Jonathan Paul Manziel
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at this point play the fucking kid so all this shit can stop at the end of the year when he get's canned.
it's been a mess since he got here.
thanks haslam.
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i'll be glad when this whole manziel mess is over with.
8 more weeks and i can finally not have to worry about JF in cleveland stories anymore...
YIPPEEEE!!
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Flugel, at the core of all of this, we are really talking about conflicting principles. At what point is any season lost? The desire to see what the future holds is usually in direct conflict with winning that day's game. Yes, teams have done a better job of drafting than we have, but that can't be an excuse. For any part of this. Similar to what you referenced with Parcells, you either are winning games or you aren't. We are not winning. So now you go into a discussion over why. And more importantly, how is it going to get better? And many of your points are spot on. Part of that discussion is certainly which players should still be here next year or continuing to start this year. But I have yet to hear anyone mention McCown's play as a reason the team is losing. So, other than injury, why should he sit? So we can see what we have in a player who did not take his job seriously at all last year and has been the source of constant off the field distractions? Explaining that further, I am, in all areas of life, a substance over style person. I don't care what it looks like, I only care what it is. So I don't see the benefit or wisdom of sitting your best QB with 7 games left in the season. Down the road, sure, if they want to look to the future. But not now, they are 1-1 in the division and can still accomplish something worth building on this year.
Yes, I did not like the Manziel pick and I didn't think it was a good football decision especially considering that nobody else in the NFL felt that way about him. Personally, I believe the pick was Haslam's and was a desperate attempt to attach some relevancy to the Browns. And I truly believe that 'Manzielmania' tanked a possible playoff season last year. If you remember, at 6-3 and 7-4, a large portion of the fan base was not happy with where the team was simply because Manziel wasn't playing. And this from so-called fans of a team that had won just 4 or 5 games each of the 6 prior years. And when Hoyer collapsed under all this scrutiny, we all got to see what the coaches knew all along, that Manziel wasn't anywhere near ready to play.
This is where you and I got off on the wrong foot. And while I do think your point about their records is very valid, if Manziel is not the best QB on the roster, he shouldn't be playing. And he isn't. Beyond that, personally, I don't want to hear that he should play because of any of these reasons: a. he is a first round draft choice; b. he has similar stats to other great QB's early in their career and c. he is much improved over last year. I take exception to it because none of those have anything to do with his actual play. His play on the field, along with his behavior off the field, should determine his status.
I want to hear about the things he is doing on the field, which have been mediocre at best so far, that warrant more playing time over McCown. Just to illustrate this, look at the replay of the Johnson touchdown, universally regarded positively as Johnny being Johnny. And, obviously, the result was good, although to me, it was more of a great catch by Johnson. But if you watch the replay, Duke was open for the touchdown at the 8 yard line before he even got halfway across the field. Yes, the pocket was starting to collapse, but instead of bailing, he could have stayed and hit Johnson in time. I think the coaches probably would have preferred that. That's all I am really saying. Play him, or support playing him, because he is good enough to play, not just because we need to see what we have.
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Opal, it's a matter of seeing plays... in or out of the pocket. A couple of the plays made after bailing were missed from in the pocket...
1. the pass to MJ; and
2. the TD to Duke.
You simply don't get hero points at this level for solving the crisis you create.
It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it gets done.
It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it gets done.
But when you pass up an opportunity there are no assurances another appears...
Except, you know, Manziel is a better passer than Vick, Young and RG3. That's why we're talking about extending plays, not running the ball.
Also the reason I was evaluating a QB and not a passer/ extender... whatever the fuck that is...
It's Wilson's college career vs. Manziel's, because the point is that Seattle has harnessed Wilson's ability, while we have constrained Manziel's.
In no way was Wilson a legitimately better passer than Manziel in college. For every argument that Manziel can't (or wont) pass from the pocket, there's actual numbers that prove otherwise. Now Wilson is experiencing success while Manziel isn't.
So a harness is not constraining... good to know. Feels like you are just doing the devil's advocate thing, TC... and not with much conviction.
JM has yet to show that he is reading Defenses and not just looking for open receivers. Wilson reads D's... may or may not have done so in college. What matters is that he is doing it now...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it gets done.
But when you pass up an opportunity there are no assurances another appears...
Except, you know, Manziel is a better passer than Vick, Young and RG3. That's why we're talking about extending plays, not running the ball.
Also the reason I was evaluating a QB and not a passer/ extender... whatever the fuck that is...
It's Wilson's college career vs. Manziel's, because the point is that Seattle has harnessed Wilson's ability, while we have constrained Manziel's.
In no way was Wilson a legitimately better passer than Manziel in college. For every argument that Manziel can't (or wont) pass from the pocket, there's actual numbers that prove otherwise. Now Wilson is experiencing success while Manziel isn't.
So a harness is not constraining... good to know. Feels like you are just doing the devil's advocate thing, TC... and not with much conviction.
JM has yet to show that he is reading Defenses and not just looking for open receivers. Wilson reads D's... may or may not have done so in college. What matters is that he is doing it now...
But when you pass up an opportunity there are no assurances another appears...
Also the reason I was evaluating a QB and not a passer/ extender... whatever the fuck that is...
So a harness is not constraining... good to know. Feels like you are just doing the devil's advocate thing, TC... and not with much conviction.
JM has yet to show that he is reading Defenses and not just looking for open receivers. Wilson reads D's... may or may not have done so in college. What matters is that he is doing it now...
Guilty as charged. Just spurring debate.
The appeal of Johnny being like Wilson intrigues me, while the erroneous claims of Johnny being subpar in the pocket riles me up.
He's not an unfortunate passer. He's just a rookie who hasn't gotten a chance to play to his strengths because they aren't "appropriate".
I still like McCown more, regardless.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
i'll be glad when this whole manziel mess is over with.
8 more weeks and i can finally not have to worry about JF in cleveland stories anymore...
YIPPEEEE!!
i'll be glad when this whole manziel mess is over with.
8 more weeks and i can finally not have to worry about JF in cleveland stories anymore...
YIPPEEEE!!
LOL-mik you're dreamin'. How'd that go at the end of last season for ya?
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I think Johnny should play. IMHO, on field play will lead to far more improvement than clipboard duty.
As far as best chance to win? Let's look at the last 3 games & who played QB made little, if any, difference...
Browns vs Rams at the half.......Rams up 10-3............2nd half scoring......Rams 14-3 Final score: Rams win 24-6
Browns vs Cards at the half.......Browns up 20-10.......2nd half scoring......Cards 24-0 Final score: Cards win 34-20
Browns vs Bengals at the half....Bengals up 14-10......2nd half scoring......Bengals 17-0 Final score: Bengals win 31-10
The math is simple...that's the Browns being outscored in the 2nd half in our last 3 games by 55-3! Pathetic.
Instead of worrying about who is QB, maybe Pettine needs to start addressing the REAL issues..Lack of halftime and in game adjustments by him & his staff & improving or scrapping that so-called defense.
Sorry folks, I'm no football guru, just a Browns' Fan. I supported Pettine for a long time, but the fact is that BOTH our QBs have improved FAR more this year than has Pettine & staff. Now I'm waiting to see progress. After all, he IS the Head Coach.
Mike
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But when you pass up an opportunity there are no assurances another appears...
Also the reason I was evaluating a QB and not a passer/ extender... whatever the fuck that is...
So a harness is not constraining... good to know. Feels like you are just doing the devil's advocate thing, TC... and not with much conviction.
JM has yet to show that he is reading Defenses and not just looking for open receivers. Wilson reads D's... may or may not have done so in college. What matters is that he is doing it now...
Guilty as charged. Just spurring debate.
The appeal of Johnny being like Wilson intrigues me, while the erroneous claims of Johnny being subpar in the pocket riles me up.
He's not an unfortunate passer. He's just a rookie who hasn't gotten a chance to play to his strengths because they aren't "appropriate".
I still like McCown more, regardless.
Guilty as charged. Just spurring debate.
The appeal of Johnny being like Wilson intrigues me, while the erroneous claims of Johnny being subpar in the pocket riles me up.
He's not an unfortunate passer. He's just a rookie who hasn't gotten a chance to play to his strengths because they aren't "appropriate".
You Devil, you...
I would not say his strengths aren't appropriate. It's just his strengths can't compensate for a lack of pro-level skills. Should he develop the ability to read, then every strength becomes a genuine asset.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
LOL-mik you're dreamin'. How'd that go at the end of last season for ya?
that was last season AG. sorry, something has to give or go. love you JF's passion fans but it's not working here. better off for both he and the org to part ways.
jerrah would take him in a heartbeat right now. at least you could see him wreck the cowboys on your local broadcast.
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LOL-mik you're dreamin'. How'd that go at the end of last season for ya?
that was last season AG. sorry, something has to give or go. love you JF's passion fans but it's not working here. better off for both he and the org to part ways.
jerrah would take him in a heartbeat right now. at least you could see him wreck the cowboys on your local broadcast.
that was last season AG. sorry, something has to give or go. love you JF's passion fans but it's not working here. better off for both he and the org to part ways.
jerrah would take him in a heartbeat right now. at least you could see him wreck the cowboys on your local broadcast.
It would not bother me if JF left, but the better fit is with Pete Carroll as Wilson's backup. Pettine won't change or adapt offenses or defenses to any of his players here so I would not blame any for leaving at this point. Add to that an FO without a clue as to the importance of game changing skill players on O. Unfortunately for the Browns that overall problem is far bigger than Johnny Football and is not easily resolved due to such high regime turnover. I can see two more years of crappy coaching combined with mediocre receiving skills before anything can change significantly. The Browns are a dumpster fire and this fan base deserves a hell of a lot better.
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Yeah, that's exactly what we need. More losses by the second string in games the first string might have won. The path to relevancy in the NFL is simple: win games. You hire winners, leave them alone to build a winning culture and then find players that fit your culture. Not playing your best players will never be the way to get there. I mean, who would want to play for a team that isn't trying to win every single game it plays. It's a losing mentality. And, quite frankly, only being discussed because of Manziel being on the roster. After the way he approached his job last year and the constant off field issues, that is exactly what the Browns should do, reward him with the starting job that he hasn't earned yet. Brilliant!!
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I think the poster's points were all pretty fair. Gabriel dropped a tough touchdown reception on Manziel's first long drive, which really hurts considering that would've given Johnny two lengthy td drives against a stout team, and that's something that not many people have done. But again, that goes back to having tiny, mighty mouse receivers. But let's stay on point...
The Bengals are a very difficult team to play well against because they generate a ton of pressure with only bringing 4 guys. That's a luxury that not many other teams have, and it makes life as a qb so hard. The Bengals also did an excellent job of containing Manziel, which isn't the easiest thing to do. I didn't watch the game again like I usually do, but I'm assuming Johnny missed his fair share of reads, which you can't do against a great defense. But I have to say, there were many times when I saw our receivers getting NO separation, and that's not his fault. I mean, Pacman Jones was ALL OVER our guys, and it seemed like we couldn't get open for crap. Obviously Johnny missed multiple open targets, but so does McCown and everyone else. And yes, he throws the ball hard, and maybe could benefit from having some more touch, but this is the NFL. NFL receivers make those catches (I'm talking to YOU Gabriel). That deep rocket that bounced off of Gabriel's kneecap...wow. Would've been 20 yards, and possibly more if he's able to spin and turn it up field.
Johnny got rattled in the second half, but let's not forget that we ran the ball ONE TIME. Once. How in the world can any QB, not named Rodgers or Brady, succeed against a great team that knows you're passing every down? Didn't Crowell look good in the first half?
Anyways, if it were up to me, I put Johnny in for the rest of the season. There is zero pressure to win, and he just needs to get better. Playing in a prime time game on a short week of practice ON the road is a tall order for most qb's, let alone a young guy trying to figure it all out. Let the kid have an entire week of practice, make a STATEMENT to the press saying he's going to be the starter for the rest of the year so he's not looking over his shoulder, and let's see what we have. It's not like Johnny doesn't have talent. The ball comes out hot, and he has a quick release. He has good speed. Maybe if we had some weapons around him AND A RUNNING GAME, he'd be able to deliver more.
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I think the poster's points were all pretty fair. Gabriel dropped a tough touchdown reception on Manziel's first long drive, which really hurts considering that would've given Johnny two lengthy td drives against a stout team, and that's something that not many people have done. But again, that goes back to having tiny, mighty mouse receivers. But let's stay on point...
The Bengals are a very difficult team to play well against because they generate a ton of pressure with only bringing 4 guys. That's a luxury that not many other teams have, and it makes life as a qb so hard. The Bengals also did an excellent job of containing Manziel, which isn't the easiest thing to do. I didn't watch the game again like I usually do, but I'm assuming Johnny missed his fair share of reads, which you can't do against a great defense. But I have to say, there were many times when I saw our receivers getting NO separation, and that's not his fault. I mean, Pacman Jones was ALL OVER our guys, and it seemed like we couldn't get open for crap. Obviously Johnny missed multiple open targets, but so does McCown and everyone else. And yes, he throws the ball hard, and maybe could benefit from having some more touch, but this is the NFL. NFL receivers make those catches (I'm talking to YOU Gabriel). That deep rocket that bounced off of Gabriel's kneecap...wow. Would've been 20 yards, and possibly more if he's able to spin and turn it up field.
Johnny got rattled in the second half, but let's not forget that we ran the ball ONE TIME. Once. How in the world can any QB, not named Rodgers or Brady, succeed against a great team that knows you're passing every down? Didn't Crowell look good in the first half?
Anyways, if it were up to me, I put Johnny in for the rest of the season. There is zero pressure to win, and he just needs to get better. Playing in a prime time game on a short week of practice ON the road is a tall order for most qb's, let alone a young guy trying to figure it all out. Let the kid have an entire week of practice, make a STATEMENT to the press saying he's going to be the starter for the rest of the year so he's not looking over his shoulder, and let's see what we have. It's not like Johnny doesn't have talent. The ball comes out hot, and he has a quick release. He has good speed. Maybe if we had some weapons around him AND A RUNNING GAME, he'd be able to deliver more.
Anyways, if it were up to me, I put Johnny in for the rest of the season. There is zero pressure to win, and he just needs to get better. Playing in a prime time game on a short week of practice ON the road is a tall order for most qb's, let alone a young guy trying to figure it all out. Let the kid have an entire week of practice, make a STATEMENT to the press saying he's going to be the starter for the rest of the year so he's not looking over his shoulder, and let's see what we have. It's not like Johnny doesn't have talent. The ball comes out hot, and he has a quick release. He has good speed. Maybe if we had some weapons around him AND A RUNNING GAME, he'd be able to deliver more.
Zero pressure to win? So as long as Pettine plays Johhny the rest of the way "to see what we gots" it will be ok to go 2-14? Haslim gives Pettine and Farmer a mulligan to let Manziel show his lively arm and collegiate level speed?
Really?
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I think the poster's points were all pretty fair. Gabriel dropped a tough touchdown reception on Manziel's first long drive, which really hurts considering that would've given Johnny two lengthy td drives against a stout team, and that's something that not many people have done. But again, that goes back to having tiny, mighty mouse receivers. But let's stay on point...
The Bengals are a very difficult team to play well against because they generate a ton of pressure with only bringing 4 guys. That's a luxury that not many other teams have, and it makes life as a qb so hard. The Bengals also did an excellent job of containing Manziel, which isn't the easiest thing to do. I didn't watch the game again like I usually do, but I'm assuming Johnny missed his fair share of reads, which you can't do against a great defense. But I have to say, there were many times when I saw our receivers getting NO separation, and that's not his fault. I mean, Pacman Jones was ALL OVER our guys, and it seemed like we couldn't get open for crap. Obviously Johnny missed multiple open targets, but so does McCown and everyone else. And yes, he throws the ball hard, and maybe could benefit from having some more touch, but this is the NFL. NFL receivers make those catches (I'm talking to YOU Gabriel). That deep rocket that bounced off of Gabriel's kneecap...wow. Would've been 20 yards, and possibly more if he's able to spin and turn it up field.
Johnny got rattled in the second half, but let's not forget that we ran the ball ONE TIME. Once. How in the world can any QB, not named Rodgers or Brady, succeed against a great team that knows you're passing every down? Didn't Crowell look good in the first half?
Anyways, if it were up to me, I put Johnny in for the rest of the season. There is zero pressure to win, and he just needs to get better. Playing in a prime time game on a short week of practice ON the road is a tall order for most qb's, let alone a young guy trying to figure it all out. Let the kid have an entire week of practice, make a STATEMENT to the press saying he's going to be the starter for the rest of the year so he's not looking over his shoulder, and let's see what we have. It's not like Johnny doesn't have talent. The ball comes out hot, and he has a quick release. He has good speed. Maybe if we had some weapons around him AND A RUNNING GAME, he'd be able to deliver more.
I put Johnny in for the rest of the season. There is zero pressure to win............
Let the kid have an entire week of practice.....
make a STATEMENT to the press saying he's going to be the starter for the rest of the year
Gotta take exception too...there is definitely pressure to win.....have you not read the 5987 threads screaming everytime we lose?....or listened to the radio or read the news after a loss?.....etc etc etc.....even as poorly as we play, the whole Browns universe explodes every time we lose.....Lots and lots and lots of screaming for Pettine and Farmers heads(which is pressure)....
And he DID have a week plus of practice with the first team. McC was out the prior week, so JF got the first team reps.....it just didnt look that way in the game....
And lets be clear ....making the statement JF is our starter for the rest of the season, is really telling the 52 OTHER guys what...?
1) The harder working and better players(like McCown) doesnt always get the worm....
2) Set your pride aside, because winning this year no longer matters.......
3) And 1st round picks are entitled to starting roles, even when they dont earn it or play better than the veteran starter.....
Honestly. Id like to see him play more....but I wouldnt announce him as anything but this weeks starter......
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Agree totally Mud
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The Browns should play Johnny for the rest of the season even though McCown's still a better QB at this point. From the news emerging from his weekend at A&M JFF's not going to change his lifestyle, the Browns need to find out whether he's worth the headache. If not, draft or find another QB in FA.
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The good news leaking out is that he was with a different girl.....THATS a good sign.......
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"I met gin-soaked bar-room quenn in Memphis"
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