Pettine, Not Farmer, To Blame?
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It's disappointing we may turn over another coach
But I'm a Cleveland fan and always will be.
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After reading the article With all-22 analysis about Johnny not throwing to open recievers that he actually read from the pocket I have to back Pettine on his aversion to JM. And I put the blame for JM on Farmer and/or Jimmy. Gilbert's problems are on Gilbert and on Farmer for drafting him for either not flagging his maturity issues or drafting him despite it. Sure, Pettine might have wanted him but it is the FO's job to thoroughly scout him and push back if they need to. The lack of WR is on Farmer 100%, as is the West waste.
If the team does get rid of Farmer, there is already a guy in the front office with more GM and player personelle experience than farmer who could make a good GM. Bill Kuharich.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Kuharich
If they get rid of Pettine, who is going to come coach here? Promoting Flip to HC is nuts and is a sure fire way to regress the offense. O'Neil I think we agree has to go.
Haslam is in a tricky position. Pettine is his guy, and anyone who thinks Banner was the driving force behind that hire wasn't paying attention. Multiple times, both right after the hire and prior to this season, Haslam said he was committed to his staff. How can he say that unless he decided that no matter what, he was sticking with his guy? But now the fans want to see some accountability.
I think Pettine saves his job, Haslam pressures Pettine to fire or demote O'Neil (I think that demotion comes at the bye week) back to his role from last year, and Farmer gets fired at the bye week or the end of the season with Kuharich stepping in at GM. It's all speculation of course but I'd feel a lot better about this team if that happened.
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Maybe, just maybe, the real "inside" source is one particular guy who likes committee decisions so he never has to take any responsibility. Scared rabbits are really good at camouflage.
Otherwise this whole story has to be just BS, not that that has ever happened before. I can't believe any head coach would not use the best players he has, unless of course that guy was selected by some homeless guy or something.
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What's the longest tenure since 99 for us?
Crennel 4 full seasons. (1 winning season 10-6, no playoff birth)
Davis had like 3 and 3/4 seasons. (1 winning season, 9-7, wild card playoff loss)
I remember Crennel like it was yesterday......even though it was 7 years ago. I can still remember those pizza commercials or whatever he did.
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Just looked back and see that Crennel had the 4th longest tenure since 1970....wow....
Rutigliano = 97 games
Belichick = 80 games
Marty Shot = 71 games
Crennel = 64 games.....
Surprised to see Billy is #2 and was here longer than Marty.....didnt seem that long......
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Unless the Browns happen to get 6 or 7 players to Honolulu at season's end, the strongest stench on this team is coming from Farmer
If we fail to get the same amount of players to the Pro Bowl that we got two years ago, even if those players are still on our team, wouldn't that be indicative of poor coaching?
If we fail to get the same amount of players to the Pro Bowl that we got two years ago, even if those players are still on our team, wouldn't that be indicative of poor coaching?
2013 Browns Pro Bowlers
Joe Thomas (should make another Pro Bowl)
Alex Mack (not playing well, but I would guess its injury related)
Josh Gordon (next)
Jordan Cameron (gone - next)
Joe Haden (injured)
So this list is an indictment of Pettine??
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What's the longest tenure since 99 for us?
Crennel 4 full seasons. (1 winning season 10-6, no playoff birth)
Davis had like 3 and 3/4 seasons. (1 winning season, 9-7, wild card playoff loss)
I remember Crennel like it was yesterday......even though it was 7 years ago. I can still remember those pizza commercials or whatever he did.
Crennel 4 full seasons. (1 winning season 10-6, no playoff birth)
Davis had like 3 and 3/4 seasons. (1 winning season, 9-7, wild card playoff loss)
I remember Crennel like it was yesterday......even though it was 7 years ago. I can still remember those pizza commercials or whatever he did.
Donato's Pizza...
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god dammit. god fucking dammit. Why do we always do this every 1-2 years? Why? This guys AWESOME, he's exactly what this franchise needs....ah fuck this guy he's a bum i can't beleive we ever hired him. THis is just too depressing. I just don't know how none of you get it, we're not going to get a superstar coach here who's gonna get us into the playoffs 1 year into his tenure. It's not happening. THe best we can hope for is a situation like Cincinnatti where a coach is allowed to grow with the franchise. We do this again you can forget it. No one wants to come to this yearly dumpster fire. The new coach next year will be dealing with players from like 3 different regimes, this is bullshit. It's isn't doable. You cannot evaluate a coach until nearly the whole team are "his guys".
I honestly don't know how any of you are so peaked at the prospect of yet anotehr coaching change. I can't take it anymore. I can't take another coaching staff coming in with new O and D philosophies and trying to shoe horn in our current players into those new schemes. I can't take it. Some of you are mentally deranged cause no sane sports fan can tolerate this every 1-2 years from his home team. This is literally insane.
god dammit. god fucking dammit. Why do we always do this every 1-2 years? Why? This guys AWESOME, he's exactly what this franchise needs....ah fuck this guy he's a bum i can't beleive we ever hired him. THis is just too depressing. I just don't know how none of you get it, we're not going to get a superstar coach here who's gonna get us into the playoffs 1 year into his tenure. It's not happening. THe best we can hope for is a situation like Cincinnatti where a coach is allowed to grow with the franchise. We do this again you can forget it. No one wants to come to this yearly dumpster fire. The new coach next year will be dealing with players from like 3 different regimes, this is bullshit. It's isn't doable. You cannot evaluate a coach until nearly the whole team are "his guys".
I honestly don't know how any of you are so peaked at the prospect of yet anotehr coaching change. I can't take it anymore. I can't take another coaching staff coming in with new O and D philosophies and trying to shoe horn in our current players into those new schemes. I can't take it. Some of you are mentally deranged cause no sane sports fan can tolerate this every 1-2 years from his home team. This is literally insane.
Good coaches find ways to win with any players not just their guys, recent examples are the Harbaugh brothers and Pete Carroll. Skrine, Sheard, Rucker, Rubin, Snead, Lewis are all great players that could have helped this team win.
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As each week goes on, it's getting harder and harder to believe in Pettine. Every coach in the league plays his guys, that's how it goes. Billy B. in New England has made a HOF career out of it in many ways. I also get sticking with dudes through a rough patch, especially if they are rookies.
My problem though is that "his guys" have made this an awful team this season. It's a tough pill to swallow to have young potential on the bench not seeing game action while "his guys" get embarrassed on the field. This is all hearsay, but I could easily watching this season unfold believe it to be true.
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Plenty of coaches to choose from, but it'd probably another 2-year reset because nobody we could get would be experienced enough to be able to maximize our talent in a one-year turnaround... Unless we got a veteran retread along the same lines as a Reed, Fox, Arians, DelRio, or Fisher OR got lucky with a guy like Bowles or Quinn...
Plenty of coaches to choose from, but it'd probably another 2-year reset because nobody we could get would be experienced enough to be able to maximize our talent in a one-year turnaround... Unless we got a veteran retread along the same lines as a Reed, Fox, Arians, DelRio, or Fisher OR got lucky with a guy like Bowles or Quinn...
Mark wouldn't like it- but if Sean Payton decides to exit New Orleans- back the truck up Jimmy.
I would replace Farmer now, with Bernie Kosar yesterday.
And Pettine - if he won't replace Oneil with a guy with an
INTELLIGENT defense perspective....
Haslam has to get it right one of these days.
We might be long dead before that happens, Cal.
I think Flip stays.
Cal- I'm beginning to see a lot of a young Tom Coughlin in Pettine. Watch him get fired, and learn from his mistakes. (And Mike is Making plenty of them)
If we fail to get the same amount of players to the Pro Bowl that we got two years ago, even if those players are still on our team, wouldn't that be indicative of poor coaching?
Bingo. How can a defensive minded coach let his defense go from almost respectable, to dead skunk stinko in one year? Can't blame the crap run defense on Haden and Gipson being hurt. If he's not playing guys because their not "his" guys, or they have a bad attitude- I think it was said earlier- that's High School level BS.
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Plenty of coaches to choose from, but it'd probably another 2-year reset because nobody we could get would be experienced enough to be able to maximize our talent in a one-year turnaround... Unless we got a veteran retread along the same lines as a Reed, Fox, Arians, DelRio, or Fisher OR got lucky with a guy like Bowles or Quinn...
Mark wouldn't like it- but if Sean Payton decides to exit New Orleans- back the truck up Jimmy.
I would replace Farmer now, with Bernie Kosar yesterday.
And Pettine - if he won't replace Oneil with a guy with an
INTELLIGENT defense perspective....
Haslam has to get it right one of these days.
We might be long dead before that happens, Cal.
I think Flip stays.
Cal- I'm beginning to see a lot of a young Tom Coughlin in Pettine. Watch him get fired, and learn from his mistakes. (And Mike is Making plenty of them)
If we fail to get the same amount of players to the Pro Bowl that we got two years ago, even if those players are still on our team, wouldn't that be indicative of poor coaching?
Bingo. How can a defensive minded coach let his defense go from almost respectable, to dead skunk stinko in one year? Can't blame the crap run defense on Haden and Gipson being hurt. If he's not playing guys because their not "his" guys, or they have a bad attitude- I think it was said earlier- that's High School level BS.
Mark wouldn't like it- but if Sean Payton decides to exit New Orleans- back the truck up Jimmy.
Because he's the guy who's going to change 40 years of history since the last guy won a super bowl with 2 different teams right? No one else in 40 years has been able to do it but this is the guy? Not Parcells, not Jimmy Johnson...nobody...but Sean Payton will do it. More likely, in two years we are realizing this guy has a boatload of money and already has his super bowl and just doesn't want it as badly as he did before. It will be Holmgren all over again and we'll be back to starting over again.
IF we are getting a new coach, I really don't want to see some retread coach who's already won somewhere else. You think you're going to bring that success here but it just doesn't work that way or at least hasn't in 40 years.
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Bill Walsh became great when he got Montana....Holmgren became great when he had Farve......Bullychick became great when he got Brady.....Payton got great with Brees....Johnson earned his stripes with Aikman.......etc etc etc.....
The only coaches I can come up with....who won over an extended period, with any players they got.....were Don Shula, Paul Brown, Tom Landry and (maybe) Chuck Noll....
All the rest became "great", when they got great teams.....but were quite average before.....and after.....
Whoops.....forgot 2 big ones.....Madden and Lombardi....
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Mark wouldn't like it- but if Sean Payton decides to exit New Orleans- back the truck up Jimmy.
Because he's the guy who's going to change 40 years of history since the last guy won a super bowl with 2 different teams right? No one else in 40 years has been able to do it but this is the guy? Not Parcells, not Jimmy Johnson...nobody...but Sean Payton will do it. More likely, in two years we are realizing this guy has a boatload of money and already has his super bowl and just doesn't want it as badly as he did before. It will be Holmgren all over again and we'll be back to starting over again.
IF we are getting a new coach, I really don't want to see some retread coach who's already won somewhere else. You think you're going to bring that success here but it just doesn't work that way or at least hasn't in 40 years.
Because he's the guy who's going to change 40 years of history since the last guy won a super bowl with 2 different teams right? No one else in 40 years has been able to do it but this is the guy? Not Parcells, not Jimmy Johnson...nobody...but Sean Payton will do it. More likely, in two years we are realizing this guy has a boatload of money and already has his super bowl and just doesn't want it as badly as he did before. It will be Holmgren all over again and we'll be back to starting over again.
IF we are getting a new coach, I really don't want to see some retread coach who's already won somewhere else. You think you're going to bring that success here but it just doesn't work that way or at least hasn't in 40 years.
I'm not too worried about the fact it never happened personally. Winning a super bowl is a lofty chance for any coach, any team especially nowadays.
All in all it depends on the guy more than the stats there IMO.
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DeFilippo going from a position coach to a head coach in 2 years seems awfully risky.I agree to get rid of him if true. But that's a big "IF." Defilipo could be promoted to head coach to build on the offense and bring in a new defensive mind. Still not sure how this would make Farmer look any better...
It's likely the whole staff would be turned over except for Tabor as usual.
Maybe Tabor should just be head coach
he's seen a few do the job now.So the applause for Pet's policy of making players earn starts and playing time by practicing well has now turned to jeers about him being High School?
Maybe Tabor should just be head coach
he's seen a few do the job now.It's not as if ST coaches have never made the jump to HC...
John Harbaugh, Dick Vermeil and Marv Levy all got their NFL starts as ST coaches.
Most have some HC experience at lesser levels. Tabor did at a small college, but also was a TAMU Asst. HC.
I think Pettine saves his job, Haslam pressures Pettine to fire or demote O'Neil (I think that demotion comes at the bye week) back to his role from last year, and Farmer gets fired at the bye week or the end of the season with Kuharich stepping in at GM. It's all speculation of course but I'd feel a lot better about this team if that happened.
O'Neil does not have to go this Bye week. Pet can simply, and quietly, turn his attention back to the Defense.
I can't believe any head coach would not use the best players he has...
Agree... too many incongruities in the report for my taste...
- If Pet does not let JM succeed even in practice, then what basis is there for Flip's and O'Connell's praise?
- If Pet is all in on "win now", then why would he not play his best players? To spite himself?
Plus what objective evidence have we that JM is better than McC? Bowe is better than Moore? Mingo is better than Orchard?
And on not giving Gilbert "reps"... practice is still about more than reps. There are still drills.
As for Haslam... we're losing... I'd expect him to be pissed, but I also expect him to be rational.
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Because he's the guy who's going to change 40 years of history since the last guy won a super bowl with 2 different teams right? No one else in 40 years has been able to do it but this is the guy? Not Parcells, not Jimmy Johnson...nobody...but Sean Payton will do it. More likely, in two years we are realizing this guy has a boatload of money and already has his super bowl and just doesn't want it as badly as he did before. It will be Holmgren all over again and we'll be back to starting over again.
IF we are getting a new coach, I really don't want to see some retread coach who's already won somewhere else. You think you're going to bring that success here but it just doesn't work that way or at least hasn't in 40 years.
I'm not too worried about the fact it never happened personally. Winning a super bowl is a lofty chance for any coach, any team especially nowadays.
All in all it depends on the guy more than the stats there IMO.
. Winning a super bowl is a lofty chance for any coach, any team especially nowadays.
And if you really consider the odds.....if every team got to win equally(which we know doesnt happen) then it would take 32 years for each team to just get one.....and 64 years to win 2....
So....considering some teams have runs and multiples....ala New England, San Fran, Pitts.....that means some teams will have to wait many many decades....and, sadly, we are one of them.....
It's not as if ST coaches have never made the jump to HC...
John Harbaugh, Dick Vermeil and Marv Levy all got their NFL starts as ST coaches.
Bill Cowher....started as the Browns ST coach too....
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Because he's the guy who's going to change 40 years of history since the last guy won a super bowl with 2 different teams right? No one else in 40 years has been able to do it but this is the guy? Not Parcells, not Jimmy Johnson...nobody...but Sean Payton will do it. More likely, in two years we are realizing this guy has a boatload of money and already has his super bowl and just doesn't want it as badly as he did before. It will be Holmgren all over again and we'll be back to starting over again.
IF we are getting a new coach, I really don't want to see some retread coach who's already won somewhere else. You think you're going to bring that success here but it just doesn't work that way or at least hasn't in 40 years.
I'm not too worried about the fact it never happened personally. Winning a super bowl is a lofty chance for any coach, any team especially nowadays.
All in all it depends on the guy more than the stats there IMO.
I'm not too worried about the fact it never happened personally. Winning a super bowl is a lofty chance for any coach, any team especially nowadays.
All in all it depends on the guy more than the stats there IMO.
What it shows is just because a guy achieved the ultimate success at one location doesn't mean it's going to happen again. Saying to "back up the truck" for Payton is kind of silly. There's no guarantee that the Browns will turn into the Saints with him as the coach. The Cowboys and Patriots and Jets thought they were getting that with Parcells, how did that work out? The Dolphins thought they were going to turn into the Jimmy Johnson Cowboys when they hired him, how did that work out?
Find me the next Parcells, Johnson, Bellicheck, Cowher who is an assistant or a college coach and then you're onto something. But we don't know who that guy is till he's hired and given a chance.
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I'm not too worried about the fact it never happened personally. Winning a super bowl is a lofty chance for any coach, any team especially nowadays.
All in all it depends on the guy more than the stats there IMO.
What it shows is just because a guy achieved the ultimate success at one location doesn't mean it's going to happen again. Saying to "back up the truck" for Payton is kind of silly. There's no guarantee that the Browns will turn into the Saints with him as the coach. The Cowboys and Patriots and Jets thought they were getting that with Parcells, how did that work out? The Dolphins thought they were going to turn into the Jimmy Johnson Cowboys when they hired him, how did that work out?
Find me the next Parcells, Johnson, Bellicheck, Cowher who is an assistant or a college coach and then you're onto something. But we don't know who that guy is till he's hired and given a chance.
Find me the next Parcells, Johnson, Bellicheck, Cowher who is an assistant or a college coach and then you're onto something. But we don't know who that guy is till he's hired and given a chance.
We've tried. A whole lot
I'm just saying saying you have a huge mismatch ratio of "fresh blood" type of guys that come in compared to former SB winning coaches moving to a new team.
I mean, say it's 50:1 coordinator types:former SB winners (I don't know the actual ratio - but it's a huge imbalance).
Out of the coordinator/college type of guys who outnumber the retread guys 50:1, some of them are bound to win super bowls - but it doesn't mean the retread guy can't be good.
I mean, I'd take one of the former SB winners over somebody like the jaguars defensive backs coach that we'll probably end up with.
Somebody will win a super bowl with 2 different teams, it's just a matter of time really. Many super bowl winning coaches don't move on.
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