Solitary confinement
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lets save tax dollars and ship all of the worst prisoners over to cuba. turn around is fair play screw u castro. fukcin commi
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Thanks Al-
While I agree that these criminals can be rehabilitated, I have two concerns:
1. Behavioral experimentation with the safety of the general populace.
2. Un-rehabilitation.
1. With any sort of treatment we are giving these criminals ranging from solitary confinement to the opposite end of the spectrum, it has to be understood that the experiment doesn't officially begin until these guys are released back out of the system. I have a major problem with that.
2. Though laws exist against discrimination, there are stigmas associated with a convicted felon. Just the breaks, folks. That "detached from society" feeling whether direct or indirect can have as severe psychological effects as solitary confinement can have while the prisoner is in jail. This can lead the former "patient" down the road of un-rehabilitation very quickly. And especially if he returns instinctively to his old stomping grounds with his old influences. It's a very tough cycle to break. Instincts were one of the main topics in the article.
1. With any sort of treatment we are giving these criminals ranging from solitary confinement to the opposite end of the spectrum, it has to be understood that the experiment doesn't officially begin until these guys are released back out of the system. I have a major problem with that.
2. Though laws exist against discrimination, there are stigmas associated with a convicted felon. Just the breaks, folks. That "detached from society" feeling whether direct or indirect can have as severe psychological effects as solitary confinement can have while the prisoner is in jail. This can lead the former "patient" down the road of un-rehabilitation very quickly. And especially if he returns instinctively to his old stomping grounds with his old influences. It's a very tough cycle to break. Instincts were one of the main topics in the article.
Fair points. But I guess the idea is that we can use prison policy to make criminals into complete miscreants, or we can try to make sure imprisonment isn't entirely a negative. If keeping prisoners busy with job training has as an equally positive (or as it appears, better) effect on prison safety, then it's clearly the wiser policy. Even if it doesn't have a huge effect on recidivism rates, it's got to be better than making the prison effect even worse by not letting a guy talk to anyone for five, six years.
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Douthat's take:
http://rossdouthat.theatlantic.com/archive...ncrime_trap.php
I thought this was a really good point:
The turn toward mass incarceration and tough sentencing was championed, largely by conservatives, in response to what amounted to a long period of emergency in American life: A murder rate that had doubled over twenty years, a robbery rate that had quintupled, an urban landscape that seemed increasingly ungovernable, and so on. And the turn worked: The estimates of its impact vary, but most scholars agree that increased incarceration played a substantial role in the plunging crime rates of the 1990s.
But as you might expect, a policy turn undertaken during a period of emergency will eventually produce diminishing returns - as Steven Levitt puts it, "the two-millionth criminal imprisoned is likely to impose a much smaller crime burden on society than the first prisoner" - even as it imposes substantial . And precisely because the tough-on-crime approach was largely vindicated by events, it's extremely difficult for elected officials to walk back from some of the dubious practices that have grown up around it - like, say, the possibly cruel-and-unusual use of long-term solitary confinement.
As for the Nixon-goes-to-China part of his argument, it's unfortunately so appealing that Douthat uses it too often, at least for hardcore conservatives to accept. Instead of seeing sane policy corrections, they think Douthat wants a Commie Nixon.
Also, I'm disappointed that Douthat didn't also mention the various conservative literary treatments of prison life. Evelyn Waugh roundly mocked "progressive" prison reform in Decline and Fall, and Tom Wolfe has an interesting depiction of contemporary US prison life in A Man in Full. Not that it would have added much to the policy discussion...they're just two good novels that ought to be mentioned more.
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So for the liberals.
Is it now time to devote the same vitriol toward Democrat governors and mayors and senators of states and cities in which these intolerable conditions and torture have been the norm for decades as you have for Dick Cheney over the couple cases of waterboarding in Gitmo?
Or not?
Oh and a quick show of hands....
Who feels good enough about the cons "humanity" that you'd welcome them alone in your house with the wife and kids?
Anyone? Anyone?
WSS
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I'm against prison luxuries. No TV or weight rooms. At the most, a simple treadmill should be provided for exercise. No a/c (well maybe just enough to keep the temp from going above 90) and no heat (well keep it from getting below 55) It's not summer camp. Put them all to work.
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I'm against prison luxuries. No TV or weight rooms. At the most, a simple treadmill should be provided for exercise. No a/c (well maybe just enough to keep the temp from going above 90) and no heat (well keep it from getting below 55) It's not summer camp. Put them all to work.
I'm against prison luxuries. No TV or weight rooms. At the most, a simple treadmill should be provided for exercise. No a/c (well maybe just enough to keep the temp from going above 90) and no heat (well keep it from getting below 55) It's not summer camp. Put them all to work.
Bring back the chain gangs and fix the fuking roads.
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The New Yorker published an interesting, opinion-changing piece (for me) on solitary confinement. I definitely recommend you guys check it out.
Aloysius said:
The New Yorker published an interesting, opinion-changing piece (for me) on solitary confinement. I definitely recommend you guys check it out.Great article. It is the New Yorker, so should I have expected otherwise?
I've been against the death penalty and solitary confinement of human beings for some time now.
Actually I've thought this for a while.
As we get more and more "civilized" we're further removed from the animals in society and start to think they're more like us.
As the death penalty becomes abhorrent soon so will solitart and then a life sentence and then any incarceration at all.
Because we foolishly think that since we couldn't stand it it must be inhuman.
WSS
Treating people, ANY PEOPLE, in this manner makes you no better than the kidnappers, Stevie. Incarceration needn't, and shouldn't, involve torture. Which is what solitary confinement is. Nice stretch claiming incarceration will go away, too. Now THAT'S thinking rationally!
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So for the liberals.
Is it now time to devote the same vitriol toward Democrat governors and mayors and senators of states and cities in which these intolerable conditions and torture have been the norm for decades as you have for Dick Cheney over the couple cases of waterboarding in Gitmo?
Or not?
Oh and a quick show of hands....
Who feels good enough about the cons "humanity" that you'd welcome them alone in your house with the wife and kids?
Anyone? Anyone?
WSS
I must also comment on this sweet nugget of rationality.
Oh and a quick show of hands....
Who feels good enough about the cons "humanity" that you'd welcome them alone in your house with the wife and kids?
Anyone? Anyone?
WSS
How does being against torture suggest I want a con in my home?
Yet another stretch from the King of Contrarians.
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A frightening but true article. How can a Government justify treating human beings like that? I don't care what crime they committed, they are still human and can be rehabilitated. I hope that President Obama reads this article and takes action at least on the Federal level. These people need to be treated fairly and compassionately.
A frightening but true article. How can a Government justify treating human beings like that? I don't care what crime they committed, they are still human and can be rrehabilitated. I hope that President Obama reads this article and takes action at least on the Federal level. These people need to be treated fairly and compassionately.
Give me a fukcing break! Lets let the murderers and rapists alone, treat them with compassion, rehabilitate the dismemberer! ROFLMAO! You fukcing liberals are nuts, NUTS with a capital N! Screw the criminals. Our prison system is soft compared to most countries and you fukcing crybabies are complaining about this? GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY!
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A frightening but true article. How can a Government justify treating human beings like that? I don't care what crime they committed, they are still human and can be rrehabilitated. I hope that President Obama reads this article and takes action at least on the Federal level. These people need to be treated fairly and compassionately.
Give me a fukcing break! Lets let the murderers and rapists alone, treat them with compassion, rehabilitate the dismemberer! ROFLMAO! You fukcing liberals are nuts, NUTS with a capital N! Screw the criminals. Our prison system is soft compared to most countries and you fukcing crybabies are complaining about this? GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY!
Give me a fukcing break! Lets let the murderers and rapists alone, treat them with compassion, rehabilitate the dismemberer! ROFLMAO! You fukcing liberals are nuts, NUTS with a capital N! Screw the criminals. Our prison system is soft compared to most countries and you fukcing crybabies are complaining about this? GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY!
moron
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1. With any sort of treatment we are giving these criminals ranging from solitary confinement to the opposite end of the spectrum, it has to be understood that the experiment doesn't officially begin until these guys are released back out of the system. I have a major problem with that.
2. Though laws exist against discrimination, there are stigmas associated with a convicted felon. Just the breaks, folks. That "detached from society" feeling whether direct or indirect can have as severe psychological effects as solitary confinement can have while the prisoner is in jail. This can lead the former "patient" down the road of un-rehabilitation very quickly. And especially if he returns instinctively to his old stomping grounds with his old influences. It's a very tough cycle to break. Instincts were one of the main topics in the article.
Fair points. But I guess the idea is that we can use prison policy to make criminals into complete miscreants, or we can try to make sure imprisonment isn't entirely a negative. If keeping prisoners busy with job training has as an equally positive (or as it appears, better) effect on prison safety, then it's clearly the wiser policy. Even if it doesn't have a huge effect on recidivism rates, it's got to be better than making the prison effect even worse by not letting a guy talk to anyone for five, six years.
Aloysius said:
Fair points. But I guess the idea is that we can use prison policy to make criminals into complete miscreants, or we can try to make sure imprisonment isn't entirely a negative. If keeping prisoners busy with job training has as an equally positive (or as it appears, better) effect on prison safety, then it's clearly the wiser policy. Even if it doesn't have a huge effect on recidivism rates, it's got to be better than making the prison effect even worse by not letting a guy talk to anyone for five, six years.At both companies in which I was previously employed, we participated in work release programs. Had good guys & bad guys. Obviously a small sample size, but it really had to do with the individual's personality & not the existence or non-existence of the program. But then again, we had the good & bad types who didn't have to spend every night in jail too. Hard to say what the genesis for the problem is.
No doubt these programs make prisons safer & better functioning systems (which I'm all for), but my argument is that it may or may not keep the public safer (for reasons I previously pointed out).
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Aloysius said:
Fair points. But I guess the idea is that we can use prison policy to make criminals into complete miscreants, or we can try to make sure imprisonment isn't entirely a negative. If keeping prisoners busy with job training has as an equally positive (or as it appears, better) effect on prison safety, then it's clearly the wiser policy. Even if it doesn't have a huge effect on recidivism rates, it's got to be better than making the prison effect even worse by not letting a guy talk to anyone for five, six years.At both companies in which I was previously employed, we participated in work release programs. Had good guys & bad guys. Obviously a small sample size, but it really had to do with the individual's personality & not the existence or non-existence of the program. But then again, we had the good & bad types who didn't have to spend every night in jail too. Hard to say what the genesis for the problem is.
No doubt these programs make prisons safer & better functioning systems (which I'm all for), but my argument is that it may or may not keep the public safer (for reasons I previously pointed out).
No doubt these programs make prisons safer & better functioning systems (which I'm all for), but my argument is that it may or may not keep the public safer (for reasons I previously pointed out).
And I don't really disagree with your combination of confidence and skepticism. My problem is more a tactical one. As you can see in this thread, discussion of prison reform often is greeted with responses like, "You feel bad for murderers and rapists?! You're a sick, sick man, mz the pussy. I love you. -DH"
The problem with that is reform is also self-interested: even if we don't care about inmates' suffering, we don't want them to become pathological and, once released, strike out at us.
So even if the benefit may go primarily to the inmate, it's important to emphasize that this stuff is also for our benefit. It may not always work, but - on the other hand - solitary confinement seems to be a close to fail-safe way of making sure that the people we locked up to protect to public will end up harming us once they're freed.
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Al, if a prisoner was put into solitary for totally unjustified reasons, that would be torture, I figure, and wrong.
Illegal, I suppose. But evaluating the issue as a blanket statement, "solitary is wrong" just doesn't get me
all upset. Because in the case of hardened, dangerous inmates, it is the only way to assure the public's safety,
as well as other prisoner's and guard's safety.
We aren't talking about, who was it? Cool hand Luke? being thrown into a hole with a wooden box over it in
100 degree heat in a corner of the prison courtyard.
Although, I would be fine if the worst criminals in the justice system were tossed into the latter...
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Actually I've thought this for a while.
As we get more and more "civilized" we're further removed from the animals in society and start to think they're more like us.
As the death penalty becomes abhorrent soon so will solitart and then a life sentence and then any incarceration at all.
Because we foolishly think that since we couldn't stand it it must be inhuman.
Remember that a "man" capable of doing an act heinous enough to be sentenced to even life is not like us.
You don't get the death sentend (or life) for silly mistakes.
Reform isn't (or shouldn't be) the goal.
Safety of the truly innocent potential victims should be.
Too often they are sacrificed to our misdirected compassion.
WSS
Reform isn't (or shouldn't be) the goal.
In extreme cases, yes. But you cannot put people in jail for 5-10-15 years, not teach them anything, and then send them back into society. That is foolish and a curse on society.
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Al, if a prisoner was put into solitary for totally unjustified reasons, that would be torture, I figure, and wrong.
Illegal, I suppose. But evaluating the issue as a blanket statement, "solitary is wrong" just doesn't get me
all upset. Because in the case of hardened, dangerous inmates, it is the only way to assure the public's safety,
as well as other prisoner's and guard's safety.
We aren't talking about, who was it? Cool hand Luke? being thrown into a hole with a wooden box over it in
100 degree heat in a corner of the prison courtyard.
Although, I would be fine if the worst criminals in the justice system were tossed into the latter...
Al, if a prisoner was put into solitary for totally unjustified reasons, that would be torture, I figure, and wrong.
Illegal, I suppose. But evaluating the issue as a blanket statement, "solitary is wrong" just doesn't get me
all upset. Because in the case of hardened, dangerous inmates, it is the only way to assure the public's safety,
as well as other prisoner's and guard's safety.
We aren't talking about, who was it? Cool hand Luke? being thrown into a hole with a wooden box over it in
100 degree heat in a corner of the prison courtyard.
Although, I would be fine if the worst criminals in the justice system were tossed into the latter...
You obviously didn't read the article, shocking.
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It was too long. I don't care about it much. Hang em high. Saves money.
Obviously, you are adim.
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Aloy you should have known posting a journalistic op piece like that would elicit some of the more simplistic answers here.
Incarceration is the EASY answer and people who let revenge and anger fuel thier justification at likewise inhumane treatment are well simple.
there will always be crime of some sort but again the question is on correction of the problem. The why factor and how to correct financial/impulse/mental illness etc crime takes more work than say to incarcerate.
Do you correct a child effectively and teach them anything by just punishing them and putting them into some sort of solitary confinement?
Do you correct impulse decision making by punishment and solitary confinement?
Do you correct financially driven crimes by punishinment and solitary confinement?
Mental illness?
The simple answer for most people is they dont care about solving a problem, all they care about is not having to deal or help solve someone else's problem.
Isolation on that level is commonly and extensively been proven to be extremely unhealthy for humans basically torture. Aloy you know most people in this and many cultures dont care because of their more simplistic and out of sight out of mind ways of dealing with problems. They than find some child like anger justification based on some twisted eye for an eye rationality. Its ok to become the monsters if they do it first.... Makes perfect sense.
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It was too long. I don't care about it much. Hang em high. Saves money.
Obviously, you are adim.
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Well, that's as stupid a reach as you could ever muster, I'll bet.
All western folks were Muslim? Al Queda?
I don't think so. Go read a book and learn how to think.
PS. They used to hang the really bad guys in the Old West.
doi.
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I must also comment on this sweet nugget of rationality.
Oh and a quick show of hands....
Who feels good enough about the cons "humanity" that you'd welcome them alone in your house with the wife and kids?
Anyone? Anyone?
WSS
How does being against torture suggest I want a con in my home?
Yet another stretch from the King of Contrarians.
mz. said:
I must also comment on this sweet nugget of rationality.How does being against torture suggest I want a con in my home?
Yet another stretch from the King of Contrarians.
Because, I think about 85% of violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders.
So (if you recall) part of the discussion was on rehabilitation.
Two I have a hard time crying over the discomfort of animals who [fill in crime horror story of choice] and I worry a lot more about past and future actually innocent victims.
Three Again shall we take the pitchforks and torches to the offices of Democrat governors senators and mayors in places these prison "tortures" are commonplace?
Like you did with Cheney and the three instances of waterboarding?
WSS
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