Keep Pettine in Place at Least 1 More Year
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Quarterbacks and offense tend to get the most publicity, but the main problem facing Pettine right now and during the offseason is, "Why is your defense SO bad?"
Granted, we had an exceptional game on Sunday, and it's the kind of game that makes you wonder, "Where the hell has THAT been all year?" Now certainly nobody would expect 9 sacks a game every week, but why has our defense been so bad this year against both the run AND pass? It's easy to point to injuries, and we definitely had our share of pivotal players missing extended time. Farmer hasn't exactly stocked the cupboard with loads of talent, and our backup players haven't been able to cut the mustard. A good coach extracts the most out of what he has, but it's difficult to determine if Pettine screwed up by not doing better, or if he just couldn't do much with what he had.
It also doesn't help that Pettine doesn't have first round playmakers. Sure Shelton is playing, but has he "popped" to anybody? I've noticed Meder WAY more than I notice Shelton. Pettine probably had visions of Gilbert and Haden making life difficult for the opposition. Let's just say that vision didn't pan out.
What I would want to know if I was Haslam would be, "Just how do you plan on fixing the defense?"
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We did not go from top 10-15 defense to 2nd worse entirely because of talent.
The rotations are bad, the calls are bad, the scheme is a cluster fuk
We went from 24 to 29.....and, almost, 100% due to our pass D dropping from #1 to #24.....
And that is because Gipson and Haden were out....
Gonna start a D thread and spell it out....cause no one has shown me.....(even once)....where these assumed bad rotations, calls and schemes are to be found.....
Still waiting or that.....anyone???
We went from 24 to 29.....and, almost, 100% due to our pass D dropping from #1 to #24.....
And that is because Gipson and Haden were out....
Gonna start a D thread and spell it out....cause no one has shown me.....(even once)...1).where these assumed bad rotations, calls and schemes are to be found.....
Still waiting or that.....anyone???
Look, I don't have the time to look at screen grabs and break down particular players, but I've spelled this out multiple times with no responses as well.
First off (and I did this by hand cause I couldn't find the stats online), 2) the MOST important state on defense is points allowed. Last year we were a shade under 20, and this year we're a shade over 26. I could care less how many yards someone gives up, at the end of the day it's how you give up points. The Browns have given up a TON of points this year and it shows on the field.
3)So your argument is that we have bad players which is valid although of course we disagree. I'm not going to break it down player by player, but focus on guys in particular:4) Randy Starks has been a highly above player his whole career and fell of a cliff this season in most regards. Tramon Williams is getting embarrassed out there more often than not. Kawan Williams was on the highest rated rookie CB's and he has looked pretty bad. Gipson looked like he might be on the way to 10 million dollar a year contract money and is missing assignments. Danny Shelton was widely considered the best DT tackle prospect. Gilbert is a first round pick who hasn't played hardly. Whitner has always played above average at the safety position as well.
So we have all these guys who on paper are good football players. You can explain one or two away for sure-Williams might be in a sophomore slump or Starks may just be old. But do you see how I really start scratching my head when all these guys who are seemingly good football players come together and look like total garbage? Some players on the defense suck and I know we agree on Kruger being a dumpster fire of a player. But when you have a good corp of talent (which MANY people in the football world thought we did) and they literally are God awful how can you not look at coaching? How can you not point the finger at the fact that these guys just aren't in a good scheme or cohesive as a unit?
So yeah, I don't have specific examples but 2+2 doesn't equal four to me and it rears it ugly head at Pettine and the gang. IF (and I mean IF) the defense turns around the last four games I'd hold my breath about keeping him. I give them both credit for planning well against San Francisco, but it felt like putting lipstick on a pig. 5)So that's where I'm at and I'm pretty sure a lot of other people are too.
1) Ok....no problem....happy to respond. But, for starters, Ive put my original quote up top to show you that I specifically was talking to those who said rotations, calls and schemes are all wrong....but you've given me a list of players names in response and not made a single mention of those issues that I was addressing.....And, from the same quote, you can see I said it was on the DB's and that Id start a thread detailing that....so, hopefully you read that,.....but, since youve replied here, Im thinking not.....
2) Points allowed......we are plus one TD....which(on the other thread) I showed was coming through the air and that our DB's were giving up an additional 50 yds per game....and an additional 1 touchdown per game.....(running game had zero change statistically)
3) My argument isnt necessarily that we have bad players, per se....though part of it is that we dont have difference makers or superstar players, of which a few are required to win in this league. My argument is that our #1 defensive backfield(which was our ONLY saving grace last season) got wrecked and the team is paying for it.....but Ill address those players you mentioned too, cause I DO have the time to check and compare and I disagree with that assessment....
- Randy Starks fell off a cliff?....really?.....because I see that he has played 200 less snaps than played last year, YET he has more tackles, more stops, more assists, as many hurries and only 2 less sacks.....so, since he's played way less time, but has equal and mostly better numbers....Id say he is the same or better....and certainly hasnt fallen off any cliffs.....
- Traymon Williams is getting embarrassed....yet another fallacy and possibly the reason Pett stepped up for him this last week. He, in fact, is easily our best CB this season and his numbers are UP from last season. Making it even more impressive, is the fact that he is playing outside and the slot was his position at GB. And, after Haden went down, he had to step up YET AGAIN...to an even more difficult role as the #1 CB....and is still getting it done......With way less snaps, he has more Pass defenses, has dropped his catch rate by 13%, increased his passer rating by 15% and maintained his excellent pff rating....so, to me, he has gotten better, while playing a MUCH more difficult position....
- Gipson....you mean the guy who had a career year(his best by far) under Pettine?....that guy? Because you cant blame Coach for him having a bad year, unless you want to credit Coach for his best year ever too....it's only fair. But, in reality, lets ackowledge that Gipson blew his knee out...OK?.....and just like Benji and a zillion other players, it takes time to recover....but wait, there's more.....he also went down mid season with a concussion. And, maybe just maybe, he didnt get that big contract, held out, got hurt and just hasnt had his head in the game....all those missed assignments arent coaching, cause he knew those assignments last year...right?
- Whitner is his normal self....same player, same stats, same everything....so not sure why he's on your list....
- Shelton and Gilbert?....really?.....you gonna blame Pettine cause a couple rookies werent great from day one? Caue I can show you plenty of rookies that have stepped in and played great under this staff....Bito, Kwaun, Duke, Gabe, Crow, Kirksey, Orchard, etc......so pulling out the one guy who sucks, to me, it kinda lame....Id blame Gilbert on Gilbert(and Farmer).....
So....to me....your argument that "these players" are worse, doesnt stand up......and these guys are NOT the reason this team isnt winning.....not buying it for a second....
5) So....Im glad thats where you're at and I completely understand that others are there with you....thats the main reason I took the time to actually do the research and try to key into whats wrong....whats different this year.....what has changed....etc....instead of just going off the top of my head and guessing.....
The team has lots of problems......talent is a BIG part of that and we dont have enough.....Coaching is important and I think we can improve there selectively, but without tearing the whole thing down.....injuries to 3 out of 5 ALL-Pros has been a HUGE problem, cause when you only have a few REALLY good players and they go down, it hurts the whole team......
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Another "Mudpearl". Thanks so much.
Another "Mudpearl". Thanks so much.
Ha!...you're welcome.....
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We went from 24 to 29.....and, almost, 100% due to our pass D dropping from #1 to #24.....
And that is because Gipson and Haden were out....
Gonna start a D thread and spell it out....cause no one has shown me.....(even once)...1).where these assumed bad rotations, calls and schemes are to be found.....
Still waiting or that.....anyone???
Look, I don't have the time to look at screen grabs and break down particular players, but I've spelled this out multiple times with no responses as well.
First off (and I did this by hand cause I couldn't find the stats online), 2) the MOST important state on defense is points allowed. Last year we were a shade under 20, and this year we're a shade over 26. I could care less how many yards someone gives up, at the end of the day it's how you give up points. The Browns have given up a TON of points this year and it shows on the field.
3)So your argument is that we have bad players which is valid although of course we disagree. I'm not going to break it down player by player, but focus on guys in particular:4) Randy Starks has been a highly above player his whole career and fell of a cliff this season in most regards. Tramon Williams is getting embarrassed out there more often than not. Kawan Williams was on the highest rated rookie CB's and he has looked pretty bad. Gipson looked like he might be on the way to 10 million dollar a year contract money and is missing assignments. Danny Shelton was widely considered the best DT tackle prospect. Gilbert is a first round pick who hasn't played hardly. Whitner has always played above average at the safety position as well.
So we have all these guys who on paper are good football players. You can explain one or two away for sure-Williams might be in a sophomore slump or Starks may just be old. But do you see how I really start scratching my head when all these guys who are seemingly good football players come together and look like total garbage? Some players on the defense suck and I know we agree on Kruger being a dumpster fire of a player. But when you have a good corp of talent (which MANY people in the football world thought we did) and they literally are God awful how can you not look at coaching? How can you not point the finger at the fact that these guys just aren't in a good scheme or cohesive as a unit?
So yeah, I don't have specific examples but 2+2 doesn't equal four to me and it rears it ugly head at Pettine and the gang. IF (and I mean IF) the defense turns around the last four games I'd hold my breath about keeping him. I give them both credit for planning well against San Francisco, but it felt like putting lipstick on a pig. 5)So that's where I'm at and I'm pretty sure a lot of other people are too.
1) Ok....no problem....happy to respond. But, for starters, Ive put my original quote up top to show you that I specifically was talking to those who said rotations, calls and schemes are all wrong....but you've given me a list of players names in response and not made a single mention of those issues that I was addressing.....And, from the same quote, you can see I said it was on the DB's and that Id start a thread detailing that....so, hopefully you read that,.....but, since youve replied here, Im thinking not.....
2) Points allowed......we are plus one TD....which(on the other thread) I showed was coming through the air and that our DB's were giving up an additional 50 yds per game....and an additional 1 touchdown per game.....(running game had zero change statistically)
3) My argument isnt necessarily that we have bad players, per se....though part of it is that we dont have difference makers or superstar players, of which a few are required to win in this league. My argument is that our #1 defensive backfield(which was our ONLY saving grace last season) got wrecked and the team is paying for it.....but Ill address those players you mentioned too, cause I DO have the time to check and compare and I disagree with that assessment....
- Randy Starks fell off a cliff?....really?.....because I see that he has played 200 less snaps than played last year, YET he has more tackles, more stops, more assists, as many hurries and only 2 less sacks.....so, since he's played way less time, but has equal and mostly better numbers....Id say he is the same or better....and certainly hasnt fallen off any cliffs.....
- Traymon Williams is getting embarrassed....yet another fallacy and possibly the reason Pett stepped up for him this last week. He, in fact, is easily our best CB this season and his numbers are UP from last season. Making it even more impressive, is the fact that he is playing outside and the slot was his position at GB. And, after Haden went down, he had to step up YET AGAIN...to an even more difficult role as the #1 CB....and is still getting it done......With way less snaps, he has more Pass defenses, has dropped his catch rate by 13%, increased his passer rating by 15% and maintained his excellent pff rating....so, to me, he has gotten better, while playing a MUCH more difficult position....
- Gipson....you mean the guy who had a career year(his best by far) under Pettine?....that guy? Because you cant blame Coach for him having a bad year, unless you want to credit Coach for his best year ever too....it's only fair. But, in reality, lets ackowledge that Gipson blew his knee out...OK?.....and just like Benji and a zillion other players, it takes time to recover....but wait, there's more.....he also went down mid season with a concussion. And, maybe just maybe, he didnt get that big contract, held out, got hurt and just hasnt had his head in the game....all those missed assignments arent coaching, cause he knew those assignments last year...right?
- Whitner is his normal self....same player, same stats, same everything....so not sure why he's on your list....
- Shelton and Gilbert?....really?.....you gonna blame Pettine cause a couple rookies werent great from day one? Caue I can show you plenty of rookies that have stepped in and played great under this staff....Bito, Kwaun, Duke, Gabe, Crow, Kirksey, Orchard, etc......so pulling out the one guy who sucks, to me, it kinda lame....Id blame Gilbert on Gilbert(and Farmer).....
So....to me....your argument that "these players" are worse, doesnt stand up......and these guys are NOT the reason this team isnt winning.....not buying it for a second....
5) So....Im glad thats where you're at and I completely understand that others are there with you....thats the main reason I took the time to actually do the research and try to key into whats wrong....whats different this year.....what has changed....etc....instead of just going off the top of my head and guessing.....
The team has lots of problems......talent is a BIG part of that and we dont have enough.....Coaching is important and I think we can improve there selectively, but without tearing the whole thing down.....injuries to 3 out of 5 ALL-Pros has been a HUGE problem, cause when you only have a few REALLY good players and they go down, it hurts the whole team......
1) Ok....no problem....happy to respond. But, for starters, Ive put my original quote up top to show you that I specifically was talking to those who said rotations, calls and schemes are all wrong....but you've given me a list of players names in response and not made a single mention of those issues that I was addressing.....And, from the same quote, you can see I said it was on the DB's and that Id start a thread detailing that....so, hopefully you read that,.....but, since youve replied here, Im thinking not.....
2) Points allowed......we are plus one TD....which(on the other thread) I showed was coming through the air and that our DB's were giving up an additional 50 yds per game....and an additional 1 touchdown per game.....(running game had zero change statistically)
3) My argument isnt necessarily that we have bad players, per se....though part of it is that we dont have difference makers or superstar players, of which a few are required to win in this league. My argument is that our #1 defensive backfield(which was our ONLY saving grace last season) got wrecked and the team is paying for it.....but Ill address those players you mentioned too, cause I DO have the time to check and compare and I disagree with that assessment....
- Randy Starks fell off a cliff?....really?.....because I see that he has played 200 less snaps than played last year, YET he has more tackles, more stops, more assists, as many hurries and only 2 less sacks.....so, since he's played way less time, but has equal and mostly better numbers....Id say he is the same or better....and certainly hasnt fallen off any cliffs.....
- Traymon Williams is getting embarrassed....yet another fallacy and possibly the reason Pett stepped up for him this last week. He, in fact, is easily our best CB this season and his numbers are UP from last season. Making it even more impressive, is the fact that he is playing outside and the slot was his position at GB. And, after Haden went down, he had to step up YET AGAIN...to an even more difficult role as the #1 CB....and is still getting it done......With way less snaps, he has more Pass defenses, has dropped his catch rate by 13%, increased his passer rating by 15% and maintained his excellent pff rating....so, to me, he has gotten better, while playing a MUCH more difficult position....
- Gipson....you mean the guy who had a career year(his best by far) under Pettine?....that guy? Because you cant blame Coach for him having a bad year, unless you want to credit Coach for his best year ever too....it's only fair. But, in reality, lets ackowledge that Gipson blew his knee out...OK?.....and just like Benji and a zillion other players, it takes time to recover....but wait, there's more.....he also went down mid season with a concussion. And, maybe just maybe, he didnt get that big contract, held out, got hurt and just hasnt had his head in the game....all those missed assignments arent coaching, cause he knew those assignments last year...right?
- Whitner is his normal self....same player, same stats, same everything....so not sure why he's on your list....
- Shelton and Gilbert?....really?.....you gonna blame Pettine cause a couple rookies werent great from day one? Caue I can show you plenty of rookies that have stepped in and played great under this staff....Bito, Kwaun, Duke, Gabe, Crow, Kirksey, Orchard, etc......so pulling out the one guy who sucks, to me, it kinda lame....Id blame Gilbert on Gilbert(and Farmer).....
So....to me....your argument that "these players" are worse, doesnt stand up......and these guys are NOT the reason this team isnt winning.....not buying it for a second....
5) So....Im glad thats where you're at and I completely understand that others are there with you....thats the main reason I took the time to actually do the research and try to key into whats wrong....whats different this year.....what has changed....etc....instead of just going off the top of my head and guessing.....
The team has lots of problems......talent is a BIG part of that and we dont have enough.....Coaching is important and I think we can improve there selectively, but without tearing the whole thing down.....injuries to 3 out of 5 ALL-Pros has been a HUGE problem, cause when you only have a few REALLY good players and they go down, it hurts the whole team......
Look, I hear everything you are saying on that and I honestly do appreciate the time to look into players stats. You're not wrong that a lot of of what I'm saying is the broad strokes and stats may tell a different tale. BUT, here's the thing. We can agree (I hope) that the defense has fallen off the the cliff this year and that the defense isn't devoid of talent as you say. Football is a show me game and the game they are playing on Sundays is an absolute joke. Our defense is way, way worse than last year and that is the calling card of this regime. I wouldn't argue we need playmakers, because we do-we were both on the same page I think that Jaylon Smith is just was the doctor ordered for the draft as of today.
What I don't get you saying though is that you disagree that these players aren't playing badly like I say they are. If that's the case and the stats back that up, how come it doesn't show on Sunday? Are the holes on defense THAT huge that it makes the defense the worst in the NFL by in large? I understand we have hurt players at key positions, but that doesn't excuse what we see out there either. I just fundamentally disagree with you on this because I see good players (which you seem to think they are) playing poorly and not executing on Sundays. Honestly, the only reasonable thing I see is we are playing a lot better talent this year but still, it just doesn't add up to me. I definitely appreciate you taking the position you do, but I just strongly oppose it.
Maybe we are going around in circles on this but I literally can't get out of my head when big ben yelled "too late, make it work" and got a huge play off of it. They literally played flag football against us that day and so did the Bengals.
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Analytics or your post is meaningless emotional twaddle. It "shows on Sunday" if every player does their job. If it doesn't "show on Sunday" ---- then someone didn't complete their assignment, which "shows" in the analytics for that specific player.
This is 100% the same as blindly typing over and over again that the OL can't run-block.. when PFF consistently shows the 5OL are great at their assignment BUT the TE&FB are the worst in the league.. so when the D brings 7 and we have only 5 assignments completed, run blown up.
You assert that you see players "playing poorly and not executing" - name the player and the play in question.
Take Tramon as an example. Did you watch TV and see him running behind a WR on a long TD... and ASSUME the call was a cover zero with him on that WR? Did you rewind the feed to verify the initial drop of each DB so that you can rule out the possibility that Tramon saw someone else get beat, bailed on his own responsibility, and attempted to make a TD-saving tackle that he had zero chance to complete?
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1) Ok....no problem....happy to respond. But, for starters, Ive put my original quote up top to show you that I specifically was talking to those who said rotations, calls and schemes are all wrong....but you've given me a list of players names in response and not made a single mention of those issues that I was addressing.....And, from the same quote, you can see I said it was on the DB's and that Id start a thread detailing that....so, hopefully you read that,.....but, since youve replied here, Im thinking not.....
2) Points allowed......we are plus one TD....which(on the other thread) I showed was coming through the air and that our DB's were giving up an additional 50 yds per game....and an additional 1 touchdown per game.....(running game had zero change statistically)
3) My argument isnt necessarily that we have bad players, per se....though part of it is that we dont have difference makers or superstar players, of which a few are required to win in this league. My argument is that our #1 defensive backfield(which was our ONLY saving grace last season) got wrecked and the team is paying for it.....but Ill address those players you mentioned too, cause I DO have the time to check and compare and I disagree with that assessment....
- Randy Starks fell off a cliff?....really?.....because I see that he has played 200 less snaps than played last year, YET he has more tackles, more stops, more assists, as many hurries and only 2 less sacks.....so, since he's played way less time, but has equal and mostly better numbers....Id say he is the same or better....and certainly hasnt fallen off any cliffs.....
- Traymon Williams is getting embarrassed....yet another fallacy and possibly the reason Pett stepped up for him this last week. He, in fact, is easily our best CB this season and his numbers are UP from last season. Making it even more impressive, is the fact that he is playing outside and the slot was his position at GB. And, after Haden went down, he had to step up YET AGAIN...to an even more difficult role as the #1 CB....and is still getting it done......With way less snaps, he has more Pass defenses, has dropped his catch rate by 13%, increased his passer rating by 15% and maintained his excellent pff rating....so, to me, he has gotten better, while playing a MUCH more difficult position....
- Gipson....you mean the guy who had a career year(his best by far) under Pettine?....that guy? Because you cant blame Coach for him having a bad year, unless you want to credit Coach for his best year ever too....it's only fair. But, in reality, lets ackowledge that Gipson blew his knee out...OK?.....and just like Benji and a zillion other players, it takes time to recover....but wait, there's more.....he also went down mid season with a concussion. And, maybe just maybe, he didnt get that big contract, held out, got hurt and just hasnt had his head in the game....all those missed assignments arent coaching, cause he knew those assignments last year...right?
- Whitner is his normal self....same player, same stats, same everything....so not sure why he's on your list....
- Shelton and Gilbert?....really?.....you gonna blame Pettine cause a couple rookies werent great from day one? Caue I can show you plenty of rookies that have stepped in and played great under this staff....Bito, Kwaun, Duke, Gabe, Crow, Kirksey, Orchard, etc......so pulling out the one guy who sucks, to me, it kinda lame....Id blame Gilbert on Gilbert(and Farmer).....
So....to me....your argument that "these players" are worse, doesnt stand up......and these guys are NOT the reason this team isnt winning.....not buying it for a second....
5) So....Im glad thats where you're at and I completely understand that others are there with you....thats the main reason I took the time to actually do the research and try to key into whats wrong....whats different this year.....what has changed....etc....instead of just going off the top of my head and guessing.....
The team has lots of problems......talent is a BIG part of that and we dont have enough.....Coaching is important and I think we can improve there selectively, but without tearing the whole thing down.....injuries to 3 out of 5 ALL-Pros has been a HUGE problem, cause when you only have a few REALLY good players and they go down, it hurts the whole team......
Look, I hear everything you are saying on that and I honestly do appreciate the time to look into players stats. You're not wrong that a lot of of what I'm saying is the broad strokes and stats may tell a different tale. BUT, here's the thing. We can agree (I hope) that the defense has fallen off the the cliff this year and that the defense isn't devoid of talent as you say. Football is a show me game and the game they are playing on Sundays is an absolute joke. Our defense is way, way worse than last year and that is the calling card of this regime. I wouldn't argue we need playmakers, because we do-we were both on the same page I think that Jaylon Smith is just was the doctor ordered for the draft as of today.
What I don't get you saying though is that you disagree that these players aren't playing badly like I say they are. If that's the case and the stats back that up, how come it doesn't show on Sunday? Are the holes on defense THAT huge that it makes the defense the worst in the NFL by in large? I understand we have hurt players at key positions, but that doesn't excuse what we see out there either. I just fundamentally disagree with you on this because I see good players (which you seem to think they are) playing poorly and not executing on Sundays. Honestly, the only reasonable thing I see is we are playing a lot better talent this year but still, it just doesn't add up to me. I definitely appreciate you taking the position you do, but I just strongly oppose it.
Maybe we are going around in circles on this but I literally can't get out of my head when big ben yelled "too late, make it work" and got a huge play off of it. They literally played flag football against us that day and so did the Bengals.
1) BUT, here's the thing. We can agree (I hope) that the defense has fallen off the the cliff this year and that the defense isn't devoid of talent as you say. Our defense is way, way worse than last year
2) What I don't get you saying though is that you disagree that these players aren't playing badly like I say they are. If that's the case and the stats back that up, how come it doesn't show on Sunday?
3) I understand we have hurt players at key positions, but that doesn't excuse what we see out there either. I just fundamentally disagree with you on this because I see good players (which you seem to think they are) playing poorly and not executing on Sundays.
4) Maybe we are going around in circles on this but I literally can't get out of my head when big ben yelled "too late, make it work" and got a huge play off of it. They literally played flag football against us that day and so did the Bengals.
Yeah...we are probably spinning circles here.....I fell pretty good in my assessment, so it's gonna take more than just one guys "eye test" to convince me to change my perspective.....(seriously, no offense).....
1) I dont agree that our defense is "way way worse" this year....and have established this already....the ONLY area we got worse was in our pass defense.....the only area....and we got WAY worse there and there are 4 guys who are responsible for that and 2 of em were Pro bowl players (thats 1/2 of our pass defense) and they both went down....so 50% of your pass def dies and it makes a HUGE difference.....dont see what is so hard about that.....
2) You dont get that I dont agree that you think those players are playing worse????....huh?......I just looked at their stats and can clearly see that they aren't playing worse....and they have the same or better #'s....so right, just because you say they are worse does not mean that they are....Why not back it with something, like I did..?
3) You see good players playing poorly?......me too.....we just disagree where the blame for that goes.....Cause Ive seen a LOT of these guys have their best years ever...here....and under Pettine. So, again, if we blame the HC for a player haing a down year, why can we NOT credit coaching for all those who had career years.... or great years last season, etc etc....You want to blame the Coach for 2 rookies who didnt play well, but give no credit for the 10 that did?>.....that makes zero sense to me....
I also noted(as others have) that the DB's had a great game this week.....and Gaines had a BIG game and actually covered well(for the first time).....and you know what happened when the DB's came together for that one game?.....our best defensive effort of the year.....coverage sacks....etc......(its not a coincidence)
4) So....yeah....we're spinning our wheels and have a different perspective.....and IF they fire the whole staff(which is very possible) Ill go on record as saying these guys will play about the same.....and if and when we get our DB's back, things will improve or, at least, revert back to where we were last season......
and if Shelton & Orchard continue to grow and we add another good LB or 2, we can actually start to stop the run too.....
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Mud: I do have a problem with people [like jrb, not you] who stick to their initial "fact-free assessment" when analytics show they're wrong:
Exactly what is that pride based on?
If they've got nothing.. and someone patiently explains precisely what was missed in the initial ASSUMPTION.. they should [must!] drop the data-poor first hypothesis and adopt the second.
Or, they can continue being stupid - and objectively wrong.
In short: Just because someone Has an opinion does not mean that opinion has Merit.
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
It's pretty clear that the guys who didn't like him from the get still don't.
Unfortunately for the team the fans and probably Johnny's own development one of those guys is the head coach.
All quarterbacks (yeah yeah yeah Aaron Rodgers...) learn their trade and improve, or not, under fire.
WSS
Unfortunately for the team the fans and probably Johnny's own development one of those guys is the head coach.
Sure, Steve... also could be that any development that JM has enjoyed was made possible by his HC.
This franchise is beat-down. I don't think playing dog house and teenage crush games with players was the way to go. If Pettine operated under his own system, he would still be riding the pine as well. I've seen the guy play a lot of games with players heads and in the media, I haven't seen much coaching-up to instill confidence in his leadership, trust or in the players mindsets.
Suspending players isn't a good coaching trait, taking talent that is mis-aligned and making them productive without having to discipline them (especially in public) or make examples out of them are good coaching traits. Talent such as a Marshall Faulk and Corey Dillon thrived under better coaching and a better system. Players such as Terry Glenn crumbled once a coach made them a notch in his belt.
The decoder you asked for was in no one reputable to take an underclassman and media sensation under their wing. Hoyer had his own problems looking over his own shoulders. We waited with a microscope for Manziel to give reason to be torn down.
We are in last place. Need more?
To be convinced? A lot more...
Does Pet use the media too much to criticize/motivate? Maybe, but time after time he alludes to "not saying anything I haven't told (fill in name) to his face." Heard anyone say that is not true?
Accountability like the justifiable benching for lying is going to be seen. Would you prefer it have been done with no comment whatsoever leaving the fans and media to their own devices to assign cause? Would you actually have preferred it not be done at all?
As for coaching up... I guess that is OK to do through the media since you apparently want to see it. Are you sure you have never heard him praise a player in public? For practice? For a game? Are you sure?
I agree that JM arrived with no mentor in place. I agree that Hoyer had confidence issues. I agree that Pet mishandled the QB situation early. But in the end, he got it right including "giving fans" what they wanted, a completely ill-prepared JM. His 2014 humbling against Cinci was the best bit of coaching he's ever been given. It was his wake-up call. It set the stage for all that has come since.
And all was reset for 2015... McC... O'Connell... even Flip to some extent. Have you ever seen a support system the likes of what was installed for JM?
You are going to have to expand on your player examples for me to see any connection to JM. I don't remember Faulk having issues until his contract year when Pollian shipped him to StL. And IIRC Dillon's issues emerged after he had already posted three or four 1000-yard seasons. He posted a couple more before CIN called him a "cancer" and shipped him to NE. I don't recall much about Glenn at all.
... but Pettine seems to be very resentful of Manziel's celebrity and that's a problem.
Stopped reading right there.
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Mud: I do have a problem with people [like jrb, not you] who stick to their initial "fact-free assessment" when analytics show they're wrong:
Exactly what is that pride based on?
If they've got nothing.. and someone patiently explains precisely what was missed in the initial ASSUMPTION.. they should [must!] drop the data-poor first hypothesis and adopt the second.
Or, they can continue being stupid - and objectively wrong.
In short: Just because someone Has an opinion does not mean that opinion has Merit.
Mud: I do have a problem with people [like jrb, not you] who stick to their initial "fact-free assessment" when analytics show they're wrong:
Exactly what is that pride based on?
If they've got nothing.. and someone patiently explains precisely what was missed in the initial ASSUMPTION.. they should [must!] drop the data-poor first hypothesis and adopt the second.
Or, they can continue being stupid - and objectively wrong.
In short: Just because someone Has an opinion does not mean that opinion has Merit.
sigh, it's people like you who make this board such a crap ass place sometimes. I'm having a good discussion with someone whom I've ceded points to while arguing my own but that makes me stupid. Meanwhile you sit in your armchair troll pose thinking because you learned the word hypothesis in 8th grade biology you're smart.
Fine, here's my hypothesis: Cleveland has suffered injuries to some key positions but Pettine and O'Neil are highly to blame for the players playing poorly. Pettine was able to ride high by playing weaker competition last season and got exposed when he got against better competition for who he really is.
On the surface the low hanging fruit is the passing defense. I don't disagree that's a factor-you don't lose Joe Haden and get better more often than not. It's also true that we were the 8th ranked pass defense last year and now are 22nd this year. It's ALSO true that the rushing defense isn't much better, in fact the YPC is exactly the same as last year at 4.5 yards per carry.
So let's start then with my idea about strength of schedule. The browns in 2014 had an SOS of tied 26th, and in 2015 9th. There's nothing you can do about that of course, but Pettine/O'Neil and his defense had to actually play some big boys this season more often than not. That's just a matter of fact idea going forward with what I'm saying. Delving into what I'm talking about, I've already stated the Browns nearly give up a TD more a game than last year. In addition, the Browns have allowed at least 30 points 8 times this year. In 2014 through 13 games that occurred exactly one time in week one against the steelers.
With that in mind, let's get into the players. I'm not going to look at every position here, but let's recall who we have from 2014 to 2015:Joe Haden, dante whitner, , Craig Robertson (meh), Dansby, Kawuan Williams, Gipson (coming off injury), the Bryants (one coming off injury), Kruger (who blows but that's beside the point), Mingo (meh) and others I'm sure I'm leaving out. I point this out because there is strong talent there. Yes, that's subjective but there's a high amount of players returning in this system of the Browns who are good football players and put up the numbers to be the 9th ranked defense by rank in 2014. In addition to this we add good veterans like Starks and Williams to provide starter quality depth. We draft two good sounding draft guys to beef up the defensive line including the widely considered #1 DT prospect.
So what happens in 2015? We look objectively (your buzzword) bad and are giving up tons of more points and yards. A guy like Haden is out for a good while and Gipson and and Whitner miss 3 and 2 games respectively. Let's not forgot Gipson missed 5 games the previous year with injury which evens the stats out some in that regard. We are playing stronger competition and things just look piss poor at best. We literally have opposing QB's playing backyard football against guys who just a year ago were making plays. So where does the fault lie? Did those guys just have fluke years where they looked like an above average defense as a unit? Or, as I believe strongly, did Pettine/Oneil benefit from playing an easy schedule that didn't expose his flaws as a schemer until late last season and into this season?
I'll write one more thing about it-there's a pretty nifty tool called expected points allowed that uses advanced statistics (which I'm sure you would not understand) to determine a stronger opinion of defense. For example, it might note that while a defense gave up 30 points there were factors such as allowing a team to score while in prevent mode or after a bad offensive turnover. According to PFR, the Browns number in 2014 in that regard was +0.76 and in 2015? -91.92. That's nothing short of incredible and points to just how a defense really is. So, if you want to believe that ALL those guys who had good years before regressed THAT badly without coaching being a huge problem, then I don't know know what to say.
I hope that's enough stats for you. The funny part is Mud was making good points and I was happy to see it all. I appreciate what he does for the Board but people like you should just leave.
Edit: I meant to add this article, but it really addresses how I feel as well. It may have been noted before but talks all about the scheme and its inherent flaws. http://www.si.com/thecauldron/2015/10/21/mike-pettine-cleveland-browns-defense-problems-afc-north
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jrb,
No offense, but I here's the difference I see between what you and Mud are doing...
You are using gross, macro stats, newly and most recently PFR's, and inferring it can't be all players, it has to be coaching. You even included Haden as one of the constants between the two seasons.
Mud is delving into player numbers showing it is players (and which players) and that coaching has been making adjustments to minimize negative player impacts.
BTW... the impact of Strength of Schedule is not well captured by stating the ranking. The use of it as a predictor, if any, is in the winning percentage behind it. And the jump from 2014's 0.465 to 2015's 0.543 is huge.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
jrb,
No offense, but I here's the difference I see between what you and Mud are doing...
You are using gross, macro stats, newly and most recently PFR's, and inferring it can't be all players, it has to be coaching. You even included Haden as one of the constants between the two seasons.
Mud is delving into player numbers showing it is players (and which players) and that coaching has been making adjustments to minimize negative player impacts.
BTW... the impact of Strength of Schedule is not well captured by stating the ranking. The use of it as a predictor, if any, is in the winning percentage behind it. And the jump from 2014's 0.465 to 2015's 0.543 is huge.
jrb,
No offense, but I here's the difference I see between what you and Mud are doing...
You are using gross, macro stats, newly and most recently PFR's, and inferring it can't be all players, it has to be coaching. You even included Haden as one of the constants between the two seasons.
Mud is delving into player numbers showing it is players (and which players) and that coaching has been making adjustments to minimize negative player impacts.
BTW... the impact of Strength of Schedule is not well captured by stating the ranking. The use of it as a predictor, if any, is in the winning percentage behind it. And the jump from 2014's 0.465 to 2015's 0.543 is huge.
Yep-I respect everything he is saying and really get what he's going for, I just disagree with him fundamentally. Honestly and not to take credit from the article I linked but that really defines the "eye-test" material I'm talking about better than I did. I see good players making bad decision based on scheme and not being put in a position of strength. Mud sees it as bad players which ya know what honestly could be true. I'd be baffled if personnel moves didn't occur this offseason so one of our opinions will prove to have more merit in the coming years. Hell, I'd love to be wrong though if it meant the dumpster fire of a defense is improved.
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"Sure, Steve... also could be that any development that JM has enjoyed was made possible by his HC. "
Oh anything is possible since none of us really know anything...
But let me ask you this: does Mike Pettine seem like a nurturing kind of guy? You know somebody that's been making the players better under his tutelage? Or does he seem like a guy the doesn't really like rookies and especially doesn't like Johnny and prefers to go with guys who already kind of know their position?
Hasn't seemed to have been effective if that's been his approach to the entire team.
What's your own feeling?
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
"Sure, Steve... also could be that any development that JM has enjoyed was made possible by his HC. "
Oh anything is possible since none of us really know anything...
But let me ask you this: does Mike Pettine seem like a nurturing kind of guy? You know somebody that's been making the players better under his tutelage? Or does he seem like a guy the doesn't really like rookies and especially doesn't like Johnny and prefers to go with guys who already kind of know their position?
Hasn't seemed to have been effective if that's been his approach to the entire team.
What's your own feeling?
WSS
"Sure, Steve... also could be that any development that JM has enjoyed was made possible by his HC. "
Oh anything is possible since none of us really know anything...
But let me ask you this: does Mike Pettine seem like a nurturing kind of guy? You know somebody that's been making the players better under his tutelage? Or does he seem like a guy the doesn't really like rookies and especially doesn't like Johnny and prefers to go with guys who already kind of know their position?
Hasn't seemed to have been effective if that's been his approach to the entire team.
What's your own feeling?
WSS
Pet does not come across to Me as a coach who makes everyone around him better... I'm just not seeing it.
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I'm for keepimg pettine IF he plays johnny for real and doesn't put him in the timeout chair every other game for a journeyman
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Well almost time for another one of their come to Jesus retreats, so we'll see how it goes shortly after the season ends.
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If Pettine returns next year, expect even more detereoration. Fire that fat ass.
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Wish I'd been able to divine how far in the past your past tense was... especially since it's demonstrably false.
Last year:
- Pet established the principle of earning playing time by how you practice... a top pick is still riding a lot of pine as a result... when he is active.
- Last year we cut our prize RB because he did not play well with others.
- Last year we suspended a rookie QB and a vet WR for being late to meetings.
Need more?
Your turn... please list some of the Flip-flops you see.
Also would you please decode this for me?
This franchise is beat-down. I don't think playing dog house and teenage crush games with players was the way to go. If Pettine operated under his own system, he would still be riding the pine as well. I've seen the guy play a lot of games with players heads and in the media, I haven't seen much coaching-up to instill confidence in his leadership, trust or in the players mindsets.
Suspending players isn't a good coaching trait, taking talent that is mis-aligned and making them productive without having to discipline them (especially in public) or make examples out of them are good coaching traits. Talent such as a Marshall Faulk and Corey Dillon thrived under better coaching and a better system. Players such as Terry Glenn crumbled once a coach made them a notch in his belt.
The decoder you asked for was in no one reputable to take an underclassman and media sensation under their wing. Hoyer had his own problems looking over his own shoulders. We waited with a microscope for Manziel to give reason to be torn down. Everyone in the stands knew it was coming, the difference is that one person had the responsibility for his staff to not wait for it to happen but get the kid focused and ready for business. To make him an example at the end of year #2 was a task anyone could have done. If I were Haslem, I would have expected more from a management making millions in a multi-million dollar establishment and multi-Billion dollar entity. Pettine did the task of a Pee Wee coach and you guys want to sit here and pat him on the back for it.
We are in last place. Need more?
This franchise is beat-down. I don't think playing dog house and teenage crush games with players was the way to go. If Pettine operated under his own system, he would still be riding the pine as well. I've seen the guy play a lot of games with players heads and in the media, I haven't seen much coaching-up to instill confidence in his leadership, trust or in the players mindsets.
Suspending players isn't a good coaching trait, taking talent that is mis-aligned and making them productive without having to discipline them (especially in public) or make examples out of them are good coaching traits. Talent such as a Marshall Faulk and Corey Dillon thrived under better coaching and a better system. Players such as Terry Glenn crumbled once a coach made them a notch in his belt.
The decoder you asked for was in no one reputable to take an underclassman and media sensation under their wing. Hoyer had his own problems looking over his own shoulders. We waited with a microscope for Manziel to give reason to be torn down. Everyone in the stands knew it was coming, the difference is that one person had the responsibility for his staff to not wait for it to happen but get the kid focused and ready for business. To make him an example at the end of year #2 was a task anyone could have done. If I were Haslem, I would have expected more from a management making millions in a multi-million dollar establishment and multi-Billion dollar entity. Pettine did the task of a Pee Wee coach and you guys want to sit here and pat him on the back for it.
We are in last place. Need more?
.
Thatta boy Atenears! More? We were ranked 32nd at running the ball heading into week 13. Not to be outdone, our defense was ranked 32nd and points allowed. There's phases of football but I don't want to leave out Special Education, I mean Special Teams. We had a ton of penalties all year and we had only 2 wins heading into our matchup with the 32nd ranked offense. Should I argue with Bill Parcells that we aren't what our record says we are? He'd love to get interrupted with - that's not what PFF says.
This coaching staff was hand selected by Pettine and he and his staff had tons of say/input on the draft.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
This franchise is beat-down. I don't think playing dog house and teenage crush games with players was the way to go. If Pettine operated under his own system, he would still be riding the pine as well. I've seen the guy play a lot of games with players heads and in the media, I haven't seen much coaching-up to instill confidence in his leadership, trust or in the players mindsets.
Suspending players isn't a good coaching trait, taking talent that is mis-aligned and making them productive without having to discipline them (especially in public) or make examples out of them are good coaching traits. Talent such as a Marshall Faulk and Corey Dillon thrived under better coaching and a better system. Players such as Terry Glenn crumbled once a coach made them a notch in his belt.
The decoder you asked for was in no one reputable to take an underclassman and media sensation under their wing. Hoyer had his own problems looking over his own shoulders. We waited with a microscope for Manziel to give reason to be torn down. Everyone in the stands knew it was coming, the difference is that one person had the responsibility for his staff to not wait for it to happen but get the kid focused and ready for business. To make him an example at the end of year #2 was a task anyone could have done. If I were Haslem, I would have expected more from a management making millions in a multi-million dollar establishment and multi-Billion dollar entity. Pettine did the task of a Pee Wee coach and you guys want to sit here and pat him on the back for it.
We are in last place. Need more?
.
Thatta boy Atenears! More? We were ranked 32nd at running the ball heading into week 13. Not to be outdone, our defense was ranked 32nd and points allowed. There's phases of football but I don't want to leave out Special Education, I mean Special Teams. We had a ton of penalties all year and we had only 2 wins heading into our matchup with the 32nd ranked offense. Should I argue with Bill Parcells that we aren't what our record says we are? He'd love to get interrupted with - that's not what PFF says.
This coaching staff was hand selected by Pettine and he and his staff had tons of say/input on the draft.
.
Thatta boy Atenears! More? We were ranked 32nd at running the ball heading into week 13. Not to be outdone, our defense was ranked 32nd and points allowed. There's phases of football but I don't want to leave out Special Education, I mean Special Teams. We had a ton of penalties all year and we had only 2 wins heading into our matchup with the 32nd ranked offense. Should I argue with Bill Parcells that we aren't what our record says we are? He'd love to get interrupted with - that's not what PFF says.
This coaching staff was hand selected by Pettine and he and his staff had tons of say/input on the draft.
Well said-even our best unit at the start of the year in ST is getting embarrassed out there now.
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