Jonathan Paul Manziel
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You are right Flugel. I'll admit it, we are seeing the beginning of a hall-of-fame career for Johnny Manziel. After all, most, if not all. hall-of-fame QB's struggled in their first starts.
Let's face it, we were able to draft this future HOF QB at what, #22. Which means that the Browns were the only team needing a franchise QB that thought Manziel was the answer. Anybody could have had him before #22 so that is not a ridiculous statement. It as said on another thread, but once we drop the "1st round draft pick" from our thinking, this whole process will go a lot better.
Tell me something. Besides obviously Brian Hoyer, which starting QB's in the NFL today would you NOT trade straight up for Johnny right now? If that is not a VERY long list, you may want to rethink your position here.
You are right Flugel. I'll admit it, we are seeing the beginning of a hall-of-fame career for Johnny Manziel. After all, most, if not all. hall-of-fame QB's struggled in their first starts.
Let's face it, we were able to draft this future HOF QB at what, #22. Which means that the Browns were the only team needing a franchise QB that thought Manziel was the answer. Anybody could have had him before #22 so that is not a ridiculous statement. It as said on another thread, but once we drop the "1st round draft pick" from our thinking, this whole process will go a lot better.
Tell me something. Besides obviously Brian Hoyer, which starting QB's in the NFL today would you NOT trade straight up for Johnny right now? If that is not a VERY long list, you may want to rethink your position here.
Let me be responsible for my words but not responsible for what you cannot understand. This was my reply to the post you started with a confession you were confused:
Nope all QBs in the history of the NFL aced the gig in their very first start except:
John Elway, Steve Young, Roger Staubach, Terry Bradshaw, Brett Favre, Steve McNair, Fran Tarkenton, Kurt Warner, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Troy Aikman, Warren Moon, Phil Simms, Joe Theisman, Doug Williams, Drew Brees, Brian Sipe, Dan Fouts; but who these guys anyway?
Now you're asking me what starting QB I'd trade our 4 start old QB for? How about this one? I wouldn't draft a QB in the first round that I don't believe in. You would so you could trade him after only 4 starts? Don't I feel stupid? Do I even have to tell you I had nothing to do with the Cleveland Browns drafting a QB half those in the decision never had any intentions of starting? Try reading the flow of discussions you choose to participate in so you don't have to start off confessing you're confused.
Tell me something- how much better was Blake Bortles looking when the 24 years old was 4 NFL starts old? Jax drafted 3rd overall while Oakland drafted 4th overall in 2015 to show me both those teams with rookie QB had to endure some inevitable growing pains. Which one of those QBs would have preferred to come to Cleveland? Even better, if Derek Carr was told we don't believe in adding talented WRs like Amari Cooper or Michael Crabtree - how pumped would he be or would older brother red flag that right down to you don't want to be me? Bortles' franchise brought in 2 first round WRs. Has Allen Robinson been helpful to growth and development? How about Cooper and Crabtree?
Didn't we already bring in a 36 year old QB to make it clear that half those in charge of bringing Manziel here don't have the testicles to play the QB they chose over Carr and Bridgewater. I'm not the reason we're debating how much prettier 1-6 football looks from a 36 year old QB getting killed in the pocket every week than 1-1 football from the QB we burned a first round pick on. More specifically, I'm not your problem. It's those you're mad at for bringing him here without ever sacking up to go through the types of growing pains that had Jax drafting 3rd overall in 2015 and Oakland drafting 4th.
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Show me some numbers that disprove the theory that Manziel and Wilson aren't comparable passers.You fail to realize that these players were able to operate with efficiency behind their respective Olines.
Everyone here believes Wilson to be like Johnny. That couldn't be further from the truth. He's a passer with mobility, not a runner looking to throw.
And Ben was/is also the exact same thing. Efficient passers, yet scramblers when the need arises.
The comparison of Johnny to Fran, Wilson, Young and Ben is beyond stupid.
Vick? Sure, compare a generational athlete with a fucking gun for an arm to Manziel. You can see where the comparison falls short.
edit: That said, even Vick had times where he was functional play caller under center. So again, bullshit comparison.
While you do that, I'll leave you with this.
One of the most underrated parts of Manziel's game is his accuracy from the pocket. He led all AQ players this season with a 73.5 completion percentage from inside the pocket. He completed at least 65 percent of such passes in every game during his sophomore season except for the Aggies' loss to LSU.
Manziel was not just completing short throws as a result of Texas A&M's spread offense. One out of every four passes he attempted from the pocket traveled at least 15 yards. On such throws, Manziel completed an SEC-high 54.9 percent, more than 15 percentage points higher than the AQ average (39.5 percent).
Just like Manziel, Wilson was outstanding from the pocket during his final FBS season. Wilson led the nation with a 76.3 completion percentage from the pocket and threw only three interceptions in 224 such attempts.
One difference is Manziel had several more interceptions from inside the pocket. With the Aggies' defense ranked last in the SEC in points per game allowed, Manziel took more chances and made more big plays.
Size and measurables
Height: Since 2006, six quarterbacks have measured under 6 feet tall at the NFL combine. Wilson and Manziel were two of them.
But height has not seemed to affect their play. As noted, they were two of the top passers from the pocket, and neither player had more than three passes batted down in his final collegiate season despite playing behind offensive lines that had similar size to that of the average NFL offensive lineman (6-5, 312 pounds).
Show me some numbers that disprove the theory that Manziel and Wilson aren't comparable passers.
While you do that, I'll leave you with this.
One of the most underrated parts of Manziel's game is his accuracy from the pocket. He led all AQ players this season with a 73.5 completion percentage from inside the pocket. He completed at least 65 percent of such passes in every game during his sophomore season except for the Aggies' loss to LSU.
Manziel was not just completing short throws as a result of Texas A&M's spread offense. One out of every four passes he attempted from the pocket traveled at least 15 yards. On such throws, Manziel completed an SEC-high 54.9 percent, more than 15 percentage points higher than the AQ average (39.5 percent).
Just like Manziel, Wilson was outstanding from the pocket during his final FBS season. Wilson led the nation with a 76.3 completion percentage from the pocket and threw only three interceptions in 224 such attempts.
One difference is Manziel had several more interceptions from inside the pocket. With the Aggies' defense ranked last in the SEC in points per game allowed, Manziel took more chances and made more big plays.
Size and measurables
Height: Since 2006, six quarterbacks have measured under 6 feet tall at the NFL combine. Wilson and Manziel were two of them.
But height has not seemed to affect their play. As noted, they were two of the top passers from the pocket, and neither player had more than three passes batted down in his final collegiate season despite playing behind offensive lines that had similar size to that of the average NFL offensive lineman (6-5, 312 pounds).
So you're giving me Wilson's playing style and pro career vs..... Johnny's college days?
Ok.....
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This is what Im saying.....
Young, Ben and all the rest got good only after they learned to play from the pocket.....
And folks here are saying that Pettine and the Browns are messing JM up by doing the same.....making him learn to to play from the pocket.....and, instead, they are saying "let Johnny be Johnny and run around"......
So......is Pettine being a fool to force Johnny to learn this?.....was Walsh?.....or any of the others?
Cant have it both ways......
BINGO!
That said, SF had portions of their playbook (similar to Joe Gibbs) where their QB did pass outside of the pocket as displayed in Joe Montana's pass referred to as "The Catch." Gibbs loved to bootleg Theisman out via play action for Waggle passes. Shanny had Hoyer throwing a ton of bootleg passes out of pocket last year to the extent opponents started to wait for them ie Jax. Where Pettine is confusing many of our fans is him voicing he wants a pocket passer to the extent he's agreeing with the opposing coach that wanted Manziel in the pocket way more frequently. What coach ended up feeling better when that's exactly what happened in half 2?
One of my favorite throws on Thursday came when Manziel had all the time in the world to to survey the field at least twice before making an easy accurate completion.
Do you know what the biggest difference between our loss to Cincy and Pittsburgh's loss to Cincy was? Pittsburgh's defense only gave up 16 points in spite of Ben's 3 INTs. Our defense gave up how many points off of how many turnovers from our QB? Is this where I get yeah but Pittsburgh played an undefeated team vrs don't hand me that undefeated opponent nonsense for our QB?
BINGO!
That said, SF had portions of their playbook (similar to Joe Gibbs) where their QB did pass outside of the pocket ....Shanny had Hoyer throwing a ton of bootleg passes.... Where Pettine is confusing many of our fans is him voicing he wants a pocket passer to the extent he's agreeing with the opposing coach that wanted Manziel in the pocket way more frequently. What coach ended up feeling better when that's exactly what happened in half 2?
One of my favorite throws on Thursday came when Manziel had all the time in the world to to survey the field at least twice before making an easy accurate completion.
Our defense gave up how many points off of how many turnovers from our QB?
I agree on the play calling and wish we would see more bootlegs...ala Hoyer last year. For that to work though, they have to at least "suspect" our QB is gonna stay in the pocket. As you said, they figured the Hoyer thing out pretty quick. So Id expect the same if that is all JM does and there is no "risk" of him staying in and stepping up....
And, while Johnny has looked nice on a couple plays, where he scrambled then connected, what people are missing is what "he" is missing.....a LOT of open looks.....receivers waving their arms, BEFORE he takes off running......simple first down tosses being turned into scrambles ....and that is what coach Pettine is frustrated by.....he's not trying to hog tie Johnny....he's trying to get him to simply learn how to find the open receiver and hit him, BEFORE he takes off....
And no QB turnovers against the Bungles....only 5 consecutive 3 and outs, along with some terrible punting....which gave the Bungles the ball at mid field.....every three minutes, for the whole second half......so, while the D sputtered, in fairness, they spend the whole half on the field, against one of the best O's in the league, all the while giving them the ball at mid field and closer every time.....
I wouldn't draft a QB in the first round that I don't believe in.
Tell me something- how much better was Blake Bortles looking when the 24 years old was 4 NFL starts old? Jax drafted 3rd overall while Oakland drafted 4th overall in 2015 to show me both those teams with rookie QB had to endure some inevitable growing pains.
Even better, if Derek Carr was told we don't believe in adding talented WRs like Amari Cooper or Michael Crabtree - how pumped would he be or would older brother red flag that right down to you don't want to be me? Bortles' franchise brought in 2 first round WRs. Has Allen Robinson been helpful to growth and development? How about Cooper and Crabtree?
It's those you're mad at for bringing him here without ever sacking up to go through the types of growing pains that had Jax drafting 3rd overall in 2015 and Oakland drafting 4th.
I wouldnt draft one in the first and not play him either. Though I do wonder how much the Browns really believed in him. Considering, if you think your next QB is sitting on the board and you have a pick, do you pass on him for a CB?....NO, you dont. But If you have an "extra" pick and you've already picked the guy you wanted, then just maybe that pick is worth a gamble. Take a shot, but doesnt mean you have unabiding faith in the guy. And, then, unlike Bortles and Carr, your guy just takes the year off and then enters rehab? I can see why there is concern. After that, it becomes a unique situation and not something thats easily compared to others(Like Carr, Bortles or anybody else, ftm). And, even after rehab and considering our experiences with Josh, I can see why the team would go with the veteran.
But heres the thing. I think they need to play him now. I agree with this 100%. Seasons gone and its time to endure the pain that Jax and Oak took last year. But, he needs to show he's improving and able to play within Pettines system, like Bortles and Carr did last year. I honestly believe Johnny has a better team here, than those other 2 had, so should be able get some quality reps....and maybe even some wins.
The WR references and constant talk about how we've not draft one high really doesnt set right with me. When we drafted Johnny. Josh Gordon was coming off a record setting season and we signed 3 veteran WR's to come in and compete, with Austin ultimately winning the job. We also brought UDFA Gabriel, who ended up winning a job. I only mention that, because right now Bortles #2 guy is also a UDFA brought in at the same time. Jax did draft one WR in the first round. It was Marquise Lee, who is basically a bust so far. So, at that time, Johnny woulda been starting with Gordon and Bortles woulda been starting with Lee. And Carr got no one till year 2. Which brings me to this years draft. And the fact that the whole world pretty much agreed we needed Shelton/Defense first. Cooper woulda been gone of course. Now we COULD have drafted one with #19, but before we agree that would have worked, lets consider who was there.....here's who....no one who is playing well now. Of all the top guys available, they are all hurt or sitting or playing very limited roles. And, yes, Oakland signed Crabtree. Good move. If you recall, he was one of the last receivers signed during the FA period and not a very popular choice. And, this year, he seems revitalized. Though, who knew that was gonna happen? In a similar manner, we tapped two veteran WR's in Hartline and Bowe. And I would say they both had similar value and/or interest to Crabtree. So, we too, tried to give our QB speed, size, experience, etc.
I think we've shown a similar committent to OAK and Jax, in at least "trying" to get some WR's in here. But we also got shat upon by both Gordons problems and then Bowes failure, as well as the very QB we were hoping to develop.
Id say weve committed more to him over the last 2 years, than he probably has deserved or given back to us. And, after this, I understand the stubborness of the team in just handing things over to him.....or changing their scheme for him.....or giving up wins just to let him learn.....when he's not really showing much and is still in his first REAL season of actually trying....
So.....in summary.....I think the team tried and expected to have quality WR's here and are as committed to that as Jax or Oak were. And I think we "would have been" more committed" to playing Johnny and taking some lumps for him, if he had shown he was committed to the team. Then Josh took a drink. Johnny blew it. The other Josh took his job. And played well. And now, here we are.
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Show me some numbers that disprove the theory that Manziel and Wilson aren't comparable passers.
While you do that, I'll leave you with this.
One of the most underrated parts of Manziel's game is his accuracy from the pocket. He led all AQ players this season with a 73.5 completion percentage from inside the pocket. He completed at least 65 percent of such passes in every game during his sophomore season except for the Aggies' loss to LSU.
Manziel was not just completing short throws as a result of Texas A&M's spread offense. One out of every four passes he attempted from the pocket traveled at least 15 yards. On such throws, Manziel completed an SEC-high 54.9 percent, more than 15 percentage points higher than the AQ average (39.5 percent).
Just like Manziel, Wilson was outstanding from the pocket during his final FBS season. Wilson led the nation with a 76.3 completion percentage from the pocket and threw only three interceptions in 224 such attempts.
One difference is Manziel had several more interceptions from inside the pocket. With the Aggies' defense ranked last in the SEC in points per game allowed, Manziel took more chances and made more big plays.
Size and measurables
Height: Since 2006, six quarterbacks have measured under 6 feet tall at the NFL combine. Wilson and Manziel were two of them.
But height has not seemed to affect their play. As noted, they were two of the top passers from the pocket, and neither player had more than three passes batted down in his final collegiate season despite playing behind offensive lines that had similar size to that of the average NFL offensive lineman (6-5, 312 pounds).
So you're giving me Wilson's playing style and pro career vs..... Johnny's college days?
Ok.....
So you're giving me Wilson's playing style and pro career vs..... Johnny's college days?
Ok.....
It's Wilson's college career vs. Manziel's, because the point is that Seattle has harnessed Wilson's ability, while we have constrained Manziel's.
In no way was Wilson a legitimately better passer than Manziel in college. For every argument that Manziel can't (or wont) pass from the pocket, there's actual numbers that prove otherwise. Now Wilson is experiencing success while Manziel isn't.
Logic would then point to the utilization plan for each in the NFL, wouldn't it?
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Except, you know, Manziel is a better passer than Vick, Young and RG3. That's why we're talking about extending plays, not running the ball.
Honestly, I dont know that and dont really agree....but thats just opinion...
Personally, I never thought Vick or RGIII were very good QB's to begin with....which is a big part of my issue.....compare away all you want, but neither of them ever won anything and neither will finish being known as a great QB or anything.....
But this thread is about Pettine being a bad coach for trying to force Johnny to play from the pocket....and the ONLY point Ive tried to make is that I agree he needs to learn this and Pettine is doing the right thing by expecting him to....
And, if you think they should just let him "do his thing" without any structure....then I completely disagree......
Honestly, I dont know that and dont really agree....but thats just opinion...
Personally, I never thought Vick or RGIII were very good QB's to begin with....which is a big part of my issue.....compare away all you want, but neither of them ever won anything and neither will finish being known as a great QB or anything.....
But this thread is about Pettine being a bad coach for trying to force Johnny to play from the pocket....and the ONLY point Ive tried to make is that I agree he needs to learn this and Pettine is doing the right thing by expecting him to....
And, if you think they should just let him "do his thing" without any structure....then I completely disagree......
Au contraire, I feel the same way. However, forcing a player to play outside of his skill set is a recipe for disaster.
Johnny is not unfortunate from the pocket, he was actually rather adept from the pocket in college. But his main benefit is his improvisation. Taking that away just so he'll "learn something" shows that you aren't trying to win games - it shows you just want to prove your system is right.
Look up Zorn and the "controlled scramble" that the Seahawks implemented back in the day. It's similar to what they are running now, in that the primary objective is to complete the play as structured, but if it breaks down - you essentially revert to a second play. It's a rather ingenius system.
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So you're giving me Wilson's playing style and pro career vs..... Johnny's college days?
Ok.....
It's Wilson's college career vs. Manziel's, because the point is that Seattle has harnessed Wilson's ability, while we have constrained Manziel's.
In no way was Wilson a legitimately better passer than Manziel in college. For every argument that Manziel can't (or wont) pass from the pocket, there's actual numbers that prove otherwise. Now Wilson is experiencing success while Manziel isn't.
Logic would then point to the utilization plan for each in the NFL, wouldn't it?
It's Wilson's college career vs. Manziel's, because the point is that Seattle has harnessed Wilson's ability, while we have constrained Manziel's.
In no way was Wilson a legitimately better passer than Manziel in college. For every argument that Manziel can't (or wont) pass from the pocket, there's actual numbers that prove otherwise. Now Wilson is experiencing success while Manziel isn't.
Logic would then point to the utilization plan for each in the NFL, wouldn't it?
One HUGE fact you've failed to consider. Russell put up those stats despite playing under center, in a run oriented, pro style offense.
Meanwhile, you have A&M and Sumlin with their version of the fun n gun that's designed to just put up points playing in space.
Yes, Wilson was and is a better passer than Johnny. Made better and faster decisions within the structure of his offense. Johnny did so as well,
but how many plays did he also miss in college (some that have been pointed out on this board) that he failed to make the proper read and was bailed out by
running and timely DERPS by the defense? Quite a few.
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So you're giving me Wilson's playing style and pro career vs..... Johnny's college days?
Ok.....
It's Wilson's college career vs. Manziel's, because the point is that Seattle has harnessed Wilson's ability, while we have constrained Manziel's.
In no way was Wilson a legitimately better passer than Manziel in college. For every argument that Manziel can't (or wont) pass from the pocket, there's actual numbers that prove otherwise. Now Wilson is experiencing success while Manziel isn't.
Logic would then point to the utilization plan for each in the NFL, wouldn't it?
Logic would then point to the utilization plan for each in the NFL, wouldn't it?
I think there could be a MILLION reasons one guy does well and the other doesnt....so, no, its not the logical choice for me...
How about the possibility that Wilson see's the field better and makes better/faster decisions?...possible?....
However, forcing a player to play outside of his skill set is a recipe for disaster.
But his main benefit is his improvisation. Taking that away just so he'll "learn something" shows that you aren't trying to win games - it shows you just want to prove your system is right.
I dont think they're "forcing" him to not use his skill set....they are asking him to use it as a last resort and not rely on it. And they are trying to get him to stop running, when there is an open receiver right in front of him....
Plus...your argument is that he IS/WAS a good pocket passer in college...so, if this is true, is it not part of "his skill set"?.....and if it is, how is asking him to use it, somehow forcing him not to???.....makes NO sense....
Wilson would see those waiving arms.....or maybe even have the ball there when the receiver comes out of his break....Your comparing their #'s a lot here....the biggest difference I see is Johnny consistently hitting 55% or fewer of his passes. While Wilson hits 65% from day one....
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Flugel, you didn't answer my question. And I am well aware of the thread being discussed. And I am certainly not mad at anybody.
You are continually pointing out Johnny's impending greatness based on the stats of other QB's. I merely asked you, which of today's starting QB's, would you not trade Manziel for. In other words, have you seen something from Manziel, other than similar stats to some QB's, that would make you want to keep him over other starting QB's in the NFL? After all, the league isn't completely full of hall-of-fame caliber QB's. So, who would you keep Manziel over? I'll make it easier, let's start with who you mentioned. Would you keep Manziel over Bortles, Carr or Bridgewater?
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Flugel, you didn't answer my question. And I am well aware of the thread being discussed. And I am certainly not mad at anybody.
You are continually pointing out Johnny's impending greatness based on the stats of other QB's. I merely asked you, which of today's starting QB's, would you not trade Manziel for. In other words, have you seen something from Manziel, other than similar stats to some QB's, that would make you want to keep him over other starting QB's in the NFL? After all, the league isn't completely full of hall-of-fame caliber QB's. So, who would you keep Manziel over? I'll make it easier, let's start with who you mentioned. Would you keep Manziel over Bortles, Carr or Bridgewater?
Flugel, you didn't answer my question. And I am well aware of the thread being discussed. And I am certainly not mad at anybody.
You are continually pointing out Johnny's impending greatness based on the stats of other QB's. I merely asked you, which of today's starting QB's, would you not trade Manziel for. In other words, have you seen something from Manziel, other than similar stats to some QB's, that would make you want to keep him over other starting QB's in the NFL? After all, the league isn't completely full of hall-of-fame caliber QB's. So, who would you keep Manziel over? I'll make it easier, let's start with who you mentioned. Would you keep Manziel over Bortles, Carr or Bridgewater?
Where have I pointed out Johnny's greatness other than he's a first round draft pick by my favorite team not getting the chance to start like QBs that teams drafting after us are doing? I don't get your hatred for the QB we drafted. Is this a quit your day job opportiunity for predicting a 22 year old QB sentenced to Cleveland would struggle? How new - how original. Has that ever happened before?
Sorry, I never got the new school memo it's cool to root against the QB my favorite team drafted in round 1. You did! Congrats!
What NFL Qbs would I not trade up straight for Johnny is asking me what veterans do I prefer to Johnny like Tom Brady? Aaron Rodgers? Drew Brees? Carson Palmer? Ben Rapen? Philip Rivers? Are people allowed to bet on horse races after the race is completed with hind sight 20/20? I didn't bet on the horse here - our favorite team did so why am I more concerned the reluctance to start the first round investment to our future in season 2? You would rather be right you predicted he'd suck in a 4 start conclusion rather than seeing your favorite team investigate what they drafted. Different strokes for different folks.
As I said, I wouldn't draft a QB I don't have the nutsack to start through growing pains. Never changed that stance once.
What was your other conviction? Johnny's greatness out of me without one single cut and paste example? This isn't a high school debate team try out that rewards the biggest tricks and word surgeries. It's adult conversation you're welcome to join anytime. What else you got?
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BINGO!
That said, SF had portions of their playbook (similar to Joe Gibbs) where their QB did pass outside of the pocket ....Shanny had Hoyer throwing a ton of bootleg passes.... Where Pettine is confusing many of our fans is him voicing he wants a pocket passer to the extent he's agreeing with the opposing coach that wanted Manziel in the pocket way more frequently. What coach ended up feeling better when that's exactly what happened in half 2?
One of my favorite throws on Thursday came when Manziel had all the time in the world to to survey the field at least twice before making an easy accurate completion.
Our defense gave up how many points off of how many turnovers from our QB?
I agree on the play calling and wish we would see more bootlegs...ala Hoyer last year. For that to work though, they have to at least "suspect" our QB is gonna stay in the pocket. As you said, they figured the Hoyer thing out pretty quick. So Id expect the same if that is all JM does and there is no "risk" of him staying in and stepping up....
And, while Johnny has looked nice on a couple plays, where he scrambled then connected, what people are missing is what "he" is missing.....a LOT of open looks.....receivers waving their arms, BEFORE he takes off running......simple first down tosses being turned into scrambles ....and that is what coach Pettine is frustrated by.....he's not trying to hog tie Johnny....he's trying to get him to simply learn how to find the open receiver and hit him, BEFORE he takes off....
And no QB turnovers against the Bungles....only 5 consecutive 3 and outs, along with some terrible punting....which gave the Bungles the ball at mid field.....every three minutes, for the whole second half......so, while the D sputtered, in fairness, they spend the whole half on the field, against one of the best O's in the league, all the while giving them the ball at mid field and closer every time.....
I wouldn't draft a QB in the first round that I don't believe in.
Tell me something- how much better was Blake Bortles looking when the 24 years old was 4 NFL starts old? Jax drafted 3rd overall while Oakland drafted 4th overall in 2015 to show me both those teams with rookie QB had to endure some inevitable growing pains.
Even better, if Derek Carr was told we don't believe in adding talented WRs like Amari Cooper or Michael Crabtree - how pumped would he be or would older brother red flag that right down to you don't want to be me? Bortles' franchise brought in 2 first round WRs. Has Allen Robinson been helpful to growth and development? How about Cooper and Crabtree?
It's those you're mad at for bringing him here without ever sacking up to go through the types of growing pains that had Jax drafting 3rd overall in 2015 and Oakland drafting 4th.
I wouldnt draft one in the first and not play him either. Though I do wonder how much the Browns really believed in him. Considering, if you think your next QB is sitting on the board and you have a pick, do you pass on him for a CB?....NO, you dont. But If you have an "extra" pick and you've already picked the guy you wanted, then just maybe that pick is worth a gamble. Take a shot, but doesnt mean you have unabiding faith in the guy. And, then, unlike Bortles and Carr, your guy just takes the year off and then enters rehab? I can see why there is concern. After that, it becomes a unique situation and not something thats easily compared to others(Like Carr, Bortles or anybody else, ftm). And, even after rehab and considering our experiences with Josh, I can see why the team would go with the veteran.
But heres the thing. I think they need to play him now. I agree with this 100%. Seasons gone and its time to endure the pain that Jax and Oak took last year. But, he needs to show he's improving and able to play within Pettines system, like Bortles and Carr did last year. I honestly believe Johnny has a better team here, than those other 2 had, so should be able get some quality reps....and maybe even some wins.
The WR references and constant talk about how we've not draft one high really doesnt set right with me. When we drafted Johnny. Josh Gordon was coming off a record setting season and we signed 3 veteran WR's to come in and compete, with Austin ultimately winning the job. We also brought UDFA Gabriel, who ended up winning a job. I only mention that, because right now Bortles #2 guy is also a UDFA brought in at the same time. Jax did draft one WR in the first round. It was Marquise Lee, who is basically a bust so far. So, at that time, Johnny woulda been starting with Gordon and Bortles woulda been starting with Lee. And Carr got no one till year 2. Which brings me to this years draft. And the fact that the whole world pretty much agreed we needed Shelton/Defense first. Cooper woulda been gone of course. Now we COULD have drafted one with #19, but before we agree that would have worked, lets consider who was there.....here's who....no one who is playing well now. Of all the top guys available, they are all hurt or sitting or playing very limited roles. And, yes, Oakland signed Crabtree. Good move. If you recall, he was one of the last receivers signed during the FA period and not a very popular choice. And, this year, he seems revitalized. Though, who knew that was gonna happen? In a similar manner, we tapped two veteran WR's in Hartline and Bowe. And I would say they both had similar value and/or interest to Crabtree. So, we too, tried to give our QB speed, size, experience, etc.
I think we've shown a similar committent to OAK and Jax, in at least "trying" to get some WR's in here. But we also got shat upon by both Gordons problems and then Bowes failure, as well as the very QB we were hoping to develop.
Id say weve committed more to him over the last 2 years, than he probably has deserved or given back to us. And, after this, I understand the stubborness of the team in just handing things over to him.....or changing their scheme for him.....or giving up wins just to let him learn.....when he's not really showing much and is still in his first REAL season of actually trying....
So.....in summary.....I think the team tried and expected to have quality WR's here and are as committed to that as Jax or Oak were. And I think we "would have been" more committed" to playing Johnny and taking some lumps for him, if he had shown he was committed to the team. Then Josh took a drink. Johnny blew it. The other Josh took his job. And played well. And now, here we are.
I agree on the play calling and wish we would see more bootlegs...ala Hoyer last year. For that to work though, they have to at least "suspect" our QB is gonna stay in the pocket. As you said, they figured the Hoyer thing out pretty quick. So Id expect the same if that is all JM does and there is no "risk" of him staying in and stepping up....
And, while Johnny has looked nice on a couple plays, where he scrambled then connected, what people are missing is what "he" is missing.....a LOT of open looks.....receivers waving their arms, BEFORE he takes off running......simple first down tosses being turned into scrambles ....and that is what coach Pettine is frustrated by.....he's not trying to hog tie Johnny....he's trying to get him to simply learn how to find the open receiver and hit him, BEFORE he takes off....
And no QB turnovers against the Bungles....only 5 consecutive 3 and outs, along with some terrible punting....which gave the Bungles the ball at mid field.....every three minutes, for the whole second half......so, while the D sputtered, in fairness, they spend the whole half on the field, against one of the best O's in the league, all the while giving them the ball at mid field and closer every time.....
I wouldnt draft one in the first and not play him either. Though I do wonder how much the Browns really believed in him. Considering, if you think your next QB is sitting on the board and you have a pick, do you pass on him for a CB?....NO, you dont. But If you have an "extra" pick and you've already picked the guy you wanted, then just maybe that pick is worth a gamble. Take a shot, but doesnt mean you have unabiding faith in the guy. And, then, unlike Bortles and Carr, your guy just takes the year off and then enters rehab? I can see why there is concern. After that, it becomes a unique situation and not something thats easily compared to others(Like Carr, Bortles or anybody else, ftm). And, even after rehab and considering our experiences with Josh, I can see why the team would go with the veteran.
But heres the thing. I think they need to play him now. I agree with this 100%. Seasons gone and its time to endure the pain that Jax and Oak took last year. But, he needs to show he's improving and able to play within Pettines system, like Bortles and Carr did last year. I honestly believe Johnny has a better team here, than those other 2 had, so should be able get some quality reps....and maybe even some wins.
The WR references and constant talk about how we've not draft one high really doesnt set right with me. When we drafted Johnny. Josh Gordon was coming off a record setting season and we signed 3 veteran WR's to come in and compete, with Austin ultimately winning the job. We also brought UDFA Gabriel, who ended up winning a job. I only mention that, because right now Bortles #2 guy is also a UDFA brought in at the same time. Jax did draft one WR in the first round. It was Marquise Lee, who is basically a bust so far. So, at that time, Johnny woulda been starting with Gordon and Bortles woulda been starting with Lee. And Carr got no one till year 2. Which brings me to this years draft. And the fact that the whole world pretty much agreed we needed Shelton/Defense first. Cooper woulda been gone of course. Now we COULD have drafted one with #19, but before we agree that would have worked, lets consider who was there.....here's who....no one who is playing well now. Of all the top guys available, they are all hurt or sitting or playing very limited roles. And, yes, Oakland signed Crabtree. Good move. If you recall, he was one of the last receivers signed during the FA period and not a very popular choice. And, this year, he seems revitalized. Though, who knew that was gonna happen? In a similar manner, we tapped two veteran WR's in Hartline and Bowe. And I would say they both had similar value and/or interest to Crabtree. So, we too, tried to give our QB speed, size, experience, etc.
I think we've shown a similar committent to OAK and Jax, in at least "trying" to get some WR's in here. But we also got shat upon by both Gordons problems and then Bowes failure, as well as the very QB we were hoping to develop.
Id say weve committed more to him over the last 2 years, than he probably has deserved or given back to us. And, after this, I understand the stubborness of the team in just handing things over to him.....or changing their scheme for him.....or giving up wins just to let him learn.....when he's not really showing much and is still in his first REAL season of actually trying....
So.....in summary.....I think the team tried and expected to have quality WR's here and are as committed to that as Jax or Oak were. And I think we "would have been" more committed" to playing Johnny and taking some lumps for him, if he had shown he was committed to the team. Then Josh took a drink. Johnny blew it. The other Josh took his job. And played well. And now, here we are.
Mud, your opinion is never tough to respect. Good post. If they never believed in him why is he here? It's that simple and that wrong to carelessly flush such a pick down the toilet when we're seeing Derek Carr drafted later; and Oakland getting Amari Cooper and Micheal Crabtree instead of of bunch of lazy, half fast WR additions.
Manziel hasn't been an alter boy by any means. But at age 22, and 1 year removed from Pettine announcing as early as draft day he's our backup QB - he took starting a lot more serious as a 22 year old QB than he did as a 21 year old. People are going to see what they want to see regarding progress. There were some nice throws from the pocket and some Roethlisberger/Tarkentonesque improvises out of the pocket. Norm Van Brocklin never approved of his future HOF QB taking off prematurely from the pocket while Bud Grant refused to resist how Fran was wired. Who got best rewarded for Tarkenton's assets - the overthinker pissed his QB wasn't wired exactly like he was or the more open minded defensive oriented head coach (Bud Grant) that thought - I'd hate to have to defend Tarkenton's improvise?
The disappointing thing about Josh Gordon was he showed examples of not learning the playbook, taking plays off, and showing up to meetings late after he got a chance to come back so he was suspended. Actions speaking louder than words tells me this is 1 more chance not taken serious in an increasing list of many. You can only fool people so many times. You know I've always had rose colored glasses to a fault. Not any more with Josh though...
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So, do you think Johnny should start simply because he was a first round draft choice? Or should we start the best QB on the roster in an attempt to win that day's game? I've never been on an NFL roster, but I am assuming the players and coaches in the locker room are only worried about next Sunday's game, not what will happen in 2018, which is not promised to any of them. You don't see Wilson, Brady, Rodgers, etc. being taken out of games to 'build for the future'. That is the song of losers. Frankly, I don't care who they pick as long as the best players line up on Sunday. That is the only way to turn this losing mentality around. Not to embrace it and say that we need to sit the starters so we can see what we have for the future.
The coaches see Johnny every day. As I have pointed out before, do you really think Pettine, whose job depends on victories, is willingly going to sit the best QB on the roster?
Didn't I give you 3 inexperienced QB's to pick from, not experienced veterans?
You could heed your own advice about an adult conversation. Again, tell me what you have seen on the field that warrants not starting the best QB on the team? Besides the fact that the second best QB, and that may be generous, is a first round draft choice and has produced 2 games of mediocre stats similar to other QB's who were not mediocre over their career.
What do you honestly think the veteran's prefer? Starting the best players or sitting the best players to 'find out what we have for the future'?
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So, do you think Johnny should start simply because he was a first round draft choice? Or should we start the best QB on the roster in an attempt to win that day's game? I've never been on an NFL roster, but I am assuming the players and coaches in the locker room are only worried about next Sunday's game, not what will happen in 2018, which is not promised to any of them. You don't see Wilson, Brady, Rodgers, etc. being taken out of games to 'build for the future'. That is the song of losers. Frankly, I don't care who they pick as long as the best players line up on Sunday. That is the only way to turn this losing mentality around. Not to embrace it and say that we need to sit the starters so we can see what we have for the future.
The coaches see Johnny every day. As I have pointed out before, do you really think Pettine, whose job depends on victories, is willingly going to sit the best QB on the roster?
Didn't I give you 3 inexperienced QB's to pick from, not experienced veterans?
You could heed your own advice about an adult conversation. Again, tell me what you have seen on the field that warrants not starting the best QB on the team? Besides the fact that the second best QB, and that may be generous, is a first round draft choice and has produced 2 games of mediocre stats similar to other QB's who were not mediocre over their career.
What do you honestly think the veteran's prefer? Starting the best players or sitting the best players to 'find out what we have for the future'?
What do you honestly think the veteran's prefer? Starting the best players or sitting the best players to 'find out what we have for the future'?
If we're going to use the logic that "we need to see what Johnny has", then we should probably bench Mack as well. He's 99% for sure not coming back next year so we should put in Erving at center now at this point so we can "see what he has" as well.
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So, do you think Johnny should start simply because he was a first round draft choice? Or should we start the best QB on the roster in an attempt to win that day's game? I've never been on an NFL roster, but I am assuming the players and coaches in the locker room are only worried about next Sunday's game, not what will happen in 2018, which is not promised to any of them. You don't see Wilson, Brady, Rodgers, etc. being taken out of games to 'build for the future'. That is the song of losers. Frankly, I don't care who they pick as long as the best players line up on Sunday. That is the only way to turn this losing mentality around. Not to embrace it and say that we need to sit the starters so we can see what we have for the future.
The coaches see Johnny every day. As I have pointed out before, do you really think Pettine, whose job depends on victories, is willingly going to sit the best QB on the roster?
Didn't I give you 3 inexperienced QB's to pick from, not experienced veterans?
You could heed your own advice about an adult conversation. Again, tell me what you have seen on the field that warrants not starting the best QB on the team? Besides the fact that the second best QB, and that may be generous, is a first round draft choice and has produced 2 games of mediocre stats similar to other QB's who were not mediocre over their career.
What do you honestly think the veteran's prefer? Starting the best players or sitting the best players to 'find out what we have for the future'?
So, do you think Johnny should start simply because he was a first round draft choice? Or should we start the best QB on the roster in an attempt to win that day's game? I've never been on an NFL roster, but I am assuming the players and coaches in the locker room are only worried about next Sunday's game, not what will happen in 2018, which is not promised to any of them. You don't see Wilson, Brady, Rodgers, etc. being taken out of games to 'build for the future'. That is the song of losers. Frankly, I don't care who they pick as long as the best players line up on Sunday. That is the only way to turn this losing mentality around. Not to embrace it and say that we need to sit the starters so we can see what we have for the future.
The coaches see Johnny every day. As I have pointed out before, do you really think Pettine, whose job depends on victories, is willingly going to sit the best QB on the roster?
Didn't I give you 3 inexperienced QB's to pick from, not experienced veterans?
You could heed your own advice about an adult conversation. Again, tell me what you have seen on the field that warrants not starting the best QB on the team? Besides the fact that the second best QB, and that may be generous, is a first round draft choice and has produced 2 games of mediocre stats similar to other QB's who were not mediocre over their career.
What do you honestly think the veteran's prefer? Starting the best players or sitting the best players to 'find out what we have for the future'?
Ramblin, this is all you gotta do with me and it's much easier to enjoy conversation with you.
I don't know what Johnny's future promises. I'm being honest about that. Yes, I agree with you that the coaches see Johnny every day but all but 4 weeks of his career he's been practicing as the scout team QB instead of taking reps as our QB prepping for the opposing defense thus far.
3 inexperienced QBs got better commitments than Taylor Gabriel, Dwayne Bowe, Brian Hartline, Terrelle Pryor such as Amari Cooper, Michael Crabtree, Allen Robinson, etc. And there's no Adrian Peterson capable of carrying a QB as piss poor as Christian Ponder to playoffs here so it's not even close to apples to apples in my opinion. I'll confess to liking the way Oakland drafted in round 1 the last 2 years. That said, I'll also admit to being excited we drafted Manziel at least before I learned only a percentage of our brain trust bought in/supported that pick.
I agree with you about the starting the best players on Sundays believe it or not. Although our 32nd ranked defense makes me wonder why we're reluctant not to see what we drafted at QB. Cincy picked off Ben 3 times last week and held Pitt to the same 10 points they held us to. The only difference is their defense competed from start to finish while our's did its usual 2nd half flat line.
One Qb is 1-1 in his two 2015 starts while the other is 1-6 in a world where Bill Parcells says you are what your record says you are. Why not investigate the guy that's 1-1 a little further unless you think it's jeopardizing a playoff run? And let's just say we learn you're right and I'm wrong - what gives us a better chance of drafting the pick of the litter at QB in 2016 - winning 1 or 2 more games with the 36 year old QB or flat lining while learning Manziel is clearly not the guy?
I just want to see why our brain trust chose Manziel over Carr and Bridgewater rather than reading chicken shit excuses why they're terrified to see why they spent a first round pick on this particular QB. Don't you agree they should have ironed out what limitations they could have worked with easiest between Carr, Manziel and Bridgewater. I wouldn't have had a hard time getting as gung ho about either alternative as I did about Manziel.
As for the veterans, I thought I saw a spark in the TN game and again in the first half of the Cincy game. Mack and Thomas had a lot of really positive things to say about the difference in the 22 year old version of Manziel. It looks to me like McCown is having a tougher time surviving recent starts.
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I mean, it was a 14-10 game at halftime, and it never felt that close. Even in the third quarter when it was 17-10, did anyone really feel like it was a one score game? Our defense couldn't get off the field AGAIN on 3rd down, and not only that, it looked far too easy. At one point Dalton hit like 11 in a row or something, and the coverage was terrible. The pass rush was terrible. I hold my breath whenever we blitz because we NEVER GET HOME and somebody is always running willy-nilly free down the field.
Actually, we did get home once, and the dipshit gets called for a taunting penalty. Then compounds it by lining up offside later in the drive. Where's the accountability for that sort of crap, Mr. Pettine?
Actually, we did get home once, and the dipshit gets called for a taunting penalty.
Just for the sake of accuracy, the taunting occurred after a run stop for a 1-yd gain by Gio...
...I'm starting to wonder in Alex Mack has already checked out and has his sights set on the end of the season. If he decides to leave, we get nothing, right?
Nope nothing, but if Alex plans to leave he should be performing at a level that will earn him at least as good of a contract... and he's not... not by a long shot.
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at this point play the fucking kid so all this shit can stop at the end of the year when he get's canned.
it's been a mess since he got here.
thanks haslam.
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i'll be glad when this whole manziel mess is over with.
8 more weeks and i can finally not have to worry about JF in cleveland stories anymore...
YIPPEEEE!!
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Flugel, at the core of all of this, we are really talking about conflicting principles. At what point is any season lost? The desire to see what the future holds is usually in direct conflict with winning that day's game. Yes, teams have done a better job of drafting than we have, but that can't be an excuse. For any part of this. Similar to what you referenced with Parcells, you either are winning games or you aren't. We are not winning. So now you go into a discussion over why. And more importantly, how is it going to get better? And many of your points are spot on. Part of that discussion is certainly which players should still be here next year or continuing to start this year. But I have yet to hear anyone mention McCown's play as a reason the team is losing. So, other than injury, why should he sit? So we can see what we have in a player who did not take his job seriously at all last year and has been the source of constant off the field distractions? Explaining that further, I am, in all areas of life, a substance over style person. I don't care what it looks like, I only care what it is. So I don't see the benefit or wisdom of sitting your best QB with 7 games left in the season. Down the road, sure, if they want to look to the future. But not now, they are 1-1 in the division and can still accomplish something worth building on this year.
Yes, I did not like the Manziel pick and I didn't think it was a good football decision especially considering that nobody else in the NFL felt that way about him. Personally, I believe the pick was Haslam's and was a desperate attempt to attach some relevancy to the Browns. And I truly believe that 'Manzielmania' tanked a possible playoff season last year. If you remember, at 6-3 and 7-4, a large portion of the fan base was not happy with where the team was simply because Manziel wasn't playing. And this from so-called fans of a team that had won just 4 or 5 games each of the 6 prior years. And when Hoyer collapsed under all this scrutiny, we all got to see what the coaches knew all along, that Manziel wasn't anywhere near ready to play.
This is where you and I got off on the wrong foot. And while I do think your point about their records is very valid, if Manziel is not the best QB on the roster, he shouldn't be playing. And he isn't. Beyond that, personally, I don't want to hear that he should play because of any of these reasons: a. he is a first round draft choice; b. he has similar stats to other great QB's early in their career and c. he is much improved over last year. I take exception to it because none of those have anything to do with his actual play. His play on the field, along with his behavior off the field, should determine his status.
I want to hear about the things he is doing on the field, which have been mediocre at best so far, that warrant more playing time over McCown. Just to illustrate this, look at the replay of the Johnson touchdown, universally regarded positively as Johnny being Johnny. And, obviously, the result was good, although to me, it was more of a great catch by Johnson. But if you watch the replay, Duke was open for the touchdown at the 8 yard line before he even got halfway across the field. Yes, the pocket was starting to collapse, but instead of bailing, he could have stayed and hit Johnson in time. I think the coaches probably would have preferred that. That's all I am really saying. Play him, or support playing him, because he is good enough to play, not just because we need to see what we have.
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Opal, it's a matter of seeing plays... in or out of the pocket. A couple of the plays made after bailing were missed from in the pocket...
1. the pass to MJ; and
2. the TD to Duke.
You simply don't get hero points at this level for solving the crisis you create.
It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it gets done.
It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it gets done.
But when you pass up an opportunity there are no assurances another appears...
Except, you know, Manziel is a better passer than Vick, Young and RG3. That's why we're talking about extending plays, not running the ball.
Also the reason I was evaluating a QB and not a passer/ extender... whatever the fuck that is...
It's Wilson's college career vs. Manziel's, because the point is that Seattle has harnessed Wilson's ability, while we have constrained Manziel's.
In no way was Wilson a legitimately better passer than Manziel in college. For every argument that Manziel can't (or wont) pass from the pocket, there's actual numbers that prove otherwise. Now Wilson is experiencing success while Manziel isn't.
So a harness is not constraining... good to know. Feels like you are just doing the devil's advocate thing, TC... and not with much conviction.
JM has yet to show that he is reading Defenses and not just looking for open receivers. Wilson reads D's... may or may not have done so in college. What matters is that he is doing it now...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it gets done.
But when you pass up an opportunity there are no assurances another appears...
Except, you know, Manziel is a better passer than Vick, Young and RG3. That's why we're talking about extending plays, not running the ball.
Also the reason I was evaluating a QB and not a passer/ extender... whatever the fuck that is...
It's Wilson's college career vs. Manziel's, because the point is that Seattle has harnessed Wilson's ability, while we have constrained Manziel's.
In no way was Wilson a legitimately better passer than Manziel in college. For every argument that Manziel can't (or wont) pass from the pocket, there's actual numbers that prove otherwise. Now Wilson is experiencing success while Manziel isn't.
So a harness is not constraining... good to know. Feels like you are just doing the devil's advocate thing, TC... and not with much conviction.
JM has yet to show that he is reading Defenses and not just looking for open receivers. Wilson reads D's... may or may not have done so in college. What matters is that he is doing it now...
But when you pass up an opportunity there are no assurances another appears...
Also the reason I was evaluating a QB and not a passer/ extender... whatever the fuck that is...
So a harness is not constraining... good to know. Feels like you are just doing the devil's advocate thing, TC... and not with much conviction.
JM has yet to show that he is reading Defenses and not just looking for open receivers. Wilson reads D's... may or may not have done so in college. What matters is that he is doing it now...
Guilty as charged. Just spurring debate.
The appeal of Johnny being like Wilson intrigues me, while the erroneous claims of Johnny being subpar in the pocket riles me up.
He's not an unfortunate passer. He's just a rookie who hasn't gotten a chance to play to his strengths because they aren't "appropriate".
I still like McCown more, regardless.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
i'll be glad when this whole manziel mess is over with.
8 more weeks and i can finally not have to worry about JF in cleveland stories anymore...
YIPPEEEE!!
i'll be glad when this whole manziel mess is over with.
8 more weeks and i can finally not have to worry about JF in cleveland stories anymore...
YIPPEEEE!!
LOL-mik you're dreamin'. How'd that go at the end of last season for ya?
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