I wonder?
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I think the proof is in the pudding. Look at the players the Browns did draft that did go to other teams:
Where is Brady Quinn now?
Where is Weeden?
Where is Richardson?
What about Robiskie.
Sheard and Ward are playing basically on the same level where they are now as when they played here....decent.
Kam Wimbley had been serviceable elsewhere but was a bust here.
Perhaps the same could be said for Gerard Warren.
Braylon and K2 didn't do much elsewhere.
So, I think the answer is a definitive NO. If the best you could come up with was Wimbley or Warren....you have a weak ass case.
Yet...you are so certain that RIGHT NOW we have all these great players who aren't being utilized correctly and our woes are all on the coaches.....correct?????
Yet...you are so certain that RIGHT NOW we have all these great players who aren't being utilized correctly and our woes are all on the coaches.....correct?????
I wouldn't say we have great players, nor would I say the blame is entirely on the coaches - but I think Farmer has done a better job doing his duties than Pettine/O'Neil has theirs.
Gilbert and Manziel are picks that don't seem in line with Farmer's draft strategy...and they seem to be the two biggest question marks. But I think picks like Shelton, Duke, Crow, Cooper, even Erving, are solid foundational picks that are on the same level of talent as the rest of the league.
I don't see a giant talent differential between our starting players and Baltimore's backups - I see a discipline and scheme issue.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Yet...you are so certain that RIGHT NOW we have all these great players who aren't being utilized correctly and our woes are all on the coaches.....correct?????
I wouldn't say we have great players, nor would I say the blame is entirely on the coaches - but I think Farmer has done a better job doing his duties than Pettine/O'Neil has theirs.
Gilbert and Manziel are picks that don't seem in line with Farmer's draft strategy...and they seem to be the two biggest question marks. But I think picks like Shelton, Duke, Crow, Cooper, even Erving, are solid foundational picks that are on the same level of talent as the rest of the league.
I don't see a giant talent differential between our starting players and Baltimore's backups - I see a discipline and scheme issue.
I wouldn't say we have great players, nor would I say the blame is entirely on the coaches - but I think Farmer has done a better job doing his duties than Pettine/O'Neil has theirs.
Gilbert and Manziel are picks that don't seem in line with Farmer's draft strategy...and they seem to be the two biggest question marks. But I think picks like Shelton, Duke, Crow, Cooper, even Erving, are solid foundational picks that are on the same level of talent as the rest of the league.
I don't see a giant talent differential between our starting players and Baltimore's backups - I see a discipline and scheme issue.
AMEN! I will add, schemes that are apparently not being acknowledged or adjusted by said coaching staff.
Mike
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Which one player in this upcoming draft do you predict will be good enough to make the Browns good enough for the playoffs? Pick one.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Is it possible The Cleveland Browns fuck up the high draft picks they draft? If these same players went to another team would they be good, if not great players right now? If we would have drafted Julio Jones would he be a classic Browns sucky wide receiver or the star he currently is? Do we as a team fuck up our draft picks some how? It just dosen't seem possible that all of these high draft pick that we get are just mistakes... they were high on the boards before we picked them...I just don't get it.
I think the proof is in the pudding. Look at the players the Browns did draft that did go to other teams:
Where is Brady Quinn now?
Where is Weeden?
Where is Richardson?
What about Robiskie.
Sheard and Ward are playing basically on the same level where they are now as when they played here....decent.
Kam Wimbley had been serviceable elsewhere but was a bust here.
Perhaps the same could be said for Gerard Warren.
Braylon and K2 didn't do much elsewhere.
So, I think the answer is a definitive NO. If the best you could come up with was Wimbley or Warren....you have a weak ass case.
There's way too many variables to throw a blanket statement one way or the other.
There are picks like Weeden who are head scratchers at best - those are ones that would fuck up anywhere. These are on the GM. These guys shouldn't be picked.
There are picks like Wimbley or Mingo or Erving who are no set NFL position, potential picks - those could go either way. These are on the coaching staff. These are guys that fit a good portion of the boxes for a good draft pick - but either had size or position issues.
There are picks like Gilbert who are pure athletic talents with motivation, work ethic issues who fit our system perfectly - then bust. These are about half and half GM and coaching. These are guys that, on paper, are fantastic talents but are mentally lacking. A good GM should only take a flier like this if he's certain the guy can overcome, but the coaching staff also has to put this guy in a position to succeed.
There are picks like Richardson who should be HOF players and then bust hard. These are on nobody. If Richardson had gone elsewhere and found success, it would be on the coaching staff. But it was pretty hard to predict that Richardson would be THAT bad. ( You know, unless you're me...)
Every player in the draft has the talent to succeed, or else they wouldn't have made it to the draft. Not every player in the draft has the mental makeup or work ethic to succeed in the NFL. I think we've been guilty of taking guys in the past who had the talent, but didn't have the work ethic or football IQ. That's all it comes down to it.
When we're debating the differences in Tom Brady and Brady Quinn, we're talking about an infinitesimal percentage difference in arm strength, accuracy, etc. If Brady throws 9/10 passes with perfect accuracy, Quinn throws 7 or 8. If Brady chucks the ball 60 yards, Quinn throws it 57. The gap is how they approach and understand the game. That's it. Same with any player at any position.
(The above is just an example of franchise QB vs. joe schmo, not a true comparison of Brady vs. Quinn)
That's why I don't have a problem with most of Farmer's picks, with the exception of Justin Gilbert - all of these guys are said to possess high football intelligence. That's the common denominator. Farmer is taking guys who are players, not athletes.
There's way too many variables to throw a blanket statement one way or the other.
There are picks like Weeden who are head scratchers at best - those are ones that would fuck up anywhere. These are on the GM. These guys shouldn't be picked.
There are picks like Wimbley or Mingo or Erving who are no set NFL position, potential picks - those could go either way. These are on the coaching staff. These are guys that fit a good portion of the boxes for a good draft pick - but either had size or position issues.
There are picks like Gilbert who are pure athletic talents with motivation, work ethic issues who fit our system perfectly - then bust. These are about half and half GM and coaching. These are guys that, on paper, are fantastic talents but are mentally lacking. A good GM should only take a flier like this if he's certain the guy can overcome, but the coaching staff also has to put this guy in a position to succeed.
There are picks like Richardson who should be HOF players and then bust hard. These are on nobody. If Richardson had gone elsewhere and found success, it would be on the coaching staff. But it was pretty hard to predict that Richardson would be THAT bad. ( You know, unless you're me...)
Every player in the draft has the talent to succeed, or else they wouldn't have made it to the draft. Not every player in the draft has the mental makeup or work ethic to succeed in the NFL. I think we've been guilty of taking guys in the past who had the talent, but didn't have the work ethic or football IQ. That's all it comes down to it.
When we're debating the differences in Tom Brady and Brady Quinn, we're talking about an infinitesimal percentage difference in arm strength, accuracy, etc. If Brady throws 9/10 passes with perfect accuracy, Quinn throws 7 or 8. If Brady chucks the ball 60 yards, Quinn throws it 57. The gap is how they approach and understand the game. That's it. Same with any player at any position.
(The above is just an example of franchise QB vs. joe schmo, not a true comparison of Brady vs. Quinn)
That's why I don't have a problem with most of Farmer's picks, with the exception of Justin Gilbert - all of these guys are said to possess high football intelligence. That's the common denominator. Farmer is taking guys who are players, not athletes.
All good stuff.
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Yet...you are so certain that RIGHT NOW we have all these great players who aren't being utilized correctly and our woes are all on the coaches.....correct?????
I wouldn't say we have great players, nor would I say the blame is entirely on the coaches - but I think Farmer has done a better job doing his duties than Pettine/O'Neil has theirs.
Gilbert and Manziel are picks that don't seem in line with Farmer's draft strategy...and they seem to be the two biggest question marks. But I think picks like Shelton, Duke, Crow, Cooper, even Erving, are solid foundational picks that are on the same level of talent as the rest of the league.
I don't see a giant talent differential between our starting players and Baltimore's backups - I see a discipline and scheme issue.
I wouldn't say we have great players, nor would I say the blame is entirely on the coaches - but I think Farmer has done a better job doing his duties than Pettine/O'Neil has theirs.
Gilbert and Manziel are picks that don't seem in line with Farmer's draft strategy...and they seem to be the two biggest question marks. But I think picks like Shelton, Duke, Crow, Cooper, even Erving, are solid foundational picks that are on the same level of talent as the rest of the league.
I don't see a giant talent differential between our starting players and Baltimore's backups - I see a discipline and scheme issue.
I will go one further.....I am of the belief that is you take all 22 starters, the Browns have more overall talent by a fairly wide margin over the Steelers. Steelers have some obvious edges: QBs, WRs,
But overall unit talent.....Browns have the edge.
Now.....QB is a critical unit with the widest edge for them for sure. Then there is the culture/management/coaching. Steelers have a vast edge.....and to me that and their QB are the most critical factors.
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Which one player in this upcoming draft do you predict will be good enough to make the Browns good enough for the playoffs? Pick one.
WSS
Which one player in this upcoming draft do you predict will be good enough to make the Browns good enough for the playoffs? Pick one.
WSS
Otto Graham.
Seriously, there is not one.....because there is no Otto Graham, John Unitas, Joe Namath, John Elway, Dan Marino, Peyton Manning in this draft. (or a Luck, Newton....or Jameis Winston)
Bosa seems to be the best talent. Beyond that are some OL. QBs like Lynch, Goff are not considered on the level as anyone mentioned above)
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I wouldn't say we have great players, nor would I say the blame is entirely on the coaches - but I think Farmer has done a better job doing his duties than Pettine/O'Neil has theirs.
Gilbert and Manziel are picks that don't seem in line with Farmer's draft strategy...and they seem to be the two biggest question marks. But I think picks like Shelton, Duke, Crow, Cooper, even Erving, are solid foundational picks that are on the same level of talent as the rest of the league.
I don't see a giant talent differential between our starting players and Baltimore's backups - I see a discipline and scheme issue.
I will go one further.....I am of the belief that is you take all 22 starters, the Browns have more overall talent by a fairly wide margin over the Steelers. Steelers have some obvious edges: QBs, WRs,
But overall unit talent.....Browns have the edge.
Now.....QB is a critical unit with the widest edge for them for sure. Then there is the culture/management/coaching. Steelers have a vast edge.....and to me that and their QB are the most critical factors.
I will go one further.....I am of the belief that is you take all 22 starters, the Browns have more overall talent by a fairly wide margin over the Steelers. Steelers have some obvious edges: QBs, WRs,
But overall unit talent.....Browns have the edge.
Now.....QB is a critical unit with the widest edge for them for sure. Then there is the culture/management/coaching. Steelers have a vast edge.....and to me that and their QB are the most critical factors.
I disagree. I would take their front 7 over ours.
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I will go one further.....I am of the belief that is you take all 22 starters, the Browns have more overall talent by a fairly wide margin over the Steelers. Steelers have some obvious edges: QBs, WRs,
But overall unit talent.....Browns have the edge.
Now.....QB is a critical unit with the widest edge for them for sure. Then there is the culture/management/coaching. Steelers have a vast edge.....and to me that and their QB are the most critical factors.
I disagree. I would take their front 7 over ours.
I disagree. I would take their front 7 over ours.
It would be very close at best.
Again....based on pure talent....not on what they do. With Jim O'Neil at DC you could bring back the Steel Curtain and that front 7 would probably look like ours.
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Which one player in this upcoming draft do you predict will be good enough to make the Browns good enough for the playoffs? Pick one.
WSS
Otto Graham.
Seriously, there is not one.....because there is no Otto Graham, John Unitas, Joe Namath, John Elway, Dan Marino, Peyton Manning in this draft. (or a Luck, Newton....or Jameis Winston)
Bosa seems to be the best talent. Beyond that are some OL. QBs like Lynch, Goff are not considered on the level as anyone mentioned above)
So you believe it's the quarterback position which has been the source of our problems? I would disagree.Otto Graham.
Seriously, there is not one.....because there is no Otto Graham, John Unitas, Joe Namath, John Elway, Dan Marino, Peyton Manning in this draft. (or a Luck, Newton....or Jameis Winston)
Bosa seems to be the best talent. Beyond that are some OL. QBs like Lynch, Goff are not considered on the level as anyone mentioned above)
And I would strongly disagree that the guy who will be the guy is in the upcoming draft
WSS
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So you believe it's the quarterback position which has been the source of our problems? I would disagree.Otto Graham.
Seriously, there is not one.....because there is no Otto Graham, John Unitas, Joe Namath, John Elway, Dan Marino, Peyton Manning in this draft. (or a Luck, Newton....or Jameis Winston)
Bosa seems to be the best talent. Beyond that are some OL. QBs like Lynch, Goff are not considered on the level as anyone mentioned above)
And I would strongly disagree that the guy who will be the guy is in the upcoming draft
WSS
So you believe it's the quarterback position which has been the source of our problems? I would disagree.
WSS
No....not the entire source. But, anyone can tell you that having a franchise QB is the most important thing for a football team.
But, hell, you are right......having Tom Brady and Joe Montana together on this team could not make up for the poor defensive scheme the Browns run.
The answer to your question really is: there is NOT just one person that could be drafted and brought in here to make this team a playoff team. The problems with the coaching etc. make the problems much deeper than just one player could cure.
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There certainly does seem to be a very high probability that since 99, with such a high % of losses and losing seasons, the blame must lie with the GM and/or coaching staff. Taking the good arguments laid out above it would appear that currently Pettine and probably O'Neil are largely at fault. The key next question for me is, does Pettine have the potential to become a good HC (given his rookie status)? Even if the answer is yes he might still get cut if Gruden pushes his desire to lead the Browns. Actually, more fundamental to this is why have our owners hired so many HC failures and fired the only decent one we have? I guess that is all in the past, but we can learn from the past so hopefully Haslam will have done so.
Even with our mighty tough schedule this year it is hard to defend our current run of form so Pettine must know his lifespan as HC of the Browns is fast coming to an end. However, please try not to choose another rookie HC if at all possible.
One other point. There seems to be a number of posters (guessing younger ones) who are thoroughly upset at our standing in the game and I have read a number of comments about starting the franchise afresh. Even if that was possible (and I don't think it is and better not be) the Cleveland Browns are one of the great historic franchises of American football. The current extended run of poor form is not a reflection on Cleveland or its terrifically loyal fan base (proven in my mind to be the best in America because of this recent drought). It comes down to owners picking the right GM and HC imo. For most of the last 16 years that has been the problem. Any franchise can turn it around- look at the Patriots. Our time will come again.
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