our starter of the future.
Manziel ain't it.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, he is nothing special at the NFL level and never will be.
He is just a guy. Like Colt McCoy is just a guy. Except Colt is taller and can operate in the pocket better and keeps his nose clean.
Z
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Pettine would still be rolling with Matt Flynn over Russell Wilson if he was in Seattle.
I must have missed all those games Wilson has been IA for the Seahawks....
Are you saying Manziel is as good as Wilson???......seriously???......or that they even have the same game?
I dont know for sure, but Id bet the Pettine would leave skid marks rushing to make that trade, if offered the chance ....
I must have missed all those games where Manziel was IA for the Browns......
Are you saying Manziel is as good as Wilson???......seriously???......or that they even have the same game?
I dont know for sure, but Id bet the Pettine would leave skid marks rushing to make that trade, if offered the chance ....
I must have missed all those games where Manziel was IA for the Browns......
no, thats not at all what he said. He said Pettine would have never played Wilson over Flynn in first place. He didnt say anything about Manziel and wilson's relative ability.
Im pretty skeptical that Johnny can be a *good* nfl qb. But I want to see more. I *know* mcclown can't be.
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Zombo said:
He's not that special.
He was highly overdrafted, lacks NFL body, NFL strength and NFL mechanics.
He is not worth the time to develop as a starter.
We can get 2 or 3 years out of McCown and keep searching for our starter of the future.
Manziel ain't it.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, he is nothing special at the NFL level and never will be.
He is just a guy. Like Colt McCoy is just a guy. Except Colt is taller and can operate in the pocket better and keeps his nose clean.
Z
I agree with a lot of this(Im not optimistic about Johnny because of his height and release)....except although we 'can' technically get 2 or 3(!) years out of mccown, we can also get 2 or 3 years out of Vinny testervede. Technically. But if Mcclown is starting games for the cleveland browns 20 starts from now or whatever that will really really really suck.
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One bright spot: Ibraheim Campbell got the start due to the DB concussion issues.. and played great. The safety position will continue to be a strength after Whitner retires (soon).
One bright spot: Ibraheim Campbell got the start due to the DB concussion issues.. and played great. The safety position will continue to be a strength after Whitner retires (soon).
Yeah I have got high hopes for Campbell, smells the ball out and looks a good tackler.
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Zombo said:
He's not that special.
He was highly overdrafted, lacks NFL body, NFL strength and NFL mechanics.
He is not worth the time to develop as a starter.
We can get 2 or 3 years out of McCown and keep searching for our starter of the future.
Manziel ain't it.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, he is nothing special at the NFL level and never will be.
He is just a guy. Like Colt McCoy is just a guy. Except Colt is taller and can operate in the pocket better and keeps his nose clean.
Z
I agree with a lot of this(Im not optimistic about Johnny because of his height and release)....except although we 'can' technically get 2 or 3(!) years out of mccown, we can also get 2 or 3 years out of Vinny testervede. Technically. But if Mcclown is starting games for the cleveland browns 20 starts from now or whatever that will really really really suck.
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He's a career backup at best.
He sees things too late and he has no touch.
He's too damn short and useless in the pocket.
Start McCown, he's better.
Z
Zombo said:
1 He's a career backup at best.
2 He sees things too late and he has no touch.
He's too damn short and useless in the pocket.
3 Start McCown, he's better.
Z
1& 2 you talking about McCown? 3- debatable.
Zombo said:
No you don't.
You play your best QB.
You guys will see this better when you stop thinking of Johnny as a first round pick and start thinking of him as a career backup.
We don't "have to" play him. He's not that special. I think the staff knows that. I think people around the league now that.
Zombo
When you going to figure out Z that McCown's current record of 1-5, and a career 18-38 record blows dead worms? At that pace, by all means, keep trotting him out so he can go 2-10. And I'm dead serious about that. I'm not putting all the onus of those losses on Josh, but I said elsewhere he doesn't pass the eye test of being a guy who can win games consistently. At this point- it doesn't matter who plays qb for the Browns- as they're just flat out not good enough. Manziel has room to improve- McCown is what he is- a 36 year old backup qb, that happens to be efficient in losing games. Pettine has to figure out he has to play to his qbs strengths- Manziel will never be a pure pocket passer- so when in the second half Mike forced him to do so- he got killed. Way to go Mike.
Josh mccown standing in the pocket is a good way to settle it because there's a good chance josh mccown will die.
Josh McCown starting against the Bengals would have been a very short experiment. They would have carted him off the field before the first quarter was over. The Bungle pass rush was fierce. Didn't I note McCown is the worst qb in the NFL in taking sacks? Duly note that Z if you want to keep playing McCown- he's a hit or two away from winding up on season ending IR.
Dalton looked good last night because they didn't ask him to do anything besides hand off, throw quick slants, and pick up a few yards when it all fell apart. Sadly, that's all it took to beat us.
And around three TD passes to a wide open Eiffert- that our guys couldn't cover.
Let me add a special demerit to our #94 on defense for getting a taunting penalty, and then lined up offsides, gifting the Bengals a TD. Way to go.
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Zombo said:
1 He's a career backup at best.
2 He sees things too late and he has no touch.
He's too damn short and useless in the pocket.
3 Start McCown, he's better.
Z
1& 2 you talking about McCown? 3- debatable.
Zombo said:
No you don't.
You play your best QB.
You guys will see this better when you stop thinking of Johnny as a first round pick and start thinking of him as a career backup.
We don't "have to" play him. He's not that special. I think the staff knows that. I think people around the league now that.
Zombo
When you going to figure out Z that McCown's current record of 1-5, and a career 18-38 record blows dead worms? At that pace, by all means, keep trotting him out so he can go 2-10. And I'm dead serious about that. I'm not putting all the onus of those losses on Josh, but I said elsewhere he doesn't pass the eye test of being a guy who can win games consistently. At this point- it doesn't matter who plays qb for the Browns- as they're just flat out not good enough. Manziel has room to improve- McCown is what he is- a 36 year old backup qb, that happens to be efficient in losing games. Pettine has to figure out he has to play to his qbs strengths- Manziel will never be a pure pocket passer- so when in the second half Mike forced him to do so- he got killed. Way to go Mike.
Josh mccown standing in the pocket is a good way to settle it because there's a good chance josh mccown will die.
Josh McCown starting against the Bengals would have been a very short experiment. They would have carted him off the field before the first quarter was over. The Bungle pass rush was fierce. Didn't I note McCown is the worst qb in the NFL in taking sacks? Duly note that Z if you want to keep playing McCown- he's a hit or two away from winding up on season ending IR.
Dalton looked good last night because they didn't ask him to do anything besides hand off, throw quick slants, and pick up a few yards when it all fell apart. Sadly, that's all it took to beat us.
And around three TD passes to a wide open Eiffert- that our guys couldn't cover.
Let me add a special demerit to our #94 on defense for getting a taunting penalty, and then lined up offsides, gifting the Bengals a TD. Way to go.
When you going to figure out Z that McCown's current record of 1-5, and a career 18-38 record blows dead worms? At that pace, by all means, keep trotting him out so he can go 2-10. And I'm dead serious about that. I'm not putting all the onus of those losses on Josh, but I said elsewhere he doesn't pass the eye test of being a guy who can win games consistently. At this point- it doesn't matter who plays qb for the Browns- as they're just flat out not good enough. Manziel has room to improve- McCown is what he is- a 36 year old backup qb, that happens to be efficient in losing games. Pettine has to figure out he has to play to his qbs strengths- Manziel will never be a pure pocket passer- so when in the second half Mike forced him to do so- he got killed. Way to go Mike.
Josh McCown starting against the Bengals would have been a very short experiment. They would have carted him off the field before the first quarter was over. The Bungle pass rush was fierce. Didn't I note McCown is the worst qb in the NFL in taking sacks? Duly note that Z if you want to keep playing McCown- he's a hit or two away from winding up on season ending IR.
Did Manziel pass that eye test last night? Because, to me, it seemed like our offense did a little better with McCown at the helm than Manziel. You put whatever players give you the best chance to win on the field - regardless of where they are from, what they did prior, or what plans you have for them.
I'm not knocking Manziel's performance in the slightest. I was wholly impressed with most of his first half, aside from some common mistakes that many rookies (because he basically still is) experience. The second half stalling can be firmly attributed to our "adjustments" by Pettine. Head scratching halftime comments that were followed by head scratching calls in the second half.
I think the video of Faulk ( I believe that's who it was) may have gotten directly to the problem - is Pettine trying to actually win games or just trying to mold Manziel into the QB he wants? If it's the former, that's a poor effort and he may be over his head. If it's the latter, that's a ticket to getting your ass shipped out of the NFL quick, fast and in a hurry.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
griffin to gruden = manziel to pettine.
easy enough to figure out right?
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The truth is that it's hard to judge Johnny based on last night. Browns were missing 6 starters, I think? Bengals look like a top-5 NFL team. The fact that Cleveland was in the game as long as they were is a miracle.
To judge any backup qb based on last night's scenario is unfair. Judge him compared to his start against cincy last year. The difference is night and day. Johnny threw accurately (at least 4 drops), scrambled for positive plays many times, threw the ball away when he needed to, had no turnovers or fumbles.
He is still 22, still learning, still getting better. Don't expect perfection, expect improvement within reason. Last night, playing a really good team with so many good starters out, was about as good as you could expect from Johnny. To expect more from a 22-yr-old in his 5th game is unrealistic and unfair.
To base the outcome of the rest of his career on that game is dumb. He should keep starting, see how he does, get some answers now. What the hell is there to lose?
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When you going to figure out Z that McCown's current record of 1-5, and a career 18-38 record blows dead worms? At that pace, by all means, keep trotting him out so he can go 2-10. And I'm dead serious about that. I'm not putting all the onus of those losses on Josh, but I said elsewhere he doesn't pass the eye test of being a guy who can win games consistently. At this point- it doesn't matter who plays qb for the Browns- as they're just flat out not good enough. Manziel has room to improve- McCown is what he is- a 36 year old backup qb, that happens to be efficient in losing games. Pettine has to figure out he has to play to his qbs strengths- Manziel will never be a pure pocket passer- so when in the second half Mike forced him to do so- he got killed. Way to go Mike.
Josh McCown starting against the Bengals would have been a very short experiment. They would have carted him off the field before the first quarter was over. The Bungle pass rush was fierce. Didn't I note McCown is the worst qb in the NFL in taking sacks? Duly note that Z if you want to keep playing McCown- he's a hit or two away from winding up on season ending IR.
Did Manziel pass that eye test last night? Because, to me, it seemed like our offense did a little better with McCown at the helm than Manziel. You put whatever players give you the best chance to win on the field - regardless of where they are from, what they did prior, or what plans you have for them.
I'm not knocking Manziel's performance in the slightest. I was wholly impressed with most of his first half, aside from some common mistakes that many rookies (because he basically still is) experience. The second half stalling can be firmly attributed to our "adjustments" by Pettine. Head scratching halftime comments that were followed by head scratching calls in the second half.
I think the video of Faulk ( I believe that's who it was) may have gotten directly to the problem - is Pettine trying to actually win games or just trying to mold Manziel into the QB he wants? If it's the former, that's a poor effort and he may be over his head. If it's the latter, that's a ticket to getting your ass shipped out of the NFL quick, fast and in a hurry.
Did Manziel pass that eye test last night? Because, to me, it seemed like our offense did a little better with McCown at the helm than Manziel. You put whatever players give you the best chance to win on the field - regardless of where they are from, what they did prior, or what plans you have for them.
I'm not knocking Manziel's performance in the slightest. I was wholly impressed with most of his first half, aside from some common mistakes that many rookies (because he basically still is) experience. The second half stalling can be firmly attributed to our "adjustments" by Pettine. Head scratching halftime comments that were followed by head scratching calls in the second half.
I think the video of Faulk ( I believe that's who it was) may have gotten directly to the problem - is Pettine trying to actually win games or just trying to mold Manziel into the QB he wants? If it's the former, that's a poor effort and he may be over his head. If it's the latter, that's a ticket to getting your ass shipped out of the NFL quick, fast and in a hurry.
I think Johnny certainly passed my "eye test" at least in the first half. I'd have to go back and see how many passes that hit receivers in the hands got dropped. We were playing an undefeated team on the road after all. He flat out has better escapability than McCown- I honestly believe with the pressure the Bengal D was putting on the pocket, McCown wouldn't have lasted out the game intact. BTW, special congrats to #94 Starks for almost single-handedly gifting the Bengals a TD.
Though I disagree with Z about Manziel's ceiling, let's say he's right, he's a career backup. We have two that aren't starter material then. Does it really matter at this point 2-7 which one plays? We're going to have a top 10 pick in 2016- guaranteed, and I'll take all comers in betting on that one. So we had damn better figure out if there's enough potential in Johnny to not take yet another qb in that draft. Josh McCown is not the answer in 2016- and I've come to the conclusion trotting him out there to take another pounding isn't the answer in the final 7 games this year either. Manziel isn't going to learn anything holding a clipboard watching Josh get the crap beat out of him.
This from NFL.com
"That's a nice sentiment (playing McCown) when you're a franchise that is either an established winner or on the rise. It doesn't make much sense when you're a team that selected Manziel in the first round of last year's draft and has started him in all of four games now. McCown has been a nice story in Cleveland, as he has put up solid numbers (11 touchdowns and four interceptions) for a last-place team. The reality, however, is that he's a 36-year-old journeyman who is never going to help the Browns be anything more than what they are today."
Need I mention at this point Haslam's silence is deafening? I have to wonder what he's thinking about this current shit show.
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The truth is that it's hard to judge Johnny based on last night. Browns were missing 6 starters, I think? Bengals look like a top-5 NFL team. The fact that Cleveland was in the game as long as they were is a miracle.
To judge any backup qb based on last night's scenario is unfair. Judge him compared to his start against cincy last year. The difference is night and day. Johnny threw accurately (at least 4 drops), scrambled for positive plays many times, threw the ball away when he needed to, had no turnovers or fumbles.
He is still 22, still learning, still getting better. Don't expect perfection, expect improvement within reason. Last night, playing a really good team with so many good starters out, was about as good as you could expect from Johnny. To expect more from a 22-yr-old in his 5th game is unrealistic and unfair.
To base the outcome of the rest of his career on that game is dumb. He should keep starting, see how he does, get some answers now. What the hell is there to lose?
The truth is that it's hard to judge Johnny based on last night. Browns were missing 6 starters, I think? Bengals look like a top-5 NFL team. The fact that Cleveland was in the game as long as they were is a miracle.
To judge any backup qb based on last night's scenario is unfair. Judge him compared to his start against cincy last year. The difference is night and day. Johnny threw accurately (at least 4 drops), scrambled for positive plays many times, threw the ball away when he needed to, had no turnovers or fumbles.
He is still 22, still learning, still getting better. Don't expect perfection, expect improvement within reason. Last night, playing a really good team with so many good starters out, was about as good as you could expect from Johnny. To expect more from a 22-yr-old in his 5th game is unrealistic and unfair.
To base the outcome of the rest of his career on that game is dumb. He should keep starting, see how he does, get some answers now. What the hell is there to lose?
It wasn't unfair and there's no excuses.
Whoever the starting quarterback is, whether McCown or Manziel, are subject to the same level of evaluation and scrutiny.
I'm in favor of evaluating Manziel for the back 7 though, that'll give us more than enough to know who we have.
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The truth is that it's hard to judge Johnny based on last night. Browns were missing 6 starters, I think? Bengals look like a top-5 NFL team. The fact that Cleveland was in the game as long as they were is a miracle.
To judge any backup qb based on last night's scenario is unfair. Judge him compared to his start against cincy last year. The difference is night and day. Johnny threw accurately (at least 4 drops), scrambled for positive plays many times, threw the ball away when he needed to, had no turnovers or fumbles.
He is still 22, still learning, still getting better. Don't expect perfection, expect improvement within reason. Last night, playing a really good team with so many good starters out, was about as good as you could expect from Johnny. To expect more from a 22-yr-old in his 5th game is unrealistic and unfair.
To base the outcome of the rest of his career on that game is dumb. He should keep starting, see how he does, get some answers now. What the hell is there to lose?
It wasn't unfair and there's no excuses.
Whoever the starting quarterback is, whether McCown or Manziel, are subject to the same level of evaluation and scrutiny.
I'm in favor of evaluating Manziel for the back 7 though, that'll give us more than enough to know who we have.
I'm in favor of evaluating Manziel for the back 7 though, that'll give us more than enough to know who we have.
Agreed....Im pretty certain he is NOT the guy....but the season is shot, so lets end the Johnny back-up era once and for all....
Start him the rest of the way and then make a decision...yes or no.... because it would be REALLY BAD to let this garbage spill into yet another season.....
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