Haslem and Farmer should be ashamed....
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Harlem's biggest mistake was not hiring Bruce Arians or Mike Zimmer
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Look, everyone associated with the team's performance should be embarrassed. I wasn't happy with Pettine saying he was happy about his player's effort, but maybe he's right. Maybe our guys did try hard, but they just aren't good enough. I don't know, and I'm certainly not going to watch the damn game again.
I think a lot of people are mixing the word "effort" with the word "performance".....
Pettine didnt say he was happy with the play or performance, he said he didnt see a lack of effort.....
Which tells me 2 things......
1) He's got his players backs and isnt calling them out publicly....cause some were slackin....
2) He's implying that, even though they play hard, they aren't good enough...
Its obvious to me....
I think a lot of people are mixing the word "effort" with the word "performance".....
Pettine didnt say he was happy with the play or performance, he said he didnt see a lack of effort.....
Which tells me 2 things......
1) He's got his players backs and isnt calling them out publicly....cause some were slackin....
2) He's implying that, even though they play hard, they aren't good enough...
Its obvious to me....
Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it to. Like I said, I'm not going to watch the game again, but I can't really think of examples where I thought our players weren't TRYING. I think it's just kind of shocking to hear a coach say he was happy with the effort after his team got their asses whipped, LOL. And I also agree that he was trying to get his player's backs, but it makes his statement at the end of the conference even more puzzling. He specifically brought up the fact that Tramon was supposed to have top side help, but in making that statement, he completely called out Gipson. That entire play was puzzling. Gipson must have completely lined up wrong, which is hard to imagine because other players surely would've said something. He was so far away from the sideline, he couldn't possibly have assisted.
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I think a lot of people are mixing the word "effort" with the word "performance".....
Pettine didnt say he was happy with the play or performance, he said he didnt see a lack of effort.....
Which tells me 2 things......
1) He's got his players backs and isnt calling them out publicly....cause some were slackin....
2) He's implying that, even though they play hard, they aren't good enough...
Its obvious to me....
Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it to. Like I said, I'm not going to watch the game again, but I can't really think of examples where I thought our players weren't TRYING. I think it's just kind of shocking to hear a coach say he was happy with the effort after his team got their asses whipped, LOL. And I also agree that he was trying to get his player's backs, but it makes his statement at the end of the conference even more puzzling. He specifically brought up the fact that Tramon was supposed to have top side help, but in making that statement, he completely called out Gipson. That entire play was puzzling. Gipson must have completely lined up wrong, which is hard to imagine because other players surely would've said something. He was so far away from the sideline, he couldn't possibly have assisted.
He specifically brought up the fact that Tramon was supposed to have top side help, but in making that statement, he completely called out Gipson.
I dont know...100%....what his motives were, but can speculate....
Given the play, he either defended Tramon for what happened, or he let Tramon take the heat(even if it wasnt his fault)...so he opted to protect the player that was wrongfully being accused....
Plus....it's an opportunity to show that "players" make mistakes....and all the bad things that happen are not necessarily coaching...
Things are bad, so Ill bet a lot of fingers are being pointed...in a lot of directions....
Some players(like Kruger) want to blame the coach or scheme.....some players(like Tramon) want to blame other players.....some coaches want to blame the talent.....and some coaches want to blame effort or execution.....FO just want to blame anyone but themselves....
So....out of ALL the people involved....WHO is actually stepping up and accepting any responsibility or saying "I" have to do better....??
The Coaches are,,,,,thats it......
Farmer and Haslem are absent and the players prefer to think its either the Coaches or other players not pulling their weight...
A winning organization would "collectively" work together to resolve things, as opposed to going silent and waiting for the other shoe to drop....
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First, I agree Farmer sucks and Haslem has made a ton of mistakes.
Do you really think Haslem, fresh off the 4-12 train wreck from 2013, was thinking - I can't wait to make life Hell on my new Head Coach?
Second, Pettine hired his own coaching staff. For a guy that doesn't want to count on rookies at important positions or look to people with a history of alcoholism - what did his choices of coaches say about that? Poor Mike?
Third, there were many articles and pressers that mentioned this coaching staff and the Head Coach had a lot of input/say on the draft. maybe - just maybe, the owner (Haslem) encouraged them to work together?
Fourth, A lot of our higher investments on defense were off to a bad start this year ...Good teaching? Sound schemes? Or, just all Ray Farmer's and Jimmy Haslem's fault?
My worry was never Jimmy O'Neil and still isn't.
Surprisingly, I agree with Pettine that they're trying.
My guess is what Haslem learned from the Rooneys is when your program has a winning tradition - you get much better candidates interested in your Head Coach vacancies.
Ok....fair write up and I agree with much of what you said....let me say that I am not saying Pettine is great....nor am I saying he's done a super job....nor am I saying he "must" stay.......thats not the point Im making here....
What I said was that his "bosses" have hung him out to dry and, "if they are working together", as you said, then they have a real funny way of showing it......and if they are ALL culpable(which they are), then why is Pettine all alone when its time to answer questions????....to me, that shows weak leadership on the part of Farmer and Haslem....while Pettine is showing strength.....
But, I will address your points, since there is clearly a difference of opinion here....
First: If you agree that Farmer sucks, how can you say Pettine has the talent to win.???...or is the premise that he doesnt have the talent to win, but he should at least do a little better???......cause I could agree there....
And, if Haslem and Farmer have made a TON of mistakes, why do they get a pass, while Pettine gets fired? Are mistakes not part of the learning process for new players.....Owners?....GMs?.....and Coaches?
Second: Yes. He DID hire his own staff at the last second, when there were few to zero quality Coaches available. I think this staff is the BIGGEST part of the problem, because these coaches are the guys who are REALLY hands on with the players. THIS is where the changes need to be made....not at the top. AND, if were gonna "fire" a Coach for his hiring practices, then we should be firing EVERYBODY for their hiring practices......(you listening JIMMY?....""""Mr. I cant Hire Anybody that sticks""""..)
Third: Yes. They are supposed to work together, right?....so......
- Why is Pettine all alone out there. Work together, but take the blame solo?....was that the plan?
- Why does the Coach get a QB he cant stand? Isnt that the most important position on the field? So he's supposed to win with a drunk General he doesnt want?
- And, why does Pettine sit up there and accept the heat and "own it", as he likes to say. But when Farmer does his "Only" pressy, he deflects and basically says "I didnt pick these guys, WE picked these guys".....whose working together there?.....Dude wont even "own it" for his own picks...Instead, he just pushed that mess onto Pettines plate....
- So....no working together.....which was THE WHOLE POINT of this thread.....no acceptance of any responsibility from the Owner or GM, who are SUPPOSED to be part of the "team" and working "with" Pettine..
- If we were winning, those 2 would be front and center, soaking up the accolades.....guaranteed...
Fourth: Our High investments are not performing?...you mean like Dwayne Bowe?....Rob Housler?.....Ben Tate?....Paul Kruger?....Johnny Manziel?......Justin Gilbert?.....cause I dont think these guys are PETTINES fault, yet he's taking the heat for them....isnt he?...where is Farmer?...
Its easy to say some guys started bad.....or, if a player plays poorly, its the coaches fault......Look, I can tell you Haden, Gipson and Whitner all had Pro-bowl years under Pettine...or Kruger had his BEST season ever, under Pettine.....so, what, he didnt suck last year, but suddenly does this year?
Isnt it possible that Haden just started slow(like he has historically, season to season) and then got hurt?....(yes)
Isnt it possible that, after having his best season ever(also under Pettine), that Gipson blew his knee out and then started slow(like most injured guys do)...then got hurt too?....(yes)...
Isnt it possible that Kruger, after having HIS best season ever(also under Pettine) just reverted back to the very average LB he's always been and is putting up the same #'s he's put up in 5 out of his 7 seasons?.....(yes)...
So...is it all Farmer and Haslems fault?....NO...I never said that.....what I said is that it isnt ALL Pettines fault....
I'm not buying the theory none of this is Pettine's fault or he's a gotta keep.
So...again.....Im not saying "none of this is Pettines fault"......or that he's great or a "gotta keep"....
Im saying its a shared responsibility and, without proper talent, its unfair to dump the frustration of 20 years of losing on his back alone.....
Look....this team sucked when Shurmur came in, and sucked after he left...And it sucked when Chud came and it sucked when he left......And it sucked when Pettine came in....and WHOA.....now, its Pettines fault??????
So....if we are to fix the problem, do we fire the visible target, or can we do an honest assessment and make changes where they are needed?....thats all Im asking....
There is NO WAY a quality Coach is gonna watch this....Pettine dangling out there alone....getting ZERO support from the Owner or the GM(who are supposed to be part of the "work together team" you mentioned).....having players he doesnt want thrust upon him.....and still want to come here and Coach....no fucking way...
Farmer and Haslem could promise him the world and all the support he needs..But any smart Coach would see right through that and how THAT went with Pettine....who didnt get good players and didnt get the time he was promised and didnt get any support when things went bad....
So.....if I was Haslem.....
First: Id get with Pettine and, together, work to find some top notch-experienced Coaches going forward...because thats what good organizations do....they adjust and improve....as opposed to just vaporizing and starting over...and over.....and over....and over....
Second: Id fire Farmer.....or, at minimum.....set a performance ultimatum for year 3....and this would be an acceptable thing to do with Pettine too
Third: Id say something....as owner and leader.....to help my fans(and patrons) understand where this team is headed....
So....Poor Mike?.....in a way....Not because he's great and getting a bad rap....but because his bosses and "team mates" have forsaken him.....
But....I think you all will get your wish.....and Mike will be fired......and Haslem and Farmer will huddle and pursue another Coach and more half assed talent.....and it will continue to be a joke.....and the talent will prove to be what it is(bad to average, with a few good guys mixed in).....
And then everyone can debate the "new reason we suck"......
Ok....fair write up and I agree with much of what you said....let me say that I am not saying Pettine is great....nor am I saying he's done a super job....nor am I saying he "must" stay.......thats not the point Im making here....
What I said was that his "bosses" have hung him out to dry and, "if they are working together", as you said, then they have a real funny way of showing it......and if they are ALL culpable(which they are), then why is Pettine all alone when its time to answer questions????....to me, that shows weak leadership on the part of Farmer and Haslem....while Pettine is showing strength.....
But, I will address your points, since there is clearly a difference of opinion here....
First: If you agree that Farmer sucks, how can you say Pettine has the talent to win.???...or is the premise that he doesnt have the talent to win, but he should at least do a little better???......cause I could agree there....
And, if Haslem and Farmer have made a TON of mistakes, why do they get a pass, while Pettine gets fired? Are mistakes not part of the learning process for new players.....Owners?....GMs?.....and Coaches?
Second: Yes. He DID hire his own staff at the last second, when there were few to zero quality Coaches available. I think this staff is the BIGGEST part of the problem, because these coaches are the guys who are REALLY hands on with the players. THIS is where the changes need to be made....not at the top. AND, if were gonna "fire" a Coach for his hiring practices, then we should be firing EVERYBODY for their hiring practices......(you listening JIMMY?....""""Mr. I cant Hire Anybody that sticks""""..)
Third: Yes. They are supposed to work together, right?....so......
- Why is Pettine all alone out there. Work together, but take the blame solo?....was that the plan?
- Why does the Coach get a QB he cant stand? Isnt that the most important position on the field? So he's supposed to win with a drunk General he doesnt want?
- And, why does Pettine sit up there and accept the heat and "own it", as he likes to say. But when Farmer does his "Only" pressy, he deflects and basically says "I didnt pick these guys, WE picked these guys".....whose working together there?.....Dude wont even "own it" for his own picks...Instead, he just pushed that mess onto Pettines plate....
- So....no working together.....which was THE WHOLE POINT of this thread.....no acceptance of any responsibility from the Owner or GM, who are SUPPOSED to be part of the "team" and working "with" Pettine..
- If we were winning, those 2 would be front and center, soaking up the accolades.....guaranteed...
Its easy to say some guys started bad.....or, if a player plays poorly, its the coaches fault......Look, I can tell you Haden, Gipson and Whitner all had Pro-bowl years under Pettine...or Kruger had his BEST season ever, under Pettine.....so, what, he didnt suck last year, but suddenly does this year?
Isnt it possible that Haden just started slow(like he has historically, season to season) and then got hurt?....(yes)
Isnt it possible that, after having his best season ever(also under Pettine), that Gipson blew his knee out and then started slow(like most injured guys do)...then got hurt too?....(yes)...
Isnt it possible that Kruger, after having HIS best season ever(also under Pettine) just reverted back to the very average LB he's always been and is putting up the same #'s he's put up in 5 out of his 7 seasons?.....(yes)...
So...is it all Farmer and Haslems fault?....NO...I never said that.....what I said is that it isnt ALL Pettines fault....
So...again.....Im not saying "none of this is Pettines fault"......or that he's great or a "gotta keep"....
Im saying its a shared responsibility and, without proper talent, its unfair to dump the frustration of 20 years of losing on his back alone.....
Look....this team sucked when Shurmur came in, and sucked after he left...And it sucked when Chud came and it sucked when he left......And it sucked when Pettine came in....and WHOA.....now, its Pettines fault??????
So....if we are to fix the problem, do we fire the visible target, or can we do an honest assessment and make changes where they are needed?....thats all Im asking....
There is NO WAY a quality Coach is gonna watch this....Pettine dangling out there alone....getting ZERO support from the Owner or the GM(who are supposed to be part of the "work together team" you mentioned).....having players he doesnt want thrust upon him.....and still want to come here and Coach....no fucking way...
Farmer and Haslem could promise him the world and all the support he needs..But any smart Coach would see right through that and how THAT went with Pettine....who didnt get good players and didnt get the time he was promised and didnt get any support when things went bad....
So.....if I was Haslem.....
First: Id get with Pettine and, together, work to find some top notch-experienced Coaches going forward...because thats what good organizations do....they adjust and improve....as opposed to just vaporizing and starting over...and over.....and over....and over....
Second: Id fire Farmer.....or, at minimum.....set a performance ultimatum for year 3....and this would be an acceptable thing to do with Pettine too
Third: Id say something....as owner and leader.....to help my fans(and patrons) understand where this team is headed....
So....Poor Mike?.....in a way....Not because he's great and getting a bad rap....but because his bosses and "team mates" have forsaken him.....
But....I think you all will get your wish.....and Mike will be fired......and Haslem and Farmer will huddle and pursue another Coach and more half assed talent.....and it will continue to be a joke.....and the talent will prove to be what it is(bad to average, with a few good guys mixed in).....
And then everyone can debate the "new reason we suck"......
Kudos to you to have the balls to have such a strong opinion on such an unpopular view. I agree 100% with all you've said in this thread.
I have a few unpopular ideas to add myself.
1)If we keep the same GM/HC combo, give pettine final say on the roster/picks. Whether or not they collaborate or pettine gives his input, ultimately its farmer who has the final say regardless of who inputs what. IMO he has handcuffed the coaches because he thinks he knows what players are needed more than the coaches do, results? Highest paid D / worst ranked D (farmer signs these guys and decides how much), skill position talent near non existent, whiff after whiff on top draft picks (still hoping JFF can be the guy) DWAYNE BOWE SMFH, and as you point out, hes hiding and hanging pettine out to dry. If they retain them both, i say let pettine try his hand at shaping this roster.
2) If we kick farmer to the curb i say give pettine total control on a 1 year audition. Hire an exec for the football side to help guide and assist him, not undermine or overrule him and see how that works. After a year if things arent looking like its gonna work, start over from scatch and hire a whole new front office. Either way, the people who obtain the players have to have the same vision as the people coaching them and its pretty evident thats not the current case.
IMHO i beleive that pettine can get this turned around, i think he has the meddle to do it. Bumps from learning on the job are going to happen, just have to stick with it and ride it out.
!!!!hopefully i'll be alive when it happens!!!! -
I agree 100%
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I will say that it seems funny how right after Jimmy bought the team he goes under investigation with that whole fuel thing (I can't remember the whole story) But IF something fishy is going on behind closed doors (Like somebody has mentioned before) IDK But we always have a chance to get great picks like number 1 and a couple 2's and NEVER IMPROVE? We don't deserve this, we are the biggest sleeping giant in the NFL we have fans all over thanks to Browns backers,
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Ok....fair write up and I agree with much of what you said....let me say that I am not saying Pettine is great....nor am I saying he's done a super job....nor am I saying he "must" stay.......thats not the point Im making here....
What I said was that his "bosses" have hung him out to dry and, "if they are working together", as you said, then they have a real funny way of showing it......and if they are ALL culpable(which they are), then why is Pettine all alone when its time to answer questions????....to me, that shows weak leadership on the part of Farmer and Haslem....while Pettine is showing strength.....
But, I will address your points, since there is clearly a difference of opinion here....
First: If you agree that Farmer sucks, how can you say Pettine has the talent to win.???...or is the premise that he doesnt have the talent to win, but he should at least do a little better???......cause I could agree there....
And, if Haslem and Farmer have made a TON of mistakes, why do they get a pass, while Pettine gets fired? Are mistakes not part of the learning process for new players.....Owners?....GMs?.....and Coaches?
Second: Yes. He DID hire his own staff at the last second, when there were few to zero quality Coaches available. I think this staff is the BIGGEST part of the problem, because these coaches are the guys who are REALLY hands on with the players. THIS is where the changes need to be made....not at the top. AND, if were gonna "fire" a Coach for his hiring practices, then we should be firing EVERYBODY for their hiring practices......(you listening JIMMY?....""""Mr. I cant Hire Anybody that sticks""""..)
Third: Yes. They are supposed to work together, right?....so......
- Why is Pettine all alone out there. Work together, but take the blame solo?....was that the plan?
- Why does the Coach get a QB he cant stand? Isnt that the most important position on the field? So he's supposed to win with a drunk General he doesnt want?
- And, why does Pettine sit up there and accept the heat and "own it", as he likes to say. But when Farmer does his "Only" pressy, he deflects and basically says "I didnt pick these guys, WE picked these guys".....whose working together there?.....Dude wont even "own it" for his own picks...Instead, he just pushed that mess onto Pettines plate....
- So....no working together.....which was THE WHOLE POINT of this thread.....no acceptance of any responsibility from the Owner or GM, who are SUPPOSED to be part of the "team" and working "with" Pettine..
- If we were winning, those 2 would be front and center, soaking up the accolades.....guaranteed...
Its easy to say some guys started bad.....or, if a player plays poorly, its the coaches fault......Look, I can tell you Haden, Gipson and Whitner all had Pro-bowl years under Pettine...or Kruger had his BEST season ever, under Pettine.....so, what, he didnt suck last year, but suddenly does this year?
Isnt it possible that Haden just started slow(like he has historically, season to season) and then got hurt?....(yes)
Isnt it possible that, after having his best season ever(also under Pettine), that Gipson blew his knee out and then started slow(like most injured guys do)...then got hurt too?....(yes)...
Isnt it possible that Kruger, after having HIS best season ever(also under Pettine) just reverted back to the very average LB he's always been and is putting up the same #'s he's put up in 5 out of his 7 seasons?.....(yes)...
So...is it all Farmer and Haslems fault?....NO...I never said that.....what I said is that it isnt ALL Pettines fault....
So...again.....Im not saying "none of this is Pettines fault"......or that he's great or a "gotta keep"....
Im saying its a shared responsibility and, without proper talent, its unfair to dump the frustration of 20 years of losing on his back alone.....
Look....this team sucked when Shurmur came in, and sucked after he left...And it sucked when Chud came and it sucked when he left......And it sucked when Pettine came in....and WHOA.....now, its Pettines fault??????
So....if we are to fix the problem, do we fire the visible target, or can we do an honest assessment and make changes where they are needed?....thats all Im asking....
There is NO WAY a quality Coach is gonna watch this....Pettine dangling out there alone....getting ZERO support from the Owner or the GM(who are supposed to be part of the "work together team" you mentioned).....having players he doesnt want thrust upon him.....and still want to come here and Coach....no fucking way...
Farmer and Haslem could promise him the world and all the support he needs..But any smart Coach would see right through that and how THAT went with Pettine....who didnt get good players and didnt get the time he was promised and didnt get any support when things went bad....
So.....if I was Haslem.....
First: Id get with Pettine and, together, work to find some top notch-experienced Coaches going forward...because thats what good organizations do....they adjust and improve....as opposed to just vaporizing and starting over...and over.....and over....and over....
Second: Id fire Farmer.....or, at minimum.....set a performance ultimatum for year 3....and this would be an acceptable thing to do with Pettine too
Third: Id say something....as owner and leader.....to help my fans(and patrons) understand where this team is headed....
So....Poor Mike?.....in a way....Not because he's great and getting a bad rap....but because his bosses and "team mates" have forsaken him.....
But....I think you all will get your wish.....and Mike will be fired......and Haslem and Farmer will huddle and pursue another Coach and more half assed talent.....and it will continue to be a joke.....and the talent will prove to be what it is(bad to average, with a few good guys mixed in).....
And then everyone can debate the "new reason we suck"......
Kudos to you to have the balls to have such a strong opinion on such an unpopular view. I agree 100% with all you've said in this thread.
I have a few unpopular ideas to add myself.
1)If we keep the same GM/HC combo, give pettine final say on the roster/picks. Whether or not they collaborate or pettine gives his input, ultimately its farmer who has the final say regardless of who inputs what. IMO he has handcuffed the coaches because he thinks he knows what players are needed more than the coaches do, results? Highest paid D / worst ranked D (farmer signs these guys and decides how much), skill position talent near non existent, whiff after whiff on top draft picks (still hoping JFF can be the guy) DWAYNE BOWE SMFH, and as you point out, hes hiding and hanging pettine out to dry. If they retain them both, i say let pettine try his hand at shaping this roster.
2) If we kick farmer to the curb i say give pettine total control on a 1 year audition. Hire an exec for the football side to help guide and assist him, not undermine or overrule him and see how that works. After a year if things arent looking like its gonna work, start over from scatch and hire a whole new front office. Either way, the people who obtain the players have to have the same vision as the people coaching them and its pretty evident thats not the current case.
IMHO i beleive that pettine can get this turned around, i think he has the meddle to do it. Bumps from learning on the job are going to happen, just have to stick with it and ride it out.
Kudos to you to have the balls to have such a strong opinion on such an unpopular view. I agree 100% with all you've said in this thread.
I have a few unpopular ideas to add myself.
I agree 100%
Ha!....We are few, but I think there are some coming around...welcome to the club
We don't deserve this, we are the biggest sleeping giant in the NFL we have fans all over thanks to Browns backers,
Browns fans definitely deserve better......no doubt....
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Worse case scenario in my opinion is firing pettine at the end of the season and keeping farmer. Infact any scenario in which farmer remains involved with the browns in any way is a bad scenario.
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Now don't get me wrong both is fine too and if farmer goes pettine will almost assuredly go too
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Thats right.....Haslem and Farmer....
They ARE the ones running this ship, right?
Haslem is the bigshot owner who was gonna make this team right.....and Farmer is the arrogant - know it all - GM who restocked this team with greatness....right?
So....Haslam has already fired 2 complete NFL staffs, and by all appearances, is about to fire his third in just 3 years....and, somehow, he'll try to sell us that is "those guys he's fired" that were the problem....even though HE has hired them all and is their leader....
And if he is the leader, why is he not saying one thing?......Ill tell you why.....he doesnt know what to say, He's lost. And as long as he has Pettine to take the heat, he's gonna let him stand out there alone and answer to this shit storm.....as if it's Pettines fault this team has not improved....
And Farmer?....where the fuck is he??????......Why does Pettine have to answer to Johnny, Bowe, Housler, Gilbert, West, etc etc etc.....????......Farmer has been absent this ENTIRE season and the one time we saw him, he was as smug and arrogant as they come. Really really a turn off for this fan. Who fault is it that we have SO MANY overpaid non performing players? Whose fault is it that we claim to draft character, yet our roster has the head case Gilbert, party boy drunk QB, pot head WR in waiting, 4 th highest paid LB in the league, with 12 tackles, 12m WR who doesnt even try to play and a GM who gets himself suspended....
Yet, lets leave Pettine out there....all alone....to explain AND take the heat.....
For the 2 guys who are supposed to be LEADERS and the decision makers and the guys who are running things....they sure are absent....and definitely NOT being accountable in any way for this shit storm....
TERRIBLE LEADERSHIP FROM THE TOP DOWN......
Whether or not you think Pettine is a good coach, he is not the reason this team has been bad for 20 years...or the last 2 years......but he is the only one sitting out there....like a man....and answering questions and standing up to the heat......the other guys are hiding like the pussies that they are.
So....for all of you who think its Pettine or Jim Oneills fault that this team sucks....think again....
Everyone wants Pettine gone because he's the "leader" and not getting his minions to do their jobs....
but I say he's in the middle....FARMER and Haslem are his bosses and they aint leading shit....and they'll want you to believe they given Pettine "everything he needs to succeed"....which is a crock...
So....they'll let Pettine take the heat....twist in the wind....then they'll fire him(scapegoat)....and everyone will cheer!!....
And then Haslem and Farmer will continue to give us more shit and less leadership......and this untalented team will continue to make coaches look bad....
Its a bad look and I got more respect than ever for Pettine, for just sitting up there alone and being the goat....while the rest of the organization hides....
Maybe Pet was setup to fail and take the heat so Farmer and Jimmy can bring in their real "guy". interesting theory.
I think we all agree that we need coordinators and a GM/President with EXPERIENCE and continuity. A full rookie staff seems setup to fail.
Farmer was sweating like crazy the one time I saw him give a presser. Jimmy needs to say something.
And I believe it's Pettine and O'Neil's fault the defense sucks. Pet talked today in his pressure about them needed to find out the problem with the D. Whether it was the players, coaches, or scheme. I personally don't think Pet has the balls to call out or fire his buddy O'Neil, even if he is the problem. Again it's a tough spot to fire your good buddy, but maybe Pet should of let O'Neil coach the linebackers and brought in an experienced D coordinator who's done it before.
I don't hate Pettine, but can we agree the whole front office is a clusterfuck, and a few more years of it with no changes could quite possibly set us back even more.
Maybe Pet was setup to fail and take the heat so Farmer and Jimmy can bring in their real "guy". interesting theory.
I think we all agree that we need coordinators and a GM/President with EXPERIENCE and continuity. A full rookie staff seems setup to fail.
Farmer was sweating like crazy the one time I saw him give a presser. Jimmy needs to say something.
And I believe it's Pettine and O'Neil's fault the defense sucks. Pet talked today in his pressure about them needed to find out the problem with the D. Whether it was the players, coaches, or scheme. I personally don't think Pet has the balls to call out or fire his buddy O'Neil, even if he is the problem. Again it's a tough spot to fire your good buddy, but maybe Pet should of let O'Neil coach the linebackers and brought in an experienced D coordinator who's done it before.
I don't hate Pettine, but can we agree the whole front office is a clusterfuck, and a few more years of it with no changes could quite possibly set us back even more.
agreed. haslem knows shit about football. i wish he would sell the team although i believe he would make a deal to move the team out of cleveland if the money was right...It's all about the almighty fuck, i mean buck....
-
First, I agree Farmer sucks and Haslem has made a ton of mistakes.
Do you really think Haslem, fresh off the 4-12 train wreck from 2013, was thinking - I can't wait to make life Hell on my new Head Coach?
Second, Pettine hired his own coaching staff. For a guy that doesn't want to count on rookies at important positions or look to people with a history of alcoholism - what did his choices of coaches say about that? Poor Mike?
Third, there were many articles and pressers that mentioned this coaching staff and the Head Coach had a lot of input/say on the draft. maybe - just maybe, the owner (Haslem) encouraged them to work together?
Fourth, A lot of our higher investments on defense were off to a bad start this year ...Good teaching? Sound schemes? Or, just all Ray Farmer's and Jimmy Haslem's fault?
My worry was never Jimmy O'Neil and still isn't.
Surprisingly, I agree with Pettine that they're trying.
My guess is what Haslem learned from the Rooneys is when your program has a winning tradition - you get much better candidates interested in your Head Coach vacancies.
Ok....fair write up and I agree with much of what you said....let me say that I am not saying Pettine is great....nor am I saying he's done a super job....nor am I saying he "must" stay.......thats not the point Im making here....
What I said was that his "bosses" have hung him out to dry and, "if they are working together", as you said, then they have a real funny way of showing it......and if they are ALL culpable(which they are), then why is Pettine all alone when its time to answer questions????....to me, that shows weak leadership on the part of Farmer and Haslem....while Pettine is showing strength.....
But, I will address your points, since there is clearly a difference of opinion here....
First: If you agree that Farmer sucks, how can you say Pettine has the talent to win.???...or is the premise that he doesnt have the talent to win, but he should at least do a little better???......cause I could agree there....
And, if Haslem and Farmer have made a TON of mistakes, why do they get a pass, while Pettine gets fired? Are mistakes not part of the learning process for new players.....Owners?....GMs?.....and Coaches?
Second: Yes. He DID hire his own staff at the last second, when there were few to zero quality Coaches available. I think this staff is the BIGGEST part of the problem, because these coaches are the guys who are REALLY hands on with the players. THIS is where the changes need to be made....not at the top. AND, if were gonna "fire" a Coach for his hiring practices, then we should be firing EVERYBODY for their hiring practices......(you listening JIMMY?....""""Mr. I cant Hire Anybody that sticks""""..)
Third: Yes. They are supposed to work together, right?....so......
- Why is Pettine all alone out there. Work together, but take the blame solo?....was that the plan?
- Why does the Coach get a QB he cant stand? Isnt that the most important position on the field? So he's supposed to win with a drunk General he doesnt want?
- And, why does Pettine sit up there and accept the heat and "own it", as he likes to say. But when Farmer does his "Only" pressy, he deflects and basically says "I didnt pick these guys, WE picked these guys".....whose working together there?.....Dude wont even "own it" for his own picks...Instead, he just pushed that mess onto Pettines plate....
- So....no working together.....which was THE WHOLE POINT of this thread.....no acceptance of any responsibility from the Owner or GM, who are SUPPOSED to be part of the "team" and working "with" Pettine..
- If we were winning, those 2 would be front and center, soaking up the accolades.....guaranteed...
Fourth: Our High investments are not performing?...you mean like Dwayne Bowe?....Rob Housler?.....Ben Tate?....Paul Kruger?....Johnny Manziel?......Justin Gilbert?.....cause I dont think these guys are PETTINES fault, yet he's taking the heat for them....isnt he?...where is Farmer?...
Its easy to say some guys started bad.....or, if a player plays poorly, its the coaches fault......Look, I can tell you Haden, Gipson and Whitner all had Pro-bowl years under Pettine...or Kruger had his BEST season ever, under Pettine.....so, what, he didnt suck last year, but suddenly does this year?
Isnt it possible that Haden just started slow(like he has historically, season to season) and then got hurt?....(yes)
Isnt it possible that, after having his best season ever(also under Pettine), that Gipson blew his knee out and then started slow(like most injured guys do)...then got hurt too?....(yes)...
Isnt it possible that Kruger, after having HIS best season ever(also under Pettine) just reverted back to the very average LB he's always been and is putting up the same #'s he's put up in 5 out of his 7 seasons?.....(yes)...
So...is it all Farmer and Haslems fault?....NO...I never said that.....what I said is that it isnt ALL Pettines fault....
I'm not buying the theory none of this is Pettine's fault or he's a gotta keep.
So...again.....Im not saying "none of this is Pettines fault"......or that he's great or a "gotta keep"....
Im saying its a shared responsibility and, without proper talent, its unfair to dump the frustration of 20 years of losing on his back alone.....
Look....this team sucked when Shurmur came in, and sucked after he left...And it sucked when Chud came and it sucked when he left......And it sucked when Pettine came in....and WHOA.....now, its Pettines fault??????
So....if we are to fix the problem, do we fire the visible target, or can we do an honest assessment and make changes where they are needed?....thats all Im asking....
There is NO WAY a quality Coach is gonna watch this....Pettine dangling out there alone....getting ZERO support from the Owner or the GM(who are supposed to be part of the "work together team" you mentioned).....having players he doesnt want thrust upon him.....and still want to come here and Coach....no fucking way...
Farmer and Haslem could promise him the world and all the support he needs..But any smart Coach would see right through that and how THAT went with Pettine....who didnt get good players and didnt get the time he was promised and didnt get any support when things went bad....
So.....if I was Haslem.....
First: Id get with Pettine and, together, work to find some top notch-experienced Coaches going forward...because thats what good organizations do....they adjust and improve....as opposed to just vaporizing and starting over...and over.....and over....and over....
Second: Id fire Farmer.....or, at minimum.....set a performance ultimatum for year 3....and this would be an acceptable thing to do with Pettine too
Third: Id say something....as owner and leader.....to help my fans(and patrons) understand where this team is headed....
So....Poor Mike?.....in a way....Not because he's great and getting a bad rap....but because his bosses and "team mates" have forsaken him.....
But....I think you all will get your wish.....and Mike will be fired......and Haslem and Farmer will huddle and pursue another Coach and more half assed talent.....and it will continue to be a joke.....and the talent will prove to be what it is(bad to average, with a few good guys mixed in).....
And then everyone can debate the "new reason we suck"......
Ok....fair write up and I agree with much of what you said....let me say that I am not saying Pettine is great....nor am I saying he's done a super job....nor am I saying he "must" stay.......thats not the point Im making here....
What I said was that his "bosses" have hung him out to dry and, "if they are working together", as you said, then they have a real funny way of showing it......and if they are ALL culpable(which they are), then why is Pettine all alone when its time to answer questions????....to me, that shows weak leadership on the part of Farmer and Haslem....while Pettine is showing strength.....
But, I will address your points, since there is clearly a difference of opinion here....
First: If you agree that Farmer sucks, how can you say Pettine has the talent to win.???...or is the premise that he doesnt have the talent to win, but he should at least do a little better???......cause I could agree there....
And, if Haslem and Farmer have made a TON of mistakes, why do they get a pass, while Pettine gets fired? Are mistakes not part of the learning process for new players.....Owners?....GMs?.....and Coaches?
Second: Yes. He DID hire his own staff at the last second, when there were few to zero quality Coaches available. I think this staff is the BIGGEST part of the problem, because these coaches are the guys who are REALLY hands on with the players. THIS is where the changes need to be made....not at the top. AND, if were gonna "fire" a Coach for his hiring practices, then we should be firing EVERYBODY for their hiring practices......(you listening JIMMY?....""""Mr. I cant Hire Anybody that sticks""""..)
Third: Yes. They are supposed to work together, right?....so......
- Why is Pettine all alone out there. Work together, but take the blame solo?....was that the plan?
- Why does the Coach get a QB he cant stand? Isnt that the most important position on the field? So he's supposed to win with a drunk General he doesnt want?
- And, why does Pettine sit up there and accept the heat and "own it", as he likes to say. But when Farmer does his "Only" pressy, he deflects and basically says "I didnt pick these guys, WE picked these guys".....whose working together there?.....Dude wont even "own it" for his own picks...Instead, he just pushed that mess onto Pettines plate....
- So....no working together.....which was THE WHOLE POINT of this thread.....no acceptance of any responsibility from the Owner or GM, who are SUPPOSED to be part of the "team" and working "with" Pettine..
- If we were winning, those 2 would be front and center, soaking up the accolades.....guaranteed...
Fourth: Our High investments are not performing?...you mean like Dwayne Bowe?....Rob Housler?.....Ben Tate?....Paul Kruger?....Johnny Manziel?......Justin Gilbert?.....cause I dont think these guys are PETTINES fault, yet he's taking the heat for them....isnt he?...where is Farmer?...
Its easy to say some guys started bad.....or, if a player plays poorly, its the coaches fault......Look, I can tell you Haden, Gipson and Whitner all had Pro-bowl years under Pettine...or Kruger had his BEST season ever, under Pettine.....so, what, he didnt suck last year, but suddenly does this year?
Isnt it possible that Haden just started slow(like he has historically, season to season) and then got hurt?....(yes)
Isnt it possible that, after having his best season ever(also under Pettine), that Gipson blew his knee out and then started slow(like most injured guys do)...then got hurt too?....(yes)...
Isnt it possible that Kruger, after having HIS best season ever(also under Pettine) just reverted back to the very average LB he's always been and is putting up the same #'s he's put up in 5 out of his 7 seasons?.....(yes)...
So...is it all Farmer and Haslems fault?....NO...I never said that.....what I said is that it isnt ALL Pettines fault....
So...again.....Im not saying "none of this is Pettines fault"......or that he's great or a "gotta keep"....
Im saying its a shared responsibility and, without proper talent, its unfair to dump the frustration of 20 years of losing on his back alone.....
Look....this team sucked when Shurmur came in, and sucked after he left...And it sucked when Chud came and it sucked when he left......And it sucked when Pettine came in....and WHOA.....now, its Pettines fault??????
So....if we are to fix the problem, do we fire the visible target, or can we do an honest assessment and make changes where they are needed?....thats all Im asking....
There is NO WAY a quality Coach is gonna watch this....Pettine dangling out there alone....getting ZERO support from the Owner or the GM(who are supposed to be part of the "work together team" you mentioned).....having players he doesnt want thrust upon him.....and still want to come here and Coach....no fucking way...
Farmer and Haslem could promise him the world and all the support he needs..But any smart Coach would see right through that and how THAT went with Pettine....who didnt get good players and didnt get the time he was promised and didnt get any support when things went bad....
So.....if I was Haslem.....
First: Id get with Pettine and, together, work to find some top notch-experienced Coaches going forward...because thats what good organizations do....they adjust and improve....as opposed to just vaporizing and starting over...and over.....and over....and over....
Second: Id fire Farmer.....or, at minimum.....set a performance ultimatum for year 3....and this would be an acceptable thing to do with Pettine too
Third: Id say something....as owner and leader.....to help my fans(and patrons) understand where this team is headed....
So....Poor Mike?.....in a way....Not because he's great and getting a bad rap....but because his bosses and "team mates" have forsaken him.....
But....I think you all will get your wish.....and Mike will be fired......and Haslem and Farmer will huddle and pursue another Coach and more half assed talent.....and it will continue to be a joke.....and the talent will prove to be what it is(bad to average, with a few good guys mixed in).....
And then everyone can debate the "new reason we suck"......
It's the owner. Just like marissa meyer at yahoo...she knows shit about the business and drove it to the point where they have to start selling pieces of it or the whole thing. Football is a business and the asshole at the top has run this ship to the ground.
-
Ok....fair write up and I agree with much of what you said....let me say that I am not saying Pettine is great....nor am I saying he's done a super job....nor am I saying he "must" stay.......thats not the point Im making here....
What I said was that his "bosses" have hung him out to dry and, "if they are working together", as you said, then they have a real funny way of showing it......and if they are ALL culpable(which they are), then why is Pettine all alone when its time to answer questions????....to me, that shows weak leadership on the part of Farmer and Haslem....while Pettine is showing strength.....
But, I will address your points, since there is clearly a difference of opinion here....
First: If you agree that Farmer sucks, how can you say Pettine has the talent to win.???...or is the premise that he doesnt have the talent to win, but he should at least do a little better???......cause I could agree there....
And, if Haslem and Farmer have made a TON of mistakes, why do they get a pass, while Pettine gets fired? Are mistakes not part of the learning process for new players.....Owners?....GMs?.....and Coaches?
Second: Yes. He DID hire his own staff at the last second, when there were few to zero quality Coaches available. I think this staff is the BIGGEST part of the problem, because these coaches are the guys who are REALLY hands on with the players. THIS is where the changes need to be made....not at the top. AND, if were gonna "fire" a Coach for his hiring practices, then we should be firing EVERYBODY for their hiring practices......(you listening JIMMY?....""""Mr. I cant Hire Anybody that sticks""""..)
Third: Yes. They are supposed to work together, right?....so......
- Why is Pettine all alone out there. Work together, but take the blame solo?....was that the plan?
- Why does the Coach get a QB he cant stand? Isnt that the most important position on the field? So he's supposed to win with a drunk General he doesnt want?
- And, why does Pettine sit up there and accept the heat and "own it", as he likes to say. But when Farmer does his "Only" pressy, he deflects and basically says "I didnt pick these guys, WE picked these guys".....whose working together there?.....Dude wont even "own it" for his own picks...Instead, he just pushed that mess onto Pettines plate....
- So....no working together.....which was THE WHOLE POINT of this thread.....no acceptance of any responsibility from the Owner or GM, who are SUPPOSED to be part of the "team" and working "with" Pettine..
- If we were winning, those 2 would be front and center, soaking up the accolades.....guaranteed...
Fourth: Our High investments are not performing?...you mean like Dwayne Bowe?....Rob Housler?.....Ben Tate?....Paul Kruger?....Johnny Manziel?......Justin Gilbert?.....cause I dont think these guys are PETTINES fault, yet he's taking the heat for them....isnt he?...where is Farmer?...
Its easy to say some guys started bad.....or, if a player plays poorly, its the coaches fault......Look, I can tell you Haden, Gipson and Whitner all had Pro-bowl years under Pettine...or Kruger had his BEST season ever, under Pettine.....so, what, he didnt suck last year, but suddenly does this year?
Isnt it possible that Haden just started slow(like he has historically, season to season) and then got hurt?....(yes)
Isnt it possible that, after having his best season ever(also under Pettine), that Gipson blew his knee out and then started slow(like most injured guys do)...then got hurt too?....(yes)...
Isnt it possible that Kruger, after having HIS best season ever(also under Pettine) just reverted back to the very average LB he's always been and is putting up the same #'s he's put up in 5 out of his 7 seasons?.....(yes)...
So...is it all Farmer and Haslems fault?....NO...I never said that.....what I said is that it isnt ALL Pettines fault....
So...again.....Im not saying "none of this is Pettines fault"......or that he's great or a "gotta keep"....
Im saying its a shared responsibility and, without proper talent, its unfair to dump the frustration of 20 years of losing on his back alone.....
Look....this team sucked when Shurmur came in, and sucked after he left...And it sucked when Chud came and it sucked when he left......And it sucked when Pettine came in....and WHOA.....now, its Pettines fault??????
So....if we are to fix the problem, do we fire the visible target, or can we do an honest assessment and make changes where they are needed?....thats all Im asking....
There is NO WAY a quality Coach is gonna watch this....Pettine dangling out there alone....getting ZERO support from the Owner or the GM(who are supposed to be part of the "work together team" you mentioned).....having players he doesnt want thrust upon him.....and still want to come here and Coach....no fucking way...
Farmer and Haslem could promise him the world and all the support he needs..But any smart Coach would see right through that and how THAT went with Pettine....who didnt get good players and didnt get the time he was promised and didnt get any support when things went bad....
So.....if I was Haslem.....
First: Id get with Pettine and, together, work to find some top notch-experienced Coaches going forward...because thats what good organizations do....they adjust and improve....as opposed to just vaporizing and starting over...and over.....and over....and over....
Second: Id fire Farmer.....or, at minimum.....set a performance ultimatum for year 3....and this would be an acceptable thing to do with Pettine too
Third: Id say something....as owner and leader.....to help my fans(and patrons) understand where this team is headed....
So....Poor Mike?.....in a way....Not because he's great and getting a bad rap....but because his bosses and "team mates" have forsaken him.....
But....I think you all will get your wish.....and Mike will be fired......and Haslem and Farmer will huddle and pursue another Coach and more half assed talent.....and it will continue to be a joke.....and the talent will prove to be what it is(bad to average, with a few good guys mixed in).....
And then everyone can debate the "new reason we suck"......
It's the owner. Just like marissa meyer at yahoo...she knows shit about the business and drove it to the point where they have to start selling pieces of it or the whole thing. Football is a business and the asshole at the top has run this ship to the ground.
-
-
First, I agree Farmer sucks and Haslem has made a ton of mistakes.
Do you really think Haslem, fresh off the 4-12 train wreck from 2013, was thinking - I can't wait to make life Hell on my new Head Coach?
Second, Pettine hired his own coaching staff. For a guy that doesn't want to count on rookies at important positions or look to people with a history of alcoholism - what did his choices of coaches say about that? Poor Mike?
Third, there were many articles and pressers that mentioned this coaching staff and the Head Coach had a lot of input/say on the draft. maybe - just maybe, the owner (Haslem) encouraged them to work together?
Fourth, A lot of our higher investments on defense were off to a bad start this year ...Good teaching? Sound schemes? Or, just all Ray Farmer's and Jimmy Haslem's fault?
My worry was never Jimmy O'Neil and still isn't.
Surprisingly, I agree with Pettine that they're trying.
My guess is what Haslem learned from the Rooneys is when your program has a winning tradition - you get much better candidates interested in your Head Coach vacancies.
Ok....fair write up and I agree with much of what you said....let me say that I am not saying Pettine is great....nor am I saying he's done a super job....nor am I saying he "must" stay.......thats not the point Im making here....
What I said was that his "bosses" have hung him out to dry and, "if they are working together", as you said, then they have a real funny way of showing it......and if they are ALL culpable(which they are), then why is Pettine all alone when its time to answer questions????....to me, that shows weak leadership on the part of Farmer and Haslem....while Pettine is showing strength.....
But, I will address your points, since there is clearly a difference of opinion here....
First: If you agree that Farmer sucks, how can you say Pettine has the talent to win.???...or is the premise that he doesnt have the talent to win, but he should at least do a little better???......cause I could agree there....
And, if Haslem and Farmer have made a TON of mistakes, why do they get a pass, while Pettine gets fired? Are mistakes not part of the learning process for new players.....Owners?....GMs?.....and Coaches?
Second: Yes. He DID hire his own staff at the last second, when there were few to zero quality Coaches available. I think this staff is the BIGGEST part of the problem, because these coaches are the guys who are REALLY hands on with the players. THIS is where the changes need to be made....not at the top. AND, if were gonna "fire" a Coach for his hiring practices, then we should be firing EVERYBODY for their hiring practices......(you listening JIMMY?....""""Mr. I cant Hire Anybody that sticks""""..)
Third: Yes. They are supposed to work together, right?....so......
- Why is Pettine all alone out there. Work together, but take the blame solo?....was that the plan?
- Why does the Coach get a QB he cant stand? Isnt that the most important position on the field? So he's supposed to win with a drunk General he doesnt want?
- And, why does Pettine sit up there and accept the heat and "own it", as he likes to say. But when Farmer does his "Only" pressy, he deflects and basically says "I didnt pick these guys, WE picked these guys".....whose working together there?.....Dude wont even "own it" for his own picks...Instead, he just pushed that mess onto Pettines plate....
- So....no working together.....which was THE WHOLE POINT of this thread.....no acceptance of any responsibility from the Owner or GM, who are SUPPOSED to be part of the "team" and working "with" Pettine..
- If we were winning, those 2 would be front and center, soaking up the accolades.....guaranteed...
Fourth: Our High investments are not performing?...you mean like Dwayne Bowe?....Rob Housler?.....Ben Tate?....Paul Kruger?....Johnny Manziel?......Justin Gilbert?.....cause I dont think these guys are PETTINES fault, yet he's taking the heat for them....isnt he?...where is Farmer?...
Its easy to say some guys started bad.....or, if a player plays poorly, its the coaches fault......Look, I can tell you Haden, Gipson and Whitner all had Pro-bowl years under Pettine...or Kruger had his BEST season ever, under Pettine.....so, what, he didnt suck last year, but suddenly does this year?
Isnt it possible that Haden just started slow(like he has historically, season to season) and then got hurt?....(yes)
Isnt it possible that, after having his best season ever(also under Pettine), that Gipson blew his knee out and then started slow(like most injured guys do)...then got hurt too?....(yes)...
Isnt it possible that Kruger, after having HIS best season ever(also under Pettine) just reverted back to the very average LB he's always been and is putting up the same #'s he's put up in 5 out of his 7 seasons?.....(yes)...
So...is it all Farmer and Haslems fault?....NO...I never said that.....what I said is that it isnt ALL Pettines fault....
I'm not buying the theory none of this is Pettine's fault or he's a gotta keep.
So...again.....Im not saying "none of this is Pettines fault"......or that he's great or a "gotta keep"....
Im saying its a shared responsibility and, without proper talent, its unfair to dump the frustration of 20 years of losing on his back alone.....
Look....this team sucked when Shurmur came in, and sucked after he left...And it sucked when Chud came and it sucked when he left......And it sucked when Pettine came in....and WHOA.....now, its Pettines fault??????
So....if we are to fix the problem, do we fire the visible target, or can we do an honest assessment and make changes where they are needed?....thats all Im asking....
There is NO WAY a quality Coach is gonna watch this....Pettine dangling out there alone....getting ZERO support from the Owner or the GM(who are supposed to be part of the "work together team" you mentioned).....having players he doesnt want thrust upon him.....and still want to come here and Coach....no fucking way...
Farmer and Haslem could promise him the world and all the support he needs..But any smart Coach would see right through that and how THAT went with Pettine....who didnt get good players and didnt get the time he was promised and didnt get any support when things went bad....
So.....if I was Haslem.....
First: Id get with Pettine and, together, work to find some top notch-experienced Coaches going forward...because thats what good organizations do....they adjust and improve....as opposed to just vaporizing and starting over...and over.....and over....and over....
Second: Id fire Farmer.....or, at minimum.....set a performance ultimatum for year 3....and this would be an acceptable thing to do with Pettine too
Third: Id say something....as owner and leader.....to help my fans(and patrons) understand where this team is headed....
So....Poor Mike?.....in a way....Not because he's great and getting a bad rap....but because his bosses and "team mates" have forsaken him.....
But....I think you all will get your wish.....and Mike will be fired......and Haslem and Farmer will huddle and pursue another Coach and more half assed talent.....and it will continue to be a joke.....and the talent will prove to be what it is(bad to average, with a few good guys mixed in).....
And then everyone can debate the "new reason we suck"......
Ok....fair write up and I agree with much of what you said....let me say that I am not saying Pettine is great....nor am I saying he's done a super job....nor am I saying he "must" stay.......thats not the point Im making here....
What I said was that his "bosses" have hung him out to dry and, "if they are working together", as you said, then they have a real funny way of showing it......and if they are ALL culpable(which they are), then why is Pettine all alone when its time to answer questions????....to me, that shows weak leadership on the part of Farmer and Haslem....while Pettine is showing strength.....
But, I will address your points, since there is clearly a difference of opinion here....
First: If you agree that Farmer sucks, how can you say Pettine has the talent to win.???...or is the premise that he doesnt have the talent to win, but he should at least do a little better???......cause I could agree there....
And, if Haslem and Farmer have made a TON of mistakes, why do they get a pass, while Pettine gets fired? Are mistakes not part of the learning process for new players.....Owners?....GMs?.....and Coaches?
Second: Yes. He DID hire his own staff at the last second, when there were few to zero quality Coaches available. I think this staff is the BIGGEST part of the problem, because these coaches are the guys who are REALLY hands on with the players. THIS is where the changes need to be made....not at the top. AND, if were gonna "fire" a Coach for his hiring practices, then we should be firing EVERYBODY for their hiring practices......(you listening JIMMY?....""""Mr. I cant Hire Anybody that sticks""""..)
Third: Yes. They are supposed to work together, right?....so......
- Why is Pettine all alone out there. Work together, but take the blame solo?....was that the plan?
- Why does the Coach get a QB he cant stand? Isnt that the most important position on the field? So he's supposed to win with a drunk General he doesnt want?
- And, why does Pettine sit up there and accept the heat and "own it", as he likes to say. But when Farmer does his "Only" pressy, he deflects and basically says "I didnt pick these guys, WE picked these guys".....whose working together there?.....Dude wont even "own it" for his own picks...Instead, he just pushed that mess onto Pettines plate....
- So....no working together.....which was THE WHOLE POINT of this thread.....no acceptance of any responsibility from the Owner or GM, who are SUPPOSED to be part of the "team" and working "with" Pettine..
- If we were winning, those 2 would be front and center, soaking up the accolades.....guaranteed...
Fourth: Our High investments are not performing?...you mean like Dwayne Bowe?....Rob Housler?.....Ben Tate?....Paul Kruger?....Johnny Manziel?......Justin Gilbert?.....cause I dont think these guys are PETTINES fault, yet he's taking the heat for them....isnt he?...where is Farmer?...
Its easy to say some guys started bad.....or, if a player plays poorly, its the coaches fault......Look, I can tell you Haden, Gipson and Whitner all had Pro-bowl years under Pettine...or Kruger had his BEST season ever, under Pettine.....so, what, he didnt suck last year, but suddenly does this year?
Isnt it possible that Haden just started slow(like he has historically, season to season) and then got hurt?....(yes)
Isnt it possible that, after having his best season ever(also under Pettine), that Gipson blew his knee out and then started slow(like most injured guys do)...then got hurt too?....(yes)...
Isnt it possible that Kruger, after having HIS best season ever(also under Pettine) just reverted back to the very average LB he's always been and is putting up the same #'s he's put up in 5 out of his 7 seasons?.....(yes)...
So...is it all Farmer and Haslems fault?....NO...I never said that.....what I said is that it isnt ALL Pettines fault....
So...again.....Im not saying "none of this is Pettines fault"......or that he's great or a "gotta keep"....
Im saying its a shared responsibility and, without proper talent, its unfair to dump the frustration of 20 years of losing on his back alone.....
Look....this team sucked when Shurmur came in, and sucked after he left...And it sucked when Chud came and it sucked when he left......And it sucked when Pettine came in....and WHOA.....now, its Pettines fault??????
So....if we are to fix the problem, do we fire the visible target, or can we do an honest assessment and make changes where they are needed?....thats all Im asking....
There is NO WAY a quality Coach is gonna watch this....Pettine dangling out there alone....getting ZERO support from the Owner or the GM(who are supposed to be part of the "work together team" you mentioned).....having players he doesnt want thrust upon him.....and still want to come here and Coach....no fucking way...
Farmer and Haslem could promise him the world and all the support he needs..But any smart Coach would see right through that and how THAT went with Pettine....who didnt get good players and didnt get the time he was promised and didnt get any support when things went bad....
So.....if I was Haslem.....
First: Id get with Pettine and, together, work to find some top notch-experienced Coaches going forward...because thats what good organizations do....they adjust and improve....as opposed to just vaporizing and starting over...and over.....and over....and over....
Second: Id fire Farmer.....or, at minimum.....set a performance ultimatum for year 3....and this would be an acceptable thing to do with Pettine too
Third: Id say something....as owner and leader.....to help my fans(and patrons) understand where this team is headed....
So....Poor Mike?.....in a way....Not because he's great and getting a bad rap....but because his bosses and "team mates" have forsaken him.....
But....I think you all will get your wish.....and Mike will be fired......and Haslem and Farmer will huddle and pursue another Coach and more half assed talent.....and it will continue to be a joke.....and the talent will prove to be what it is(bad to average, with a few good guys mixed in).....
And then everyone can debate the "new reason we suck"......
Thanks Mud - you did a great job with that. As we've both said, we have a lot of common ground in that Farmer sucks and Jimmy has made tons of mistakes. Farmer needs to be gone yesterday and he's still here so this is Jimmy making another mistake. There are no alternatives to the owner so we have to hope he expedites this learning curve we're gagging on. I'm not going to pretend to know what he does under the roof at the franchise headquarters.
As for Pettine flying solo - that's what Ken Whisenhunt did in TN without a FO or ownership holding any press conferences all the while shit was hitting fan here in Nashville. Then, they just fired him. Any wonder why they're the ones competing with us for the first overall pick in 2016? A lot of people here in Nashville felt like you do about it while others argued on the radio that this is what one signs up for when they choose an organization in chaos. Prior to hiring Pettine and promoting Farmer, Jimmy got some angry feedback that anyone could have heard regarding the 3 Stooges. Looks to me like he's trying to show those that spoke up for a larger portion of the fanbase he isn't going to interrupt the show until the curtains drop on the season.
If you don't like Pettine being a scapegoat for Jimmy and Farmer - it isn't like he's been tossing his inexperienced DC a life-jacket for Pettine's/Ryan's very flawed Defensive Scheme. Then again, it's what O'Neil signed up for when he agreed to accepting the position. Leaders of men shouldn't require excuses or hiding places. Not for nothing, we started 2014 out 7-4 when Manziel was choosing to be a party animal over football so how bad of a decision was it to bring in a QB capable of better passer ratings and 3rd down efficiency than Brian Hoyer via Josh McCown? If only our rookie OC (selected by Pettine) could have found a better way to protect his veteran passer in the pocket or provide the QB with better balance than 31st ranked running game behind Thomas (3rd pick overall w/ 8 Pro Bowls, Bitonio (2nd rd pick), Mack (1st rd pick), Schwartz (2nd rd pick) and Greco (coming off career best season in 2014). Hard to buy the lack of talent & nothing to work with upfront argument more than the bad choice of Moeller as the position coach.
Here's why I don't think Pettine is our answer:
1) Choice of flawed scheme and it's the only one he knows and has a comfort with.
2) Choice of coaches developing young players and vets into their systems. When players begin to perceive these systems as flawed (also shaking out in Buffalo) - they question square pegs round holes while listening to we just have to work harder. Anyone ever want to consider an alternative like we need to work smarter not harder? Watch the Special Teams in each of the last 2 games. If that's not convenient, check out the trend of 5 straight games of Cleveland giving up more than 30 points. Did Sean Payton keep or fire such a flawed scheme with Ryan origins?
3) I need to see more than just Schwartz, Benjamin and Barnidge have improved since 2014. I COULD have said McCown if he was able to survive. I COULD have said Manziel but that brief light at the end of the tunnel became the headlamp of another oncoming train.
4) I'd like to know what's really going on with Joe Haden and if there's any correlation to him not wanting to jeopardize the rest of his career constantly taking on a bunch of RBs turning the corner - unobstructed with a full head of steam. Looks to me like Haden knows how to fail the concussion test every week as one of the only guys in the league unable to overcome a concussion within 8 weeks. Do I blame him if it is his way of protesting a scheme that doesn't belong in the NFL? His salary tells me I should blame him but concern for his future tells me I shouldn't blame him. Alternative? Head Coach needs to tune into what is going on all around him or it becomes easier than ever to lose veterans and team leaders.
5) Pettine was the one assuring everyone he and Farmer had a terrific working relationship by pointing out how much input/say he and his staff had for the draft. Sounds like his staff had just as much or more say than his scouts. O'Neil's presser before and after the draft also made that clear when he said Shelton/Orchard were helping our Oline Coaches rule out many offensive line prospects. Sounds like a lot of say from the Pett shop boys IMO. I seem to recall a big fondness for T West came from the coaching staff. If Pettine was thinking about predicating the success of his defense off the corner position (like he had from Revis and Cromartie in NY) guess what position we ended up drafting first in 2014? Cornerback.
6) Pettine doesn't want to count on rookies in important places; but he hired a rookie OC and a rookie DC. Shanny wasn't bad if you like a Cinderella story with an early midnight (also unfolding in ATL as we speak). When his dad ran the zbs - he had Alex Gibb on staff/consultant, which came in handy once enough teams had it on film in order to get it to the next level. More specifically, experience mattered come time for game day/second half adjustments.
7) Pettine doesn't like heavy partying off the field especially if it's a QB/leader; but he chose that type of history as his Offensive Line Coach? What kind of message does this send to the team in terms of consistency? And why did he okay Manziel's first trip to Vegas if he was so concerned about his partying? I heard his presser when he clarified Manziel asked for his permission and he granted it since he had exceeded their expectations at the time on www.clevelandbrowns.com.
2nd year of a scheme in quest of continuity should show more playing faster than playing confused. I'm seeing more playing confused which is why that statistics reflecting that doesn't surprise me.9) Talent argument? Since the 2015 season started, which of these veterans here before Pettine - look to be playing up to up their standard? Joe Thomas? Alex Mack? John Greco? Paul Kruger? Desmond Bryant? Joe Haden (before his injury)? Tashaun Gipson? John Hughes? Bark Mingo? How about younger players like Bitonio? The Crow that was averaging 5.4 yards a carry 8-10 weeks into 2014? Is Gabriel better or worse? K'Wuan Williams? Gilbert? Kirksey?
10) Does a 31st ranked running game, 32 ranked Defense and undisciplined Special Teams really buy tenure? If any of us performed like that at work - we'd be in charge of the broom closet.
Yeah, I get the Manziel stuff sucks but QB hasn't really been this team's nightmare in 2015. That said, asking any QB in this league to overcome the margin of error this defense and running game sentences the passer to every week has been the ultimate show stopper. The 1 week we played ideal sic em, sock em and sack em - we rathoused TN by double digits.
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Ok....fair write up and I agree with much of what you said....let me say that I am not saying Pettine is great....nor am I saying he's done a super job....nor am I saying he "must" stay.......thats not the point Im making here....
What I said was that his "bosses" have hung him out to dry and, "if they are working together", as you said, then they have a real funny way of showing it......and if they are ALL culpable(which they are), then why is Pettine all alone when its time to answer questions????....to me, that shows weak leadership on the part of Farmer and Haslem....while Pettine is showing strength.....
But, I will address your points, since there is clearly a difference of opinion here....
First: If you agree that Farmer sucks, how can you say Pettine has the talent to win.???...or is the premise that he doesnt have the talent to win, but he should at least do a little better???......cause I could agree there....
And, if Haslem and Farmer have made a TON of mistakes, why do they get a pass, while Pettine gets fired? Are mistakes not part of the learning process for new players.....Owners?....GMs?.....and Coaches?
Second: Yes. He DID hire his own staff at the last second, when there were few to zero quality Coaches available. I think this staff is the BIGGEST part of the problem, because these coaches are the guys who are REALLY hands on with the players. THIS is where the changes need to be made....not at the top. AND, if were gonna "fire" a Coach for his hiring practices, then we should be firing EVERYBODY for their hiring practices......(you listening JIMMY?....""""Mr. I cant Hire Anybody that sticks""""..)
Third: Yes. They are supposed to work together, right?....so......
- Why is Pettine all alone out there. Work together, but take the blame solo?....was that the plan?
- Why does the Coach get a QB he cant stand? Isnt that the most important position on the field? So he's supposed to win with a drunk General he doesnt want?
- And, why does Pettine sit up there and accept the heat and "own it", as he likes to say. But when Farmer does his "Only" pressy, he deflects and basically says "I didnt pick these guys, WE picked these guys".....whose working together there?.....Dude wont even "own it" for his own picks...Instead, he just pushed that mess onto Pettines plate....
- So....no working together.....which was THE WHOLE POINT of this thread.....no acceptance of any responsibility from the Owner or GM, who are SUPPOSED to be part of the "team" and working "with" Pettine..
- If we were winning, those 2 would be front and center, soaking up the accolades.....guaranteed...
Fourth: Our High investments are not performing?...you mean like Dwayne Bowe?....Rob Housler?.....Ben Tate?....Paul Kruger?....Johnny Manziel?......Justin Gilbert?.....cause I dont think these guys are PETTINES fault, yet he's taking the heat for them....isnt he?...where is Farmer?...
Its easy to say some guys started bad.....or, if a player plays poorly, its the coaches fault......Look, I can tell you Haden, Gipson and Whitner all had Pro-bowl years under Pettine...or Kruger had his BEST season ever, under Pettine.....so, what, he didnt suck last year, but suddenly does this year?
Isnt it possible that Haden just started slow(like he has historically, season to season) and then got hurt?....(yes)
Isnt it possible that, after having his best season ever(also under Pettine), that Gipson blew his knee out and then started slow(like most injured guys do)...then got hurt too?....(yes)...
Isnt it possible that Kruger, after having HIS best season ever(also under Pettine) just reverted back to the very average LB he's always been and is putting up the same #'s he's put up in 5 out of his 7 seasons?.....(yes)...
So...is it all Farmer and Haslems fault?....NO...I never said that.....what I said is that it isnt ALL Pettines fault....
So...again.....Im not saying "none of this is Pettines fault"......or that he's great or a "gotta keep"....
Im saying its a shared responsibility and, without proper talent, its unfair to dump the frustration of 20 years of losing on his back alone.....
Look....this team sucked when Shurmur came in, and sucked after he left...And it sucked when Chud came and it sucked when he left......And it sucked when Pettine came in....and WHOA.....now, its Pettines fault??????
So....if we are to fix the problem, do we fire the visible target, or can we do an honest assessment and make changes where they are needed?....thats all Im asking....
There is NO WAY a quality Coach is gonna watch this....Pettine dangling out there alone....getting ZERO support from the Owner or the GM(who are supposed to be part of the "work together team" you mentioned).....having players he doesnt want thrust upon him.....and still want to come here and Coach....no fucking way...
Farmer and Haslem could promise him the world and all the support he needs..But any smart Coach would see right through that and how THAT went with Pettine....who didnt get good players and didnt get the time he was promised and didnt get any support when things went bad....
So.....if I was Haslem.....
First: Id get with Pettine and, together, work to find some top notch-experienced Coaches going forward...because thats what good organizations do....they adjust and improve....as opposed to just vaporizing and starting over...and over.....and over....and over....
Second: Id fire Farmer.....or, at minimum.....set a performance ultimatum for year 3....and this would be an acceptable thing to do with Pettine too
Third: Id say something....as owner and leader.....to help my fans(and patrons) understand where this team is headed....
So....Poor Mike?.....in a way....Not because he's great and getting a bad rap....but because his bosses and "team mates" have forsaken him.....
But....I think you all will get your wish.....and Mike will be fired......and Haslem and Farmer will huddle and pursue another Coach and more half assed talent.....and it will continue to be a joke.....and the talent will prove to be what it is(bad to average, with a few good guys mixed in).....
And then everyone can debate the "new reason we suck"......
Thanks Mud - you did a great job with that. As we've both said, we have a lot of common ground in that Farmer sucks and Jimmy has made tons of mistakes. Farmer needs to be gone yesterday and he's still here so this is Jimmy making another mistake. There are no alternatives to the owner so we have to hope he expedites this learning curve we're gagging on. I'm not going to pretend to know what he does under the roof at the franchise headquarters.
As for Pettine flying solo - that's what Ken Whisenhunt did in TN without a FO or ownership holding any press conferences all the while shit was hitting fan here in Nashville. Then, they just fired him. Any wonder why they're the ones competing with us for the first overall pick in 2016? A lot of people here in Nashville felt like you do about it while others argued on the radio that this is what one signs up for when they choose an organization in chaos. Prior to hiring Pettine and promoting Farmer, Jimmy got some angry feedback that anyone could have heard regarding the 3 Stooges. Looks to me like he's trying to show those that spoke up for a larger portion of the fanbase he isn't going to interrupt the show until the curtains drop on the season.
If you don't like Pettine being a scapegoat for Jimmy and Farmer - it isn't like he's been tossing his inexperienced DC a life-jacket for Pettine's/Ryan's very flawed Defensive Scheme. Then again, it's what O'Neil signed up for when he agreed to accepting the position. Leaders of men shouldn't require excuses or hiding places. Not for nothing, we started 2014 out 7-4 when Manziel was choosing to be a party animal over football so how bad of a decision was it to bring in a QB capable of better passer ratings and 3rd down efficiency than Brian Hoyer via Josh McCown? If only our rookie OC (selected by Pettine) could have found a better way to protect his veteran passer in the pocket or provide the QB with better balance than 31st ranked running game behind Thomas (3rd pick overall w/ 8 Pro Bowls, Bitonio (2nd rd pick), Mack (1st rd pick), Schwartz (2nd rd pick) and Greco (coming off career best season in 2014). Hard to buy the lack of talent & nothing to work with upfront argument more than the bad choice of Moeller as the position coach.
Here's why I don't think Pettine is our answer:
1) Choice of flawed scheme and it's the only one he knows and has a comfort with.
2) Choice of coaches developing young players and vets into their systems. When players begin to perceive these systems as flawed (also shaking out in Buffalo) - they question square pegs round holes while listening to we just have to work harder. Anyone ever want to consider an alternative like we need to work smarter not harder? Watch the Special Teams in each of the last 2 games. If that's not convenient, check out the trend of 5 straight games of Cleveland giving up more than 30 points. Did Sean Payton keep or fire such a flawed scheme with Ryan origins?
3) I need to see more than just Schwartz, Benjamin and Barnidge have improved since 2014. I COULD have said McCown if he was able to survive. I COULD have said Manziel but that brief light at the end of the tunnel became the headlamp of another oncoming train.
4) I'd like to know what's really going on with Joe Haden and if there's any correlation to him not wanting to jeopardize the rest of his career constantly taking on a bunch of RBs turning the corner - unobstructed with a full head of steam. Looks to me like Haden knows how to fail the concussion test every week as one of the only guys in the league unable to overcome a concussion within 8 weeks. Do I blame him if it is his way of protesting a scheme that doesn't belong in the NFL? His salary tells me I should blame him but concern for his future tells me I shouldn't blame him. Alternative? Head Coach needs to tune into what is going on all around him or it becomes easier than ever to lose veterans and team leaders.
5) Pettine was the one assuring everyone he and Farmer had a terrific working relationship by pointing out how much input/say he and his staff had for the draft. Sounds like his staff had just as much or more say than his scouts. O'Neil's presser before and after the draft also made that clear when he said Shelton/Orchard were helping our Oline Coaches rule out many offensive line prospects. Sounds like a lot of say from the Pett shop boys IMO. I seem to recall a big fondness for T West came from the coaching staff. If Pettine was thinking about predicating the success of his defense off the corner position (like he had from Revis and Cromartie in NY) guess what position we ended up drafting first in 2014? Cornerback.
6) Pettine doesn't want to count on rookies in important places; but he hired a rookie OC and a rookie DC. Shanny wasn't bad if you like a Cinderella story with an early midnight (also unfolding in ATL as we speak). When his dad ran the zbs - he had Alex Gibb on staff/consultant, which came in handy once enough teams had it on film in order to get it to the next level. More specifically, experience mattered come time for game day/second half adjustments.
7) Pettine doesn't like heavy partying off the field especially if it's a QB/leader; but he chose that type of history as his Offensive Line Coach? What kind of message does this send to the team in terms of consistency? And why did he okay Manziel's first trip to Vegas if he was so concerned about his partying? I heard his presser when he clarified Manziel asked for his permission and he granted it since he had exceeded their expectations at the time on www.clevelandbrowns.com.
2nd year of a scheme in quest of continuity should show more playing faster than playing confused. I'm seeing more playing confused which is why that statistics reflecting that doesn't surprise me.9) Talent argument? Since the 2015 season started, which of these veterans here before Pettine - look to be playing up to up their standard? Joe Thomas? Alex Mack? John Greco? Paul Kruger? Desmond Bryant? Joe Haden (before his injury)? Tashaun Gipson? John Hughes? Bark Mingo? How about younger players like Bitonio? The Crow that was averaging 5.4 yards a carry 8-10 weeks into 2014? Is Gabriel better or worse? K'Wuan Williams? Gilbert? Kirksey?
10) Does a 31st ranked running game, 32 ranked Defense and undisciplined Special Teams really buy tenure? If any of us performed like that at work - we'd be in charge of the broom closet.
Yeah, I get the Manziel stuff sucks but QB hasn't really been this team's nightmare in 2015. That said, asking any QB in this league to overcome the margin of error this defense and running game sentences the passer to every week has been the ultimate show stopper. The 1 week we played ideal sic em, sock em and sack em - we rathoused TN by double digits.
Well Fluges....I guess we have completely different perspectives....and I prefer NOT to make broad assumptions, while many here choose to do the opposite......usually you are so sensible, but I think you are working overtime to try to peg this on Pettine, when that isnt the case....
Here's why I don't think Pettine is our answer:
1) Choice of flawed scheme and it's the only one he knows and has a comfort with.
No one has shown me this.....not one person has been able to explain the change in scheme or how its made us worse....lots of pointing to it, but zero explaination....Ive studied the crap out of it and my take is the pass defense let us down and the LB's have played poorly.....watch the games and I can show you LOTS of plays we lost due to lack of talent and effort(lots)....but have yet to see where scheme is at fault.....
2) Choice of coaches developing young players and vets into their systems. When players begin to perceive these systems as flawed (also shaking out in Buffalo) - they question square pegs round holes while listening to we just have to work harder. Anyone ever want to consider an alternative like we need to work smarter not harder? Watch the Special Teams in each of the last 2 games. If that's not convenient, check out the trend of 5 straight games of Cleveland giving up more than 30 points. Did Sean Payton keep or fire such a flawed scheme with Ryan origins?
Square peg, round hole.....yet another cliche I keep hearing.....I dont care what Sean Payton did, it's not our situation here(same with Buffalo and their crying).....those guys in Buffalo WEREN'T crying when Pett was there....were they?
3) I need to see more than just Schwartz, Benjamin and Barnidge have improved since 2014. I COULD have said McCown if he was able to survive. I COULD have said Manziel but that brief light at the end of the tunnel became the headlamp of another oncoming train.
McCown DID get better.....had his best season ever, actually......Last season Kruger, Gipson, Greco and Skrine had career years too.....so you cant balme the coach when they are bad, if you wont allow him any slack when they have career years?....that's unfair and unbalanced....
4) I'd like to know what's really going on with Joe Haden and if there's any correlation to him not wanting to jeopardize the rest of his career constantly taking on a bunch of RBs turning the corner - unobstructed with a full head of steam. Looks to me like Haden knows how to fail the concussion test every week as one of the only guys in the league unable to overcome a concussion within 8 weeks. Do I blame him if it is his way of protesting a scheme that doesn't belong in the NFL? His salary tells me I should blame him but concern for his future tells me I shouldn't blame him. Alternative? Head Coach needs to tune into what is going on all around him or it becomes easier than ever to lose veterans and team leaders.
Massive sweeping assumptions here.....there is ZERO reason to think any of this is true....except it plays well into your point of view....but history would tell me that s not Hadens MO, so Il stick with him just being injured....
5) Pettine was the one assuring everyone he and Farmer had a terrific working relationship by pointing out how much input/say he and his staff had for the draft. Sounds like his staff had just as much or more say than his scouts. O'Neil's presser before and after the draft also made that clear when he said Shelton/Orchard were helping our Oline Coaches rule out many offensive line prospects. Sounds like a lot of say from the Pett shop boys IMO. I seem to recall a big fondness for T West came from the coaching staff. If Pettine was thinking about predicating the success of his defense off the corner position (like he had from Revis and Cromartie in NY) guess what position we ended up drafting first in 2014? Cornerback.
So, Pettine was i on some of the picks.....Id expect ANY Coach to have "some say".....doesnt mean he scouted them or knows the details, that is on the GM.....so, Id say the GM/Scouts bring the info to the Coach and they decide together who is most suitable for the team....BUT, if GM doesnt tell COACH that the players have issues, how is the Coach gonna make an informed decision...???
Do you actually think that Farmer came to Pettine and said I have a great CB, QB and RB in line, and all have major head issues....do you want them?
6) Pettine doesn't want to count on rookies in important places; but he hired a rookie OC and a rookie DC. Shanny wasn't bad if you like a Cinderella story with an early midnight (also unfolding in ATL as we speak). When his dad ran the zbs - he had Alex Gibb on staff/consultant, which came in handy once enough teams had it on film in order to get it to the next level. More specifically, experience mattered come time for game day/second half adjustments.
Hmmm......Ive seen rookies like Bitonio, West, Crowell, Gabriel, Kwaun, Duke, Desir, Campbell, Shelton, Cooper, Orchard and Kirksey ALL play as rookies under Pettine....so, he doesnt hate em all, now does he?
And Ive talked a lot about the lac of experience on the staff.....which, I believe, can be improved. There were NO good coaches to hire at the last second, so where was Pettine supposed to go for coaches?....the staff needs adjustment, not fired...and THIS theme will repeat if we hire another new coach this year.......
7) Pettine doesn't like heavy partying off the field especially if it's a QB/leader; but he chose that type of history as his Offensive Line Coach? What kind of message does this send to the team in terms of consistency? And why did he okay Manziel's first trip to Vegas if he was so concerned about his partying? I heard his presser when he clarified Manziel asked for his permission and he granted it since he had exceeded their expectations at the time on www.clevelandbrowns.com.
Convenient argument.....Pettine doesnt like drunk QB's who dont show up to practice or play....huge difference.....
You wanna blame Pettine for what his drunk coach did?....fine.....but thats weak and kind of a lame attack.....
2nd year of a scheme in quest of continuity should show more playing faster than playing confused. I'm seeing more playing confused which is why that statistics reflecting that doesn't surprise me.I dont see this confusion....I see a lack of talent.....and I see a decimated defensive back field, that WAS the ONLY part of the D we could rely on....and now that its down, its brought the rest of the D with it....
I saw 5 pro bowl players this year....and 3 went down with MAJOR injuries.......How can a team, devoid of talent, absorb the loss of the few good players they have and still be expected to "improve"...???.....that makes zero sense....(and usually you make sense)
9) Talent argument? Since the 2015 season started, which of these veterans here before Pettine - look to be playing up to up their standard? Joe Thomas? Alex Mack? John Greco? Paul Kruger? Desmond Bryant? Joe Haden (before his injury)? Tashaun Gipson? John Hughes? Bark Mingo? How about younger players like Bitonio? The Crow that was averaging 5.4 yards a carry 8-10 weeks into 2014? Is Gabriel better or worse? K'Wuan Williams? Gilbert? Kirksey?....Ill take this challenge....Greco, Kruger and Gipson had "FAR AND AWAY" their best seasons ever, under Pettine....by farrr.....Thomas, Mack, Haden, Bryant, Hughes all have played up t their normal standards.....
Mingo?....basically the same(shitty)....Mack until he was hurt.......Bito? had a GREAT rookie year and then not as strong this year, so do you give Pettine credit for the rookie year?....or only want to blame him for the drop off this year?.....maybe that coach you were complaining about had something to d with that...or maybe some players just have better years than others.....do you know of ANY players that just get better every year, without any ups or downs?.....(please dont say yes, because we ll know they go up and down.....year after year)
,
10) Does a 31st ranked running game, 32 ranked Defense and undisciplined Special Teams really buy tenure? If any of us performed like that at work - we'd be in charge of the broom closet.
Again....that would only be if your boss has no clue what and why....
Yeah, I get the Manziel stuff sucks but QB hasn't really been this team's nightmare in 2015. That said, asking any QB in this league to overcome the margin of error this defense and running game sentences the passer to every week has been the ultimate show stopper. The 1 week we played ideal sic em, sock em and sack em - we rathoused TN by double digits.
But look at the "running game">....do you realize it actually improved this year?......do you realize the ONLY difference between last season and this season is the pass defense???.....and the fact that we lost 50% of our starting DB's....and they happened to be our ALL Pros(the good ones)....and the fact that our PASSING DEFENSE gave up double the TD's and got 1/3 of the Ints of last year????
Thats where the problem is.....not on the sideline.....
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Well Fluges....I guess we have completely different perspectives....and I prefer NOT to make broad assumptions, while many here choose to do the opposite......usually you are so sensible, but I think you are working overtime to try to peg this on Pettine, when that isnt the case....
Here's why I don't think Pettine is our answer:
1) Choice of flawed scheme and it's the only one he knows and has a comfort with.
No one has shown me this.....not one person has been able to explain the change in scheme or how its made us worse....lots of pointing to it, but zero explaination....Ive studied the crap out of it and my take is the pass defense let us down and the LB's have played poorly.....watch the games and I can show you LOTS of plays we lost due to lack of talent and effort(lots)....but have yet to see where scheme is at fault.....
2) Choice of coaches developing young players and vets into their systems. When players begin to perceive these systems as flawed (also shaking out in Buffalo) - they question square pegs round holes while listening to we just have to work harder. Anyone ever want to consider an alternative like we need to work smarter not harder? Watch the Special Teams in each of the last 2 games. If that's not convenient, check out the trend of 5 straight games of Cleveland giving up more than 30 points. Did Sean Payton keep or fire such a flawed scheme with Ryan origins?
Square peg, round hole.....yet another cliche I keep hearing.....I dont care what Sean Payton did, it's not our situation here(same with Buffalo and their crying).....those guys in Buffalo WEREN'T crying when Pett was there....were they?
3) I need to see more than just Schwartz, Benjamin and Barnidge have improved since 2014. I COULD have said McCown if he was able to survive. I COULD have said Manziel but that brief light at the end of the tunnel became the headlamp of another oncoming train.
McCown DID get better.....had his best season ever, actually......Last season Kruger, Gipson, Greco and Skrine had career years too.....so you cant balme the coach when they are bad, if you wont allow him any slack when they have career years?....that's unfair and unbalanced....
4) I'd like to know what's really going on with Joe Haden and if there's any correlation to him not wanting to jeopardize the rest of his career constantly taking on a bunch of RBs turning the corner - unobstructed with a full head of steam. Looks to me like Haden knows how to fail the concussion test every week as one of the only guys in the league unable to overcome a concussion within 8 weeks. Do I blame him if it is his way of protesting a scheme that doesn't belong in the NFL? His salary tells me I should blame him but concern for his future tells me I shouldn't blame him. Alternative? Head Coach needs to tune into what is going on all around him or it becomes easier than ever to lose veterans and team leaders.
Massive sweeping assumptions here.....there is ZERO reason to think any of this is true....except it plays well into your point of view....but history would tell me that s not Hadens MO, so Il stick with him just being injured....
5) Pettine was the one assuring everyone he and Farmer had a terrific working relationship by pointing out how much input/say he and his staff had for the draft. Sounds like his staff had just as much or more say than his scouts. O'Neil's presser before and after the draft also made that clear when he said Shelton/Orchard were helping our Oline Coaches rule out many offensive line prospects. Sounds like a lot of say from the Pett shop boys IMO. I seem to recall a big fondness for T West came from the coaching staff. If Pettine was thinking about predicating the success of his defense off the corner position (like he had from Revis and Cromartie in NY) guess what position we ended up drafting first in 2014? Cornerback.
So, Pettine was i on some of the picks.....Id expect ANY Coach to have "some say".....doesnt mean he scouted them or knows the details, that is on the GM.....so, Id say the GM/Scouts bring the info to the Coach and they decide together who is most suitable for the team....BUT, if GM doesnt tell COACH that the players have issues, how is the Coach gonna make an informed decision...???
Do you actually think that Farmer came to Pettine and said I have a great CB, QB and RB in line, and all have major head issues....do you want them?
6) Pettine doesn't want to count on rookies in important places; but he hired a rookie OC and a rookie DC. Shanny wasn't bad if you like a Cinderella story with an early midnight (also unfolding in ATL as we speak). When his dad ran the zbs - he had Alex Gibb on staff/consultant, which came in handy once enough teams had it on film in order to get it to the next level. More specifically, experience mattered come time for game day/second half adjustments.
Hmmm......Ive seen rookies like Bitonio, West, Crowell, Gabriel, Kwaun, Duke, Desir, Campbell, Shelton, Cooper, Orchard and Kirksey ALL play as rookies under Pettine....so, he doesnt hate em all, now does he?
And Ive talked a lot about the lac of experience on the staff.....which, I believe, can be improved. There were NO good coaches to hire at the last second, so where was Pettine supposed to go for coaches?....the staff needs adjustment, not fired...and THIS theme will repeat if we hire another new coach this year.......
7) Pettine doesn't like heavy partying off the field especially if it's a QB/leader; but he chose that type of history as his Offensive Line Coach? What kind of message does this send to the team in terms of consistency? And why did he okay Manziel's first trip to Vegas if he was so concerned about his partying? I heard his presser when he clarified Manziel asked for his permission and he granted it since he had exceeded their expectations at the time on www.clevelandbrowns.com.
Convenient argument.....Pettine doesnt like drunk QB's who dont show up to practice or play....huge difference.....
You wanna blame Pettine for what his drunk coach did?....fine.....but thats weak and kind of a lame attack.....
2nd year of a scheme in quest of continuity should show more playing faster than playing confused. I'm seeing more playing confused which is why that statistics reflecting that doesn't surprise me.I dont see this confusion....I see a lack of talent.....and I see a decimated defensive back field, that WAS the ONLY part of the D we could rely on....and now that its down, its brought the rest of the D with it....
I saw 5 pro bowl players this year....and 3 went down with MAJOR injuries.......How can a team, devoid of talent, absorb the loss of the few good players they have and still be expected to "improve"...???.....that makes zero sense....(and usually you make sense)
9) Talent argument? Since the 2015 season started, which of these veterans here before Pettine - look to be playing up to up their standard? Joe Thomas? Alex Mack? John Greco? Paul Kruger? Desmond Bryant? Joe Haden (before his injury)? Tashaun Gipson? John Hughes? Bark Mingo? How about younger players like Bitonio? The Crow that was averaging 5.4 yards a carry 8-10 weeks into 2014? Is Gabriel better or worse? K'Wuan Williams? Gilbert? Kirksey?....Ill take this challenge....Greco, Kruger and Gipson had "FAR AND AWAY" their best seasons ever, under Pettine....by farrr.....Thomas, Mack, Haden, Bryant, Hughes all have played up t their normal standards.....
Mingo?....basically the same(shitty)....Mack until he was hurt.......Bito? had a GREAT rookie year and then not as strong this year, so do you give Pettine credit for the rookie year?....or only want to blame him for the drop off this year?.....maybe that coach you were complaining about had something to d with that...or maybe some players just have better years than others.....do you know of ANY players that just get better every year, without any ups or downs?.....(please dont say yes, because we ll know they go up and down.....year after year)
,
10) Does a 31st ranked running game, 32 ranked Defense and undisciplined Special Teams really buy tenure? If any of us performed like that at work - we'd be in charge of the broom closet.
Again....that would only be if your boss has no clue what and why....
Yeah, I get the Manziel stuff sucks but QB hasn't really been this team's nightmare in 2015. That said, asking any QB in this league to overcome the margin of error this defense and running game sentences the passer to every week has been the ultimate show stopper. The 1 week we played ideal sic em, sock em and sack em - we rathoused TN by double digits.
But look at the "running game">....do you realize it actually improved this year?......do you realize the ONLY difference between last season and this season is the pass defense???.....and the fact that we lost 50% of our starting DB's....and they happened to be our ALL Pros(the good ones)....and the fact that our PASSING DEFENSE gave up double the TD's and got 1/3 of the Ints of last year????
Thats where the problem is.....not on the sideline.....
Well Fluges....I guess we have completely different perspectives....and I prefer NOT to make broad assumptions, while many here choose to do the opposite......usually you are so sensible, but I think you are working overtime to try to peg this on Pettine, when that isnt the case....
I'm just stubborn on my belief that a Head Coach should be held accountable for HIS choices and decisions such as:
1) Selection of Coaches inclusive of their experience volumes
2) Selection of Defensive Scheme for his rookie DC (Mario Williams spoke up on how flawed the Rex Ryan system is - plus we've seen how many ghost towns it has vrs many situations).
3) He and coaching staff not only decide who makes the team, but who starts and what guys they commit more time to developing. What have we seen from the Pett faves like Hawkins and Gabriel that's so endearing? Phil Simms does one of our games and he calls them a massive mismatch on our QB in the sense when they do get off the line of scrimmage - they're not easy guys to track or throw donward slant passes to. In sticking with them - we cut a guy like Lenz (which a couple vets like Hartline and Whitner felt compelled enough to say it was shocking they cut Lenz).
4) How frequently fundamentals are practiced/repeated such as different methods of disengaging blockers and or just tackling people.
5) How thoroughly assignments are explained such as a long time vet like Tramon Williams expected help over the top on AJ Green and with nobody showing up in area code. I see a lot of ghost towns when we're getting gashed on the ground.
6) How frequently he and staff feels the need to run 320 lb defensive linemen on and off the field after almost every play and yet we wonder why we lack continuity, chemistry and fresh legs?
7) How often guys are on the same page out there and the on field communication. This mis-communication has been omnipresent throughout the season on all 3 units.
Frequency of penalties.9) Repetition of all the same mistakes every single week.
We're going to agree to disagree on your angle Pettine shouldn't be held accountable at all. If the talent was good enough to be competitive in 2014 before a final install was done on defense in 2015 - I'm not seeing where the worst record in the NFL (7 straight losses), 32nd ranked running game heading into today and 32nd ranked defense (w/ 5 straight games allowing over 30 points) should make this everybody but Pettine's fault. Instead of saying the same ole we just gotta continue to work hard - how about we just gotta work smarter for once? Yeah, that makes me nervous his silence on such is a fess up his staff can't prepare us for situational football enough to look like they're working smarter.
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Well Fluges....I guess we have completely different perspectives....and I prefer NOT to make broad assumptions, while many here choose to do the opposite......usually you are so sensible, but I think you are working overtime to try to peg this on Pettine, when that isnt the case....
I'm just stubborn on my belief that a Head Coach should be held accountable for HIS choices and decisions such as:
1) Selection of Coaches inclusive of their experience volumes
2) Selection of Defensive Scheme for his rookie DC (Mario Williams spoke up on how flawed the Rex Ryan system is - plus we've seen how many ghost towns it has vrs many situations).
3) He and coaching staff not only decide who makes the team, but who starts and what guys they commit more time to developing. What have we seen from the Pett faves like Hawkins and Gabriel that's so endearing? Phil Simms does one of our games and he calls them a massive mismatch on our QB in the sense when they do get off the line of scrimmage - they're not easy guys to track or throw donward slant passes to. In sticking with them - we cut a guy like Lenz (which a couple vets like Hartline and Whitner felt compelled enough to say it was shocking they cut Lenz).
4) How frequently fundamentals are practiced/repeated such as different methods of disengaging blockers and or just tackling people.
5) How thoroughly assignments are explained such as a long time vet like Tramon Williams expected help over the top on AJ Green and with nobody showing up in area code. I see a lot of ghost towns when we're getting gashed on the ground.
6) How frequently he and staff feels the need to run 320 lb defensive linemen on and off the field after almost every play and yet we wonder why we lack continuity, chemistry and fresh legs?
7) How often guys are on the same page out there and the on field communication. This mis-communication has been omnipresent throughout the season on all 3 units.
Frequency of penalties.9) Repetition of all the same mistakes every single week.
We're going to agree to disagree on your angle Pettine shouldn't be held accountable at all. If the talent was good enough to be competitive in 2014 before a final install was done on defense in 2015 - I'm not seeing where the worst record in the NFL (7 straight losses), 32nd ranked running game heading into today and 32nd ranked defense (w/ 5 straight games allowing over 30 points) should make this everybody but Pettine's fault. Instead of saying the same ole we just gotta continue to work hard - how about we just gotta work smarter for once? Yeah, that makes me nervous his silence on such is a fess up his staff can't prepare us for situational football enough to look like they're working smarter.
I'm just stubborn on my belief that a Head Coach should be held accountable for HIS choices and decisions
Most professionals can be accountable, without losing their jobs....accountability comes in many ways....
Point of this thread was that the GM and owner refuse to be accountable ad, in fact, are in hiding...while the Coach IS stepping up and accepting it, while forging ahead and trying to make things better...
And he's the only one....
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Problem is you can't fire the owner and if you fire Farmer you essentially fire Pettine
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