Contradictions hurting team and players.....
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Think back to the Chud hiring.....we tapped Horton and Turner who had more experience in their pinkies, than this whole staff has....
And it was said they would be just what Chud needed, as he acclimated...heck, Turner was even a HC before....
But I dont see how all these brand new, totally green guys are going to demand respect from the players or create a level of confidence within the team......
And considering "new" guys are bound to make mistakes, I guess we've tripled or quadrupled our odds of that happening, because they are all new...eh?
Finally...my favorite....the Peter principle....which says that as long as people do their job well, they will get promoted to the next level........ which is where they will live.....so, many companies(and maybe teams?) are bogged down by people performing one level above their capacity.....could this be the case here?
Is Oneill a LB coach or DC.....Is Flip a QB coach or OC.....Is Pettine just a good DC or a HC?......Is it "likely" that all 3 are ready for their promotions?......hard to tell and NO ONE....including the gm and owner....has the experience to REALLY know....none of them...cause all 5 of the top guys are rookies....all 5.....
THAT is not surrounding yourself with success...or knowledge.....or experience.....
And I think its LAUGHABLE that ALL 5 get to make mistake after mistake and act stubbornly, but they DONT offer the same opportunity to their "new players"...who, apparently, are not permitted to have growing pains...
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There is a simple answer, but many people want to keep blaming the general manager.
What is Pettine's experience leading and developing young talent to mold them into NFL players? He has been a coordinator on some good defensive teams, albeit under performing ones, especially against the run.
Managing personnel development and building a winning team, not from a week-to-week basis, is one of the primary jobs of a head coach. For whatever reason, Pettine is speaking like he's in a one week bubble with his only focus on the team's next opponent. That's isn't just weird, it's insane.
His personnel decisions are questionable as Mud laid out already, and has nothing to do with the players Farmer drafted -- since Pettine continues to say he was on board with and involved in every pick Farmer made.
If they're going to deflect blame to their "Groupthink" approach, and they can't work those players into their game plans after they reached consensus on them, then their process is broken and they both need to be fired. Immediately.
Being likeable and having a shaved head don't excuse you from losing 13 of your last 15 games, and looking like an amateur in the process.
What has Mike Pettine shown anyone that says he has improved the organization or his players after 26 games as the head coach? -- I'll hang up and listen.
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I know Im ranting.....but I just cant seem to stop.....
Traymon is a class guy and a true pro, so for him to speak out today says a lot....
Look, we brought in Kruger, Traymon, Whitner, along with other vets like Starks, Dansby, etc......
You know why?.....because they were veterans and because they had won before.....
and you know what the Browns said when these guys came in?>......they said "they will show the rookies how to be pros and how to win"...."because they've been there, done that and know what it takes"....
SO, if this is true, why do they NOT apply that same thinking to the LEADERS of this team....the ones making all the decisions?
More hypocrisy and contradiction.....
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I liked what did in Buffalo as HC, I literally have no idea who else we'd possibly get in...
He went 9-7 in buffalo, which was a good result, then got run out of town. Ask the bills guy (George?) about how he's viewed there. If you think Pettine is egotistical, he's like the pope compared to Marrone.
He went 9-7 in buffalo, which was a good result, then got run out of town. Ask the bills guy (George?) about how he's viewed there. If you think Pettine is egotistical, he's like the pope compared to Marrone.
Marrone wasn't run out of town he exploited a loophole in his contract to walk away with $4m, hoping another team would hire him as head coach and he'd double down. The gamble failed and he ended up as an O-line coach
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I know Im ranting.....but I just cant seem to stop.....
Traymon is a class guy and a true pro, so for him to speak out today says a lot....
Look, we brought in Kruger, Traymon, Whitner, along with other vets like Starks, Dansby, etc......
You know why?.....because they were veterans and because they had won before.....
and you know what the Browns said when these guys came in?>......they said "they will show the rookies how to be pros and how to win"...."because they've been there, done that and know what it takes"....
SO, if this is true, why do they NOT apply that same thinking to the LEADERS of this team....the ones making all the decisions?
More hypocrisy and contradiction.....
I know Im ranting.....but I just cant seem to stop.....
Traymon is a class guy and a true pro, so for him to speak out today says a lot....
Look, we brought in Kruger, Traymon, Whitner, along with other vets like Starks, Dansby, etc......
You know why?.....because they were veterans and because they had won before.....
and you know what the Browns said when these guys came in?>......they said "they will show the rookies how to be pros and how to win"...."because they've been there, done that and know what it takes"....
SO, if this is true, why do they NOT apply that same thinking to the LEADERS of this team....the ones making all the decisions?
More hypocrisy and contradiction.....
Great point.
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blame the HC for lack of talent?
ummm...........
i'd rather our GM take a chance on someone i've heard of who's played for a power ranked team
can't blame pettine for farmer's shortcomings. can't blame pettine when the pick can't even make the practice squad.
I would argue that the GM "DID" bring in top ranked talent, but the coach refuses to even take it for a test drive.....and he clearly is playing players who arent playing well.....so, new job or not, if you are failing and you refuse to try something else, then maybe it IS the HC and not the talent....
Especially when you have very good talent that "all of a sudden" cant compete....ala Joe Haden, Tramon Williams, Dwayne Bowe, our entire O Line, Kruger, Whitner, Gipson, Hartline....and many others....
When THIS MANY skilled veterans suddenly become baffoons and you refuse to make ANY adjustments and stubbornly stay the course.....then can you really blame just the talent level????
and he knows more about football in one brain cell than you will ever know.
so when you started on your career path doing whatever it is you do, did you know everything there is to know about your job in your first year? no learning curve? no OTJ training?.......and now that you are a manager and have 10 dummies to manage and not all of them are good dummies,......
And I can say "for me", that Ive defended Farmer and Pettine 100%....all the way.....completely.....and I do understand what it takes. Ive bought several "distressed" businesses and flipped em, which is my thing. So Ive been there and done that for 26 years now....for real! I can tell you that Ive certainly made HUGE mistakes, but I also listen to any skilled/long term employees for ideas....and make adjustment after adjustment till things are right. Forcing a square peg into the ole round hole has NEVER worked anywhere....and even though Im not an NFL coach, I can tell you thats whats happening here.....
The one thing you dont have to be a Coach to see....is what I based this thread on.....obvious contradictions. Saying one thing and doing another. And holding very visible double standards within the team. Strong leadership doesnt waver, but it also has balls and can admit mistakes when they happen....
You cant say "were gonna play this guy cause we need to see what he can do".....then NOT play several others because you claim to already know what they can do......and claim to have transparency, then spew a bunch of crap that everyone knows is BS....
Yeah....he's in his second year and he's assembled a staff full of rookies(first mistake, right there). If he's to be successful, he HAS to look around at what successful coaches do and start doing it.....successful people surround themselves with successful people....and I dont see that happening.....I dont see adjustments....I dont even see him admitting there is a problem. He seems to think its just a few missed assignments.....and THAT is the troubling part.....and THAT is why Im playing armchair QB....Not because I think I know more than him about Coaching.... but because I know about leadership and being in charge of a turn around and its the same in business as it is in football.....and he doesnt look up to the task...
Maybe for his "first" HC job, he shouldnt have taken the most challenging one in the league....and if he's gonna tackle it, then he needs to do what good leaders do and get some people in here that know what the fuck they are doing. And when they dont do it right, he needs to say that and make them adjust......simple shit really.....even if it IS coming from my armchair(or office)(same diff)
agree with a lot have said in response to my post defending this regime.
so pettine is 10 years removed from being a hs coach? how long was holmgren removed from coaching when everyone on here (except me AHAH!) exclaimed him the second coming of christ and the savior of the franchise and was hired? so experience means shit in my eyes.
did anyone of you bone heads ever think that the reason he doesn't admit fault or is very 'egotistical' (which i don't see at all) is that he is learning from other pros, just in this specific case with the media. who's the best at it? yep. belichick. who did pettine's teams play against? yep, belichick.
do yourself a favor and watch the 30/30 on belichick and the 96 browns. all those so called rookie coaches went on to become somebody more significant that what we've had since the move. and yet we have to nitpick someone a year and a half in. man if half of us had this type of criticism while on the job there'd prob be a lot more dead people at mcdonalds everyday.
haslam is a biz man and i think he'll live up to his word and give these guys another year, whether you like it or not. and then when they start gelling and winning watch all you cats change your tune.
Especially when you have very good talent that "all of a sudden" cant compete....ala Joe Haden, Tramon Williams, Dwayne Bowe, our entire O Line, Kruger, Whitner, Gipson, Hartline....and many others....
uh you do know that half those guys are hurt, correct?
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agree with a lot have said in response to my post defending this regime.
so pettine is 10 years removed from being a hs coach? how long was holmgren removed from coaching when everyone on here (except me AHAH!) exclaimed him the second coming of christ and the savior of the franchise and was hired? so experience means shit in my eyes.
did anyone of you bone heads ever think that the reason he doesn't admit fault or is very 'egotistical' (which i don't see at all) is that he is learning from other pros, just in this specific case with the media. who's the best at it? yep. belichick. who did pettine's teams play against? yep, belichick.
do yourself a favor and watch the 30/30 on belichick and the 96 browns. all those so called rookie coaches went on to become somebody more significant that what we've had since the move. and yet we have to nitpick someone a year and a half in. man if half of us had this type of criticism while on the job there'd prob be a lot more dead people at mcdonalds everyday.
haslam is a biz man and i think he'll live up to his word and give these guys another year, whether you like it or not. and then when they start gelling and winning watch all you cats change your tune.
Especially when you have very good talent that "all of a sudden" cant compete....ala Joe Haden, Tramon Williams, Dwayne Bowe, our entire O Line, Kruger, Whitner, Gipson, Hartline....and many others....
uh you do know that half those guys are hurt, correct?
haslam is a biz man and i think he'll live up to his word and give these guys another year, whether you like it or not. and then when they start gelling and winning watch all you cats change your tune.
I hope you're right about both of these things. I hope he gets another year and I hope the winning follows. I do like him and I want him to be the successful coach of the Browns.
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haslam is a biz man and i think he'll live up to his word and give these guys another year, whether you like it or not. and then when they start gelling and winning watch all you cats change your tune.
I hope you're right about both of these things. I hope he gets another year and I hope the winning follows. I do like him and I want him to be the successful coach of the Browns.
I hope you're right about both of these things. I hope he gets another year and I hope the winning follows. I do like him and I want him to be the successful coach of the Browns.
I hope you're right about both of these things. I hope he gets another year and I hope the winning follows. I do like him and I want him to be the successful coach of the Browns.
I know Im ranting.....but I just cant seem to stop.....
Traymon is a class guy and a true pro, so for him to speak out today says a lot....
Look, we brought in Kruger, Traymon, Whitner, along with other vets like Starks, Dansby, etc......
You know why?.....because they were veterans and because they had won before.....
and you know what the Browns said when these guys came in?>......they said "they will show the rookies how to be pros and how to win"...."because they've been there, done that and know what it takes"....
SO, if this is true, why do they NOT apply that same thinking to the LEADERS of this team....the ones making all the decisions?
More hypocrisy and contradiction.....
yeah, but you know what mud. We did this before with the same results. mcginnis, jurevicious, lewis etc...if i remember correctly, it didn't work out..
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You make lots of very valid points Mudfly as usual, and fairly put. There is just something I'm not comfortable about seeing Pettine get axed when you correctly point out all the top guys are rookies in this business. That to me is the key mistake, but it's been made and we live in the now. If Pettine's record next year continues along the same path as the last 15 games then he has to go. Miktoxic imo is right when he says these guys have got to learn and grow. It's a brutal job to be in and they don't get given long, but 1.5 years isn't long enough. Other factors I think should be considered are our schedule this year and the fact that the AFC North is a tough division.
What I really liked about your argument was that it was built around inconsistencies, and there certainly do appear to be some glaring ones now you point them out, and let's hope he sorts that out because the clock is certainly ticking for Pettine. Haslam isn't known for patience even though he is on record for saying he won't fire Pettine or Farmer no matter what happens this year.
I guess the key for me is that very few really successful teams have been built around the hiring and firing model and 5 HCs in 9 years goes a long way to explain to me why we are still are where we don't want to be.
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Great Post! Agree all the way. I've been saying all year where are the guys we drafted? I think Gilbert will be good. The game against the Colts last year, interception for TD. Then he disappeared forever? I agree very much about Cameron Erving. He was a great draft pick. I am afraid they will ruin him too.
In my opinion, they need a new Head Coach, and defensive coordinator. Maybe go back to the 4-3 or a scheme that isn't so complicated. You didn't mention Shaun Draugn being picked up by San Fransisco. I played him on one fantasy team.
Some other teams that are trending up are Minnesota with Bridgewater, Anthony Barr, Stefon Diggs. Minnesota is well coached and 7-2.
The Raiders are making good use of recent draft picks that were staring the Browns in the face when we passed on them.
A good organization we all know starts at the top and trickles down. So there has got to be changes made in the front office again.
Two years ago Banner went behind Haslam's back when he turned Schiano away. That's why he was fired. I say we go after Schiano and Mike Singletary or wait for the season ending firings.
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agree with a lot have said in response to my post defending this regime.
so pettine is 10 years removed from being a hs coach? how long was holmgren removed from coaching when everyone on here (except me AHAH!) exclaimed him the second coming of christ and the savior of the franchise and was hired? so experience means shit in my eyes.
did anyone of you bone heads ever think that the reason he doesn't admit fault or is very 'egotistical' (which i don't see at all) is that he is learning from other pros, just in this specific case with the media. who's the best at it? yep. belichick. who did pettine's teams play against? yep, belichick.
do yourself a favor and watch the 30/30 on belichick and the 96 browns. all those so called rookie coaches went on to become somebody more significant that what we've had since the move. and yet we have to nitpick someone a year and a half in. man if half of us had this type of criticism while on the job there'd prob be a lot more dead people at mcdonalds everyday.
haslam is a biz man and i think he'll live up to his word and give these guys another year, whether you like it or not. and then when they start gelling and winning watch all you cats change your tune.
Especially when you have very good talent that "all of a sudden" cant compete....ala Joe Haden, Tramon Williams, Dwayne Bowe, our entire O Line, Kruger, Whitner, Gipson, Hartline....and many others....
uh you do know that half those guys are hurt, correct?
agree with a lot have said in response to my post defending this regime.
so pettine is 10 years removed from being a hs coach? how long was holmgren removed from coaching when everyone on here (except me AHAH!) exclaimed him the second coming of christ and the savior of the franchise and was hired? so experience means shit in my eyes.
did anyone of you bone heads ever think that the reason he doesn't admit fault or is very 'egotistical' (which i don't see at all) is that he is learning from other pros, just in this specific case with the media. who's the best at it? yep. belichick. who did pettine's teams play against? yep, belichick.
do yourself a favor and watch the 30/30 on belichick and the 96 browns. all those so called rookie coaches went on to become somebody more significant that what we've had since the move. and yet we have to nitpick someone a year and a half in. man if half of us had this type of criticism while on the job there'd prob be a lot more dead people at mcdonalds everyday.
haslam is a biz man and i think he'll live up to his word and give these guys another year, whether you like it or not. and then when they start gelling and winning watch all you cats change your tune.
uh you do know that half those guys are hurt, correct?
I'm not sure what your point is with Holmgren...because it seems to be making mine? Holmgren was never our HC, we hired for a job in which he had absolutely zero experience. Being a good HC doesn't mean you're going to be a good GM/President/what have you. To quote the immortal Mitch Hedberg, that's like saying "oh, so you're a cook...can you farm?" Success in one field doesn't equate success in a different, yet related, field.
Haslam is a business man who also fired a HC after one year...and Chud's team did a whole lot more with a whole lot less. In case you forgot, we were 17th on offense and 9th on defense in Chud's lone year. So, I don't think Haslam is too worried about "living up to his word".
They won't start "gelling and winning" when they are trying to force square pegs into round holes. That's the point. If Pettine becomes successful - more power to him. That's what I, and everyone else, wants. But he won't find any success until he stops his high school bullshit like playing his favorites and letting his dumbass friends be defensive coordinator with no repercussions. Stop fucking around with cutesy sub-packages on defense, stop playing the "hot" hand in the offensive backfield. Put the most talented players on the field and scale back down to a base defense. Put the ball in Duke's hands 20 times a game through runs and screens, exploit the defense when they try to bring six every play, deliver two early strikes to Benjamin when you read cover none to keep the defense honest, then run stretch plays sideline to sideline and let Duke plant his foot, make his cut and go.
Just play smart football and stop trying to outwit the other coach - because you're not going to do that.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
blame the HC for lack of talent?
ummm...........
i'd rather our GM take a chance on someone i've heard of who's played for a power ranked team
can't blame pettine for farmer's shortcomings. can't blame pettine when the pick can't even make the practice squad.
I would argue that the GM "DID" bring in top ranked talent, but the coach refuses to even take it for a test drive.....and he clearly is playing players who arent playing well.....so, new job or not, if you are failing and you refuse to try something else, then maybe it IS the HC and not the talent....
Especially when you have very good talent that "all of a sudden" cant compete....ala Joe Haden, Tramon Williams, Dwayne Bowe, our entire O Line, Kruger, Whitner, Gipson, Hartline....and many others....
When THIS MANY skilled veterans suddenly become baffoons and you refuse to make ANY adjustments and stubbornly stay the course.....then can you really blame just the talent level????
and he knows more about football in one brain cell than you will ever know.
so when you started on your career path doing whatever it is you do, did you know everything there is to know about your job in your first year? no learning curve? no OTJ training?.......and now that you are a manager and have 10 dummies to manage and not all of them are good dummies,......
And I can say "for me", that Ive defended Farmer and Pettine 100%....all the way.....completely.....and I do understand what it takes. Ive bought several "distressed" businesses and flipped em, which is my thing. So Ive been there and done that for 26 years now....for real! I can tell you that Ive certainly made HUGE mistakes, but I also listen to any skilled/long term employees for ideas....and make adjustment after adjustment till things are right. Forcing a square peg into the ole round hole has NEVER worked anywhere....and even though Im not an NFL coach, I can tell you thats whats happening here.....
The one thing you dont have to be a Coach to see....is what I based this thread on.....obvious contradictions. Saying one thing and doing another. And holding very visible double standards within the team. Strong leadership doesnt waver, but it also has balls and can admit mistakes when they happen....
You cant say "were gonna play this guy cause we need to see what he can do".....then NOT play several others because you claim to already know what they can do......and claim to have transparency, then spew a bunch of crap that everyone knows is BS....
Yeah....he's in his second year and he's assembled a staff full of rookies(first mistake, right there). If he's to be successful, he HAS to look around at what successful coaches do and start doing it.....successful people surround themselves with successful people....and I dont see that happening.....I dont see adjustments....I dont even see him admitting there is a problem. He seems to think its just a few missed assignments.....and THAT is the troubling part.....and THAT is why Im playing armchair QB....Not because I think I know more than him about Coaching.... but because I know about leadership and being in charge of a turn around and its the same in business as it is in football.....and he doesnt look up to the task...
Maybe for his "first" HC job, he shouldnt have taken the most challenging one in the league....and if he's gonna tackle it, then he needs to do what good leaders do and get some people in here that know what the fuck they are doing. And when they dont do it right, he needs to say that and make them adjust......simple shit really.....even if it IS coming from my armchair(or office)(same diff)
I would argue that the GM "DID" bring in top ranked talent, but the coach refuses to even take it for a test drive.....and he clearly is playing players who arent playing well.....so, new job or not, if you are failing and you refuse to try something else, then maybe it IS the HC and not the talent....
Especially when you have very good talent that "all of a sudden" cant compete....ala Joe Haden, Tramon Williams, Dwayne Bowe, our entire O Line, Kruger, Whitner, Gipson, Hartline....and many others....
When THIS MANY skilled veterans suddenly become baffoons and you refuse to make ANY adjustments and stubbornly stay the course.....then can you really blame just the talent level????
And I can say "for me", that Ive defended Farmer and Pettine 100%....all the way.....completely.....and I do understand what it takes. Ive bought several "distressed" businesses and flipped em, which is my thing. So Ive been there and done that for 26 years now....for real! I can tell you that Ive certainly made HUGE mistakes, but I also listen to any skilled/long term employees for ideas....and make adjustment after adjustment till things are right. Forcing a square peg into the ole round hole has NEVER worked anywhere....and even though Im not an NFL coach, I can tell you thats whats happening here.....
The one thing you dont have to be a Coach to see....is what I based this thread on.....obvious contradictions. Saying one thing and doing another. And holding very visible double standards within the team. Strong leadership doesnt waver, but it also has balls and can admit mistakes when they happen....
You cant say "were gonna play this guy cause we need to see what he can do".....then NOT play several others because you claim to already know what they can do......and claim to have transparency, then spew a bunch of crap that everyone knows is BS....
Yeah....he's in his second year and he's assembled a staff full of rookies(first mistake, right there). If he's to be successful, he HAS to look around at what successful coaches do and start doing it.....successful people surround themselves with successful people....and I dont see that happening.....I dont see adjustments....I dont even see him admitting there is a problem. He seems to think its just a few missed assignments.....and THAT is the troubling part.....and THAT is why Im playing armchair QB....Not because I think I know more than him about Coaching.... but because I know about leadership and being in charge of a turn around and its the same in business as it is in football.....and he doesnt look up to the task...
Maybe for his "first" HC job, he shouldnt have taken the most challenging one in the league....and if he's gonna tackle it, then he needs to do what good leaders do and get some people in here that know what the fuck they are doing. And when they dont do it right, he needs to say that and make them adjust......simple shit really.....even if it IS coming from my armchair(or office)(same diff)
yeah, someone that knows what they are talking about. yeah.... great post....
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You make lots of very valid points Mudfly as usual, and fairly put. There is just something I'm not comfortable about seeing Pettine get axed when you correctly point out all the top guys are rookies in this business. That to me is the key mistake, but it's been made and we live in the now. If Pettine's record next year continues along the same path as the last 15 games then he has to go. Miktoxic imo is right when he says these guys have got to learn and grow. It's a brutal job to be in and they don't get given long, but 1.5 years isn't long enough. Other factors I think should be considered are our schedule this year and the fact that the AFC North is a tough division.
What I really liked about your argument was that it was built around inconsistencies, and there certainly do appear to be some glaring ones now you point them out, and let's hope he sorts that out because the clock is certainly ticking for Pettine. Haslam isn't known for patience even though he is on record for saying he won't fire Pettine or Farmer no matter what happens this year.
I guess the key for me is that very few really successful teams have been built around the hiring and firing model and 5 HCs in 9 years goes a long way to explain to me why we are still are where we don't want to be.
You make lots of very valid points Mudfly as usual, and fairly put. There is just something I'm not comfortable about seeing Pettine get axed when you correctly point out all the top guys are rookies in this business. That to me is the key mistake, but it's been made and we live in the now. If Pettine's record next year continues along the same path as the last 15 games then he has to go. Miktoxic imo is right when he says these guys have got to learn and grow. It's a brutal job to be in and they don't get given long, but 1.5 years isn't long enough. Other factors I think should be considered are our schedule this year and the fact that the AFC North is a tough division.
What I really liked about your argument was that it was built around inconsistencies, and there certainly do appear to be some glaring ones now you point them out, and let's hope he sorts that out because the clock is certainly ticking for Pettine. Haslam isn't known for patience even though he is on record for saying he won't fire Pettine or Farmer no matter what happens this year.
I guess the key for me is that very few really successful teams have been built around the hiring and firing model and 5 HCs in 9 years goes a long way to explain to me why we are still are where we don't want to be.
yeah well, all those head coaches we had were terrible. Not everyone is hc material. Do you see any of these former browns coaches since 99 hired by another organization because i don't. Oh wait a minute. The chiefs hired cronnell...How did that work out. Not a one coach we hired since 99 has been hc material and it is based on facts. Maybe the gm's had alot to do with it also because i don't see any former browns players going to the hall of fame either. However most of the teams in the nfl have a pretty good roster and i don't see any former cleveland browns hc's in the mix for a job.
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agree with a lot have said in response to my post defending this regime.
so pettine is 10 years removed from being a hs coach? how long was holmgren removed from coaching when everyone on here (except me AHAH!) exclaimed him the second coming of christ and the savior of the franchise and was hired? so experience means shit in my eyes.
did anyone of you bone heads ever think that the reason he doesn't admit fault or is very 'egotistical' (which i don't see at all) is that he is learning from other pros, just in this specific case with the media. who's the best at it? yep. belichick. who did pettine's teams play against? yep, belichick.
do yourself a favor and watch the 30/30 on belichick and the 96 browns. all those so called rookie coaches went on to become somebody more significant that what we've had since the move. and yet we have to nitpick someone a year and a half in. man if half of us had this type of criticism while on the job there'd prob be a lot more dead people at mcdonalds everyday.
haslam is a biz man and i think he'll live up to his word and give these guys another year, whether you like it or not. and then when they start gelling and winning watch all you cats change your tune.
uh you do know that half those guys are hurt, correct?
I'm not sure what your point is with Holmgren...because it seems to be making mine? Holmgren was never our HC, we hired for a job in which he had absolutely zero experience. Being a good HC doesn't mean you're going to be a good GM/President/what have you. To quote the immortal Mitch Hedberg, that's like saying "oh, so you're a cook...can you farm?" Success in one field doesn't equate success in a different, yet related, field.
Haslam is a business man who also fired a HC after one year...and Chud's team did a whole lot more with a whole lot less. In case you forgot, we were 17th on offense and 9th on defense in Chud's lone year. So, I don't think Haslam is too worried about "living up to his word".
They won't start "gelling and winning" when they are trying to force square pegs into round holes. That's the point. If Pettine becomes successful - more power to him. That's what I, and everyone else, wants. But he won't find any success until he stops his high school bullshit like playing his favorites and letting his dumbass friends be defensive coordinator with no repercussions. Stop fucking around with cutesy sub-packages on defense, stop playing the "hot" hand in the offensive backfield. Put the most talented players on the field and scale back down to a base defense. Put the ball in Duke's hands 20 times a game through runs and screens, exploit the defense when they try to bring six every play, deliver two early strikes to Benjamin when you read cover none to keep the defense honest, then run stretch plays sideline to sideline and let Duke plant his foot, make his cut and go.
Just play smart football and stop trying to outwit the other coach - because you're not going to do that.
I'm not sure what your point is with Holmgren...because it seems to be making mine? Holmgren was never our HC, we hired for a job in which he had absolutely zero experience. Being a good HC doesn't mean you're going to be a good GM/President/what have you. To quote the immortal Mitch Hedberg, that's like saying "oh, so you're a cook...can you farm?" Success in one field doesn't equate success in a different, yet related, field.
Haslam is a business man who also fired a HC after one year...and Chud's team did a whole lot more with a whole lot less. In case you forgot, we were 17th on offense and 9th on defense in Chud's lone year. So, I don't think Haslam is too worried about "living up to his word".
They won't start "gelling and winning" when they are trying to force square pegs into round holes. That's the point. If Pettine becomes successful - more power to him. That's what I, and everyone else, wants. But he won't find any success until he stops his high school bullshit like playing his favorites and letting his dumbass friends be defensive coordinator with no repercussions. Stop fucking around with cutesy sub-packages on defense, stop playing the "hot" hand in the offensive backfield. Put the most talented players on the field and scale back down to a base defense. Put the ball in Duke's hands 20 times a game through runs and screens, exploit the defense when they try to bring six every play, deliver two early strikes to Benjamin when you read cover none to keep the defense honest, then run stretch plays sideline to sideline and let Duke plant his foot, make his cut and go.
Just play smart football and stop trying to outwit the other coach - because you're not going to do that.
agree with this.
but to call for his head after a year 1/2 is quite assholish, which a lot of you are being.
and btw it didn't matter that holmgren wasn't hired as HC. he was hailed as a saviour by you and everyone else who now has their finger on the 'eject' button for a squad trying to find their way. when did o'neill become pettine's best friend? (asking) what he he married to his sister or something? you think these guys don't see/read the massive storm of shit flying their way by every so-called reporter and disgruntled fan?
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blame the HC for lack of talent?
ummm...........
i'd rather our GM take a chance on someone i've heard of who's played for a power ranked team
can't blame pettine for farmer's shortcomings. can't blame pettine when the pick can't even make the practice squad.
I would argue that the GM "DID" bring in top ranked talent, but the coach refuses to even take it for a test drive.....and he clearly is playing players who arent playing well.....so, new job or not, if you are failing and you refuse to try something else, then maybe it IS the HC and not the talent....
Especially when you have very good talent that "all of a sudden" cant compete....ala Joe Haden, Tramon Williams, Dwayne Bowe, our entire O Line, Kruger, Whitner, Gipson, Hartline....and many others....
When THIS MANY skilled veterans suddenly become baffoons and you refuse to make ANY adjustments and stubbornly stay the course.....then can you really blame just the talent level????
and he knows more about football in one brain cell than you will ever know.
so when you started on your career path doing whatever it is you do, did you know everything there is to know about your job in your first year? no learning curve? no OTJ training?.......and now that you are a manager and have 10 dummies to manage and not all of them are good dummies,......
And I can say "for me", that Ive defended Farmer and Pettine 100%....all the way.....completely.....and I do understand what it takes. Ive bought several "distressed" businesses and flipped em, which is my thing. So Ive been there and done that for 26 years now....for real! I can tell you that Ive certainly made HUGE mistakes, but I also listen to any skilled/long term employees for ideas....and make adjustment after adjustment till things are right. Forcing a square peg into the ole round hole has NEVER worked anywhere....and even though Im not an NFL coach, I can tell you thats whats happening here.....
The one thing you dont have to be a Coach to see....is what I based this thread on.....obvious contradictions. Saying one thing and doing another. And holding very visible double standards within the team. Strong leadership doesnt waver, but it also has balls and can admit mistakes when they happen....
You cant say "were gonna play this guy cause we need to see what he can do".....then NOT play several others because you claim to already know what they can do......and claim to have transparency, then spew a bunch of crap that everyone knows is BS....
Yeah....he's in his second year and he's assembled a staff full of rookies(first mistake, right there). If he's to be successful, he HAS to look around at what successful coaches do and start doing it.....successful people surround themselves with successful people....and I dont see that happening.....I dont see adjustments....I dont even see him admitting there is a problem. He seems to think its just a few missed assignments.....and THAT is the troubling part.....and THAT is why Im playing armchair QB....Not because I think I know more than him about Coaching.... but because I know about leadership and being in charge of a turn around and its the same in business as it is in football.....and he doesnt look up to the task...
Maybe for his "first" HC job, he shouldnt have taken the most challenging one in the league....and if he's gonna tackle it, then he needs to do what good leaders do and get some people in here that know what the fuck they are doing. And when they dont do it right, he needs to say that and make them adjust......simple shit really.....even if it IS coming from my armchair(or office)(same diff)
I would argue that the GM "DID" bring in top ranked talent, but the coach refuses to even take it for a test drive.....and he clearly is playing players who arent playing well.....so, new job or not, if you are failing and you refuse to try something else, then maybe it IS the HC and not the talent....
Especially when you have very good talent that "all of a sudden" cant compete....ala Joe Haden, Tramon Williams, Dwayne Bowe, our entire O Line, Kruger, Whitner, Gipson, Hartline....and many others....
When THIS MANY skilled veterans suddenly become baffoons and you refuse to make ANY adjustments and stubbornly stay the course.....then can you really blame just the talent level????
And I can say "for me", that Ive defended Farmer and Pettine 100%....all the way.....completely.....and I do understand what it takes. Ive bought several "distressed" businesses and flipped em, which is my thing. So Ive been there and done that for 26 years now....for real! I can tell you that Ive certainly made HUGE mistakes, but I also listen to any skilled/long term employees for ideas....and make adjustment after adjustment till things are right. Forcing a square peg into the ole round hole has NEVER worked anywhere....and even though Im not an NFL coach, I can tell you thats whats happening here.....
The one thing you dont have to be a Coach to see....is what I based this thread on.....obvious contradictions. Saying one thing and doing another. And holding very visible double standards within the team. Strong leadership doesnt waver, but it also has balls and can admit mistakes when they happen....
You cant say "were gonna play this guy cause we need to see what he can do".....then NOT play several others because you claim to already know what they can do......and claim to have transparency, then spew a bunch of crap that everyone knows is BS....
Yeah....he's in his second year and he's assembled a staff full of rookies(first mistake, right there). If he's to be successful, he HAS to look around at what successful coaches do and start doing it.....successful people surround themselves with successful people....and I dont see that happening.....I dont see adjustments....I dont even see him admitting there is a problem. He seems to think its just a few missed assignments.....and THAT is the troubling part.....and THAT is why Im playing armchair QB....Not because I think I know more than him about Coaching.... but because I know about leadership and being in charge of a turn around and its the same in business as it is in football.....and he doesnt look up to the task...
Maybe for his "first" HC job, he shouldnt have taken the most challenging one in the league....and if he's gonna tackle it, then he needs to do what good leaders do and get some people in here that know what the fuck they are doing. And when they dont do it right, he needs to say that and make them adjust......simple shit really.....even if it IS coming from my armchair(or office)(same diff)
Mud,
You outdid yourself with this thread & post & I agree totally. Pettine has some GREAT resources inside AND outside the locker room that he has REFUSED to utilize. In fact, his failure to properly utilize talent & knowledge will be his undoing.
I am one who believes we have far more talent than it appears. Improper use of that talent is killing production & morale.
I'll ride this out, but Jimmy needs to make changes with some knowledgeable consultants giving input. We MUST get it right next time.
Mike
IN DORSEY I TRUST -
I'm not sure what your point is with Holmgren...because it seems to be making mine? Holmgren was never our HC, we hired for a job in which he had absolutely zero experience. Being a good HC doesn't mean you're going to be a good GM/President/what have you. To quote the immortal Mitch Hedberg, that's like saying "oh, so you're a cook...can you farm?" Success in one field doesn't equate success in a different, yet related, field.
Haslam is a business man who also fired a HC after one year...and Chud's team did a whole lot more with a whole lot less. In case you forgot, we were 17th on offense and 9th on defense in Chud's lone year. So, I don't think Haslam is too worried about "living up to his word".
They won't start "gelling and winning" when they are trying to force square pegs into round holes. That's the point. If Pettine becomes successful - more power to him. That's what I, and everyone else, wants. But he won't find any success until he stops his high school bullshit like playing his favorites and letting his dumbass friends be defensive coordinator with no repercussions. Stop fucking around with cutesy sub-packages on defense, stop playing the "hot" hand in the offensive backfield. Put the most talented players on the field and scale back down to a base defense. Put the ball in Duke's hands 20 times a game through runs and screens, exploit the defense when they try to bring six every play, deliver two early strikes to Benjamin when you read cover none to keep the defense honest, then run stretch plays sideline to sideline and let Duke plant his foot, make his cut and go.
Just play smart football and stop trying to outwit the other coach - because you're not going to do that.
agree with this.
but to call for his head after a year 1/2 is quite assholish, which a lot of you are being.
and btw it didn't matter that holmgren wasn't hired as HC. he was hailed as a saviour by you and everyone else who now has their finger on the 'eject' button for a squad trying to find their way. when did o'neill become pettine's best friend? (asking) what he he married to his sister or something? you think these guys don't see/read the massive storm of shit flying their way by every so-called reporter and disgruntled fan?
agree with this.
but to call for his head after a year 1/2 is quite assholish, which a lot of you are being.
you think these guys don't see/read the massive storm of shit flying their way by every so-called reporter and disgruntled fan?
I hope they do see/read it....perhaps they'll rethink some things....
Ive cooled down some and want to say(again) that I dread another change at HC....yes yes my opening post says to can him now, but Ill back up on that some....though SOMETHING has to change....
I honestly do think Pettine could succeed "if" he had some help.....but there is no one there with NFL experience to act as a mentor or sounding board for the coaches or GM.....also no one there qualified to judge any of them on job performance....
And Pettine needs to adjust his personnel some. We have back up corners playing man against the best receivers in the league and coach expects them to execute the same as a Haden. He needs to understand the limits of his players and "adjust", instead of saying a guy like Bademosi just isnt executing.....guess what, a guy like Bademosi should NOT be covering an Antonio Brown w/o help. And if a coach cant see that and adjust to his(and theirs) personnel......blech
So for now, I say OK let Pettine finish the year....and with some quality adjustments....move forward.....But how about:
1) Getting some more quality NFL experience on that staff....both coaching and in the FO......they need it bad....
2) Lets see some coaching adjustments...and progress.....supposed to be at graduate level right now....
3) Lets see some consistency with how these players are brought up....
4) Lets see some faith in the players they ALL agreed to bring in......
5) Lets see some improvement before the end of the year.....we spiraled down last year and still havent righted the ship...
So...losing out(again) would not sit well at all.....but finishing strong could buy another year of support from this fan...
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I would argue that the GM "DID" bring in top ranked talent, but the coach refuses to even take it for a test drive.....and he clearly is playing players who arent playing well.....so, new job or not, if you are failing and you refuse to try something else, then maybe it IS the HC and not the talent....
Especially when you have very good talent that "all of a sudden" cant compete....ala Joe Haden, Tramon Williams, Dwayne Bowe, our entire O Line, Kruger, Whitner, Gipson, Hartline....and many others....
When THIS MANY skilled veterans suddenly become baffoons and you refuse to make ANY adjustments and stubbornly stay the course.....then can you really blame just the talent level????
And I can say "for me", that Ive defended Farmer and Pettine 100%....all the way.....completely.....and I do understand what it takes. Ive bought several "distressed" businesses and flipped em, which is my thing. So Ive been there and done that for 26 years now....for real! I can tell you that Ive certainly made HUGE mistakes, but I also listen to any skilled/long term employees for ideas....and make adjustment after adjustment till things are right. Forcing a square peg into the ole round hole has NEVER worked anywhere....and even though Im not an NFL coach, I can tell you thats whats happening here.....
The one thing you dont have to be a Coach to see....is what I based this thread on.....obvious contradictions. Saying one thing and doing another. And holding very visible double standards within the team. Strong leadership doesnt waver, but it also has balls and can admit mistakes when they happen....
You cant say "were gonna play this guy cause we need to see what he can do".....then NOT play several others because you claim to already know what they can do......and claim to have transparency, then spew a bunch of crap that everyone knows is BS....
Yeah....he's in his second year and he's assembled a staff full of rookies(first mistake, right there). If he's to be successful, he HAS to look around at what successful coaches do and start doing it.....successful people surround themselves with successful people....and I dont see that happening.....I dont see adjustments....I dont even see him admitting there is a problem. He seems to think its just a few missed assignments.....and THAT is the troubling part.....and THAT is why Im playing armchair QB....Not because I think I know more than him about Coaching.... but because I know about leadership and being in charge of a turn around and its the same in business as it is in football.....and he doesnt look up to the task...
Maybe for his "first" HC job, he shouldnt have taken the most challenging one in the league....and if he's gonna tackle it, then he needs to do what good leaders do and get some people in here that know what the fuck they are doing. And when they dont do it right, he needs to say that and make them adjust......simple shit really.....even if it IS coming from my armchair(or office)(same diff)
Mud,
You outdid yourself with this thread & post & I agree totally. Pettine has some GREAT resources inside AND outside the locker room that he has REFUSED to utilize. In fact, his failure to properly utilize talent & knowledge will be his undoing.
I am one who believes we have far more talent than it appears. Improper use of that talent is killing production & morale.
I'll ride this out, but Jimmy needs to make changes with some knowledgeable consultants giving input. We MUST get it right next time.
Mike
I am one who believes we have far more talent than it appears. Improper use of that talent is killing production & morale.
I'll ride this out, but Jimmy needs to make changes with some knowledgeable consultants giving input. We MUST get it right next time.
Mike
You said it buddy.....
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It's all been figured out. Pettine wants to lose. He loves answering questions on why the team sucks. He surely never wants to coach again. He's all in for submarining his coaches futures. Or wait maybe the guy who watches practice, the games and the game film may actually have a better grasp on the talent level on the team the say maybe a dude on the interweb.
The team is sooooo talented that the best player was being shopped for a first and a third
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It's all been figured out. Pettine wants to lose. He loves answering questions on why the team sucks. He surely never wants to coach again. He's all in for submarining his coaches futures. Or wait maybe the guy who watches practice, the games and the game film may actually have a better grasp on the talent level on the team the say maybe a dude on the interweb.
The team is sooooo talented that the best player was being shopped for a first and a third
It's all been figured out. Pettine wants to lose. He loves answering questions on why the team sucks. He surely never wants to coach again. He's all in for submarining his coaches futures. Or wait maybe the guy who watches practice, the games and the game film may actually have a better grasp on the talent level on the team the say maybe a dude on the interweb.
The team is sooooo talented that the best player was being shopped for a first and a third
Hey, look, its Mike Pettine.
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