Haslam calls mtg with upper management tonight
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Dude, come on. Are you really saying that our doughboy has had the same impact as Haloti Ngata did his rookie year?? Come on, it's not even close.
Yes, I'm saying that. Because statistically he has.
I think your problem is threefold - you are severely overvaluing Ngata's individual rookie season, you forget the Ravens defensive staff in 2006 and I also think you don't understand the role of a NT in a 3-4 scheme.
The 2006 Ravens defense is thought to have been one of the best, if not the best, defenses in NFL history. They allowed 12.6 points per game that season, which no other team has ever replicated. They also had longtime top-tier NT Kelly Gregg and 4x Pro Bowler Trevor Pryce on the defensive line, with a linebacking corps of Terrelle Suggs, Ray Lewis, Bart Scott and Adalius Thomas and two Pro Bowl corners in Samari Rolle and Chris McAlister. Oh, and also some guy named Ed Reed.
Secondly, Ngata played as a 3-tech DT in the Ravens 4-3 for much of that year, where he faced less double teams and was able to move about more freely. As a true 3-4 NT, Shelton is asked to eat up space, take double teams, and has a two gap responsibility, things that Ngata did not have to worry about in his rookie year.
Thirdly, the Ngata career arc is thought to be the ideal way to progress a young NT. Typically, rookie NT's don't possess the experience and strength to hold down the fort as a true NT for their first few years, so they cut their teeth as a DT - which is what the Ravens did with Ngata. We are throwing Shelton in and expecting him to excel immediately as a true NT, and he's playing average - which is to be expected.
Fourth, despite making no changes to our ILB corps, we're experiencing better performance against runs between the guards. Last year, opposing defenses ran at us between the guards on 63% of plays, with a 4.63 A/YPA. This season, they are only getting around 4.2 A/YPA - not much of a difference, but it shows that Shelton, as a rookie, with no changes to our linebacking corps has made some impact.
Last season, our two worst areas for the defensive line were runs between guards and runs between right guard and tackle. This year, those are our two BEST areas.
So, all in all, yes Shelton is doing just fine and has the same impact Ngata did in his rookie year.
I think your problem is threefold - you are severely overvaluing Ngata's individual rookie season, you forget the Ravens defensive staff in 2006 and I also think you don't understand the role of a NT in a 3-4 scheme.
Wow. I thought you knew football more based on some of your posts, but apparently, I was wrong. I have been coaching football for over a decade at the HS level - not something I publicize here a lot - but there you go. Take that for whatever you think it's worth, but trust me when I say I understand what the NT's responsibilities are in a 3-4 base. The Browns are seldom in 'just' a 3-4 base... They are all over the map. Even when they do have 3-4 base personnel on the field, they don't always line up in a true 3-4 base.
The next game, watch it like you were coaching. For 1 entire quarter watch Danny (that is if he isn't yanked for a UDFA again). He gets moved off the LOS more times than not, and out of those times, he is often 1 on 1 and not doubled. If you do watch Danny, you'll see what I'm talking about..... It's not every snap, some snaps he holds his own for sure, but he needs to win his 1 on 1's with a lot more consistency, so the offense will have to double him more then they are now.
He needs to add strength and lose weight this offseason if he ever has a chance to play like Ngata........ Being a giant, slow cream puff works in D1, but not in the NFL.
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The buck stops at Pettine . . . period.
Blaming the QB's for the piss poor clock management. . . That's just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
And if you want to blame the coordinators for everything that's fine . . . But shouldn't Pettine have done something about seeing the same mistakes over and over again. Or how about mentioning that whatever scheme they are trying to run isn't working.
For example of bad coaching let's look at the defensive backfield. Our DB's have been left out on islands all year long. You can say that they aren't talented enough, but isn't it up to coaching to realize hey our guys aren't talented enough to play man every down and give them some safety help.
Or how about seemingly every guy on our defense being told or thinking they have to lose weight to be able to play on the scheme. Somethings just not right with that picture.
I realize that the players aren't world beaters, but the coaching staff can't continually use that as an excuse and make ZERO adjustments to the scheme. They have to be able to adjust.
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All I hear are a bunch of people repeating what they read and pumping out cliche after cliche....
Cliche #1) Pettine is losing the locker room?.....dont see it. These guys look to be playing hard and Ive only heard about one or 2 guys who are crying....And in a room with 53 people, there will ALWAYS be some who aren;t with the program...
Cliche #2) Players arent "being put in position to succeed"......HA!..The lamest argument ive heard yet and Ive heard it 100 times this week.....has asked many of those posters to show me how, but no one has....just a bunch of "kruger covering " comments(which are crap and untrue) and a bunch of "they are playing like shit, so that HAS to be the reason".....
Cliche #3) Pettine is a poor game manager and has poor clock management skills......Truth is that its the Coordinators who manage the game....and the QB's who have screwed up the clock the last couple of times....so, maybe the QB coach should teach his guys what to do during a 2 min drill....or the O coordinator should make it clear to his players that we have to be alert at the end of a half.....that is 2 minute drill 101 for most coaches....lastly, no matter how goofy some of the clock issues have been, we have not lost because of it......yesterday everyone was crying about it, even tough we got the FG(which was all we were getting anyway).....
So....people tell me Krugers is not being used right.....even though he rushes the passer 90% of the time.....does anyone get that is exactly what he did last year too?......that a guy like Kruger or a DB is really just going man against man and its NOT a scheme thing??.....its that one man wins and the other one loses....and our guys are losing those battles?.....
For the third time this week.....Im asking for one person to explain to me "why" the scheme is bad....or what are they doing that prevents our players from making plays.......or what, exactly, is Oneill doing that another DC wont do.....or vice versa....
All I hear are a bunch of people repeating what they read and pumping out cliche after cliche....
Cliche #1) Pettine is losing the locker room?.....dont see it. These guys look to be playing hard and Ive only heard about one or 2 guys who are crying....And in a room with 53 people, there will ALWAYS be some who aren;t with the program...
Cliche #2) Players arent "being put in position to succeed"......HA!..The lamest argument ive heard yet and Ive heard it 100 times this week.....has asked many of those posters to show me how, but no one has....just a bunch of "kruger covering " comments(which are crap and untrue) and a bunch of "they are playing like shit, so that HAS to be the reason".....
Cliche #3) Pettine is a poor game manager and has poor clock management skills......Truth is that its the Coordinators who manage the game....and the QB's who have screwed up the clock the last couple of times....so, maybe the QB coach should teach his guys what to do during a 2 min drill....or the O coordinator should make it clear to his players that we have to be alert at the end of a half.....that is 2 minute drill 101 for most coaches....lastly, no matter how goofy some of the clock issues have been, we have not lost because of it......yesterday everyone was crying about it, even tough we got the FG(which was all we were getting anyway).....
So....people tell me Krugers is not being used right.....even though he rushes the passer 90% of the time.....does anyone get that is exactly what he did last year too?......that a guy like Kruger or a DB is really just going man against man and its NOT a scheme thing??.....its that one man wins and the other one loses....and our guys are losing those battles?.....
For the third time this week.....Im asking for one person to explain to me "why" the scheme is bad....or what are they doing that prevents our players from making plays.......or what, exactly, is Oneill doing that another DC wont do.....or vice versa....
I think it's the scheme as a whole that is wrong for this league.
The main problem is that we don't possess linebackers who CAN cover outside of Dansby at this point in time. For as poor as our defensive performance has been, we're currently ranked 18th in the league against #1 WR's, and 16th in the league against #2 WR's...but 29th against "Other WR's" and 23rd against RB's. So, while our secondary as a whole has been injured and ineffective, the real detriment to the team has been the mismatches in coverage on receivers that AREN'T flankers or split ends.
A team that plays man lock coverage on the outside is inherently a team that requires near perfection from its defensive staff. Zone coverage has its holes, but it's a solid crutch for teams that don't possess true cover corners or are transitioning players, coaches, etc. I'd love to see the percentage breakdown of man vs. zone called coverages, because I feel like we'd be near the top of the league in called man percentage. To me, if that's the case, that's a coaching issue.
Part of this is a Farmer problem, as that means he didn't supply the coaching staff with the coverage linebacker it needs to execute this scheme properly. However, another problem then lies in the inability of the defensive coaching staff to recognize where the issues are and address them. If we're getting gouged through the air by RB's, slot WR's and TE's, then you would think we would naturally then shift to a higher percentage of zone and combo coverages to help our linebacking corps with the mismatches.
Early in the season, Dansby was THE top coverage linebacker in the NFL, so what's changed? I don't have a Sig Stats membership to PFF, so I can't tell you.
All I know is, this is the worst defensive performance a Browns team has put together with arguably the most talented roster on paper, so there is a disconnect somewhere.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Mingo has 13 solo tackles, and 20 combined. Kruger has 12 solo tackles, and 2.5 sacks. TWELVE TACKLES?! Wouldn't he accidentally get a few more? We have such a deficiency in our outside linebacking corp, that it's not even funny. They don't have a nose for the ball, they don't get pressure on the qb, and they must be the easiest opponent for every OL. It doesn't seem possible that they are so bad. Mingo was a high pick, and Kruger was a high priced free agent. Just....UGH. Farmer didn't select Mingo, so I can't blame him, but I DO blame him for not finding other people that can make a difference.
I wish we had some young defenders I could get excited about, but we really don't. I am interested to see that corner we took late that had the knee injury, but coming off a major injury is a tall task. Hopefully Orchard and Shelton will make second year leaps, and K'Waun can stay healthy. I also think Haden makes a comeback, and this year is not a fair representation of him as a player. I assume Gipson will go (can we tag him?), Gilbert won't pan out, Starks will go, and several others won't come back. It's going to be a crazy offseason, that's for sure.
As fans, many of us wanted an owner that opened the check book, and it appears that we have it. Our defense carries a staggering price of $82 million, and suffice to say, they completely suck and are devoid of talent. Yes, we've had injuries, but we also haven't developed any young talent. Cleveland isn't a desirable place to come as a free agent, I think that's fair, so teams like us have to overpay for talent. Well, we overpaid, but we didn't get the corresponding talent. We don't stop the run, rush the passer, or generally make things difficult for the opposition.
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Farmer was asst. GM when we picked Mingo, fwiw.
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I think your problem is threefold - you are severely overvaluing Ngata's individual rookie season, you forget the Ravens defensive staff in 2006 and I also think you don't understand the role of a NT in a 3-4 scheme.
Wow. I thought you knew football more based on some of your posts, but apparently, I was wrong. I have been coaching football for over a decade at the HS level - not something I publicize here a lot - but there you go. Take that for whatever you think it's worth, but trust me when I say I understand what the NT's responsibilities are in a 3-4 base. The Browns are seldom in 'just' a 3-4 base... They are all over the map. Even when they do have 3-4 base personnel on the field, they don't always line up in a true 3-4 base.
The next game, watch it like you were coaching. For 1 entire quarter watch Danny (that is if he isn't yanked for a UDFA again). He gets moved off the LOS more times than not, and out of those times, he is often 1 on 1 and not doubled. If you do watch Danny, you'll see what I'm talking about..... It's not every snap, some snaps he holds his own for sure, but he needs to win his 1 on 1's with a lot more consistency, so the offense will have to double him more then they are now.
He needs to add strength and lose weight this offseason if he ever has a chance to play like Ngata........ Being a giant, slow cream puff works in D1, but not in the NFL.
Wow. I thought you knew football more based on some of your posts, but apparently, I was wrong. I have been coaching football for over a decade at the HS level - not something I publicize here a lot - but there you go. Take that for whatever you think it's worth, but trust me when I say I understand what the NT's responsibilities are in a 3-4 base. The Browns are seldom in 'just' a 3-4 base... They are all over the map. Even when they do have 3-4 base personnel on the field, they don't always line up in a true 3-4 base.
The next game, watch it like you were coaching. For 1 entire quarter watch Danny (that is if he isn't yanked for a UDFA again). He gets moved off the LOS more times than not, and out of those times, he is often 1 on 1 and not doubled. If you do watch Danny, you'll see what I'm talking about..... It's not every snap, some snaps he holds his own for sure, but he needs to win his 1 on 1's with a lot more consistency, so the offense will have to double him more then they are now.
He needs to add strength and lose weight this offseason if he ever has a chance to play like Ngata........ Being a giant, slow cream puff works in D1, but not in the NFL.
In this entire response, you refuted zero claims. It took you a lot of words to say "I know football, I coach a high school, Shelton is fat" and nothing else of substance.
I watch every game like I'm coaching - and I see a rookie NT who gets about half of the defensive snaps for no reason. I'll have to wait until I get home to watch the full tape again, but just from the NFL.com highlights that I can easily access here...
2nd and 8, Shelton takes on a double team, reads the play action and washes down, then Robertson (who is supposed to fill the gap) runs directly into Shelton's back and Shelton disengages and knocks him over, despite there being at least 4 yards of open space to the right of Shelton.
1st and goal, Shelton stands directly up, takes on a double team, literally throws #61 Russell Bodine off of him, is in position to make the play at the LOS, and Jamie Meder gets washed down so hard that he rolls over Shelton's leg and knocks him down.
3rd and 1, Shelton takes on a double team and gets moved back 6 inches.
Shelton is playing like a rookie, no better, no worse. He has a high pad height and he's not strong enough to consistently play inside yet, but he's playing exactly how he should. However, he's on the field for only half of the defensive plays, and he's getting blown up by our own defensive players the other half.
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All I hear are a bunch of people repeating what they read and pumping out cliche after cliche....
Cliche #1) Pettine is losing the locker room?.....dont see it. These guys look to be playing hard and Ive only heard about one or 2 guys who are crying....And in a room with 53 people, there will ALWAYS be some who aren;t with the program...
Cliche #2) Players arent "being put in position to succeed"......HA!..The lamest argument ive heard yet and Ive heard it 100 times this week.....has asked many of those posters to show me how, but no one has....just a bunch of "kruger covering " comments(which are crap and untrue) and a bunch of "they are playing like shit, so that HAS to be the reason".....
Cliche #3) Pettine is a poor game manager and has poor clock management skills......Truth is that its the Coordinators who manage the game....and the QB's who have screwed up the clock the last couple of times....so, maybe the QB coach should teach his guys what to do during a 2 min drill....or the O coordinator should make it clear to his players that we have to be alert at the end of a half.....that is 2 minute drill 101 for most coaches....lastly, no matter how goofy some of the clock issues have been, we have not lost because of it......yesterday everyone was crying about it, even tough we got the FG(which was all we were getting anyway).....
So....people tell me Krugers is not being used right.....even though he rushes the passer 90% of the time.....does anyone get that is exactly what he did last year too?......that a guy like Kruger or a DB is really just going man against man and its NOT a scheme thing??.....its that one man wins and the other one loses....and our guys are losing those battles?.....
For the third time this week.....Im asking for one person to explain to me "why" the scheme is bad....or what are they doing that prevents our players from making plays.......or what, exactly, is Oneill doing that another DC wont do.....or vice versa....
All I hear are a bunch of people repeating what they read and pumping out cliche after cliche....
Cliche #1) Pettine is losing the locker room?.....dont see it. These guys look to be playing hard and Ive only heard about one or 2 guys who are crying....And in a room with 53 people, there will ALWAYS be some who aren;t with the program...
We're usually on the same page but I could not disagree with you more on this statement. Guys out there yesterday literally looked they didn't give a shit, to include Tramon Williams limply pointing to Gipson as he let A.J. green go WIDE open for a TD. I don't see guys playing hard at all, just a bunch of people who have given up.
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All I hear are a bunch of people repeating what they read and pumping out cliche after cliche....
Cliche #1) Pettine is losing the locker room?.....dont see it. These guys look to be playing hard and Ive only heard about one or 2 guys who are crying....And in a room with 53 people, there will ALWAYS be some who aren;t with the program...
Cliche #2) Players arent "being put in position to succeed"......HA!..The lamest argument ive heard yet and Ive heard it 100 times this week.....has asked many of those posters to show me how, but no one has....just a bunch of "kruger covering " comments(which are crap and untrue) and a bunch of "they are playing like shit, so that HAS to be the reason".....
Cliche #3) Pettine is a poor game manager and has poor clock management skills......Truth is that its the Coordinators who manage the game....and the QB's who have screwed up the clock the last couple of times....so, maybe the QB coach should teach his guys what to do during a 2 min drill....or the O coordinator should make it clear to his players that we have to be alert at the end of a half.....that is 2 minute drill 101 for most coaches....lastly, no matter how goofy some of the clock issues have been, we have not lost because of it......yesterday everyone was crying about it, even tough we got the FG(which was all we were getting anyway).....
So....people tell me Krugers is not being used right.....even though he rushes the passer 90% of the time.....does anyone get that is exactly what he did last year too?......that a guy like Kruger or a DB is really just going man against man and its NOT a scheme thing??.....its that one man wins and the other one loses....and our guys are losing those battles?.....
For the third time this week.....Im asking for one person to explain to me "why" the scheme is bad....or what are they doing that prevents our players from making plays.......or what, exactly, is Oneill doing that another DC wont do.....or vice versa....
I think it's the scheme as a whole that is wrong for this league.
The main problem is that we don't possess linebackers who CAN cover outside of Dansby at this point in time. For as poor as our defensive performance has been, we're currently ranked 18th in the league against #1 WR's, and 16th in the league against #2 WR's...but 29th against "Other WR's" and 23rd against RB's. So, while our secondary as a whole has been injured and ineffective, the real detriment to the team has been the mismatches in coverage on receivers that AREN'T flankers or split ends.
A team that plays man lock coverage on the outside is inherently a team that requires near perfection from its defensive staff. Zone coverage has its holes, but it's a solid crutch for teams that don't possess true cover corners or are transitioning players, coaches, etc. I'd love to see the percentage breakdown of man vs. zone called coverages, because I feel like we'd be near the top of the league in called man percentage. To me, if that's the case, that's a coaching issue.
Part of this is a Farmer problem, as that means he didn't supply the coaching staff with the coverage linebacker it needs to execute this scheme properly. However, another problem then lies in the inability of the defensive coaching staff to recognize where the issues are and address them. If we're getting gouged through the air by RB's, slot WR's and TE's, then you would think we would naturally then shift to a higher percentage of zone and combo coverages to help our linebacking corps with the mismatches.
Early in the season, Dansby was THE top coverage linebacker in the NFL, so what's changed? I don't have a Sig Stats membership to PFF, so I can't tell you.
All I know is, this is the worst defensive performance a Browns team has put together with arguably the most talented roster on paper, so there is a disconnect somewhere.
I think it's the scheme as a whole that is wrong for this league.
The main problem is that we don't possess linebackers who CAN cover outside of Dansby at this point in time. For as poor as our defensive performance has been, we're currently ranked 18th in the league against #1 WR's, and 16th in the league against #2 WR's...but 29th against "Other WR's" and 23rd against RB's.
This is because our LB's suck....and not a function of sceme. OLB's DO cover on other teams and our OLB's are rated dead last in the league for coverage...
A team that plays man lock coverage on the outside is inherently a team that requires near perfection from its defensive staff. Zone coverage has its holes, but it's a solid crutch for teams that don't possess true cover corners or are transitioning players, coaches, etc. I'd love to see the percentage breakdown of man vs. zone called coverages, because I feel like we'd be near the top of the league in called man percentage. To me, if that's the case, that's a coaching issue.
The Browns have said all along that we are a man coverage team and, last year, we were rated #1 in the league at this. So, why would they change that coming onto this season. One of the biggest issues.....(and you know it) .....has been the run defense. And, because our LB's have been SO deficient there. the staff has NO alternative but to get help up front....which means the Safeties play up(like linebackers). And when the safeties play up, the the DB's are alone......if we get help to the DB's, then they run right over us and kill us with slants and screens....why?.....because our LB's suck!!!
And to say they haven't done anything is crazy....the caoches have been moving guys all over the place TRYING to get some level o competence from them. And now, they have even pulled Kruger and Mingo out, cause they just arent getting it done....
Part of this is a Farmer problem, as that means he didn't supply the coaching staff with the coverage linebacker it needs to execute this scheme properly.
This, right here, is the biggest failure on our D....
However, another problem then lies in the inability of the defensive coaching staff to recognize where the issues are and address them. If we're getting gouged through the air by RB's, slot WR's and TE's, then you would think we would naturally then shift to a higher percentage of zone and combo coverages to help our linebacking corps with the mismatches.
As explained above, the coaches HAVE recognized it and made HUGE changes to who playing....how they're lining up.....etc.....problem is, that without the talent, no matter where we offer extra protection, they are just gonna go and expose the spot that not getting it.....so, give u the run or give u the long ball, but with these players one of those things is gonna happen....
Early in the season, Dansby was THE top coverage linebacker in the NFL, so what's changed?
He is rated 3rd in the league...Dansby and Kirksey have dropped into coverage 700+ times this year and rushed the passer only 90....which tells you they are covering for EVERYBODY......Kruger is bitching that he :covers too much, yet he's dropped only 50 times and rushed the passer over 280 times.....yet he cant make a tackle.....
Dansby has to cover for 400+ pass plays, yet leads the team with 81 tackles....
Kruger has to cover for only 50 plays, yet only has 13 tackles in 13 games.......
Dansby cant do everything.....(but he;s trying)
All I know is, this is the worst defensive performance a Browns team has put together with arguably the most talented roster on paper, so there is a disconnect somewhere.
I dont see all this talent of which you speak.....our 3 all pro DB's have not performed.....and our OLB's bite.....and without OLB's, you cant win..... -
All I hear are a bunch of people repeating what they read and pumping out cliche after cliche....
Cliche #1) Pettine is losing the locker room?.....dont see it. These guys look to be playing hard and Ive only heard about one or 2 guys who are crying....And in a room with 53 people, there will ALWAYS be some who aren;t with the program...
We're usually on the same page but I could not disagree with you more on this statement. Guys out there yesterday literally looked they didn't give a shit, to include Tramon Williams limply pointing to Gipson as he let A.J. green go WIDE open for a TD. I don't see guys playing hard at all, just a bunch of people who have given up.
We're usually on the same page but I could not disagree with you more on this statement. Guys out there yesterday literally looked they didn't give a shit, to include Tramon Williams limply pointing to Gipson as he let A.J. green go WIDE open for a TD. I don't see guys playing hard at all, just a bunch of people who have given up.
Like I said before, with 53 guys, some are gonna give up and some are gonna bitch....
But, to my eye, it looks like just a handful......
Losing sucks....guys get down about it.....some even quite.....doesnt mean that the coach has "lost the locker room"....
Again....a popular cliche to use when things look bad....
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Bottom line TCPO if you think Danny's having the same impact in his rookie season as Haloti did in his, then your opinion is wrong.... Have a good one.
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I think it's the scheme as a whole that is wrong for this league.
The main problem is that we don't possess linebackers who CAN cover outside of Dansby at this point in time. For as poor as our defensive performance has been, we're currently ranked 18th in the league against #1 WR's, and 16th in the league against #2 WR's...but 29th against "Other WR's" and 23rd against RB's.
This is because our LB's suck....and not a function of sceme. OLB's DO cover on other teams and our OLB's are rated dead last in the league for coverage...
A team that plays man lock coverage on the outside is inherently a team that requires near perfection from its defensive staff. Zone coverage has its holes, but it's a solid crutch for teams that don't possess true cover corners or are transitioning players, coaches, etc. I'd love to see the percentage breakdown of man vs. zone called coverages, because I feel like we'd be near the top of the league in called man percentage. To me, if that's the case, that's a coaching issue.
The Browns have said all along that we are a man coverage team and, last year, we were rated #1 in the league at this. So, why would they change that coming onto this season. One of the biggest issues.....(and you know it) .....has been the run defense. And, because our LB's have been SO deficient there. the staff has NO alternative but to get help up front....which means the Safeties play up(like linebackers). And when the safeties play up, the the DB's are alone......if we get help to the DB's, then they run right over us and kill us with slants and screens....why?.....because our LB's suck!!!
And to say they haven't done anything is crazy....the caoches have been moving guys all over the place TRYING to get some level o competence from them. And now, they have even pulled Kruger and Mingo out, cause they just arent getting it done....
Part of this is a Farmer problem, as that means he didn't supply the coaching staff with the coverage linebacker it needs to execute this scheme properly.
This, right here, is the biggest failure on our D....
However, another problem then lies in the inability of the defensive coaching staff to recognize where the issues are and address them. If we're getting gouged through the air by RB's, slot WR's and TE's, then you would think we would naturally then shift to a higher percentage of zone and combo coverages to help our linebacking corps with the mismatches.
As explained above, the coaches HAVE recognized it and made HUGE changes to who playing....how they're lining up.....etc.....problem is, that without the talent, no matter where we offer extra protection, they are just gonna go and expose the spot that not getting it.....so, give u the run or give u the long ball, but with these players one of those things is gonna happen....
Early in the season, Dansby was THE top coverage linebacker in the NFL, so what's changed?
He is rated 3rd in the league...Dansby and Kirksey have dropped into coverage 700+ times this year and rushed the passer only 90....which tells you they are covering for EVERYBODY......Kruger is bitching that he :covers too much, yet he's dropped only 50 times and rushed the passer over 280 times.....yet he cant make a tackle.....
Dansby has to cover for 400+ pass plays, yet leads the team with 81 tackles....
Kruger has to cover for only 50 plays, yet only has 13 tackles in 13 games.......
Dansby cant do everything.....(but he;s trying)
All I know is, this is the worst defensive performance a Browns team has put together with arguably the most talented roster on paper, so there is a disconnect somewhere.
I dont see all this talent of which you speak.....our 3 all pro DB's have not performed.....and our OLB's bite.....and without OLB's, you cant win.....I think it's the scheme as a whole that is wrong for this league.
The main problem is that we don't possess linebackers who CAN cover outside of Dansby at this point in time. For as poor as our defensive performance has been, we're currently ranked 18th in the league against #1 WR's, and 16th in the league against #2 WR's...but 29th against "Other WR's" and 23rd against RB's.
This is because our LB's suck....and not a function of sceme. OLB's DO cover on other teams and our OLB's are rated dead last in the league for coverage...
A team that plays man lock coverage on the outside is inherently a team that requires near perfection from its defensive staff. Zone coverage has its holes, but it's a solid crutch for teams that don't possess true cover corners or are transitioning players, coaches, etc. I'd love to see the percentage breakdown of man vs. zone called coverages, because I feel like we'd be near the top of the league in called man percentage. To me, if that's the case, that's a coaching issue.
The Browns have said all along that we are a man coverage team and, last year, we were rated #1 in the league at this. So, why would they change that coming onto this season. One of the biggest issues.....(and you know it) .....has been the run defense. And, because our LB's have been SO deficient there. the staff has NO alternative but to get help up front....which means the Safeties play up(like linebackers). And when the safeties play up, the the DB's are alone......if we get help to the DB's, then they run right over us and kill us with slants and screens....why?.....because our LB's suck!!!
And to say they haven't done anything is crazy....the caoches have been moving guys all over the lace TRYING to get some level o competence from them. And now, they have even pulled Kruger and Mingo out, cause they just arent getting it done....
Part of this is a Farmer problem, as that means he didn't supply the coaching staff with the coverage linebacker it needs to execute this scheme properly.
This, right here, is the biggest failure on our D....
However, another problem then lies in the inability of the defensive coaching staff to recognize where the issues are and address them. If we're getting gouged through the air by RB's, slot WR's and TE's, then you would think we would naturally then shift to a higher percentage of zone and combo coverages to help our linebacking corps with the mismatches.
As explained above, the coaches HAVE recognized it and made HUGE changes to who playing....how they're lining up.....etc.....problem is, that without the talent, no matter where we offer extra protection, they are just gonna go and expose the spot that not getting it.....so, give u the run or give u the long ball, but with these players one of those things is gonna happen....
Early in the season, Dansby was THE top coverage linebacker in the NFL, so what's changed?
He is rated 3rd in the league...Dansby and Kirksey have dropped into coverage 700+ times this year and rushed the passer only 90....which tells you they are covering for EVERYBODY......Kruger is bitching that he :covers too much, yet he's dropped only 50 times and rushed the passer over 280 times.....yet he cant make a tackle.....
Dansby has to cover for 400+ pass plays, yet leads the team with 81 tackles....
Kruger has to cover for only 50 plays, yet only has 13 tackles in 13 games.......
Dansby cant do everything.....(but he;s trying)
All I know is, this is the worst defensive performance a Browns team has put together with arguably the most talented roster on paper, so there is a disconnect somewhere.
I dont see all this talent of which you speak.....our 3 all pro DB's have not performed.....and our OLB's bite.....and without OLB's, you cant win.....I can't recall a time in the past when we had a five Pro Bowl players on our defense at the same time along with the top rated NT in his draft class. Regardless of their performance this year, ON PAPER that is the most talented defense we've seen.
Once again, on paper.
So the flaw in this defense is on Farmer, then, despite the fact that he got a top rated cover corner to pair opposite of Haden, a former Pro Bowl strong safety, one of the best cover ILB's, the most versatile DT available in FA, and the top rated NT in the draft this year - all things that Pettine NEEDED to run this scheme. Now he NEEDS an OLB and it's Farmer's fault for not supplying him with that.
Forgive me if I just don't have faith in Pettine then. Because we'll go out and get him a cover OLB and then he'll NEED a top DE. And then we'll get him that and he'll NEED a 7'7" FS with chainsaw arms.
I agree that our OLB's are terrible. But at some point, it's on the coaching staff to win with what the fuck they have - we spent a TON of money and time on defensive personnel and they still can't win.
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Absolutely correct. Well said.@douche-nozzle said:
I'm honestly curious because I've watched it for 35 years here in Cleveland, particularly since coming back to the NFL. What could Haslem do? So many want nothing except to win "now" and that simpy isn't going to happen. To fix this cluster-fuck will take many years and it seems like the majority of Browns fans and media simply wouldn't tolerate that. The media is a joke and the fans are so unrealistic I'm not sure there is anything he could do.
Browns fans deserve much better. They're not going get it from this squad - either from the players or the coaches. Problem is that this organization won't turn it around any time soon - fans should be prepared for at least another five losing seasons and no playoffs. Are you prepared to wait for that to happen? Are you ready to slog through at least five years of mediocrity, holding out hope for a turnaround?
Sadly, the current and future prospects of this team are, at best, poor. For a proud and loyal fan base that has suffered through the last two decades this is simply unacceptable. In the words of Sweet Brown, "Ain't nobody got time for that".
This team, and its management, deserves to play to an empty house for the remainder of this season. And future seasons. Until the fans get what they deserve: a legitimate, winning NFL team.
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he's still going to be bad, you've got to know that right? Do you think he would have fared any better out there at tackle against Michael Johnson? How bout Mario Williams? Those guys would pee on him just as much as Peko and Atkins did.
I think he would have fared SLIGHTLY better against a 267 lb. Michael Johnson, instead of a 305 lb. Geno Atkins or a 325 lb. Domata Peko. Erving's main weakness coming out of Florida State was that he didn't possess the lower body strength needed for an interior line position at the NFL level yet.
He's a rookie playing in a position he barely practiced at and is ill-suited for, going up against two of the better interior defensive linemen in the league. He would have had troubles anywhere you threw him, but throwing him at LG against Atkins and Peko and expecting anything other than struggles was just wishful thinking.
Would he have trouble with Mario Williams? Sure, most right tackles in the league do. So is your main argument that he would have trouble as a rookie against Pro Bowl talent?
I think he would have fared SLIGHTLY better against a 267 lb. Michael Johnson, instead of a 305 lb. Geno Atkins or a 325 lb. Domata Peko. Erving's main weakness coming out of Florida State was that he didn't possess the lower body strength needed for an interior line position at the NFL level yet.
I doubt even slightly... his feet weren't great at FSU. Not something that screams "put this guy with anchoring issues in space."
That said, Geno ate up Bito in our first meeting. So I agree that you can't condemn Cam for all time based upon his showing Sunday. He should get stronger and learn to use his size as an asset.
If Im looking at position groups and their performances.....Im keying in on the RB's, LB's, O line and D line as groups that are under performing.....and therefore, keying in on those coaches....
But I think the DB's, WR's, TE's and QB''s seem to at least meet their base expectations...so, maybe they are being coached ok.....
So....thats where Id start.....
QB's and DB's for me... maybe WR's... Can't give TE coach credit for Barn, a simply undiscovered talent, when Dray has underperformed. Also remember that Housler did not develop.
I can't recall our off-season staff moves besides Flip and O'Connell. Did we make any?
On the D side, Weaver is our DL coach, and held that position in Buffalo and New York (asst) under Pett. Not super experienced, but not a rookie.
Our LB coach, Chuck Driesbach - I'm assuming is the same as the guy that was at the bills a couple years ago: First year in the NFL...37th year coaching.
Your lack of NFL experience theme rings true, for ability to relate to pros mindset and gravitas to hammer home their points, if not actual knowledge.
The other trap I see is the groupthink that so many Bills refugees might have brought.
All I hear are a bunch of people repeating what they read and pumping out cliche after cliche....
And you have a funny way of throwing in the proverbial towel...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I think he would have fared SLIGHTLY better against a 267 lb. Michael Johnson, instead of a 305 lb. Geno Atkins or a 325 lb. Domata Peko. Erving's main weakness coming out of Florida State was that he didn't possess the lower body strength needed for an interior line position at the NFL level yet.
I doubt even slightly... his feet weren't great at FSU. Not something that screams "put this guy with anchoring issues in space."
That said, Geno ate up Bito in our first meeting. So I agree that you can't condemn Cam for all time based upon his showing Sunday. He should get stronger and learn to use his size as an asset.
If Im looking at position groups and their performances.....Im keying in on the RB's, LB's, O line and D line as groups that are under performing.....and therefore, keying in on those coaches....
But I think the DB's, WR's, TE's and QB''s seem to at least meet their base expectations...so, maybe they are being coached ok.....
So....thats where Id start.....
QB's and DB's for me... maybe WR's... Can't give TE coach credit for Barn, a simply undiscovered talent, when Dray has underperformed. Also remember that Housler did not develop.
I can't recall our off-season staff moves besides Flip and O'Connell. Did we make any?
On the D side, Weaver is our DL coach, and held that position in Buffalo and New York (asst) under Pett. Not super experienced, but not a rookie.
Our LB coach, Chuck Driesbach - I'm assuming is the same as the guy that was at the bills a couple years ago: First year in the NFL...37th year coaching.
Your lack of NFL experience theme rings true, for ability to relate to pros mindset and gravitas to hammer home their points, if not actual knowledge.
The other trap I see is the groupthink that so many Bills refugees might have brought.
All I hear are a bunch of people repeating what they read and pumping out cliche after cliche....
And you have a funny way of throwing in the proverbial towel...
I doubt even slightly... his feet weren't great at FSU. Not something that screams "put this guy with anchoring issues in space."
That said, Geno ate up Bito in our first meeting. So I agree that you can't condemn Cam for all time based upon his showing Sunday. He should get stronger and learn to use his size as an asset.
His feet were less of a concern than his lower body strength, though. At least, in my opinion. Neither were great, but if you were to grade each on a 1-10 scale, I'd say 6 for footwork and 5.5 for LBS.
He'll never be a road grader in the NFL. He's rangier and quicker, I still say he's infinitely more physically built to be a tackle than a center.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Here's a fun tidbit:
After his reception yesterday, Tom Brady has more receiving yards than Dwayne Bowe this year.
I will now go vomit.
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The buck stops at Pettine . . . period.
Blaming the QB's for the piss poor clock management. . . That's just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
And if you want to blame the coordinators for everything that's fine . . . But shouldn't Pettine have done something about seeing the same mistakes over and over again. Or how about mentioning that whatever scheme they are trying to run isn't working.
For example of bad coaching let's look at the defensive backfield. Our DB's have been left out on islands all year long. You can say that they aren't talented enough, but isn't it up to coaching to realize hey our guys aren't talented enough to play man every down and give them some safety help.
Or how about seemingly every guy on our defense being told or thinking they have to lose weight to be able to play on the scheme. Somethings just not right with that picture.
I realize that the players aren't world beaters, but the coaching staff can't continually use that as an excuse and make ZERO adjustments to the scheme. They have to be able to adjust.
The buck stops at Pettine . . . period.
Blaming the QB's for the piss poor clock management. . . That's just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Absolutely on the buck... but not the rest.
Yes, it's on the QB... and it is on his coach for not prepping him adequately...
It may be on the OC for not seeing that the QB Coach prepped his QB(s)...
It may be on the HC for not seeing that the OC and/or DC and/or ST have prepped their squads.
But the first link, the QB's and his position coach's link, is the only one we know for sure that fell short.
Also may be that the HC and OCs are not allocating adequate time to practice these teaching points, but that's TBD as well.
Guys out there yesterday literally looked they didn't give a shit, to include Tramon Williams limply pointing to Gipson as he let A.J. green go WIDE open for a TD.
Hmmmm... maybe fans like you are why Pet closed his postgame presser making a point of saying that the coverage in your example called for Tramon to play "trail coverage with help over the top"...
8:45 mark of the following video:
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I doubt even slightly... his feet weren't great at FSU. Not something that screams "put this guy with anchoring issues in space."
That said, Geno ate up Bito in our first meeting. So I agree that you can't condemn Cam for all time based upon his showing Sunday. He should get stronger and learn to use his size as an asset.
His feet were less of a concern than his lower body strength, though. At least, in my opinion. Neither were great, but if you were to grade each on a 1-10 scale, I'd say 6 for footwork and 5.5 for LBS.
He'll never be a road grader in the NFL. He's rangier and quicker, I still say he's infinitely more physically built to be a tackle than a center.
He'll never be a road grader in the NFL. He's rangier and quicker, I still say he's infinitely more physically built to be a tackle than a center.
Agree with build, but I never did see a NFL level OT talent. Has a chance to be a good ZBS Center chipping his way to 2nd level blocks while getting double-team assists in power blocking situations.
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I agree with Tour (post of 2:26 pm). He expected help over the top which was not there. So the real question is, "Why not?" Did the safety not understand the coverage? Did the safety not have the speed to get there? (which seemed to be implied by the commentators). So to me either of these being the case falls on the coaches. If the players don't understand the coverage, then either it is too complicated or it was not communicated well enough for the player to know what they were doing. If it's a skill thing then it's poorly designed for the player in question and should not even be in use.
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