Kruger Knows What You're Feeling Mario
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Underachieving pro-athletes deflecting blame
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Then why start a thread bitching about Kruger.......and Rexy.....and Williams....
Then ignore every single fact presented.
Honestly, Flugel.....how can I have a "football" discussion, when you ignore the "football" part....
Have fun with your pointless rants, like Mic, Im out.
I haven't ignored your football parts - I just don't agree with you. DEs don't cover people downfield out of a 3 point stance so I disagree that Buffalo runs a 4-3. I even gave you the names of their 4 LBers. All you did was look a depth chart online that listed Mario as a DE and drew your conclusion. How often have you seen a guy in a 3 point stance covering people downfield or finding reason to complain about doing so?
What facts are you presenting about a defensive scheme working in Cleveland that I'm ignoring? Examples?
Who's player faster and more instinctive this year? Sounds like you ought to have a bunch of these....
Give me examples of great tackling, shedding blocks and swarming opposing running games at the point of attack.
Give me examples of us sacking/hurrying opposing passers better than we did in 2014.
Give me a reason why I should be happy that we allowed over 30 points in our last 5 consecutive losses.
We're debating progress vrs regression.
What players in the second year of Pettine's defense are better than they were last year?
Robertson?
Gipson?
Haden prior to injury?
K'Wuan Williams?
Whitner?
Kruger?
Kirksey?
Hughes?
Desir?
Poyer?
D. Bryant?
Understanding all that, I also mentioned where we ranked statistically in many areas defensively as well as point allowed.
I'm sorry but nothing is reflecting this defense is going in the right direction prior to today's game.
I haven't ignored your football parts - I just don't agree with you. DEs don't cover people downfield out of a 3 point stance so I disagree that Buffalo runs a 4-3. I even gave you the names of their 4 LBers. All you did was look a depth chart online that listed Mario as a DE and drew your conclusion. How often have you seen a guy in a 3 point stance covering people downfield or finding reason to complain about doing so?
"The Bills’ defense will undergo a significant change under Ryan and new defensive coordinator Dennis Thurman. Schwartz employed a base 4-3 look that called for Williams and Hughes to function almost exclusively as linemen. Ryan uses a 3-4 base that calls for Williams and Hughes to work as outside linebackers, although there also will be situations where they play on the line and are part of a good deal of mixing and matching that goes on within one of the more multiple schemes in the league.
Williams got a good taste of this before with the Bills, in 2013, when Ryan coaching disciple Mike Pettine ran the defense. And Williams excelled then as well, finishing with 13 sacks and being selected to the Pro Bowl (although the Bills did struggle far more against the run than they did last year).
Still, Williams appeared to be more comfortable and natural in a three-point stance and doing the things that a lineman does as opposed to dropping into coverage more frequently as an outside linebacker is asked to do."
http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/05/23/mario-williams-preparing-for-another-adjustment/
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Tour and Mud think they are the guru's of football, while neither one is. Don't disagree with them, lol.
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Tour and Mud think they are the guru's of football, while neither one is. Don't disagree with them, lol.
Tour and Mud think they are the guru's of football, while neither one is. Don't disagree with them, lol.
and you've become the trump of football.
blowhardbrownsfan.
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Tour and Mud think they are the guru's of football, while neither one is. Don't disagree with them, lol.
and you've become the trump of football.
blowhardbrownsfan.
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I haven't ignored your football parts - I just don't agree with you. DEs don't cover people downfield out of a 3 point stance so I disagree that Buffalo runs a 4-3. I even gave you the names of their 4 LBers. All you did was look a depth chart online that listed Mario as a DE and drew your conclusion. How often have you seen a guy in a 3 point stance covering people downfield or finding reason to complain about doing so?
"The Bills’ defense will undergo a significant change under Ryan and new defensive coordinator Dennis Thurman. Schwartz employed a base 4-3 look that called for Williams and Hughes to function almost exclusively as linemen. Ryan uses a 3-4 base that calls for Williams and Hughes to work as outside linebackers, although there also will be situations where they play on the line and are part of a good deal of mixing and matching that goes on within one of the more multiple schemes in the league.
Williams got a good taste of this before with the Bills, in 2013, when Ryan coaching disciple Mike Pettine ran the defense. And Williams excelled then as well, finishing with 13 sacks and being selected to the Pro Bowl (although the Bills did struggle far more against the run than they did last year).
Still, Williams appeared to be more comfortable and natural in a three-point stance and doing the things that a lineman does as opposed to dropping into coverage more frequently as an outside linebacker is asked to do."
http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/05/23/mario-williams-preparing-for-another-adjustment/
"The Bills’ defense will undergo a significant change under Ryan and new defensive coordinator Dennis Thurman. Schwartz employed a base 4-3 look that called for Williams and Hughes to function almost exclusively as linemen. Ryan uses a 3-4 base that calls for Williams and Hughes to work as outside linebackers, although there also will be situations where they play on the line and are part of a good deal of mixing and matching that goes on within one of the more multiple schemes in the league.
Williams got a good taste of this before with the Bills, in 2013, when Ryan coaching disciple Mike Pettine ran the defense. And Williams excelled then as well, finishing with 13 sacks and being selected to the Pro Bowl (although the Bills did struggle far more against the run than they did last year).
Still, Williams appeared to be more comfortable and natural in a three-point stance and doing the things that a lineman does as opposed to dropping into coverage more frequently as an outside linebacker is asked to do."
http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/05/23/mario-williams-preparing-for-another-adjustment/
But both of you are dismissing what NFL Head Coach first hired him to run HIS defense. Hence, I've always mentioned we have Rex Ryan's defense with Pettine Jr's wrinkles and Pettine Sr's gray hairs. Thurman varying a front for Ryan is also a wrinkle while we cover the pass just like Buffalo in 2015.
Neither Rex or Pett have 2105 defenses that have exceeded disappointment but I will take note again there's a hybrid front variation going on. Now back to your enormous list of excuses and why 3-16 football is everybody's fault but Pettine's including the popcorn vendors.
I never did get a list of players in their 2nd seasons in Pettine's defense showing improvement. You're too busy working your tail off about 1 hybrid front variation rather than understanding why there's a bigger picture disagreement about this defense. I've also asked for examples I never received in this discussion so I reminded why our stats and points allowed were reflecting our record. I see why you refrain from looking at how many points we allowed in our last 6 losses - because giving up over 30 points a game that frequently isn't going to win you a lot of matchups.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Tour's quote supported your position, Flugs.
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I don't know why people don't understand this. If we fire Pettine this franchise goes into the black hole of shit football play cause not only will we not get good coaches, the only players we're gonna get are lower tier players trying to make a name or older players no one else wants to give that last contract to. This will be shit. Yes, more shit than it already is if that's conceivable. That comment from Bosa the other week is imo the beginning of a list of talented players that will not just salt the org but also the city so that it makes 100% sure no one here will want anything to do with them. Does the word pariah cover this?
You think we have good coaching going on? Look at the numbers, look at the trend, look at the only teams we've beaten.
I heard the same stuff a few years and then I read and heard Bruce Arians say he was disappointed we didn't think he was worthy of an interview. Where's Arizona heading this year? Does that reflect a good group of coaches with players buying into their philosophy and teachings?
You think we have good coaching going on? Look at the numbers, look at the trend, look at the only teams we've beaten.
I heard the same stuff a few years and then I read and heard Bruce Arians say he was disappointed we didn't think he was worthy of an interview. Where's Arizona heading this year? Does that reflect a good group of coaches with players buying into their philosophy and teachings?
I"m not sure what kind of coachng we have. But for better or worse we all "should" have known that when they fired Chud after 1 year and no one ws hopping into our laps, that this was gonna be a project with the next coach. That simple. If we want to be begging every year for the next CFL "up and coming" genius.....sure lets get rid of pet
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I'm tired of seeing Kruger lose contain on a QB and have the QB not even sprinting to get away from him.
Seriously, not even Kaepernick, Wilson or Newton, guys like Joe Flacco and Andy Dalton are just strolling away from him on a rollout. He has no closing speed.
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It's his angles, they suck. He's lost too much leverage going around the corner. Now yesterday at least in the 1st quarter, I saw him making Wilson get rid of the ball quick. He was finally utilizing a power rip instead of this kick step followed by a slap and swim that progressed beyond aggravating probably by the end of 2013.
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"The Bills’ defense will undergo a significant change under Ryan and new defensive coordinator Dennis Thurman. Schwartz employed a base 4-3 look that called for Williams and Hughes to function almost exclusively as linemen. Ryan uses a 3-4 base that calls for Williams and Hughes to work as outside linebackers, although there also will be situations where they play on the line and are part of a good deal of mixing and matching that goes on within one of the more multiple schemes in the league.
Williams got a good taste of this before with the Bills, in 2013, when Ryan coaching disciple Mike Pettine ran the defense. And Williams excelled then as well, finishing with 13 sacks and being selected to the Pro Bowl (although the Bills did struggle far more against the run than they did last year).
Still, Williams appeared to be more comfortable and natural in a three-point stance and doing the things that a lineman does as opposed to dropping into coverage more frequently as an outside linebacker is asked to do."
http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/05/23/mario-williams-preparing-for-another-adjustment/
But both of you are dismissing what NFL Head Coach first hired him to run HIS defense. Hence, I've always mentioned we have Rex Ryan's defense with Pettine Jr's wrinkles and Pettine Sr's gray hairs. Thurman varying a front for Ryan is also a wrinkle while we cover the pass just like Buffalo in 2015.
Neither Rex or Pett have 2105 defenses that have exceeded disappointment but I will take note again there's a hybrid front variation going on. Now back to your enormous list of excuses and why 3-16 football is everybody's fault but Pettine's including the popcorn vendors.
I never did get a list of players in their 2nd seasons in Pettine's defense showing improvement. You're too busy working your tail off about 1 hybrid front variation rather than understanding why there's a bigger picture disagreement about this defense. I've also asked for examples I never received in this discussion so I reminded why our stats and points allowed were reflecting our record. I see why you refrain from looking at how many points we allowed in our last 6 losses - because giving up over 30 points a game that frequently isn't going to win you a lot of matchups.
But both of you are dismissing what NFL Head Coach first hired him to run HIS defense. Hence, I've always mentioned we have Rex Ryan's defense with Pettine Jr's wrinkles and Pettine Sr's gray hairs. Thurman varying a front for Ryan is also a wrinkle while we cover the pass just like Buffalo in 2015.
Neither Rex or Pett have 2105 defenses that have exceeded disappointment but I will take note again there's a hybrid front variation going on. Now back to your enormous list of excuses and why 3-16 football is everybody's fault but Pettine's including the popcorn vendors.
I never did get a list of players in their 2nd seasons in Pettine's defense showing improvement.
First, Mud addressed the improved list a week or so ago. It also listed players who have improved this season and players who improved under Pet last year, but have either failed to sustain or build upon their 2014 showing... and why. It was some really good work... you should find it... read it...
Second, are you claiming that our 2015 defense is no different from the one Ryan ran in Baltimore when Pet was an assistant?
Tour's quote supported your position, Flugs.
Pray tell how, since the article was about standing Williams up an increased percentage of the time.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Well, Flug is arguing Rex runs a 3-4. Your article states Rex runs a 3-4. I'm pretty sure Flug's been trying to make the case that Mario's been standing up a lot.
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I see and stand corrected... but "a lot", as Mud pointed out, was 20 times through week 14... far more than Mario under Pet in 2013.
I think the point I was trying to make was the intent in BUF was to run a 3-4, but Mario has been used more as a DE... same as Kruger.
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tbh there's absolutely no reason why Buffalo isn't running a base 4-3 almost exclusively. They have good LB'ers and Hughes/Williams should be stopping the run and rushing the passer....and that's IT. A shallow zone every now and then is fine.
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Well....I still cant compare Buff to Cleve......and the biggest difference between Buffalo and Cleveland is....
Buffalo went from 54 sacks down to 20(thats 3.5 per game down to 1.4 per game).....and the players are bitching......
Cleve went from 31 sacks down to 28(with 2 games to go)(so thats 1.9 per game UP to 2.0 per game)...
So...the OP wants you to believe we have gotten worse at sacks(like Buffalo), which isnt true....
The Browns(as a team) have technically IMPROVED, this year, at sacking the QB...and the ONLY decrease on the entire team is Kruger.....
DL has more sacks.....DB's have more sacks.....OLB's(except Kruger) have more sacks....& MLB's have the same....
So....Buffalo = 60% DECREASE......Browns = 3% increase.....but they are the same,,,,,
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The Browns have seen the fourth fewest pass attempts [only 453] while the Bills have seen 534, good for 9th most.
So, for the Browns to have more sacks than the Bills is actually a pretty significant uptick in sacks per pass attempted against the defense [28/453 or 6.2% for CLE vs 20/534 or 3.75% for BUF], which I'd argue is a better metric for comparison than raw sack count.
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My point was simply based upon the OP saying the dramatic down tick in Buffalo is what has happened here.....
and it's nowhere close....but thanks for the added stat...cause its something I didnt notice, but helps out the argument that we are no where near comparable to whats happened in Buffalo.....
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By way of comparison, in 2014 we had 587 passes attempted against all season.. and accumulated 31 sacks, for a 5.3% clip. So, Cleveland is actually getting to the QB better this year as compared to last.
FYI: Last year Bills had 559 passes attempted against and 54 sacks, for 9.66% clip. That's a pretty big dropoff up north..
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
or....another way to slice those sack #'s is to look at the team w/o Kruger...
2014.....the "Browns" (less Kruger) had 20 sacks in 16 games.....(1.25 per game)
2015.....the "Browns" (less Kruger) have 25 sacks in 14 games...(1.8 per game)....so an increase of 1/2 sack per game
So...all that terrible Coaching has made Kruger worse and the rest of the team better.....hmmmmm
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Not sure that's entirely fair, but it may be the best we can come up with..
I'd only take out the percentage of Kruger's sacks that were accumulated due to Kruger winning the 1:1 battle. If he is blocked but still gets the sack [eg because the QB rolled into him without looking, or the coverage downfield was good enough that Kruger pushed the guy back into the QB] that's something that any other player could get as well, and should be included back into "The Browns" tally.
This gets into the "replacement player at the position" vs "The special-ness of Kruger" debate. If Haden locks down AJ Green [yeah, I may be living in the past] and Dalton only has eyes for Green.. is that sack on Kruger or thanks to Haden?
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown
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